Hi All - on my 57 Ford fairlane 500 63A body - I cannot find the solution to my door switches (which are new and confirmed to be good) they Will not turn the dome on/off when the doors are opened/closed.
The dome light does work using the dome switch.
I have traced wires and all looks to be correct.
The wiring at the driver door is correct with the green wire always being hot(12v) while the black wire is switched, however at the pass door both wires are always hot, black and green.
I cannot find where the added 12 volts is coming from.
Also I have changed out the main light switch as the old one was shot.. the door switches did not work before as well. I placed all wires as they were on the old light switch. I recall there are 3 green wires that operate the doors and dome light and all are on the same lug..
Any thoughts are appreciated. I have fixed all other electrical issues and this one has me stumped.
Thank you.
Peter
You have two paths for power to the dome light. The head light switch should have three green wires on the dome light switch. A green wire runs to both the door switches and to the dome light switch. The black wire on the drivers side should have two blacks on it, one of the blacks comes from the passenger side switch and the second black runs up to the dome light. The black wire from the drivers door switch hooks up to the dome light after the dome light switch.
Hi Bill
Thanks for your feedback, my wiring is defintely not as you mention, I have black and green at both doors and if I recall correctly only 1 of the 3 greens at the headlite switch is connected to one of those double connectors and then wires route from there to roof and doors same with the black wires..
I will pull the headlite switch to recheck routing of the wires..and hopefully get this corrected so I can move on from here.
I appreciate your help.
I'll let you know.
Peter
Bill, Not to get sidetracked, but if I wanted to just run wires to my domelight area before I installed my headliner, if I read you correctly above, I need to run 3 greens and 2 blacks?? and what gage would they be? I may want to get my headliner installed before I order my new aftermarket wiring is why I ask. Rich
Rich don't need three up to it. The first green (actually green/yellow) will go to the switch that turns on the dome light, the other two (also green/yellow) will go to each door switch, the black (actually black/blue) from the passenger switch will run to the drivers door switch and then the black/blue from the drivers door will go up to the dome (and courtesy light). Basically you need two wires to run up to the dome light, 16 ga. will work just fine.
The green/yellow is a +12V hot at all times, should be fed by a yellow. The black/blue is a switched +12V (door switches and dome light switch). The dome light is grounded at the roof support the dome light is mounted on.
Thanks again Bill. Rich
Hi Bill, Rich
I have been in AZ this week on business and I found a auto grave yard very close to one of my customers. So I went hunting and found some parts not available eslewhere for my 57.. very nice. wheile I was searching I also looked at several 57 and 58's for the dome wiring.. I wanted to report back that in 3-4 cars that had wiring in tact - it was the same as in my car.. 2 wires at each door (green/blk) and these wires connected at double connectors near the headlight switch. I assume the wiring is original considering the condition of these cars. This is different than you describe Bill, where you state there are 2 blue/black at driver and a green and 2 at passenger. Perhaps both wire pathways work but I thought I would share what I found. I still have not determined the reason for my pass. door switch to have both wires always with 12V and neither being switched. Obviously something is wrong somewhere, I am going to pull headlight switch and re-check dome wire connections (green). I am sure thet this is the reason neither door switch works to operate the dome..If you have any additional thoughts please let me know
Thanks again
Peter
Peter I was reading off a schematic, typically the connections are made where it is easiest for the production process. Given you found how they actually ran the wires you are up one on the problem.
Lets start to trouble shoot. First disconnect the wires at the door switches. The green should be hot, the black cold. This will eliminate a faulty switch. Leave them disconnected. If one of the blacks is hot trace it to a connector or to the source of the 12V. Correct that problem. Make sure it is connected to the black wire fromm the other door. Next find the black wire from the dome light that ties in after the dome light switch. Trace it back to the connector and ensure the black from the door switches is tied into it.
Connect one switch and see if the problem is corrected. If that switch works as it should, disconnect it and do the other switch. If it works properly go back and hook up the first switch and all should be well.
The harness is out of my car right now, I will dig it out and see if there is an obvious "easy mistake" someone could have done. The black/blue stripes are hard to see and distinguish from the dark green and solid black and at the light switch is the black/white wire that feeds your cigar lighter and clock and the clock light.
Hi Bill
thanks again for your patience and guidance.
I will retrace as you suggest. You mention blue/black and a solid black are there 2 differnt wires.. I have been somewhat casual about the exact color as I thought those to doors and to roof are the same color, I can easily distinquish green from others though.
I do know the wires to the roof are- green to 1 side of switch and the other to a connectory where 1 side or connector has a single wire and goes to lamp housing, the other side of connector has 2 wires the wire that comes from switch and the other short wire goes to other side of switch.. I believe these are correct. I will recheck how the 2 black- or black/blue wires connect up with the same color wire that goes to roof from what you say they have to meet at the same connector.
I am not sure what you meant about the black/white wire.. if you are asking if this feeds the lighter and clock I will chk.. when I ot the car the clock fuse connector was only 1/2 there and dnagling fom clock, I have since found the other side and I know it connects to double connector where the lighter is tied in.
on a separte subject since we are talking elec. connections, I am reinstalling the original radio that came with car, it is being refurbed.. and I will have it back next week.. the last owner put in a repro- digital radio.. not to my liking.. not that I am original freak but I do like the vintage look...can you tell me where does the radio power wire connect up?
Than you
Peter
Peter the radio is wired to the ACC position on the ignition switch. It has a 5 amp in line fuse that should be on a short lead coming out of the radio. Don't know if your car has the lead from the switch already in place or not. It is not part of the main harness.
Yes the black/white does feed the clock...just giving an example of the possibility of a wire being stuck in the wrong place.
I have gotten out my "book" to help with the door switch situation. The power for the dome light switch is fed off a 7 1/2 amp fuse on the head light switch. This is a single wire that goes into the main harness. The wire is green/yellow and runs into a three plug connector. All three wires in that connector are green/yellow. One of the wires runs up the windshield post, the other two go to the door switches. The black/blue wires from the door switches run to a three wire connector. One of the black/blue wires runs up the windshield post to the dome light. Both connectors are located just under the windshield post, just above the hood release. The green/yellow that runs up the windshield post goes to the dome light switch, the output of the switch is black/blue and goes to a connector in the light assembly. There should be three wires in that connector, all black/blue. One goes to the lamp, one goes to the dome lamp switch and the third runs down the windshield post.
Hope this helps, if not we'll try again with a new direction.
Thx bill
Will give another look
On radio I do not have the fuse connector so I will use one I have from radio shack
My rebuilt radio will be back in another week
Will let you know what I find on dome situation
Thx again
Much appreciated a's this dome thing is really driving me crazY on such a simple circuit
Bill
one question..
you say there is a single green wire from the harness that goes into the 3 wire connector.. I have seen this connector when I replaced the headlight switch.. and it goes onto a connector on the headlight switch.. doen't that just leave just 2 wires to route to doors as you noted.. I have all the correct wires going up to the roof and from your description the roof wiring is correct - but I need to see how other the roof wire is tied in
I'll report back once I pull the switch for a closer look...I'll be sure to draw a diagram.. I did thisonce but since you have given me the correct wire routing, I have to do it agaion to be sure but from what I recall mine is not as you have described
thanks
Peter
Hi again
I pulled the headlight switch an I was incorrect, I have found the 1 green wire that comes from harness and connects on the left side of the switch at the back f switch near the fuse holder, but instead of 3 wires connected to the dome (D) connector there is just 1 wire here, this green then plugs into 1 end of a double connector and on the other side of the double connector there is a single male connector with 2 green wires coming off this goes into 1 of female junctions on double connector and in the other female junction (on the same end) is the green wire that goes up column to roof.
then there is another double junction connector for black wires, there is 1 black on one end of this connector going up to roof (it is the same wire pair with green) and on the other end of double connector is another single male connector again with 2 black wires and these go to each door.
Electrically it seems like this wire schematic should work but as I mentioned the black wire at the pass. door is always hot as is the green wire at the door.
do you think it makes a difference that the 2 wires that go to door switches ARE NOT connected directly at the headlight switch where the 1 wire now connects?
Thanks for any thoughts
Peter
I finally solve my door switch problem the Black wire in the roof was broken. I got very luck and fished a wire across under the headliner to the front window column and down the column, it will be covered by the column garnish so no issue other than not being original.. but that is not a big deal to me, having the door switches work is a super win!!
thanks for all who offered their help!
my 57 is ready now to have my Le baron upholstery and door panels installed after a long winter of many repairs and updates.. part replacements and corrections I'll soon be be ready for the shows.. can't wait!
A twist on this topic...I picked up 2 dome light assemblies out of the salvage yard today. The prefered one I'd like to use is out of a Kia. It is a single lamp with a three position sliding switch (on, door operation, off). the connector has 3 wires(white, black, orange), and there is no apparent grounding mechanism. The unit was held to the roof via a magnet that was riveted to the plastic housing(so no grounding there). I'm thinking posibly one of the three wires is a ground. Is there any way to figure what wires I should run without having a schematic for the dome light?
Likewise my second unit is out of a 90's Crown Vic. it is a three lamp unit with two rocker switches to control the map lamps. It is grounded the traditional way with three screws running thru the brass sheet metal conductors and housing, and screwed to the roof. It's connector also has 3 wires(green, black,black/blue)
Rich the Kia unit will be easy. Put the switch to the "on" position and check for continuity between the three leads. One of them will be ground and the other will be 12V battery. Next put it in the "door" position and repeat the test between the three leads, the one that is common to both test will be the ground. If I were a betting man I'd bet the black is ground. I will have to go out and look at my CV dome light to see how it is wired up. Get back to you on that one.
awesome...thanks Bill. I finally got the insulation put up on the roof, and right now I'm running 3 wires up to the dome light...then gonna get some split coil wire wrap put on where it feeds thru the door post. After that I'll be able to get the headliner in, then decide which dome light looks best at that point. I need to call you some time next week to talk about my wiper motor..I think I have your phone number someplace, but if you could pm it to me again it would save alot of looking.
thanks again
Rich PM sent. The CV is most likely wired as such, the green is 12V, black/blue from the door switches and black the ground. Both of them that I have have no wires. Look on the inside, the runs will go to a lamp and to the two switches. The two switches get the 12V, the lamp gets the door switch signal and all three lamps should have a common run hooking them together, that is the ground. Be carefull mounting it as the screws (in mine at least) went into a non-conducting material glued to the roof.
If this makes no sense shoot me a pic of it....
Bill...thanks for checking it out. I got your PM. If I understand you correctly, the instalation in the CV was into a non conducting material, so those screws are NOT the ground, and I need to use some other mounting places where my mounting screws will not be thru the copper runs, so as not causing a short to the steel roof of the '57. It will be the CV unit I'll be using, by the way. I got my headliner up and ready for seam pulling and stretching, and I can tell I do not have enough depth for the Kia unit.
Yup, the copper runs are hot. In my 66 Ranchero I used a piece of plywood that just happened to jam between the only structure under the roof skin, still glued it up there, and glued a second piece on to it. Sorry no pics, that was over 10 years ago.
I'll figure something out for mounting...it'll be difficult to move the mounting hole location the way the inner piece is made. I just may use the original location and use nylon screws and threaded inserts on the roof.
Look at the nylon inserts the early (60s - 70s) Ford alternators used on the field and stator terminals to isolate the studs from the case.
Thanks for the suggestion. I found some rubber well nuts that will work "well" to isolate the mounting screws...I'll still use nylon screws to add to the assurance of no shorting out.
Bill, me choosing the Crown Vic dome light turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The new headlight switch I had purchased from Ron Francis would not have worked (without a $35. 'reversal' kit) with the old style ('57) dome light because the"modern style" headlight switches switch the ground rather than the old style positive switching.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2012-04-29 12:15
Rich PM sent. The CV is most likely wired as such, the green is 12V, black/blue from the door switches and black the ground. Both of them that I have have no wires. Look on the inside, the runs will go to a lamp and to the two switches. The two switches get the 12V, the lamp gets the door switch signal and all three lamps should have a common run hooking them together, that is the ground. Be carefull mounting it as the screws (in mine at least) went into a non-conducting material glued to the roof.
If this makes no sense shoot me a pic of it....
OK..I'm at this point finally. First off, I believe from what I am checking you are correct in how the CV dome light operated. Secondly, I'm a little confused as to exactly what you meant by "the lamp gets the door switch signal". Were you talking ground or hot? Added to the mix is I now have a headlight switch which has one
ground-switching wire to operate the domelight. I would like to have the switched map lights work at any time, but the shared ground seems like it is making that unlikely to happen( as far as my very limited expertise is concerned), without having the headlight switch in the dome-light-on position, or a door open. I can live with that if I have to, but I am wondering if there are any problems you can see with my alternative solution....
Since the "ground" is shared, is there any reason why I can't run the 12v allways hot to that black wire, making it a shared hot,and use the green and bk/bl wire as seperate grounds. I was thinking I could run the switched map lights ground to an always grounded terminal, and run the unswitched lamp ground wire thru the door switches and headlight switch.
If that sounds feasible, I'll draw a little schematic of what I was thinking and post it.
Thanks Rich
That will not let the map lights work. Run 12V on the door switches and forget the head light switch, you need 12V to the map light switches in the assembly for them to come on independently. The "lamp gets the door switch signal" is reference to the foil runs. The foil run that goes directly to the bulb in the center is the door switch wire.
Easy fix for this. Get a small relay, run 12V to the coil (86) and the wiper lug (30), tie the lug that is open (87) to the door switch line and run the ground for the relay coil (85) to the headlight switch "dome light" ground switch. I will draw up a scematic with realy numbers and hook ups tomorrow and post it.
You're the man Bill. Thanks. That's awesome."easy fix for this"..LOL..it'll take me a while to digest this. It'll take about 3 more notches for me to reach "layman" stage.
Where do the numbers for the relay come from...are you referencing a specific relay, or are those numbers standardized for all relays?, and what is the function of the relay...is it sending 12v power to the dome light when the ground from the headlight switch is closed?
Just last night I made a statement in the general discusion area about wiring kits from Ron Francis being generally easy, unless you are doing something off the norm, and then you're pretty much on your own. This is a perfect example..I just didn't expect it to come up so quickly after my post.when I called the RF tech line, and asked about how to wire up the door switches and dome light I was trying to use, I got more questions than answers...although after I hung up I got to thinking the questions they were asking made sense if they had wrongfully assumed I was trying to hook up to existing dome light/door switch wiring.
P.S. Just picked up a relay at AutoZone, so I now know the numbers you refered to are standard on all relays. I picked one up that had the 87A lug, but I had the option of a relay without that lug. Is that what I should have gotten? Got to thinking on the way home I should have picked up a pre-wired plug-in. I know I can just use female disconnects, but with the plug-in I won't have to worry about which wire goes where 5 years from now if I have to unplug or replace it.
Rich you got a handle on this stuff! 87A don't matter, it does nothing in this application. I would recommend getting the plug for it, just too easy... :001:
Bill...we're gettin' there...but of course I have some questions.
1. On the schematic you drew an arrow from 30 to 87a, and then a short line out of 87a. From your last post, you said 87a doesn't matter, so I'm not sure what's what on that.
2. the wire from 87/door switches you show going to the dome light. It's the blk/blue wire on the dome light that feeds the center, unswitched, bulb. I believe it's this bk/bl wire you want me to hook 87/door switches to. Is that correct?
3.what do I do with the ground wire out of the dome light? You're showing the dome light grounded on the schematic, and since we are switching power rather than ground now, I'm assuming the dome light can now just be grounded in the normal sense?? (I realize I still can't attach the light to the roof with conducting materials because the mounting holes go thru the 'foil runs')
4. (and you thought I had a handle on it..lol)...Am I running a (4th) power feed up to the green wire on the dome light? 4th: one for door switches, one each for #30 and #86
Thanks for your patience Bill.
Rich
Bill...we're gettin' there...but of course I have some questions.
1. On the schematic you drew an arrow from 30 to 87a, and then a short line out of 87a. From your last post, you said 87a doesn't matter, so I'm not sure what's what on that. "Sorry for the confusion, that arrow represents the relay arm that moves when the solinoid has power applied."
2. the wire from 87/door switches you show going to the dome light. It's the blk/blue wire on the dome light that feeds the center, unswitched, bulb. I believe it's this bk/bl wire you want me to hook 87/door switches to. Is that correct? "Yes."
3.what do I do with the ground wire out of the dome light? You're showing the dome light grounded on the schematic, and since we are switching power rather than ground now, I'm assuming the dome light can now just be grounded in the normal sense?? "Yes, that is correct." (I realize I still can't attach the light to the roof with conducting materials because the mounting holes go thru the 'foil runs')
4. (and you thought I had a handle on it..lol)...Am I running a (4th) power feed up to the green wire on the dome light? "You will run power (battery) to the green wire, it will go to the switches for the map lights." 4th: one for door switches, one each for #30 and #86 "No, just one wire from the junction point of the door switches and the 87 terminal..Thanks for your patience Bill.
Rich
font=Verdana][/font]Forgive me if I am getting too basic......the easiest way to do the wire hook up is pick a 12V battery source at the fuse panel and run that wire to the drivers door switch, run a second wire from that wire to the other door switch and another wire to terminals 86 & 30 on the relay. Next run a wire from the second terminal on the passenger switch to the second terminal on the drivers door switch, connect that terminal on the drivers door switch to terminal 87 on the relay and then run that wire to the center light in the dome light assembly. From the same 12V battery source at the fuse panel run a second wire to the switches in the dome light assembly. You should have a total of two wires going up to the dome light assembly, three if you want to run the ground down to under the dash. Last but not least hook up terminal 85 to the switched ground in the head light switch.
Aaaawwwwesome Bill...I got it straight finally. Thanks a ton for your patience. No need to apologize for being basic...that's what I need and why I keep saying I'm a novice. Hopefully I'll get it done tommorrow.
I ordered some 10 ga sxl wire tonight to finish laying out the lines to the back that I need or may need later. After using the sxl wire I bought when I started this, and what I got with the RF kit, I just can't bring myself to using the primary stuff sold in the chain stores....even though the sxl costs 4x as much, the peace of mind is worth it. I was amazed to see how much difference there was with it when I first got it.
Thanks...I owe you a beer
Maybe a bit late here but this might help some peeps understand these relays.
Scroll to about 1/3 of the way down the page to where it says
The Famous Bosch Relay & check out the interactive demos below that, about 1/2 way down the page. The most useful things I saw on the page. There are a couple of them & you can switch them off, on, disconnect power & so on.
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
Pix of them ...
Closed switch
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/relay1.jpg)
Open switch
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/relay2.jpg)
Power disconnected
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/relay3.jpg)
That's one of the best teaching sites I've ever seen. lots of interesting links, and I love the interactive part. I added that one to my favorites list..gonna have to spend alot of time there. It's mostly an auto audio site, but even if you're not doing audio, there's a wealth of info such as the different types of relays you brought up, how they work, and how to use them. Thanks for posting that link Tom, I'm going to add it in our tech info links board.
Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2012-08-08 08:27I'm going to add it in our tech info links board.
Cool! (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/THUMB.gif) Glad I could contribute something deemed to be good info. Tacked on something there.
Yup...good info there. His basic electronics and theory of operation are pretty much spot on. Great site!
Got the dome light wiring all done yesterday except for the actual dome light which is not mounted yet. (Funny, I found out yesterday that dome light I got at a salvage yard is the same as the one in the Mark viii sitting in my back yard.) I'm not real happy with my planning on the layout of the wiring...5 splices in one area near the fuse panel doesn't make for a nice neat installation. I may go back in and replace 2 of the wires that are too short to let me move the 'congestion' of wires up out of the way.
I was thinking this morning maybe I coulda/shoulda have used a small terminal strip in place of the splices to keep the wires routed neater.
I did find a way to splice two wires to one neatly. I used 1/4" fully insulated disconnects, except I paired up a 10 gage with a 16 gage. The 10/12 gage size on one end is just barely large enough for 2 16 ga wires.
I'm finding out there aren't a whole lot of options, at least in the auto zones,etc, for crimp type splices. I'm not real crazy about the blue quick-splice 'no cutting' fittings, and they don't work with the sxl wire anyway.