I'm in the process of fixing the motor mounting "plates" that are welded to the cross member. Mine have been cut up in the past with a cutting torch by previous owners to no doubt install different engines and different motor mounts. I've got the engine (351W) with motor mounts attached, sitting in the frame. It is level left to right and is parallel to the front cross member. I've bolted the radiator and core support ( originally a six cylinder, if that makes a difference regarding the core support ) in place and now have a question about the front to back location of the core support.
The mounting location for the core support has a slotted mounting hole ( it may have been enlarged by previous owners ) Slotted so the core support/radiator can be moved forward or backward. Is that correct?What happens with the core support location when I get to the point of attaching the inner fenders and fenders?
I ask, as the distance between the back of the radiator and the water pump flange is just under 4 inches with the core support/radiator as far forward as possible. Does that sound correct? Rather tight
I'd add that the bolt ( square shoulder) at the bottom of the core support, that mounts the core support through a spring plate, rubber insulator and retaining plate, and shims, seems to be a little short. I can get the nut on with a thread or two......before I tighten it down. Does that sound correct? How tight do I make it? Bottomed out? just through the nut, or what?
Thanks
John
John. That spring plate is there to give the front sheetmetal a little cush when you hit bump or pothole, so no, I don't think you want to tighten down on it. Just snug up on the bolt until there is no play in the stacked assembly. The number of shims (3 I think) has to be in there. If not used on the top for height adjustment, then add them to the bottom (or vise versa ?). With that said, I'm trying to remember that bolt design, and I'm now thinking it's a shoulder bolt of sorts, so it is meant to have the nut tight, and the shims combined with the shoulder bolt design would give the proper 'squish' to the spring plate.
One of the bulletins I scaned and posted a few years ago (got them from Zap, RIP), has an illustration showing the bolt/spring/shim assembly.
core support location: I just measured my car. From the threaded hole on the firewall where the hood's bumper stops bolt on to the bolt hole at the top of the cowl ends where the inner fender to core support mounting brackets bolt thru (about an inch or so from the ends of the core support) on my car measure about 40 1/8.
When I was assembling my car, I drilled two lengths of furring strips with that hole spacing and used them with bolts to keep the core support in place while I worked on my radiator and fan, etc.. Think of a deuce's radiator support rods. When you do your final sheetmetal adjustment, that 40 1/8 should get you close enough to start, the sheetmetal adjustments will dictate where the core support ends up......... who knows where they'll actually end up.
My car is actually 40 even on one side and 40 3/16 on the other.
You're very lucky to have complete, unbroken, original hardware. The spring is usually broken or missing. I've temporarily mounted my core support to mock up the cooling system, AC, and get ready to run the engine without leaning on new paint. Final adjustment for the core center bolt should be after the front clip in hung and adjusted. After gaping and adjusting the doors, hang the fenders with acceptable gap and then adjust the core up or down (shims) to support the leading edge of the fenders. Other than the door to fender gap, leave everything loose until completely assembled and adjusted. When happy with fit, tighten.
Rich and Gary, I understand that you have a different motor than I, but what is the distance from the water pump flange to the radiator, in your set up, if you know? Mine is just under 4 inches and seems rather tight.
John
I just measured mine at 8 1/2"......radiator to center pulley on the serpentine system. As you mentioned, my engine is substantially different from yours in overall dimensions. The 4.6 is unique in that it is shorter than it is wide. I also pushed my radiator forward 1 1/4 (easy mod), and my engine is back further by an inch than other 4.6's for the bellhousing to clear the rack and pinion. Why did I push the radiator forward with all that space? My MKVIII electric fan and shroud are 5 1/2" and when I first installed the 4.6dohc, it had the large coil packs mounted in front of each of the heads.
Raunch Wagon with 351W w/serpentine belt, OEM core support and after market aluminum radiator (no difference with the OEM radiator) has about 3".
Custom with 460 with V-belts, custom core support, mid '70s Lincoln three core desert radiator has 2-1/2". I ran this radiator/core support on last engine with OEM steel 2 groove pulleys and a six blade fixed fan with shroud...very tight but worked well even in traffic at Woodward Dream Cruise with AC on. That 2 belt system had only one belt on the AC compressor. The compressor had a two groove pulley for a reason. So I cut a pair for three groove crank and water pump pulleys so the AC now has two belts. The fixed fan blade was 3/4" from the radiator and 1/4" from the crank pulley. Too close for me. I found a vendor that will supply 14" puller fans mounted in a shroud that will fit between everything.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-11-29 18:22
I just measured mine at 8 1/2"......radiator to center pulley on the serpentine system. As you mentioned, my engine is substantially different from yours in overall dimensions. The 4.6 is unique in that it is shorter than it is wide. I also pushed my radiator forward 1 1/4 (easy mod), and my engine is back further by an inch than other 4.6's for the bellhousing to clear the rack and pinion. Why did I push the radiator forward with all that space? My MKVIII electric fan and shroud are 5 1/2" and when I first installed the 4.6dohc, it had the large coil packs mounted in front of each of the heads.
Rich, please tell me how to easily moving the radiator forward.
Thanks
Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-11-29 21:29
Raunch Wagon with 351W w/serpentine belt, OEM core support and after market aluminum radiator (no difference with the OEM radiator) has about 3".
Custom with 460 with V-belts, custom core support, mid '70s Lincoln three core desert radiator has 2-1/2". I ran this radiator/core support on last engine with OEM steel 2 groove pulleys and a six blade fixed fan with shroud...very tight but worked well even in traffic at Woodward Dream Cruise with AC on. That 2 belt system had only one belt on the AC compressor. The compressor had a two groove pulley for a reason. So I cut a pair for three groove crank and water pump pulleys so the AC now has two belts. The fixed fan blade was 3/4" from the radiator and 1/4" from the crank pulley. Too close for me. I found a vendor that will supply 14" puller fans mounted in a shroud that will fit between everything.
Gary, that 3" clearance is in line with what I have. Can you tell me the vendor name for the 14"fans in a shroud?
Thanks
http://coolingcomponentsinc.com/
Quote from: KYBlueOval on 2017-11-29 21:39
Rich, please tell me how to easily moving the radiator forward.
Thanks
Somewhere on this forum we had a thread on it, but I couldn't find it and most of my old photos are in my old computer I haven't hooked up yet. I did a combination of ideas from Pat Fleishman and Jim Nolan.
Basically it involves mounting the radiator in front of the core support instead of behind it. To do that, you have to cut slots in the top of the core support so the radiator can be dropped down in from the top. That was Pat's idea. For a spacer, a few lengths of thin wall aluminum tubing works great so you don't have to fiddle with a bunch of standoff spacers. That was Jim's idea. I used 1" sq. tubing from Lowe's. I also removed the rib/weld flange at the bottom of the core support and rewelded the seam. That was done so the radiator could be lowered to insure it would clear the hood. My radiator is almost sitting on top of the core support bolt we just talked about, but I do believe the Auto City Classic radiators a a little taller than oem.
I did find one pic in my old 4.6 install thread that shows the slot that has to be cut in the core support. Note the red arrow is pointing to the slot
I moved the radiator forward 3/4" by "sectioning" the support. Cut the sides carefully and weld back in. Pics not too good but will give an idea. Now have 7/16" clearance between the fan and radiator.
Great idea, Bill.
Just my 2 cents, but comparing the two approaches, I see advantages to both. The slotting as I did is a bit less work if that matters (to me it wouldn't), and the radiator could be moved back to original position down the road if needed. The downside to my approach is the hood has to be off to remove the radiator.
Bill's approach would look more unmolested, and would make for a much easier radiator removal. Downsides would be, it's a permanent change,and a difficult mod to do with the core support still in the car. That's not your situation, of course, John, but for others it might be.
John, I just moved mine forward. the core support is designed to have the radiator mount with radiator flanges flush with front or the rear of the radiator, (V8 or 6 respectively). I moved the flanges on my radiator 2" to the rear of mine, moving my radiator 2" forward.
There are shims on the front support and a "clearance spec" on the assembly.... gap the doors, fenders and hood then "tighten" the core support.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3238.0
Rich, I see what you did after looking at my core support and radiator. Bill,I also now understand what you did, after studying it a little. I'd say both are very doable, with the added advantage that Rich pointed out, about being able to remove the radiator with removing the hood, if I follow Bill's example.
Lynn, I'll look at the radiator ( that I bought from you ) again , and see what is involved in moving the flanges. Thanks a lot for the Service Letter. That clears up some confusion I had, on how it all goes together.
I have this question regarding the diagram and the parts depicted ............what or who is the source for the shims, various retainers, pads or pucks as they call them, etc.? I have the bolt, the push on nut and the regular nut on the bottom, as well as the spring. The spring I have is different, in that it is not stamped in such a way as to have a small lip at the two upper points of contact, that would keep the spring from turning, as shown in the Service Letter. I don't see that as a big difference.........is it?
Gary, thanks. Cooling Components is run by Vernon Walker's ( he owns NSRA) son, so yes I'm familiar with the company.
Thanks, Rich, Bill, Lynn and Gary............you are a wealth of knowledge, and I appreciate your willingness to share it.
John
I got my rubber pucks from Classic Auto Parts in OKC......probably a Carpenter product. At least as of 5 or 6 years ago, no one was reproducing any of the hard parts for that assembly that I ever found after extensive searching. I can get under my car and see if the shims are positioned so that I can get a caliper or micrometer on them to get you a thickness.
Rich,I appreciate the offer to get the measurement, but that won't be necessary. I'm going to a Man Mall (Read Junk Yard!) on Saturday, and there are several'57's a '58 and several '59's for me to examine and source parts from.
Do you, or anyone on the Forum know, if these shims and retainers are the same for all 3 years '57 '58 & '59?
Thanks
John
Guys, just reposting from what I collected on this forum concerning the front core support hardware ( and what Rich mentioned).
I think Lynn at one time ran a small badge of springs, or at least wanted to have them done, but I never got around purchasing one.
here's some further info I saved in my files
QuoteThe bolt major diameter is nominal 5/8", the threaded end is 3/8"NF. Overall length is 4", threaded length 5/8". Shims are
2 1/4" square 1/8" thick.
more
excellent info to add, Guenter. I posted a link in the technical links area to this thread. Too much important info assembled here tnot be able to find easily.
I bought the "pucks" from Carpenter and they were not correct, one should have a bigger hole. I called them and they were upset that this had happened. The shims are a fixed size and number, you vary the clearance by moving them from one side of the spring to the other as I recall. I have some extras if you need them. I would up using the original felt "puck".
Thanks, Rich, Guenter and Lynn. Very good information. Just what I needed. Going "shopping" at the Man Mall tomorrow. Hope these parts are there.
John
This area is ONE important thing on a 57!!
When you first see that assembly and how it carries the whole frontend you can hardly believe that. It is very important so that the frontend with fenders has plenty of room to work, while the chassis twists and bends from road impact. It's a true 3 point mechanical structure, being fixed at both the a pillars and just in the middle at the front. we all know how the body rubber mounts sag, and chassis twist from accident or hard use and how aligning 57 hoods, header panels and fenders can become a major pain. but the original design is very smart and leaves everything open for proper alignment. When I look at that front radiator core assemely, I still can't believe what they pulled off in Dearborn... Awesome thinking and engineering. WOW !
Guenter just think about the Retractable. It is mechanically genius, all done before computers and design software!
Just a thought but the front is connected in three places actually. the center core support bolt/spring and the two bumper ends. So does the bumper flex with the body or does the bumper hold the front end from flexing?
The bumper is pretty flexible. I think the inner fender to bumper bracket is to dampen the bumper vibration. The bumper would vibrate until it cracked and fell off.