Since the stock 57-59 Ford cars used a rubber pad/U shaped strap setup to secure the transmission to the crossmember, wondering what some of you guys with C4/6 autos, or a Toploader 4 speed, to mount the trans to the crossmember. I hope to be installing my Mock Up FE engine and 4 speed Toploader into my 59 2 door sedan over the holidays. I want to see if any modifications will be needed to my stock clutch linkage. Since I already have a new set of the FPA headers designed specifically for a FE in a 57-59 car , which route the pipes over top of the crossmember, I would prefer to not have to do a lot of cutting to the crossmember, if possible.
Also, since my Toploader has the speedometer hole on the passenger side of the tailhousing, I assume that my stock speedo cable from the original automatic will be too short to reach. Anybody know how or where to obtain a longer cable that will fit? Thanks.
Check Lynn's thread in the General Tech section on speedometers.....there are cable and gear issues being addressed there that may be of interest to you.
Your "mock-up FE engine"...did you pick up a plastic P AYR block?
I have a 24" Toploader on my FE. I am running FPA headers. I had stock manifolds and stock z-bar linkage. I had to move the pivot ball on the engine side bracket about 1" to the rear though to get it to work. I also had to make a bracket to bolt the rear motor mount (transmission mount) to the cross member. When I installed my FPA headers they would not clear the z-bar so I went with a hydraulic clutch actuation system. I modified a 65 Mustang set up from Mcleod. Back in the day I bolted in an FE/T10 using factory parts, so I know there is a way to do that, finding the right combination of parts is an issue now. I went to the Ford dealer back then and bought every '58 part that was needed to bolt an FE in my '57 with all Ford parts.
I made a bracket out of 1" flat bar and 1" square tubing spacers to replace the transmission U bracket. I didn't cut the crossmember at all.
The stock speedo cable is too short. I bought an 84" (if I remember right) on eBay that is plenty long enough. You need to
make sure you get RH drive speedo gears.
My drive shaft works but it is too short for comfort with the 24" Toploader. Let me know how I can help with pictures or whatever. I have been up and down this road a few times.
The best way to do this is get a Galaxie output shaft and tailhousing.
They will put the shifter and mount in the correct positions.
You can then use the 59 mount, a 61 up 4sp add on hump, a shorter drive shaft and
your old speedo cable.
Sounds like you have a Mustang trans which will put the shifter too far back, into the seat.
Goodluck Rory,
Ron.
Rich, no my mock up engine is a complete 390 long block I had laying around in the garage. A little heavy and bulky, but despite the car being freshly painted, I elected to remove the front clip, so I have lots of working room to play around with the clutch linkage, headers etc.
Lynn, which model of FPA headers do you have? The short version that is specifically made for 57-59 Fords or the longer Tri Y headers that are actually built to fit 67-70 Mustangs/Cougars? I am determined to retain the mechanical clutch linkage, and will make modifications as required. I would be interested in any photos that you could post, that show what you did for the trans mount.
Ron, my Toploader is originally from a 66 Fairlane, which has 5 shifter mounting holes, the rear located Mustang location, and the forward Fairlane position. Luckily, the Hurst Super Shifter 3 I have has a mounting plate, and long enough rods to work in either position. It looks like the forward Fairlane location should work with the stock bench seat. Since I am trying to make use of a bunch of parts that have been laying around the garage for years, I plan to use the trans and shifter I have on hand. I know the Super Shifter will require a pretty big hole to fit the tunnel, but I can live with that. As long as I can find a longer speedo cable, I should be able to make my trans work. Time should tell.
I originally tried the Tri Y headers.... they terminated about 3" from the crossmember basically centered with it. No way to make a smooth exhaust transistion over the stock crossmember. I now have the shorty style designed for the car. I will take a couple of pictures later today. I have Comp Plus shifter from an early Corvette. It fits well and has a removable shifter handle. The adapter is from a '70's Torino and is a Ford part. The shifter requires a very small hole in the floor and puts the shifter at hand, albeit close to the seat. A 25 1/2" Toploader (or a 27") would put the speedometer drive in the LH '57 location and in my case my driveshaft fit would be perfect. This is the speedo cable, 82", that I used. What rear gear do you have?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/60-61-62-FORD-GALAXIE-MERCURY-SPEEDOMETER-CABLE-/230992925978?fits=Year%3A1961%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item35c840551a:m:mH29by6G9WZGgbKB9yAefiA&vxp=mtr
Ok, here are the pictures. the first three are of the transmission mount "clamp". The flat bar is 1 3/8" x 3/16' thick. the square spacers are 1" x 1" x 1/8".
After looking again it does look like the Z-bar may fit. I had to move the ball about 1" closer to the firewall, see picture.
I may have to do more than 1 post...
Picture 2
Picture 3, a sketch really...
Picture 4, header clearance for z-bar engine side pivot.
Z bar engine side pivot modification.
Thanks for the photos Lynn, I now understand what you were describing. I was thinking about somehow using a later style rubber trans mount, your solution looks pretty sturdy, and fairly easy to duplicate.
Looking at you engine side Z bar bracket, I have to assume that bracket is from a Y Block? It is much bulkier than factory FE bracket that I have, which is from a 58.I also bolted up an engine side bracket I had laying around from a 73-76 Ford PU, which clears the header tubes by almost 2"s, but moves the pivot ball too far back, but can be modified as required. My 59 came with a 332 FE and 2 speed FordOMatic, luckily I have another 59 parts car out back, which still has its 223 6 cyl and 3 speed manual in place, so I swapped the clutch & brake pedals into my 59, and I was able to purchase the Z bar, engine side bracket, and lower linkage, from a fellow who was parting out a 58 Ranch Wagon with a 352 & 3 speed manual. I am using either a Lakewood scattershield or a later factory bellhousing, so I may have some mix & matching, and fabbing to get it to all work. I will report on my progress. Thanks.
Honestly I don't know what that bracket is from, I bought it on eBay with a bunch of z-bar stuff. The issue is that the distance from the face of the block mounting surface to the center of the pivot must match the frame side bracket. I did buy the right parts from Ford in 1966 and they fit. We all know the correct factory parts will work the issue now is finding the right stuff.
My transmission bracket "design" allows you to compress the rubber as much as you want by changing the spacer height. I measured the depth of the original bracket and tried to duplicate it. My bellhousing is a late model Mustang. I have a spare '64 narrow pattern bellhousing as well... I have spent several years "studying" and buying stuff to get to this point. My goal has always been to use Ford parts with no modifications to bolt everything together. Still "collecting" parts.....
I would love to see pics of the '58 332 z-bar parts.
Lynn I will try to post a few shots of the 58 & 59 clutch linkage in the next week or 2. Unlike a 57, the 58 & 59 Z bar uses a solid lower rod, the adjustment is done at the top, from under the hood. The 58 & 59 have threads at the end of the rod that goes from the clutch pedal to the Z bar. The Z bar has a pivoting clevis that the upper rod goes thru, with a nut on either side of the clevis.
When my 58 FE clutch linkage stuff arrived, I was suprised to find the FE Z bar virtually identical to the 6 cylinder Z bar I removed from my 59 parts car. Width, lever length and position were the same, the only differance was that on the 6 cylinder lower lever, was that the pin for the lower clutch rod points towards the engine, while the FE unit, it points towards the drivers side. According to my 59 parts catalog, the 6 cyl. and Y block Z bar have the same part number, the FE has a different number, but other than the lower pin orientation, I see no visual difference. Like a 57, the Z bar pivots used split bronze bushings in the tube, unlike plastic pivot balls as used in the later Fords.
Well, I installed the dummy FE engine into my 59 2 door sedan yesterday, along with the Toploader 4 speed and FPA headers. Unlike 57s (and 58s), the 59 engine mounts use a single lower stud, rather than 2 studs, naturally the mount brackets on the round crossmember also have a single slot per side. One of the first things that I noticed, was that I will either need to elongate the bottom of the slots on the frame brackets, or shim the mounts up a bit. My new jobber motor mounts have the studs right against the bottom of the slots, yet the mounts themselves are still about 1/4" each from sitting all the way down against the frame brackets. Maybe my new jobber mounts are not dimensionally identical to factory,or prehaps there is some minor differance between mounts for a FE, Y Block, and 6 cyl. Another situation is that the C5TE FE pickup truck bellhousing seems to have the clutch fork in a bit lower position. To clear the FPA headers, I had to relocate the lower lever of the Z bar to the left side about 1 1/4", however, the levers pin for the lower clutch rod is about 3/4" higher up than the fork in the bellhousing. Does anbody know if the truck bellhousing have a different fork orientation than a C6OA car bellhousing, or a stock 58-59 bellhousing? I supose that I could just make the Z bar lever a bit longer, but I am concerned that the reduced leverage may make the clutch pedal feel too stiff. Not everyting was problomatic, the FPA headers fit very nicely, a bit close to the passenger side frame rail, but no actual contact. Adequate clearance around the steering box and upper control arms, the stock full sized 65 and newer starter can be installed without unbolting the R side header. I have the front clip off the car, and installed the engine, bellhousing, and Toploader all bolted together, and with the left side header bolted up.It was a bit tight, but all fit in without any scratches to the firewall. The next step will be to get a trans mount dealt with, and cutting a hole for the Hurst Super Shifter. Then try to get the rest of the clutch linkage figured out. But at least some progress is being made.Also, after cleaning up the trans crossmember, pretty obvious that quality control and robotic welding were not in place in the 50s! Looked like something fabbed up in a Grade 8 welding class.
I have my suspicions about motor mounts. My memory is that the motor mounts were different between the Y blocks and the FE's based on what I bought in 1965 from Ford for my '57 FE swap then. That is not what the parts book I have says however. Then there are those that say you must turn the Y block motor mounts around for an FE, that won't work on my car. My engine does sit back about 1/4" farther back than I wish it did and my FPA headers are VERY close to the frame on the passenger side. I also think one of my motor mounts has the rubber separating from the steel. I would slot the top of the motor mounts, before I would mess with the frame.
I have a passenger car "Z" bellhousing and I also have a narrow pattern early car one. My understanding is that a 4 spd Toploader will not work with a "T" truck bellhousing, it is too deep. I have a '59 Z bar that worked as is when I was using mechanical clutch linkage. I will be glad to measure or take pics of anything if it helps
Lynn, from what I understand, the FE truck bellhousing is a bit deeper than the car bellhousing, but the Toploader I am using is a small block unit (HEH-BV, from a 66 Fairlane 289), the small blocktrans is supposed to be identical to a 390Fairlane transmission, except that the small block input shaft is longer than a FE unit. The splined area is identical, the added length is only on the small tip, where it goes into the pilot bushing. Some guys say that to use the SB trans behind a FE engine, the extra length can be trimmed, or , if a T bellhousing is used, the SB input will be fine as is. I do have a Lakewood scattershield from my 427 powered drag car, that I had planned on using, but the extra wide flange of the Lakewood housing looks like it would have major interference with the FPA headers.
I would be interested in any photos of your 59 FE Z bar, and perhaps the length of the lever that connects the Zbar to the clutch fork rod, and how far the lever is from the inner end of the tube. In addition to the 58 FE Z bar I have, I also have a Z bar that I removed from my 59 Custom 300 parts car. That car is a 223 6 cylinder/3 speed manual, and suprisingly, the 58 FE and 59 6 cyl. Z bars are identical, other that the orientation of the inside lever lower pin. The 6 cyl Z bar has the pin pointing inward, towards the engine, the 58 FE Z bar is opposite, pointing to the frame. So I would be suprised if the 59 FE Z bar is different, but you never can tell!
As for the motor mounts, since my 59 is a factory 332 FE car, I still have the original motor mounts, however they are (understantbly) in poor condition, but when I compared the old mounts to the new, height wise at least, the new mounts were about 1/4" taller, which I figured was due to 55 years of service on the old mounts. Like the motor mounts on my 3 old 57 Y block cars, the open end of the mounts "C" shape are facing the firewall, as the stock 59 mounts did. I am considering just installing a shim between the frame mount and motor mount, as it seems that lowering the engine will put the passenger side FPA header even closer to the frame. As it is, I have maybe 1/4" between the headers ball end flange and the frame. I have yet to trial fit the supplied exhaust connector pipes, but I imagine the flare will be very close to the frame. How close is your pass side collector from the frame on your 57? Also, my FPAs can with 2 connector pipes, one a short straight piece, the other is longer, with a curve just past the flange. My FPAs did not come with any instructions as to which pipe fits which side. Do they only fit one way? Also, how large are your exhaust pipes? I am looking a 2 1/2" on my car, but there is hardly an abundance of room between the top of the trans crossmember and the floorboards. All 3 of my 57s had dual exhaust, and with the mufflers in the stock location, the floor could get pretty hot on the feet. I am considering shorter mufflers,, located further back to hopefully adress that problem. Maybe even notch the top of the trans crossmember for a little extra space. Think that is worth the effort? Thanks for your input.
Surprisingly my 2 1/2" exhaust pipes have plenty of clearance over the crossmember and they don't pass through the indented area on the top of it. The ball connectors only fit where they belong. I used the longer Borla mufflers located before the rear axle with an X-pipe. I had adjustable rods on both ends of my Z bar, maybe that would help posistion the ends? I have a Mustang Toploader, an HEH, it has the 1 1/16" input shaft. I am unaware of different input shaft lengths. I just rebuilt mine replacing that part and that never came up. Mine trans was supposedly in a 390 car though.
I shimmed my mounts trying to get better clearance for the FPA try-wye headers but ran out of stud. Sold those and bought the shorties. I am thinking about shimming the mounts to move the engine over for header clearance on the right side, you can see a space between the header connecting flange and the frame rail but that is about it, maybe 1/16-1/8" max.
I will take a Z bar pic later today.
Thanks Lynn for the awesome pics and explanations.
Like Jeff said, thanks for the photos Lynn, always nice to see other peoples solutions to different problems. Since the stock 57-59 Fords with factory dual exhaust systems had the mufflers directly below the front seat passengers feet, the heat tended to radiate up into the floorboards. With your exhaust having the mufflers further back, and a X pipe, routing the front pipes closer to the trans should reduce the heat intrusion. I think when describing your Toploader, you meant to say 1 1/16" 10 spline input shaft. My HEH-BV 289 trans also has the same size input shaft splines as a 390 trans, just the small pilot tip is longer. If you have a small spline FE input shaft alongside a SB input, the difference in the tip is easily seen. Although the 427/428/429 Toploaders had the larger 1 3/8" x10 spline input, they also used the same short pilot tip as your 390 trans. My understanding of the deeper FE truck bellhousing was so that the same NP 435 and Borg Warner T-18/T-19 truck 4 speed transmissions could be used behind any of the available engines Ford used at the time, whether it was a 300 6 cyl, 289/302, or 352/360/390 FE. I am just guessing here, but I think that the reason that Ford used a longer input tip on the small block engines, was due to the fact that the flywheel flange on a FE sticks out of the block further, compared to the small block engines where the crank flange is esentially flush with the rear main bearing cap.
Just realized I forgot about the Z bar pics, I'll try to remember tomorrow. Yea I had a brain fart on the spline/diameter thing, I went back and fixed my post...???
Lynn, I have a question regarding your picture of the z bar pivot bracket that you modified. I am also installing a 390 with a toploader in my Custom 300 that was previously a stick shift. How do you remove the ball stud from the bracket? Is it threaded or pressed in? I can't tell from the picture.
Thanks
Ron
it is pressed in. I pressed it out, drilled a hole and welded the pivot ball in from the backside.
Thanks Lynn, I'll get right on it.
Ron