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Author Topic: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.  (Read 1497 times)

lalessi1

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2017, 08:23:09 PM »

I have my suspicions about motor mounts. My memory is that the motor mounts were different between the Y blocks and the FE's based on what I bought in 1965 from Ford for my '57 FE swap then. That is not what the parts book I have says however. Then there are those that say you must turn the Y block motor mounts around for an FE, that won't work on my car. My engine does sit back about 1/4" farther back than I wish it did and my FPA headers are VERY close to the frame on the passenger side. I also think one of my motor mounts has the rubber separating from the steel. I would slot the top of the motor mounts, before I would mess with the frame.

I have a passenger car "Z" bellhousing and I also have a narrow pattern early car one. My understanding is that a 4 spd Toploader will not work with a "T" truck bellhousing, it is too deep. I have a '59 Z bar that worked as is when I was using mechanical clutch linkage. I will be glad to measure or take pics of anything if it helps   
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Lynn

59meteor

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2017, 10:52:35 PM »

Lynn, from what I understand, the FE truck bellhousing is a bit deeper than the car bellhousing, but the Toploader I am using is a small block unit (HEH-BV, from a 66 Fairlane 289), the small blocktrans is supposed to be identical to a 390Fairlane transmission, except that the small block input shaft is longer than a FE unit. The splined area is identical, the added length is only on the small tip, where it goes into the pilot bushing. Some guys say that to use the SB trans behind a FE engine, the extra length can be trimmed, or , if a T bellhousing is used, the SB input will be fine as is. I do have a Lakewood scattershield from my 427 powered drag car, that I had planned on using, but the extra wide flange of the Lakewood housing looks like it would have major interference with the FPA headers.
I would be interested in any photos of your 59 FE Z bar, and perhaps the length of the lever that connects the Zbar to the clutch fork rod, and how far the lever is from the inner end of the tube. In addition to the 58 FE Z bar I have, I also have a Z bar that I removed from my 59 Custom 300 parts car. That car is a 223 6 cylinder/3 speed manual, and suprisingly, the 58 FE and 59 6 cyl. Z bars are identical, other that the orientation of the inside lever lower pin. The 6 cyl Z bar has the pin pointing inward, towards the engine, the 58 FE Z bar is opposite, pointing to the frame. So I would be suprised if the 59 FE Z bar is different, but you never can tell!
As for the motor mounts, since my 59 is a factory 332 FE car, I still have the original motor mounts, however they are (understantbly) in poor condition, but when I compared the old mounts to the new, height wise at least, the new mounts were about 1/4" taller, which I figured was due to 55 years of service on the old mounts. Like the motor mounts on my 3 old 57 Y block cars, the open end of the mounts "C" shape are facing the firewall, as the stock 59 mounts did. I am considering just installing a shim between the frame mount and motor mount, as it seems that lowering the engine will put the passenger side FPA header even closer to the frame. As it is, I have maybe 1/4" between the headers ball end flange and the frame. I have yet to trial fit the supplied exhaust connector pipes, but I imagine the flare will be very close to the frame. How close is your pass side collector from the frame on your 57? Also, my FPAs can with 2 connector pipes, one a short straight piece, the other is longer, with a curve just past the flange. My FPAs did not come with any instructions as to which pipe fits which side. Do they only fit one way? Also, how large are your exhaust pipes? I am looking a 2 1/2" on my car, but there is hardly an abundance of room between the top of the trans crossmember and the floorboards. All 3 of my 57s had dual exhaust, and with the mufflers in the stock location, the floor could get pretty hot on the feet. I am considering shorter mufflers,, located further back to hopefully adress that problem. Maybe even notch the top of the trans crossmember for a little extra space.  Think that is worth the effort? Thanks for your input.
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1959 Meteor 2 door sedan under construction, 428 Cobra Jet 4 speed. Been drag racing Fords (mostly FEs) 43 years and counting.
Previous 50s Fords include 57 Custom 4 door, 2 57 Ford Sedan Deliveries, 59  Country Sedan, and as a 9 year old, fell in love with the family 58 2 door Ranch Wagon.

lalessi1

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »

Surprisingly my 2 1/2" exhaust pipes have plenty of clearance over the crossmember and they don't pass through the indented area on the top of it. The ball connectors only fit where they belong. I used the longer Borla mufflers located before the rear axle with an X-pipe. I had adjustable rods on both ends of my Z bar, maybe that would help posistion the ends? I have a Mustang Toploader, an HEH, it has the 1 1/16" input shaft. I am unaware of different input shaft lengths. I just rebuilt mine replacing that part and that never came up. Mine trans was supposedly in a 390 car though.

I shimmed my mounts trying to get better clearance for the FPA try-wye headers but ran out of stud. Sold those and bought the shorties. I am thinking about shimming the mounts to move the engine over for header clearance on the right side, you can see a space between the header connecting flange and the frame rail but that is about it, maybe 1/16-1/8" max.

I will take a Z bar pic later today.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:41:45 PM by lalessi1 »
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Lynn

Jeff Norwell

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2017, 08:46:08 AM »

Thanks Lynn for the awesome pics and explanations.
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"Hey!... you gonna eat that?"

1932 Ford P/U
1932 Ford 5 window Coupe
1957 Ford Custom-428-4 speed
1957 Ford Custom-460-C6
1957 Ford Custom-390 Gt-4 speed
Comp Coupe short W/B Dragster

http://www.norwell-equipped.com

59meteor

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2017, 12:10:37 PM »

Like Jeff said, thanks for the photos Lynn, always nice to see other peoples solutions to different problems. Since the stock 57-59 Fords with factory dual exhaust systems had the mufflers directly below the front seat passengers feet, the  heat tended to radiate up into the floorboards. With your exhaust having the  mufflers further back, and a X pipe, routing the front pipes closer to the trans should reduce the heat intrusion. I think when describing your Toploader, you meant to say 1 1/16" 10 spline input shaft. My HEH-BV 289 trans also has the same size input shaft splines as a 390 trans, just the small pilot tip is longer. If you have a small spline FE input shaft alongside a SB input, the difference in the tip is easily seen. Although the 427/428/429 Toploaders had the larger 1 3/8" x10 spline input, they also used the same short pilot tip as your 390 trans. My understanding of the deeper FE truck bellhousing was so that the same NP 435 and Borg Warner T-18/T-19 truck 4 speed  transmissions could be used behind any of the available engines Ford used at the time, whether it was a 300 6 cyl, 289/302, or 352/360/390 FE. I am just guessing here, but I think that the reason that Ford used a longer input tip on the small block engines, was due to the fact that the flywheel flange on a FE sticks out of the block further, compared to the small block engines where the crank flange is esentially flush with the rear main bearing cap.
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1959 Meteor 2 door sedan under construction, 428 Cobra Jet 4 speed. Been drag racing Fords (mostly FEs) 43 years and counting.
Previous 50s Fords include 57 Custom 4 door, 2 57 Ford Sedan Deliveries, 59  Country Sedan, and as a 9 year old, fell in love with the family 58 2 door Ranch Wagon.

lalessi1

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2017, 06:48:09 PM »

Just realized I forgot about the Z bar pics, I'll try to remember tomorrow. Yea I had a brain fart on the spline/diameter thing, I went back and fixed my post...???
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Lynn

my3rdcustom300

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 03:48:35 PM »

Lynn, I have a question regarding your picture of the z bar pivot bracket that you modified. I am also installing a 390 with a toploader in my Custom 300 that was previously a stick shift. How do you remove the ball stud from the bracket? Is it threaded or pressed in? I can't tell from the picture.
Thanks
Ron
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lalessi1

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 05:02:44 AM »

it is pressed in. I pressed it out, drilled a hole and welded the pivot ball in from the backside.
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Lynn

my3rdcustom300

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Re: Toploader 4 speed, mods to crossmember.
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2017, 09:13:53 AM »

Thanks Lynn, I'll get right on it.
Ron
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