update on Rich's build

[hiball3985]

OK, good I have been trying to keep up. I;ll have to do some work on my front end again in the future. With these damn Granada spindles and stock springs I couldn't get the exact alignment I wanted on one side  . I read other post about the problem after the fact and when I already had it together, but it's still driveable, I've got 5000 miles on it now, it just bugs me..

[RICH MUISE]

That's the first I remember reading about granada spindles not allowing alignment...maybe because I'm paying more attention now that I'm at that point..or soon anyways. Were you doing your own alignment, or at a shop, and what was the problem?
Since I know ZERO about alignment, I figured I'd find an old school guy and just let him have at it. I assume the guy I found will know what it should be..he's got a super reputation around town.

[hiball3985]

There have been a few people that have run into this same problem, on the passenger side I can't get the camber I want. With no shims the best I can get is 0, I would prefer it to be -1.5/2. I read someone that had this problem had to mill some material off of the upper control arm surface were the sims go. Of course every car will be different, the tolerances in parts and assembly wasn't great back in 57.

Good you found an old guy mechanic, he will probably have a good camber/caster gauge like the one we used. I've known many people here who have had nothing but bad luck with the electronic systems the these new "technicians" use. ( read kids that don't have a clue )

[RICH MUISE]

Terry uses both...he's got all the computerized stuff, but the old school knowhow to back it up when needed. I was at the shop that did my rear end mods this morning, and found out he also uses Terry for all his projects. "he won't dissapoint, and works too cheap" Colby told me.
Anyway, alignment and cross checking everything is rescheduled for tommorrow morning.

What I went to the shop for...
I mentioned elsewhere I ordered my rear brake kit, and I should have it Thursday. The kit I ordered is less universal than most, and is made specifically for a rear end with old style big bearing, 31 spline axles, and a 2.36 offset. Aside from mine having a 2.5 offset, my center registration hubs are too big. I could have spacers made for the 2.5 offset and have the rotors bored to match the axels, but Colby told me to pull the axles after I physically have the brake kit so everything could be verified, and he would remachine the offset and the registration hub. I wasn't expecting it, but he said he wouldn't charge me anything. My axel flange od is just fine as is.

[hiball3985]

Rich, if you have an opportunity to ask, see if he can explain how these electronic contraptions measure caster. I see how they can measure camber and toe but I have asked two so called technicians to explain it to me and they both looked at me like I had a pile of **** on my head  Thats when I hit the road  looking for an old timer that still used as camber/caster gauge. 

[RICH MUISE]

This whole alignment thing is somewhat of a mystery to me, but if I understand Castor correctly, it's the centerline of wheel up and down movement which I would think would be determined by control arm / spindle positioning, established when the frame was manufactured?? Is it something that is even checked in a normal alignment, or only when a car is in the build stages. Can it even be ajusted without major frame mods?
We had our Camry alignment done just before we traded it in. Printout showed toe and camber, nothing about castor.
I will ask.

[billd5string]

On many modern cars, sometimes castor and/or camber isn't adjustable. However, on these cars it should absolutely be adjustable and is done by inserting shims in the upper a-arms to adjust the whole unit in or out equally (camber adjust), or more angled to the front or more angled to the back (castor adjust).

It has been 30 years since I did alignments for living, so I am a bit rusty on all the alignment tech but how I was taught should certainly apply to these 57's. We didn't have any computers for alignments back then.

[lalessi1]

Rich, I started to post a little info on the caster thing here but I put it a new topic in General Tech. Some cars in my experience have only toe in adjustment available.

[hiball3985]

Rich, caster is an important part of the alignment, it's just done with shims just as the camber is. Thats my concern with the computer stuff, can it read caster as most new cars  can't even adjust caster. I like to run about 2  degrees positive caster, with your power steering you may be able to run higher 3-4. The more caster you can put in the straighter and more stable it will track. Manufacturers put in a min amount to keep steering easy.

When I put my front end together I did an initial adjustment using a plumb bob for the camber and a tape measure for the toe. When we checked it at the shop I was right on on the one side and only -1 on the other but I have no way to check caster and thats why it went to the shop.

[billd5string]

...and a tape measure for the toe...

As crazy as this sounds, a tape measure for toe is how I was taught by the mechanics at the tire store all those years ago. We had a fancy light setup which clamped onto each wheel and while it worked great, the shop manager preferred to set the toe using a tape measure every time. So that's how I learned to do it.

A few years ago I had the front tires wear out really quickly on my crown vic (it was clearly from being toe out) and was told that the only adjustment was toe and they wanted $50 or $60 for that. So I just did it in my driveway with a tape measure and at least 3 years later, the tires are wearing perfectly on the front. I'll take that tape measure method any day. 

[lalessi1]

Rich, caster is an important part of the alignment, it's just done with shims just as the camber is. Thats my concern with the computer stuff, can it read caster as most new cars  can't even adjust caster. I like to run about 2  degrees positive caster, with your power steering you may be able to run higher 3-4. The more caster you can put in the straighter and more stable it will track. Manufacturers put in a min amount to keep steering easy.

When I put my front end together I did an initial adjustment using a plumb bob for the camber and a tape measure for the toe. When we checked it at the shop I was right on on the one side and only -1 on the other but I have no way to check caster and thats why it went to the shop.

Jim, I found this on the web. Goes back to how caster affects camber. This sounds complicated but it really is not. I can't speak to haow accurate this is but it looks right. The biggest issue I have ever had in DIY alignment is a level surface!

Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

[hiball3985]

Jim, I found this on the web. Goes back to how caster affects camber. This sounds complicated but it really is not. I can't speak to haow accurate this is but it looks right. The biggest issue I have ever had in DIY alignment is a level surface!

Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]

Thanks Lynn,
Yes, level is a problem, especially here in California were the ground is always moving 

Maybe it's not complicated to you but all that math throws me for a loop 

I'm still between a rock and a hard place on my drivers side wheel. I have 0 camber and +2 caster. I would have to remove the caster to get better camber but I don't want to loose the caster so I just have to live with it until I can take the top A arm off and mill it a little, I don't see any other way around it..

[hiball3985]

Rich, sorry we hijacked your build thread but you know how it goes..

[lalessi1]

See my reply in General Tech...

[RICH MUISE]

My alignment guy got super busy in a matter of hours yesterday, so other than my normal alignment and checking all my nuts, bolts, etc. that's all he could do on mine. He knew it was coming back in a while for a realignment after I redo the front springs, so he elected to wait on things like my steering wheel not being rotated correctly. I didn't even try to ask him about how the castor is checked in a computerized shop...best to wait until he's got time to chat.
He did say mine looked pretty good , didn't find/see any issues to worry about. My castor and camber were "pretty close, actually, and toe was off, but wasn't too bad.
When I restored my front end, I had kept the original shims with a note as to their location, and just replaced them with new ones of the same thickness when I reassembled. I guess that helped getting it reasonably close.