Bob's 57 AGIN is back to the shop (Santini's)

[JPotter57]

Its not just brake surface area, its clamping force.  The disk brake setups, especially modern stuff, has much higher clamping force than a drum brake could ever manage.  Plus the friction surface of the rotor is almost twice that of the drum when viewing both sides of the rotor vs the single inside surface of a drum.  The brake pads, now those are another story, and your point is a very valid one.  But it still goes back the much larger caliper and its ability to clamp down on the rotor vs the small wheel cylinder trying to push the pad against the inside of the drum.  They both have their place.  Good stuff to think about Jim.

[JimNolan]

Bob,
  I run 11 inch discs with single pistons and they'll lock up if I want them too. How much more stopping power could I get with bigger brakes. Just asking.

[Ford Blue blood]

Stopping the car is more then just the brakes.  Suspension (springs rates, shocks and sway bars), front to rear balance, size and type of tire and the operator.  Anti locks are a great thing and do a great job for the average driver on both wet and dry conditions.  Having a good sense of the car (seat time) is one of the largest factors in getting the maximum performance from any given car.  Learning the limits is the best way to maximize performance.  These Fords come in around 3200 lbs.  The stock brakes were marginal at best when new.  Wagons and Rancheros had a slight advantage with larger brakes.  Converting to disc/drum or disc/disc will most likely out perform the rest of the car for the average builder and if I might say, many of us behind the wheel.

It kinda goes along with the "I've got a 9" in my 32 Duece" .  The car ain't nothing without a 9" but why?  Never hook up hard enough to break an 8" on the street but gotta spend the bucks for that big ol 9"!

Sorry for the rant....just had to give my H.O.

[JPotter57]

Yep..I agree.  I dont see me ever NEEDING more than 11 inch brakes.  I will eventually also have 11 inch disks on rear tto, but for now will use the 11 inch drums.  My Granada disks stop the car ok, would probably be better with power brakes, but not going there, too much clutter for my tastes.

[57AGIN]

Guys:

Given the size of my current system Kelsey-Hayes 2-piston and the recently installed 88 T-bird discs, I know I was stopping hard.  But I did lock up the brakes before I hit the Z car.  The CHP officer that was at the scene said that I would have had more stopping ability had the brakes not locked up.  Again sliding friction vs rolling friction.  I'm going to be studying all of this during reconstruction and decide what to do before getting on the road again.  At the Ford Car Club Council meeting this morning I spoke to a guy involved in road racing Shelby Cobras and he told me much of the problem could be attributed to the type of brake pads on the car.  OEM equipment really start to fade as the temperature of the pad rises and it certainly does in a panic stop situation.  Going to a non-organic brake pad which actually increases in stopping power as the temperatures reach 300 degrees would be a considerable help.  He said I might not need a 6-piston Brembo setup, but as I indicated I will be doing a lot of research.My tire foot print was approximately 8" wide on all 4 tires, with some B F Goodrich P225 X 60R X15 tires up front and bigger ones on the rear.  I don't know where the 3200 lb figure comes from, I've weighed my 57 at the drag strip and at a recycling yard's commercial weigh scale and it comes up at 3700 lbs without me in it.  It's no light weight.  Any way lots to ponder and probably plenty ot time to do it.

Bob
57 AGIN

[JimNolan]

Bob,
  Good luck with your quest. I know there's no way my car can be set up for optimum braking. When the back end started chasing the front end on a panic stop once I just dialed it down till the front slid and the back didn't. I did that on gravel as instructed but, how in the world could that be correct. I'd bet the old drum set-up was better designed from Ford when it left the factory in 1957.
   I looked up wheel speed sensors and aftermarket ABS systems but couldn't find anything. I'd say that if you contacted a chassis company that designed brake systems for racing cars you might be better off. I'd think it's expensive though. My 63 with drum brakes all the way around is probably the best braking car I ever had other than new ABS systems. The problem with it right now is I've got an 8 1/2" booster on it and it's too much power assist. I bought a 7 1/2" booster I'm installing this spring. But, when I'm done it's still a system designed by someone that don't know diddly when it comes to brake systems.
Ford Blue Blood is probably as close to being correct as anyone. I really think the factory has better engineers than me. And, without doubt they didn't just go to an aftermarket catalog and say " here's some bigger brakes, they should be better".

[lalessi1]

A couple of the things that are often overlooked in brake talk...a bigger diameter brake offers better braking in part because any braking force is applied is farther away from the center of rotation and simple mechanical advantage dictates more stopping torque for the same clamping force or the same stopping torque for less clamping force. This reduces pedal pressure and braking temperatures and allows better modulation or control. Another note, '57 drum brakes are partially self actuating, the leading shoe is actually pulled into the drum by the friction that it is causing. This reduces pedal force and a certain amount of control is sacrificed. Drums tend to "grab" and lock easily. Tire diameter also can play a roll in the mechanical advantage discussion as well.

[hiball3985]

We could write a book on this subject and never get it exactly right. The brake engineers at the factories spend huge amounts of time and $$$ trying to get it right. Sometimes too much braking is as bad as not enough, locking up the fronts and sliding in Bob's case is a good example. Another reason I prefer non power is I can get a better feel, I always find power brakes too sensitive, but thats just me. I made the mistake of changing from organic pads on my Mustang. The high performance pads are great if you are road racing and braking every ten seconds were they heat up but around town they suck. And how often do you brake hard enough to fade the organics? Not enough to justify them in my opinion.

[57AGIN]

Guys:

All good points and I will thoroughly study the situation our older cars present in terms of having to share the road with the more modern cars and their "improved " braking.  I will be dealing with a couple of different people as well as a couple of manufacturers (don't know which ones yet).  One of the people will be the guy who road races Cobras and works for a company that deals primarily with Dodges & Dodge Viper racing parts.  Another will be one of my bowling partners, who is the crew chief for a group of Porsche Cup racing cars.  My bowling partner was brought up with Fox body Mustangs before going over to the "dark side," so he's very familiar with Fords and their braking systems.  I'll pass along the information I gather and maybe we will all gain some knowledge that can help our rare rides survive, in spite of where their owners live or the way we drive.

The attached photos show the brakes I currently have on my 57, the first set of 4 covers the front brakes, master cylinder and power assist.

Bob
57 AGIN

[57AGIN]

Guys:

This second set of photos shows the recently installed rear discs.  They are replacements from the 1988 T-Bird. I've also shown the sway bar setup from Southwest Thunderbirds as installed.  It doesen't appear that the sway bar was damaged in the accident, but that remains to be seen.

Bob
57 AGIN

[57AGIN]

Guys:

The insurance appraiser came by today to do his preliminary estimates.  I've gotten in touch with Steve Pierce out in Twentynine Palms and he has some complete front clips to choose from.  I'm putting Santini in touch with Pierce to get some figures ready for discussions between the body shop and the insurance company. 

I believe the engine will be OK as I'm pretty sure it stopped immediately on impact.  Attached is a photo of the battery ground strap connection to the frame.  The lug is still attached to the frame, but the battery cable is no longer in it. 

Things are starting to get moving, pretty soon the tear down will begin.  Will keep you informed of the progress.

Bob
57 AGIN

[John Palmer]

Bob, Very sorry for your accident, but appreciative of your time in sharing the details with us.  It's important for us to learn from your real world experience.

In my case, I need to up grade my Ranch Wagon suspension to make it safe for vintage trailer towing.  I will be very interested in your study and parts selection for an improved braking system.

John

[JimNolan]

Bob,
  I went back and re-read all the posts, especially your first post. After looking at your setup I think most of us would really be happy with what you have to begin with. Trying to stop 4000 lbs. is a feat within itself, much less try to make it stop like a 3000 lb sport car that had years of suspension engineering going into it's breaking system counting ABS. I wonder if you can buy your way into a better handling car if you don't go ABS. And, I bet most of the fender benders that the insurance company's pay for isn't 57 Ford Custom's, I bet they're 3000 lb sport cars with well engineered braking systems that have ABS. Just say'in, I wish I had what you got. Jim

[RICH MUISE]

I agree 100%, and think of it this way also...if you had stopped faster, think how much harder that Chevelle would have slammed into you.

[57AGIN]

Jim & Rich:

I sure thought so at the time Rick & I were putting them on.  But I'm still going to look into swept area, caliper clamping force and brake pad materials.  Since putting the car on the road in 2004, with the basic Granada front & drum rear brakes, I've put a little over 20,000 miles on the car.  So I've never really had to worry about putting new brake pads on, I upgraded to the Kelsey-Hayes brakes in early 2012 and then the new rear discs in January 2014. 

Bob
57 AGIN