Just for comparison, what was the wheel width of the oem wheels? I'm getting ready to order a trial wheel, and I'm trying to figure out if 6" width for the front is adequate, or if I'm better off with the 7's. More accurate would be...I'm wondering which would make for better handling...a 6 or 7" wheel.
Also, I don't have an unmounted oem wheel to check, but if I'm correct in measuring inside the wheel where the tire mounts, the oem's are somewhere around 5-5 1/4??...as close as I can eyeball it with a tire on.
Rich,
This HAMB thread has the info you're looking for.... 14 x 5" on sedans, 14 x 5.5 on Rancheros and Wagons. Both have .62(5?)" positive offset.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/anyone-know-the-factory-offset-on-a-57-ford-14-wheel-from-back-lip-to-mount-surface.567481/
I have been told 15 x 7" wheels with 4.25 backspace will hit the SWT swaybar at full lock.
Thanks Lynn...Think I'm gonna go with 6" width for the front. I'm going to try these...the 6" has a 3.5 backspacing, and the 7 has a 4.25 btw,
http://www.jegs.com/i/Rocket-Wheels/968/R31-566535/10002/-1?parentProductId=1299609
odd...??....I was just on the site linked above and noticed the 8" wheels list the backspace at 3.75. That's less than the backspace on a 7"! seems odd to me, but I just verified that info, and it's correct. Not that I'm going with 8" on the front, but just wanted to make sure the 7" listed backspace was correct. I'm just going to order 1 wheel for now and use that for seeing what I need on the back as well as making sure I like them...free shipping, but I don't want to pay for return shipping on 2 wheels if I don't like them. Still haven't decided 100% on a 6" or 7" for the front.
The 4.25 is correct on the 7 inch wheel, Rich. Most off the shelf 8 inch wheels will have a BS that is useless on our cars unless your axle housing is narrowed.
Thanks James. I ordered a 15 x 7 Rocket polished Igniter wheel for the front this morning. I'll use it to get a reference for the fit on the back with alot of calculating...I'm planning/hoping on the 8's for the back, and my housing will be narrowed. If it fits, and I like it, I'll order the second one right away. James, what is the interference on the "most 8" wheels being useless...I'm assuming since you references a narrowed housing, the interference is with the inner fender and not the springs?? If I'm figuring this correctly, with the 8" wheel being an inch wider than the 7", and a 1/2" smaller backspace, the wheel/tire will end up being 1 1/2 closer to the fender than a 7"...easy to see why they may not work, even with a 3/4 per side narrowed housing. I guess I'll be finding out for sure before too long.
Lynn....interference with the 7" rims hitting the aftermarket sway bar at full lock should be easily remedied with wheel spacers....which may/may not require longer studs. Looking at Utube videos last night, apparently this is a common problem with smaller aftermarket wheels and many suspensions.
A good cheap wheel for set-up is a mopar cop car 15x7.
Ron.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-07-29 13:00
Rich,
This HAMB thread has the info you're looking for.... 14 x 5" on sedans, 14 x 5.5 on Rancheros and Wagons. Both have .62(5?)" positive offset.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/anyone-know-the-factory-offset-on-a-57-ford-14-wheel-from-back-lip-to-mount-surface.567481/
I have been told 15 x 7" wheels with 4.25 backspace will hit the SWT swaybar at full lock.
I got the Rocket igniter in this afternoon, and I can pretty much confirm what you were told, Lynn. At full lock (R&P), I put a straightedge on the backside of the wheel and measured out to the intersection with the swaybar. It's only 3 1/4", so surely any tire other than the low profile tires rubber band tires are gonna hit. I will verify that though tommorrow when I can go look at tires. Tommorrow also, I'll check the wheel on the back. It looks like this is gonna end up being 6's on the front and 7's on the back. That's ok with me though, that 7" is a surprisingly wide wheel (for a non racing guy of course)!!
BTW, in case you missed it in the technical diagrams board...a link to a really sweet tire conversion site...
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireMath.do
I picked up a tire for the 7" igniter this morning. I chose a 235/70/15 and I'm real happy with it. The 235/70 translates toa 9.25 width, 6.48 height 27.9 diameter. I have 3/8 clearance to the fender inner lip at the backside/top of the opening. No problem mounting the wheel, although I do not have shocks on it at this time. I may reconsider having the differential narrowed and changing to disc brakes. It's not a super wide tire, but adequate for me.
LOL...well, the light finally came on. Am I the last one on the planet to figure out what the modern tire size designations meant?? I'm looking at the conversion chart I linked to earlier, and trying to figure out why heights varied when two tires being compared both had the 70 number in the middle. It finally dawned on me it's a percentage(70%) of the tire width, and that tire width is given in centimeters, so 255 tire would be just a tad over 10" (255 divided by 25.4=10.04), and a 255/50 would have a height of 5.02. Who the heck needed a conversion chart except me??
As long as the light still comes on, we are doing OK! :003:
I worry when it is dim...........
Rich, I'm a chart guy too. I had no clue either. Your car looks great, the tire and wheel combo really makes it look tough, great job on all of your creativity.
well,#@$!!!!*!! I found out late friday my second 7" igniter wheel for the back is on backorder. They said Sept.1, which wouldn't have been too bad, but I called Rocket direct this morning to confirm that. The shipment on it's way (from China, unfortunatly) does not include the size I need, so he is "guessing a minimum of a few months. I called all the stocking distributors and none in stock anywhere, so now what to do?? I unfortunatly had the tire mounted one one, and the two 6" are on their way. I can wait a few months if I have to, but I'll be a ball of nerves waiting to find out for sure that it is still going to be available at some point. Damn!!
Also annoying..paypal money tied up for months.
I'm thinking about other options...ordering a grey centered wheel, if available, and spending hours sanding and polishing.....(the paint is over the as cast.)
The coulda, woulda, shoulda's...should have checked availability of two directly with Rocket before I placed the order for one. My best laid plans of checking the first one for fitment and ordering the second really quick was a waste. The Rocket guy said in fact I did get the last one they had, so if I had ordered two instead of trying to save a few bucks return shipment if they didn't work ended up costing me...typical.
Edit..I just talked with the Rocket guy again..the wheels are in fact already on order, they just didn't make it in the first batch shipped out, so he is hoping it will be in fact less than a few months. They do have "lots" of the correct size grey centered in stock if I decide to go that route.
Rich, I found one on eBay for what its worth....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/15X7-ROCKET-RACING-IGNITER-GASSER-WHEEL-5X4-5-POLISHED-/130487654653?hash=item1e61ab98fd&vxp=mtr
The Ebay ones say 4.25 back spacing, will that work?
Thanks Lynn....awesome...I just checked Ebay yesterday morning!! I'll try to call them to make sure it's actually in stock and not being drop shipped. Yeah,Jim, same backspace as what I've got now.
They do not stock them...they were going to have it drop shipped from Rocket...Thanks anyway, Lynn.
Bummer... I thought it was worth a shot.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-08-07 21:41
.....have 3/8 clearance to the fender inner lip at the backside/top of the opening....
I've watched this discussion with interest. I have a couple of cautions that have not been mentioned.
1) since you are test fitting a new wheel/tire combo, you might want to test fit on both sides of your car. Differences are not uncommon.
2) 3/8" is NOT enough clearance. Leaf springs (even with the extra wagon leaf) with rubber bushings will allow the rear end to shift more than 3/8" in curves and cornering. The bigger, front sway bar may help, rear sway bar may help, poly bushings may help but 3/8" will disappear and your new paint will get scorched and your new tires will be scuffed. If you change your suspension to a triangular 4-link with heims joints or solid bushings, 3/8" is enough. If you change to 4-link with panhard bar with heims or solid bushings, 3/8" might be enough. I know these are bold statements but wheels, tires and paint are to expensive to have to replace due to inadequate clearance.
You have also mentioned the possible future rear disc brake upgrade. The rotor is almost an 1/8" thicker than the brake drum. So now, you have 1/4" clearance. Some rear disc brake conversions require a .250" (1/4") spacer added between the axle bearing and axle bearing flange. This space pushes the axle a 1/4" closer to the fender. Now you have no fender/tire clearance.
How do I know...one of my '57s has 3/8" tire/fender clearance with triangular 4-link. 10k miles and no tire scuff on the sidewalls. My '57 wagon is OEM with 3/8" clearance and every corner the tires rub. At highway speeds, by the end of a curve, I smell smoke!!
Hey Gary....good to see you posting again...I was wondering about you for awhile.
I checked my body for centering a long time ago when I was remounting the body, and it is pretty close, but it will get checked again. That 3/8 is actually not to the fender lip itself, but to the flange of the inner wheel well. When I rebuilt the wheelwells, I made the new flanges a little wider. End result is the same of course, but should I need to trim a bit, it'll be easier.
One of the last biggies on my list is the rear end. Aside from 3.50 trac-loc and disc brakes, I was planning on narrowing each side 3/4...maybe I should go to an inch per side.
The other consideration now that I know I don't have a big problem with getting the tire on/off, is not converting to discs. The main reason for that was more clearance...but in some respects, as you mentioned, there may be less clearance (or at least different...dia's vs length, )
Gary, that is great info. When I first got my car, It had 15x7, 4.00 B.S. on the rear and 14x6, 2.75 B.S. on the front. I swapped them around (to see how far out I could move the rear wheels) and the tires rubbed on the back on one side in a corner, even at very slow speeds. Rich, I can BARELY put my rear wheel tire combo on my car now with the shocks attached (225/60, 15x7, 4.25 B.S.). You may want to double check that while you wait on your wheels or plan rear brakes or rear end narrowing.
I had also planned on using '5655 shocks, as Jim Nolan is, which allows the axel to drop down further than a '57 shock.
I guess the only reason I wouldn't narrow and change to discs now is for the cost savings....so it probably will all get done eventually.
Very interested in the shock thing. I have Gabriel Hijacker air shocks now, wondering what a modest extension might do. I haven't tried disconnecting the shocks to put the wheel/tire on. Seems I remember jacking the rear end up to fit the shocks...For me at this point rear discs and/or narrowing the rear end are way down my "wish list" as well.
Not way down on my wish list...It's next on the list...just waiting for some $ to do it. After I get tires for the two 6" wheels that were delivered today, I've got to pay some attention to new rear springs, shocks, (front and back) I've also got to find out from Pat Fleischman who it was in Lubbock that he uses for all his differentioal work, and try to get a cost nailed down on that. I don't know if he can supply the trac loc and discs, or if i need to start picking up the components. I'll continue my looking for a rear already done the way I want just in case somebody actually has one for sale.
Jim..btw, you asked about the 4 1/4 backspace..... which is fine for the back, too close for the front if you have the Concorse sway bar as I do. The 6" have a 3 1/2 bs which should be just fine. Now I've got to figure a tire size for those so I can get them on order.
Lynn...here's a link to Jim's shock thread:
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=2674.msg15175#msg15175
Not sure if just an extension on the '57 shocks would work...i wouldn't think so.
I think I get the back space thing mixed up. My Cragars are 3 1/2 or 3 3/4 I forget, and they barely go on so I guess the 4 1/4 moves the wheel closer to the spring?
Not sure I could have answered that a month ago,...same with tire sizes. I just didn't pay much attention till the time came when I had to know. LOL...I even now know the difference between offset and backspace.
The short answer...Yes, a bigger backspace will move the wheel closer to the spring.
You know I gotta give a long answer........from what I understand, offset is a European thing and the dimensions are usually given in metrics. For all practical purposes, we don't really need an offset measurement, but for the record....offset is the distance from the center of the wheel to the mounting surface of the wheel. Positive and negative offset dimensions are determined by whether the mounting surface is inward or outward from the wheel centerline. From there you can do the math to add or subtact the offset to 1/2 the outside width of the wheel to determine backspace. Frankly I don't remember which way the neg and pos dimensions are, but as I said, most of us won't care...it's alot of calculating when you can just use the given backspace dimension. I'm sure there are alot of suspension/handling gurus that want to know where the centerline of the wheel is.
Backspace is the distance from the mounting surface to the outside of the back rim. It is not to where the tire mounts...which is where wheel widths are dimensioned. (a 7" wheel actually measures about 8" on the outside)
So....combining everything mentioned, if you had a 7" wheel with a zero offset, the backspace will be 4". As I said, no need to even be concerned with offset for most of us...I just included it in the discusion because I see guys using the term when they really are talking backspace.
Positive offset moves the wheel inward and reduces the track width. Negative offset moves the wheel outward. Negative offset increases spring loads (on the front) and bearing loads and increases steering effort. The center of the "contact patch" of the front tire is a point used in suspension geometry design, moving it affects the handling of the car.
Rich, good info on the shocks, thanks.
Rich give the 95 - 01 Explorer rear a hard look. They are 59.5" wide. Shortening one side to center the pinion, using a second short axle from the same year would probably come in close to even on cost. Many many Exploeres came with T-lock. 3.55, 3.73 and 4.11 were available ratios with 3.73 the hardest to find. They have an easy to hook up emergency brake system and the best part over the counter parts for years to come.
I'm gonna copy your post and start a different thread on that. I'll do it in the General Tech board since we've got seperate boards for engines and trannys, but not one for the 3rd member.
I've probably got a bunch of tire size questions coming up for the front for the guys that have had issues with tire and ground clearance problems with the HD sway bar/dropped spindles.
Somebody here...I'm thinking it was Jim/Hiball, had ground clearance problems with a lowered front end. I'm hoping whoever it was sees this and chimes in. I'm hoping to find out how their front end was lowered (dropped spindles like mine?), if they had the concorse sway bar, and what their front tire sizes are.
I was originally thinking about picking up an additional inch of rake on the car with the tires. The diameter of the 235/70-15's on the back is 27.95, and I'm looking at 205/70-15's for the front, which has a dia. of 26.3. Not sure if that's gonna get me into a ground clearance issue or not. Kinda hard to tell on a dirt floor.
Rich, thanks for the info, I've read so many post on this subject that I get confused LOL. The biggest problem for me is getting the wheels off and on, once they are on everything as far as clearance is fine. The more I thought about it, and thats dangerous LOL, I'm wondering if part of the problem is the Ranchero/Wagons use a wider brake drum, so I assume the axle and drum set out a little further toward the fender ?.
PS; I hope your rims weren't setting on the dock in China that blew up :003:
Dock blew up??...probably! but I will say I had thought more along the lines that the ship sank in a storm, or the US dockworkers would go on a 6 month strike.
Just saw the dock handles hazardous materials so you are safe on that one.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-08-12 15:56
Very interested in the shock thing. I have Gabriel Hijacker air shocks now, wondering what a modest extension might do. I haven't tried disconnecting the shocks to put the wheel/tire on. Seems I remember jacking the rear end up to fit the shocks...For me at this point rear discs and/or narrowing the rear end are way down my "wish list" as well.
Lynn...several guys on the Hamb are using extensions, and have been for years. Both say they have had no issues with them.
(some info moved to brake related)
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-08-13 08:18
Somebody here...I'm thinking it was Jim/Hiball, had ground clearance problems with a lowered front end. I'm hoping whoever it was sees this and chimes in. I'm hoping to find out how their front end was lowered (dropped spindles like mine?), if they had the concorse sway bar, and what their front tire sizes are.
I was originally thinking about picking up an additional inch of rake on the car with the tires. The diameter of the 235/70-15's on the back is 27.95, and I'm looking at 205/70-15's for the front, which has a dia. of 26.3. Not sure if that's gonna get me into a ground clearance issue or not. Kinda hard to tell on a dirt floor.
That was me :003: I have the Granada spindles which lowers the front and I've had the sway bar brackets bottom out a few times, but I'm also running 215/70/14's which doesn't help.
I found another issue on the rear also, after installing the rear sway bar you can't jack it up one one side and remove the rear tire, you have to jack up both sides so the sway bar allows the rear end to drop evenly :005:
Carry two jacks on a road trip??.....I think I'll see how my car does without a rear sway bar. I'm glad you brought that up, thanks.
front tire sizes..probably a redundant question, but what is the backspace on your front wheels? Do you have tire rub on the sway bar at full lock?
BTW, the 205/70/15 tire size I was contemplating for the front is less than a 1/4" difference in height vs yours. Your dia. I think is 25.85, mine would be 26.3
If you ever want to raise your front end an inch, I believe the Granada spindles can be reamed out so they drop all the way down on the ball joints giving a 1 1/2 drop. I think most of us probably ordered the 2 1/2 drop from drop n stop, and I'm assuming that's what yours is.
Rich I have the same 215/70/14 on the front, I'm not sure of the backspace on the Cragars but I think Lynn said it was 3.5 in an old post. I had never thought about the tire hitting the sway bar until after reading an earlier post about it. After all the driving I have done I couldn't see and mark on the tire or bar indicating a rub. But one day when it was jacked up I turned the wheel to full lock and the tire did hit the bar. I guess under normal driving and I've made some sharp turns/ and a few U turns I guess it never went to full lock.
I'll need two jacks or disconnect the sway bar on one side. I haven't given it a lot of thought because I don't even have a spare tire :003:
Buy good tires...no jacks...no spares...carry plastic in your wallet!!!!
For the stray nail, I carry a plug kit and have on board air for the air bags. I've found you can't carry all the parts and tools you might need.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2015-08-20 19:51
I've found you can't carry all the parts and tools you might need.
X2....found over the years just a couple of things to get you to help. Couple of scew drivers, wrenches, pliers, couple of feet of wire and a good used fan belt to keep the water pump turning. If you still run points, the old set that came out at the last tune up.
I called Rocket to get an update on my second 7" wheel for the back, and they couldn't give me a definite date but did assure me at some point in time...at least 2-3 months, the wheel will be available. So....I went ahead and bought 2 front tires and had them mounted.
just to review....front= 6" wide wheels, 15" dia with a 3.5 backspace. I purchased 205-70-15 tires which will give me an added .83 to the back to front rake (235/70-15's on the back). The good news is, at full lock I have about 5/8" clearance to the Concourse aftermarket sway bar. Yeah!!
Gonna go put the 2nd front tire on.
No issue with the lug studs (Granada discs), btw. I did get my Rocket bullet chrome lug nuts in today, and along with them I ordered one open lug nut so I could get a visual on the thread engagement. Their open lug nut ended up flush with the stud end at hand tight, so I'll call that good.
Rich, how do you luck out getting a seven inch wide rim and tire to fit up and in on the back? I am running 14x7;s and have to let the air almost completely out of the tire to get it up and in. In case I get a flat rear tire, I bought a cigarette lighter plug in type of air compressor and keep it in the trunk. I can then let the air out of my new spare, put it up and in, and then re-inflate it. Also won't use the old style bumper jack, as they are hard on these new re chrome bumpers. Use a scissors jack and rigged up half inch drive socket system to crank the jack easier.
bigger dia wheel = more clearance to get by things. Also tire size has alot to do with it. I'm running 235/70/15's. May be a difference in backspace also... mine are 4.25. And, I don't have shocks on yet, but planning on shocks for a '55 passenger car, so shouldn't change the ability to drop the axel far enough.
How much clearance do you have when the car is sitting on the ground? Mine has actually settled back in after all the jacking up and down, and then driving it a bit. I now have a little over 1/2 clearance now tire to fender lip. I assume you are jacking the car up under the frame, correct?
Not really lucking out though...I ordered one to try it out. I hope the second one gets shipped before the end of the year.
I am jacking it from the bottom of the frame. Do you think the rear shocks I am running with the coil spring on them are not allowing the rear housing to come down quite far enough? Measuring from the tire sidewall to the inner quarter flange, I have 2 5/8 inches. Measuring from the edge of the rim to the inner quarter flange, I have 3 3/4 inches. Didn't give any thought about shocks until you mentioned it.
You have 2 " more clearance than me?? wow! Are you running a wheel with a really deep backspace?
I didn't have that much with my old tires.
Yes, most guys with big tires that are pretty much otherwise unmodified have to loosen the shocks to let the axel drop far enough to get their tires off. We've had several threads going on this, mostly a result of Jim Nolan's experimenting with different shocks. He found '55 passenger car shocks would let the axel drop another few inches so he could get his tires on/off at the drag strip without it being a major hastle. I'll try and find the thread...think I have it archived. Downside only comes into play if you carry heavy loads, as the car will bottom out sooner than the stock setup, but I can't imagine even the Ranchero owners having a problem unless they're hauling engines with them on a regular basis.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=2674.msg15175#msg15175
Thanks Rich. I checked out the posts, and Jim Nolan found the Monroe matic 31125 shock that fits a 55 Ford increased the travel length. I will check into that. Good luck in getting your wheel shipped.
Quote from: clusterbuster on 2015-09-07 18:46
I am jacking it from the bottom of the frame. Do you think the rear shocks I am running with the coil spring on them are not allowing the rear housing to come down quite far enough? Measuring from the tire sidewall to the inner quarter flange, I have 2 5/8 inches. Measuring from the edge of the rim to the inner quarter flange, I have 3 3/4 inches. Didn't give any thought about shocks until you mentioned it.
The best way to check and see if longer shocks will give you more tire changing clearance is to disconnect them. I have 15 x 7/ 4.25 BS-225/60 tires and they BARELY fit with Gabriel Hijackers shocks. I am considering earlier spec longer air shocks for wider tires. I think 15" wheels give more clearance for tire changes than 14".
Just for reference, this fix using the 55 shock can't be used on Ranchero/Wagons, the shock top mounting is different.
Wheels....when I decided on the Rocket Igniters, I wasn't aware they had a wheel visualizer, never mind one that actually has a 57 Ford! Two actually, a satin black Custom 2 dr and a Fairlane Satin Black 2 dr htp.
http://www.rocketracingwheels.com/wheel_visualizer.php
Rich,
Did you notice on the visualizer the Fairlane 500 had a 1958 Fairlane Hood?
Hey Thor...how are ya?
Yeah...I noticed one of them did.....and I'm not even going to tell them a Custom is not a submodel of the Fairlanes, lol...at least they got our Fords on there. It's surprising how many people call a Custom a Fairlane.
Rich,
I was at a car show once (15 years or so ago) with a couple of guys talking about a 1957 Ford Custom parked next to a "Custom stretched 1957 Ford" and all the work that must have gone into getting it done. It was a 1957 Fairlane in primer with no chrome or emblems :-\.
Funny...sounds like something I'd do. At the Pavilion in Phoenix, I was looking at a gorgeous 50ish "mercury" thinking about how much work it was to do all the subtle mods. Then I realized it was a Hudson.