Winter is here and wouldn't you know the heater core has started leaking. What is the best way to get the heater core out for repair?
Depends, do you have "Factory Air"?
Custom 300 without air conditioning.
These are big so I'll send two.
...and the second Pic. These are out of the '57 Shop Manual (page 8-24).
I can't see all of the instructions but if I'm understanding what a can see and read, the heater core is removed from the firewall side and doesn't require taking anything apart under the dash.
Here are the Fig 20 & 21. Looks like just the temperature control cable and maybe a vacuum line.
It sure looks like it has to come out from inside the car as you can only access it by removing the plenum chamber.
Here's the whole chapter. 7 pics.
3 & 4
5 & 6
and 7. Hope this helps.
On a final note, based on what I've read on the forum, there's a seal on the temperature control valve that often fails. If that's not it you will need to replace it anyway if you rebuild the core. MAC's or Carpenter.
Thanks for all the scanning and information. It definitely helps a lot. If I'm going to all this trouble and expense I should probably change all the heater core related parts. I just checked and Mac's has everything except the vacuum thermostat valve. I'm not finding that anywhere. Any suggestions on where I can find that part? Thanks again for all your help.
I've just done all of this on re-assembling my Ranchero which is the same set up. The valve is available on EBay and yes, the gasket/seal is a poor design so I used plenty of "instant gasket". It is all removed from inside the car and if I were you I'd take the opportunity to flush out the heater core, I used de-scaler for kettles and you wouldn't believe the muck it shifted! If you need photographs just shout as mine is all still accessible.
Here's a recent thread of mine on the valve:
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5322.0
Just looked on EBay and there's quite a few N.O.S ones available. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1957-1960-Ford-Thunderbird-Heater-Control-Valve-/311231055716?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4876d10764&vxp=mtr
Hey Bos.....just curious since you never said. I assume you do have the heating unit as pictured in the manual Lucky '57 so nicely posted? There were two...the one in the manual is the factory installed heater, but many many '57's had the dealer installed option, which is totally different.
Limey 57 — The part I'm not finding is the small round plastic piece that turns the vacuum on and off. I can find the larger valve that the water hose attaches to.
Rich — Good to know. What is the difference in the two? Any way to tell which is used without taking the car apart. Do they both take the vacuum control valve? Mine does have vacuum hooked up to it, but I would more than happy to bypass the vacuum altogether and have a one piece heater core and put the water shut off in the actual heater hose. I am just bypassing the whole heat unit at the moment which works but makes driving it in the cold and foggy Oregon weather very limited.
From what I understand, either of the heater units used several different control valves, so it would be good to have yours in hand when comparing pics of ebay units.
The difference between the two heaters is very easy to tell. From the engine compartment, look at the heater. If it only uses the lower firewall hole and has a plate over the top hole (above the weld seam on the cowl) then it is a dealer installed unit and none of the info in the manual will be applicable I believe. Also, the dealer installed unit had a box (heater core case) that hung down below the dashboard glovebox area.
The factory unit utilized the cowl opening for fresh air.
Thanks Rich. I will check again in the morning. I looked at the heater from the cowl side this morning and to my memory both holes have tubes coming out and nothing is blocked off. Under the dash is the long phenum chamber. There is no separate box hanging down.
Quick question . . . if one of the holes is blocked off how do the two heater hoses attach to the heater core?
Sounds like you have a factory heater. The two holes Rich is refering to are visible when the heater is removed and are quite large. The top one is covered by the blower motor and the lower by the heater core. The manual is good to have and covers this repair very well.
Quote from: BBoswell on 2014-12-27 21:48
Limey 57 — The part I'm not finding is the small round plastic piece that turns the vacuum on and off. I can find the larger valve that the water hose attaches to.
Rich — Good to know. What is the difference in the two? Any way to tell which is used without taking the car apart. Do they both take the vacuum control valve? Mine does have vacuum hooked up to it, but I would more than happy to bypass the vacuum altogether and have a one piece heater core and put the water shut off in the actual heater hose. I am just bypassing the whole heat unit at the moment which works but makes driving it in the cold and foggy Oregon weather very limited.
There is a part that contains no valve and you can put a water shut off, I think they are harder to find. I'm not sure if they were 57 specific or used on other years and models, I can post a picture if you need it for reference. There is also a valve that just uses the cable control and no vacuum, thats what I changed mine to..
There are two types of control valves as well. One has a vacuum line and the other a liquid fill capillary. The liquid filled capillary is coiled up and located against the face of the heater core. it really isn't that hard to remove the heater core. Disconnect the heater hoses under the hood. remove the glove box door, the glove box, the fresh air vents and the radio. You will then have easy access to the front of the plenum and the half dozen or so sheet metal screws (5/16 hex head if they are original) that hold the front of the plenum on. After that is off there are 4 more screws that hold the heater core in place. Then remove the cable (and vacuum line if there is one) from the control valve and the heater core should pull out. look for leaks where the valve bolts on and on the valve itself.
I switched form a capillary control valve to a vacuum type and found the control cable to be almost too short. I bought a capillary style and have yet to install it. I bought it from a gentleman that rebuilds them. I will try to find a record of my purchase FYI. I would have a radiator shop pressure test the assembly prior to reinstallation.
Thanks Lynn, the capillary one is what I use I just couldn't think of the name :003:.. Just requires the cable and no vacuum..
I believe this is a factory heater. Photos attached.
There is a manual for sale locally but when I called and ask if it had anything on the heater core the man looked thru it and said it didn't. I think he may be wrong because judging from the cover it looks like the same manual that is being reprinted and sold by Mac's. Photo attached.
As for the valve I would prefer one that contains no valve if that is available. Second choice would be the simple cable pull. If the cable is too short I could just wire it open and still use the under hood shut off valve.
Any information where to look for these different valves would be appreciated. When I looked on Mac's I only saw the vacuum style available.
A big thanks to everyone for all the info. This is going to make my life a lot easier once I have everything gathered and start to work on the change.
This is a rebuilt capillary style heater control valve. Temperature expands the liquid in the tube and as it expands it operates a small piston that controls the valve depending on where it is set. I think the part # is B7A-18502-B. The business card is from the guy that rebuilds these and I bought it through eBay. I have an old one that I assumed was leaking.
The second type of valve has TWO parts, the valve itself (Vacuum Water Valve) (see the eBay link above) and the vacuum thermostat valve. Engine vacuum connects to the thermostat which is controlled internally by a bimetallic strip, cable adjusted, and the regulated vacuum is sent on the valve. See reply no.3 above, figure 13. The ASSEMBLY part # is B7A-18502-B. I have one of these that is "new" in my car now and the cable BARELY reaches. I am planning on putting the capillary style back in, I think it is a superior design.
This is the third type, no valve, just an outlet and just a shut off valve on the intake manifold.. I had this one on originally but changed to the capillary when I installed the new core.
This is the one I would personally prefer (KISS mentality) and I'm still looking. No luck so far. Thanks for the photo.
Quote from: BBoswell on 2014-12-28 13:17
This is the one I would personally prefer (KISS mentality) and I'm still looking. No luck so far. Thanks for the photo.
I like that too but it just drove me crazy the the heater control cable wasn't attached to anything to control :003: I have never seen one listed on Ebay like that for a 57, so it may be off a truck, Tbird, Mercury ??? Maybe they came on stripped down fleet models?? Sorry I can't be more help locating one.
I think it goes back to whether or not the heater is factory or dealer installed. Look at the photo of 57AGINs interior, (1st page, 4th row, middle picture, surf board) in the "members gallery section" you can see a dealer installed heater. These heaters originally had completely different controls installed in the factory block off plate in the dash. Probably no temperature control at all with a fan switch I would guess. I have seen these on a couple of cars. The picture posted is not a valve but merely a connector, the valve would probably be a manual petcock type valve located on the engine.
Well, I decided to go with the vacuum valve since that is what is in the car now. I contacted the fellow that lalessi1 recommended and was able to purchase everything new except the heater core from him. I'll order the heater core from Mac's. Just want to say thanks to everyone for their help in determining what I have and what I need.
Good luck. I will be doing the same thing to my Fairlane. Will be looking for further tips.
I'll keep you posted when I do mine. The weather here is in the 20-35 degree range and I'm having to do this in a carport so it may be a while. From the diagrams and info I've gathered from the forum it doesn't seem to complicated, just requires removing a lot of stuff to gain access.
Quote from: BBoswell on 2014-12-29 11:21
I'll keep you posted when I do mine.
Looking forward hear were it was leaking and some pics. Doing my Fairlane in February as well.
Ron
Just curious why you chose the vacuum rather then the capillary? I try to eliminate as many vacuum lines as possible, I don't like vacuum leak problems..
Several reasons. First I took into account that other than the leak my heating system works great. So since vacuum is what is in the car now it "should be" a simple replacement. Also considered the fact my car has very good vacuum. My final consideration was that I have had problems with capillary controlled heating products (home related) in the past. Short answer is that I just went with my gut feeling.
I do however have a vacuum line question. The shop manual shows the vacuum going to the vacuum controll piece for the valve coming from a "vacuum t". It doesn't show where the other two lines go. From what I can tell my vacuum line is a straight shot and doesn't "t" unless it does that inside the plenum.
I noticed that too, but I just ran mine to the engine. Maybe an AC vacuum line connection...? I really couldn't imagine another vacuum line seemingly under the dash to tee into.
Quote from: BBoswell on 2014-12-28 11:02
There is a manual for sale locally but when I called and ask if it had anything on the heater core the man looked thru it and said it didn't. I think he may be wrong because judging from the cover it looks like the same manual that is being reprinted and sold by Mac's. Photo attached.
Bos - That's the same manual I was referencing.
Yep, it is the same manual.
I figured he just didn't know what to look for so I took a drive into town to see for myself . . . . and low and behold right there on the same pages you posted were details on the heater core. Now I have my very own service manual . . . a Christmas present to myself. Now I can start the year off with a new heater core. I didn't realize just how good the heater worked until I disconnected the core from the engine and drove to town in 20+ degree weather . . . brrrrrrr!
My 2015 to do list includes installing my new Weiand intake, chrome tube grille and louvered hood. Then hopefully my Custom 300 will be complete to my satisfaction. After that I can turn to finishing my Ranchero which will require some custom building. I can't find a non-snap tonneau so I'm going build one. I'm also going to build a new console that is more service friendly and replace my B&M shifter with a Gennie shifter. Sounds like a fun 2015 for me.
I wish all of you have a safe New Years Eve celebration and a healthy, happy and exciting 2015.
Wholly cow. That's a lot of good work lined up. Good for you! Jebus H. Kristy, could you just focus on one car at a time, I don't know about the other '57 guys but I'm getting a little confused LOL "You the Man"
You fellas have a great 2015, stay focused, remember, it's not about what you love, it's about WHO loves you.
Lucky57
I guess it is a lot but that is my entire list for 2015 . . . and that is if there are on more unexpected things pop up like the heater core failure. I have been gathering the parts for my list for a couple of years and now it is time to start installing them. Building the tonneau and console are both bartering projects. The way I look at it is that I'm running out of years so I have to shoot for the moon when it comes to getting things done.
I also hope everyone has a fun and exciting 2015. My new year is off to a great start with a trip up north today for a visit with my 2 sons and my new 4 month old grandson.
The unexpected always pop up and at the wrong time. The heater core in my 66 Mustang started leaking today when returning from a movie with the grand kids. I was notified by the wife that her feet were getting wet :003:
This the first time I have been to a movie theater in about 20 years, $9 for a large pop corn, yikes!!! I'm behind the times..
I did a heater core in a 69 Mustang. Word to the wise, if the manual says to remove a part in the process, Do it. Will save a lot of grief.
Quote from: Jerrys Kars on 2015-01-02 11:33
I did a heater core in a 69 Mustang. Word to the wise, if the manual says to remove a part in the process, Do it. Will save a lot of grief.
Thanks, the 66 is really simple, no manual needed. The best part is they are cheap.
Just an update. Heater core is in and everything is working great. Found the problem to be the seal (Mac's) between the heater core and vacuum control valve. Found an original seal from the vendor that lalessi1 sent information on. Once I replaced the seal, I had the unit pressure tested and the put everything back together. Wouldn't you know it . . . I finished it up last night and today the sun is shinning and I don't need a heater. Thanks again to everyone who contributed info and suggestions. Made the job go a lot smoother.
Good to hear. Now I need to do mine!! :003:
I followed the tips from the forum and never even opened the shop manual. It was really easy. Took less than three hours not counting the time required to take into town and have pressure tested. Most of the time was draining the water, removing and reinstalling the under dash stuff and installing new hoses. From what I can tell the whole secret to having a successful non-leaking heater core is that tiny little seal. The original seal fits the shape and crevices perfectly. The seal I got from Mac's doesn't . . . it is more of a rectangle shape whereas the original seal is an oval shape. The extra seal material created by the rectangle shape causes small gaps when installed. And it appears that using a gasket sealer doesn't always work . . . or at least the Mac's seal I took out didn't because it had been installed with gasket sealer. If your old core had an original seal you might be able to do a little trimming on the Mac's seal and make it oval shaped . . . but in my opinion that would be a hit and miss thing. My first choice would be to try and find an original Ford seal - part number is B7A-19460-A.
Quote from: BBoswell on 2015-01-15 09:16
I followed the tips from the forum and never even opened the shop manual. It was really easy. Took less than three hours not counting the time required to take into town and have pressure tested. Most of the time was draining the water, removing and reinstalling the under dash stuff and installing new hoses. From what I can tell the whole secret to having a successful non-leaking heater core is that tiny little seal. The original seal fits the shape and crevices perfectly. The seal I got from Mac's doesn't . . . it is more of a rectangle shape whereas the original seal is an oval shape. The extra seal material created by the rectangle shape causes small gaps when installed. And it appears that using a gasket sealer doesn't always work . . . or at least the Mac's seal I took out didn't because it had been installed with gasket sealer. If your old core had an original seal you might be able to do a little trimming on the Mac's seal and make it oval shaped . . . but in my opinion that would be a hit and miss thing. My first choice would be to try and find an original Ford seal - part number is B7A-19460-A.
Ditto that!!! I found a NOS seal on ebay.
Something must have changed. I got mine from Macs last year and it was oval, worked fine.
www.macsautoparts.com/ford_mercury_late/heater-hot-water-valve-to-heater-core-seal-ford-and-mercury.html
I got an oval one from Mac's as well, put it in, and I don't know if it leaked or not, something is though. The original part has a raised "semi-o-ring" molded in it, it is simply preferable in my opinion.
Maybe rectangle is the wrong description. Oversized with square corners is maybe more accurate. See photos. One shows the part I got from Mac's, one shows close-up of part and the third shows the indention on the old gasket caused by overlap. From what I can tell the overlap caused a small gap on each side of the indented gasket which finally gave way to a small leak that soaked my floorboard over a few days.
Maybe they changed suppliers, if they did they shouldn't have excepted such bad quality. I would have bought a NOS if I had known at the time, just ordered the seal at the same time as the core, so far so good.
Here is a "real" one. It does not have a "semi-o-ring" as I described earlier, rather a contoured face. So much for memory.
I used polyurethane seam sealant (Sikaflex) as the repro-seal I had was awful. Time will tell if I did the right thing!
Ecklers (chevy guys) bought Macs a while back.
I don't know who their suppliers are now but,
I'm not buying any parts from them now.
Ron.
Hmmmm, I placed an order with Macs back in November, a pair of door courtesy light switches, door lock retaining clips and vent window rear edge seals and it still hasn't been shipped as stuff is on back-order. Kinda frustrating when you're at the re-assembly stage!
I've had mixed results using Macs, sometimes good sometimes bad. I ordered a part right after Ecklers took over, after a couple of weeks and no part showed up and no Email notification of a problem I had to call on the phone to find out what was going on. Then I was told the part was back ordered and they didn't expect a shipment for a month, they were only getting three pieces and they had orders for eight waiting. I proceeded to raise hell about why they don't notify people when something is back ordered and I'm setting on my ass waiting and my project has come to a stop. They insured me that they were going to improve their customer service but apparently they haven't.
Limey...you should be able to get the vent rear seal strip at www.classicautoparts.com and maybe the retaining clips as well. However I originally got my first set of coutesy light switches from them and they fell apart. I got my second replacement set from Ron Francis wiring and they are made much better.
Why do companies buy other companies if they are just going to let them go down the tubes? Frustrating.
I work for Tyco and ten years ago they decided the way to grow the business was to buy every other business they could get their hands on before promptly letting them decline!
If I am not mistaken they bought the business I worked back in the 80s and 90s (Raychem Corp out of Menlo Park, CA) for and did exactly that.
Yep, I know Raychem very well, Menlo Park still exists (I think) but many companies were bought and dropped straight away. The CEO of the time (L.Dennis Kozlowski) and his finance side-kick (Mark Scwartz) are still in prison for various fraud offenses.