PS pump with 58 system but a 351c engine

[brushwolf]

What are some possibilities to use for a PS pump on a 1970 351c engine, but with 58 PS system otherwise? I have all the new hoses for the entire 58 setup already, but changed my mind on motor to be used (again..) 

I probably have several 58-63 FE pumps around here and some GM and Mopar pumps as well. My understanding is that the newer pumps are much higher pressure and I want to stick with the simple V belt system. Keeping it more or less old school, except for the disk brakes off a 71 Lincoln Mk3 and an electronic distributor.

Musing over some possibilities here.

Could use a 58-63 pump off an FE and build or buy(?) brackets, but the 58 I just looked at has a real dinky pump pulley and the crank pulley on the 351c has a much larger drive pulley than the FE.  This will overdrive the pump, right?  Or it does not matter cuz pump bypass will open and pass excess fluid anyway?

Somewhere around here I have a 63 Impala pump, which utilized the ram type PS setup and has a pump pulley similar in diameter to a 351c pump and maybe similar pressure to the 58, though I might have fun hooking the hoses to that and no doubt could not buy pump brackets so would have to fab them as well.. Yes, I know it is a Delco pump, but I have a Lincoln 460 that came stock with a Delco pump too...

If I have another 351c pump or buy one (may have one off a 76 351w here also..), that will still be more pressure than 58 PS is designed for?  But,  maybe I can get a restrictor of some sort to diminish the flow rate as used to be common on street rods with mismatched pump and power rack... Solves bracket problem and flow issues, though main pressure hose still might be a small problem...

Any suggestions or other ideas, short of removing all the steering linkage for the 3rd time (manual 57 system first rebuilt, then 63 PS setup rebuilt, then 58 PS setup rebuilt). It stays now.. I sure create a lot of work for myself...

[KULTULZ]

Did the engine come with a pump?

If it was me ...

I would try and find a 351C with the complete correct period FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive). If it has a SAGINAW PUMP, it is OK (IMO) as FORD used many SAGINAW components during that period. You would then check your SHOP MANUAL for the required pressure for the system on it now (58 pump output pressure) and then find the year SHOP MANUAL for the pump you choose to find its' output pressure.

If too high you would then - https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/910-32923%20Heidts.pdf

I have the 73 SHOP MANUAL so I could give you that pressure.

[gasman826]

A lot of questions here.  '57 to maybe '59, Eaton pump bypass was 700 psi.  After that, Eaton pump bypass went up to 1000 psi.  I've run both styles of Eaton pumps on '64 valve body with no issues. 

Mid '70s Lincoln pumps look like GM style Saginaw pump but are not.  Shape is very similar but size and bolt pattern are not the same.  To clarify, a Chevy Saginaw (common 'ham bone' pump) is not a replacement for mid '70s Lincoln pump.  It is physically not the same size.  It does not bolt up.  It does not have the same pressure.  I have a mid 70s Lincoln 460 PS pump running successfully for several thousands of miles providing pressure for R&P steering and brake booster. 

Ford PS pump pressures are typically lower than GM pressures.

I am currently running a '97 Ford F250 351W pump on the Raunch Wagon with '64 Galaxie PS components with no issues.

Just because it works for me is no guarantee that it will work for in your application.  Just saying, this has worked for me.

Since you have 351C PS pump, pulleys and brackets, try 'em.

attached PICs were sent to me by a CARDONE engineer as answers to relief valve pressure differences between '57 PS and '64 PS

*********** attachment issue raised its ugly head and won't let me attach CARDONE research files *****************

[KULTULZ]

Mid '70s Lincoln pumps look like GM style Saginaw pump but are not.  Shape is very similar but size and bolt pattern are not the same.

If not SAGINAW, what were they? They were built to order for FORD and others. A SAGINAW PUMP came with a SAGINAW BOX.

It is best not to exceed given system pressure as damage may result. The BENDIX CONTROL VALVE and CYLINDER are not up to a SAGINAW output pressure.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/saginaw-power-steering-pumps

http://www.stangerssite.com/KnowFordPump.html

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/ford-and-eaton-power-steering-pumps

[brushwolf]

Did the engine come with a pump?

If it was me ...

I would try and find a 351C with the complete correct period FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive). If it has a SAGINAW PUMP, it is OK (IMO) as FORD used many SAGINAW components during that period. You would then check your SHOP MANUAL for the required pressure for the system on it now (58 pump output pressure) and then find the year SHOP MANUAL for the pump you choose to find its' output pressure.

If too high you would then - https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/910-32923%20Heidts.pdf

I have the 73 SHOP MANUAL so I could give you that pressure.

The 1970 351c engine did not come with pump or brackets, but after reading the replies I found a pump tagged 1973 351c Mustang under the bench in pole building . It is a Ford pump, not a Saginaw.. Found the matching brackets and bolts on a 351c motor on an engine stand out there, probably the same motor the pump came off way back when. So, it appears that I have all the parts for mounting it. And 73 just happens to be same year as your manual...

So, those parts cleaned up and mounted along with the Heidi's adjustable valve should do the trick (along with some line fab to adapt 73 pressure outlet on pump and 58 pressure inlet on the control valve to the Heidi's adjustable valve). Assume the return lines are the same deal, but less pressure tolerance required.

Never seen that adjustable valve before, although it appears similar to adjustable brake proportioning valves. Thought they were usually just flow restrictors that activated pump bypass when the desired pressure was reached. I would presume that one would install that valve adjusted to its most flow-restricting position and then gradually open the valve just until the PS works, lock it there and done?

[KULTULZ]

That valve was popular with FORD rack conversions using a SAGINAW pump.

You may not need that valve using the THOMPSON pump. I need to find my manuals to compare pressure/flow.

The only way to determine correct pressure flow is with a gauge/thermometer following test procedures. Usually, either a restriction (such as a flow regulator) or over pressure may/will cause excessive heat in the system. Did you find an OEM cooler per chance?

[brushwolf]

No, I didn't find an OEM cooler. But there may be one around here somewhere.  I recall seeing one laying on a shelf in front garage a few years ago, but parts from several buildings were moved into a new pole building over the course of a year. Was in a crunch for time and not everything is sorted and shelved yet, so I keep finding stuff I forgot I had and being unable to find other stuff I know I have somewhere.

Pretty sure there are only 3 possible places where that cooler could be given how and when I cleaned that garage out and organized those particular parts. I will check those places out and if nothing found, I will check out a storage semi trailer that I know there are some pumps in as well. Winter came early so I am sticking with the heated workspaces as much as I can.

[KULTULZ]

FYI -

- PS PUMP OUTPUT PRESSURE -

1958 FORD EATON - 700-900 PSI

1973 FORD THOMPSON - 1000-1175 PSI
1973 FORD SAGINAW- 1200-1350 PSI

The 1973 Applications PSI Variances Due To Different Pump Calibrations Used.

So if you decide to use the reducing valve, it causes more heat in the system and a fluid cooler would be nice.

[brushwolf]

OK, thanks for the info..

[terry_208]

Are ps pumps like superchargers, in that output can be changed by the speed they turn?

[KULTULZ]

Are ps pumps like superchargers, in that output can be changed by the speed they turn?

Yes and no. The pump will have a relief valve and how it was calibrated and the condition of the pump will dictate output pressure. There was also a system in later model cars that would regulate output pressure for road feel, i.e. limiting output pressure as the vehicle speed increased/varied.

[Ford Blue blood]

Look at the output valve on the pumps.  I found ( years ago so the memory is weak on this ) that the output valve of a Ford pump interchanged with the valve from a Chrysler.  (76 Valarie front end with 390 in a 48 Ford 1/2 ton)  Put the Chrysler valve in the Ford pump and everybody was happy.

The MII modification for a ham can GM pump is usually done with a reduction valve as mentioned.  I have modified the output valve by disassembling the valve and changing the springs.  Can't even begin to tell you what springs I used as that was the early 80 when the MII went into the 36.  Cutting the springs a little at a time also helps reduce the pressure and get rid of the "twitchiness".

[brushwolf]

Didn't see this post at the time, but I like the idea of reducing spring pressure in the original valve instead of adding restrictions to prompt the bypass valve to open. Will have to research that angle some more.