57fordsforever.com

So I have bought my first 57 Ford. I've got a lot of experience with hot rod projects, mostly GM cars and trucks from the 60's and early 70's. My current project is a 67 Cougar, which will be winding down over the next months. I heard about this car that was in a neighbors backyard, posted about it here for advice, and then bought it.

So now I have a bit more information about it. It is not a survivor car, like it initially looked like. The previous owner spent a lot of money on restoring it over the 42 years he owned it, the last big spend occurring in 87 and 88. The car was parked in 93 with the body done, and fairly new paint, but the interior was worn out and based on documentation that came with the car, the engine and trans are worn out as well.

I'm a hot-rodder, all the way - but personally to me, the idea of messing with an original stock car that is nearly 60 years old and all original... that idea makes me sick. So my plan was to carefully restore it (a project style I haven't done before). But now, I know the motor may not be able to come back without a full rebuild, and the transmission may be in the same state. According to a letter from a restoration shop in 87, they both were just plain worn out. There isn't any receipts or other docs in the file to indicate that either was replaced or rebuilt - and the letter says the motor was already bored 60 over from some previous rebuild.

The body appears real solid, the floorboards appear in great condition (no carpet there to cover anything up). Only the hood appears to have some rust issues under the paint, and the front bumper is a rusty mess.

I found some new hubcaps all wrapped up in the back, I don't know if they are NOS or reproductions or what. They are the same as the ones that were on the car which looked like they could be polished up anyway. But I have to admit - when I bolted on the tires from my Cougar to get it home, those white letter tires and the torq-thrust wheels look REALLY good to me.

So what is the general consensus about how much more is a restored car worth than a resto-mod style? Generally, I prefer a car that looks pretty stock except for some after market wheels and tires, preferably 15 inch wheels. looks mostly stock in the interior, maybe some gauges and a stereo, but under the hood has a hot motor and has been upgraded to disc brakes, power steering, AC, etc.. I prefer a car that drives great, stops great, handles great, but looks like it may have back in '65 or so.

So is doing that king of a build going to make the car worth much less than doing a full restoration? I fear that if I get into rebuilding that motor and trans I will have too much invested in the car, and will have a car I personally don't enjoy driving that much because it's so original. I would rather sell the car to someone that loves them that way and wants it to be restored if that is a better future for the car.

Decisions, decisions, what do you guys think?
Bill

Here are some more pictures of the car.
Some are from before I got it home.

And a couple more...

The most expensive '57 (Custom 300 Tudor) I have knowledge of was an Amos Minter mild resto-mod sold at Mecum for $75K. maybe 2-3 years ago. It had a 428 CJ and a toploader, stock exterior and interior with other updates. To me it is a matter of taste but I don't think a pure restoration is necessarily the financially wise way to go unless the car has a special history....

At the end of the day the car is yours so it is your choice as to what you do with it. As long as you don't butcher it, and you retain the integrity of the car, it can be put back to stock at any time. It is reasonably easy to upgrade running gear, steering, suspension and brakes and still be able to return it to stock if so desired. There is a mountain of information on this forum, and plenty of people willing to share advice whichever way you decide to go.
It would be an interesting exercise to see if you can get the motor fired up and see what it does run like though.

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-11-02 17:04
To me it is a matter of taste but I don't think a pure restoration is necessarily the financially wise way to go unless the car has a special history....

That makes sense to me, and there isn't something special about this car's history, it is just a cool old car.

Quote from: junior58 on 2015-11-02 18:49
It would be an interesting exercise to see if you can get the motor fired up and see what it does run like though.

Absolutely. No matter what I ultimately do, I am going to start with trying to get that 312 running. If it runs even marginally well, that will give me time to work on other parts of the car. I would love to get the brakes, electrical and interior sorted before doing a drivetrain swap. Besides, I am just finishing up putting a new crate motor and trans into my Cougar - just talking about spending all that money on another car would not make for a happy wife. I am still amazed she didn't freak out when I told her I wanted to buy another project car. She told me later than she knew I would buy it after I initially told her what I'd found, even though the car wasn't actually for sale. She knows me better than I know me :003: :003: :003:

I totally agree with Lynn and Steve. I think in the end you've got to do what makes you happy. We've got a very eclectic group of guys here, so you're gonna get some varying opinions on what they would do if it were theirs, but I think just about everybody will tell you not to be concerned with it ending up non-stock if that's what you want. I think it would be a major mistake on your part to build it as a full restoration if that's not your thing...but you already said that.
Money wise...trying to reatore a mid-fifties Ford is not like restoring a mid fifties Chevy...not by a LONG shot. The stuff you need for a full restoration would have to be aquired the hard and expensive way, not thru reasonably priced reproduction parts. Unfortunatly, Fords are not supported like the tri five Chevys. The ocational oem/nos parts you see on Ebay are often crazy priced.
In a nutshell, a factory restoration is incredibly expensive, and most of the high dollar cars I've seen are in fact resto-mods, not restorations. Of course, that is exclusive of the rare e and f code cars of any model. If yours were E or f code, you'd be nuts to do anything but a full restoration. jmho.
PLEASE...no ratrod!!!

Everybody seems to be pretty much on the same page in that, when its all said and done your the one that has look at it and be able to say "yep, that is exactly what i was looking for." Getting opinions is great, I got some helpful ones today, but build it for yourself and you won't be sorry.

btw, just those wheels made a huge difference!

Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-11-02 20:55
btw, just those wheels made a huge difference!

Yeah - I love those wheels on there. It's going to bug me when I pull them off to put them back on the other car.

I got the interior cleaned out. The floorboards actually looked pretty good, except there is a patch on the drivers side. I haven't climbed under the car to see what is under the patch yet.

I haven't been able to open the tailgate yet. I think there is something jammed underneath that is stopping it from opening, so I am going to try pull the floorboards to see if there is something jammed in there.

That patch is covering the infamous, most common rust area on '57 Fords. It is caused by a poorly engineered cowl drain, which is made from rubber. At the ends of the cowl, inside, next to the side panels are two metal drain tubes that stop an inch from actually exiting outside the side panels. Ford used a rubber flanged tube to complete the routing to the outside. Works great as long as the rubber is good, but typical of old rubber, they decay and then end up dumping any water that enters the cowl vent right into the inside cabin.
In that second pic, is that water on the floor from washing the car? if it is, that's exactly what I was talking about.
I'm not sure if anybody has figured out a way to replace those rubber tubes without removing the fender.!?

I did manage to change mine without pulling the fenders....barely. I used the braille method.

I did the 57 Ranchwagon without pulling the fenders.  Getting the old ring out wasn't too bad, getting the first screw to line up and start was the "king of patience" test!

Wow, good to see this wagon in posession of a forum member now! I hear some doubts in your questions and a Del Rio should not really be a car, that you think about money wise too much. It is very special and BEAUTIFUL, and a terrific car to cruise, drive and have in daily use. It will get looks everywhere and at the same time will haul more stuff than a short bed truck. it easily sleeps 2, when you take it for long distance shows. it's simply a blast. well. that much said it is still wise for you to think about your financial possibilities, and a lot of engine swaps can be done to a 57 without ever hurting any of the og panels. it will cost much less and not hurt the resale value in comparison to the og drivetrain, because most everybody likes a reasonably priced, driving car better than a high dollar og resto, that might still have its short comings ( bored too much over, overheating, cracks...). My opinion is that you go the 'leave the paint, put in some hot motor, springs and wheels' route on your car, since I feel it is not going to stay with you forever. let the next owner decide whether he wants to restore it back to it's full glory. that said, I wouldn't sell off the og drivetrain for just the few hundred bucks you will get for it. keep it, because the next owner will be happy to drive your resto mod car and at the same time rebuild the og numbers matching drivetrain to put back in there. Enjoy your project as much as you can, and remember, a Del Rio makes ONE FANTASTIC Ride to own !

And not only a Del Rio, but a project Del Rio that is in SOOOO much better shape than most. Those floorboards look pretty awesome from what we can see in the pics....irregardless of the one patch.
I've never worked on an old wagon, but on that tailgate issue, I'd try to get the inner panels off so you can maybe see if the old latch is actually releasing.
I think no mater which way you go, based on comments you've made, you're gonna do that car justice.

The tailgate hinges quite often get corroded from not being moved in a long time.  Give them a squirt or two of penetrating oil.  Also as Rich has suggested check the latch linkage for free movement and give it a squirt also.

what's stuck, the lift or tailgate or both ? the locking mechanism is quite complex and there are some couplings that connect the actual handle to the outboard latches. these can come off easily. yes hinges get frozen easily too.
there are two latches on top of the lower gate, that hold the liftgate closed and two cogwheel latches with strikers on the sides of the lower tailgate.
it is best to unscrew the inner tailgate panel and you will get good access to all the locks and latches and you will be able to unlock them from inside.

I have the window open, but I won't close it because the upper latch on the passenger side isn't releasing at all. I am hoping I can see in there to get that all sorted out once the tailgate is open.

The tailgate isn't latched, it will move about 2 inches and then feels like it is pushing against something at the bottom, which is why I am wondering if there is an area inside that the tailgate moves through that now has something fallen in there.

The back has a bunch if parts in there that were meticulously labeled and in seperate plastic bage - unfortunately each bag was mostly disintegrated. The metal trim for around the windshield was back there, all wrapped in newspaper. The newspaper was dated Feb of 88 - which is a month after my son who was helping me clean it out was born.

So, is there a channel that the lower part of the tailgate moves into as the tailgate opens? Or is there some secondary latch that engages after the tailgate is open a couple inches?

Oh! And what is with the extra lines going to the fuel pump?? We were looking over the engine and I noticed the extra hard lines going to the top of the fuel pump. I will go try to get some pics to show what I am seeing.

Extra lines on fuel pump are for the vacuum operated windshield wipers.

Here is the tailgate. The second pic shows the upper latch is released, is there another latch mechanism?

Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-11-08 16:29
Extra lines on fuel pump are for the vacuum operated windshield wipers.

Ah! So that is what this thing is then. I assumed it must be windshield wipers but I hadn't seen one that is vacuum operated before. I sure hope it isn't a crazy cable mess under the dash like a 55 chevy has.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Nope, no crazy cable mess under the dash............................it's inside the cowl, lol.

Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-11-08 16:43
Nope, no crazy cable mess under the dash............................it's inside the cowl, lol.

Oh that's funny! Since it is vacuum operated, what do people do when they swap in another engine? Is there an electric motor that can be swapped in or something?

Engine swap or no, it's good to change to an electric wiper if you plan on it being driven often. There are several ways to go with that, perhaps the easiest is an aftermarket Newport wiper which bolts up to the oem wiper motor bracket on the cowl. Lots of threads and info to be found here when you get to that point. The cable and pulley system inside the cowl is actually more reliable than one would think, and most have not had to do anything to it except some maintenance. Removing the cowl vent grille will get you right to it for a look to see if it's intact.

Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-11-08 20:21
Engine swap or no, it's good to change to an electric wiper if you plan on it being driven often. There are several ways to go with that, perhaps the easiest is an aftermarket Newport wiper which bolts up to the oem wiper motor bracket on the cowl. Lots of threads and info to be found here when you get to that point. The cable and pulley system inside the cowl is actually more reliable than one would think, and most have not had to do anything to it except some maintenance. Removing the cowl vent grille will get you right to it for a look to see if it's intact.

55 - 57 Chevy electric wiper motors bolt in and use the stock 57 Ford actuating cable from the dash.  You can access the pulley system (the back side of the plate on the fire wall) from under the dash by removing the drivers side fresh air vent.

Your stuck tail gate is rusty hinges.  Go slowly and work it back and forth with plenty of rust buster every day until it will move freely.  Be careful not to force it as the tail gate mounts will fold up like tissue!

there are also folding metal straps to each side, which will hold the gate when in down position. they could be hooked into the bottom rubber or seized too. if one of the lift gate latches doesn't release then you got trouble with one of those couplers inside the gate I mentioned before. most probably then only one tailgate latch will fully release.you will have to work on all those latches most probably, because they are getting delicate when worn out from age, especially the liftgate strikers. the are often getting worn to the point where the gates will rattle and squeek a lot.
the tailgate swings down into the recess that is visible just above the gravel pan/bumper. there could be stuff in there by wasps, mice or plain sand. it's behind where you can see the lower tailgate rubber seal.
looking forward to your progress on the car and which direction you will take it.

I used the Newport electric wiper conversion on my Fairlane. Easy conversion, works perfectly.

The hinges on my Ranchero (same tailgate set-up) were seized solid, eventually heat freed them off.  Seeing as you've opened it a bit, is there room to get one of those small kitchen gas torches down there to get some heat into the hinge pin?  OK it won't be as effective as oxy-acetylene but it might help.

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1726733605_1/Butane-font-b-Gas-b-font-font-b-Kitchen-b-font-Lighter-BBQ-lighters-Gun-Windproof.jpg)

From time to time the tailgate striker plates pop up on eBay.  Repops are also available.  The striker plates for the upper lift window are rarely available as new...I have not seen repops.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-58-Ford-And-Mercury-Wagon-NOS-Tailgate-Striker-Plate-N-O-S-/181917135443?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ai%252B05LtP92Bl78TnMo2G2xfMx5g%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Quote from: Limey57 on 2015-11-09 16:33
The hinges on my Ranchero (same tailgate set-up) were seized solid, eventually heat freed them off.  Seeing as you've opened it a bit, is there room to get one of those small kitchen gas torches down there to get some heat into the hinge pin?  OK it won't be as effective as oxy-acetylene but it might help.

That's an interesting idea to heat them up. I was out there spraying penetrating oil on everything on the tailgate I can get access to, but I couldn't see the actual hinges at all. Are they under the tailgate thus blocked from being visible by the seals? Or are they on the side of the tailgate like a pickup truck's hinge?  I have been assuming they were on the sides.

The hinges are on the bottom of the tail gate.  They are about 3-4 inches wide and made of cast iron.  If I remember correctly you may be able to spray penetrating oil on the hinges from underneath the car.  The tail gate holders are on each side of the tail gate.  The tail gate holders may need some penetrating oil also.  It appears that your tail gate is partially open so you may be able to spray the holders as the tail gate opens further.

applying heat will burn the paint. the hinges are on the bottom of the gate aproxx. 8inches inside from each end. simply get into the car and spray your penetrating oil into the slot between the bottom of the tailgate and the spare wheel compartment cover. point straight to the back and the oil will run down to the hinges.

OK, I just had a look at my Ranchero and you'd need to open the tailgate a lot more than you have to get heat directed at the pin only.  If the constant dosing with penetrating fluid doesn't work, is it possible to remove the rear floor?  The bolts on the rear edge will be a challenge as they're under the tailgate (see photo below) but if the tailgate is open a bit you MIGHT be able to get a spanner on them:

(http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/2425641c672088e2.jpg)

With the floor removed you can then access the hinge mounting bolts (they are just under the rear edge of the floor) and remove the tailgate complete to get access to the hinges properly.  The photo below shows the hinge location:

(http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/2425641c6712f137.jpg)

As has been said, be real careful forcing anything or it will twist the tailgate good & proper!

Thanks for the pics - that makes it much easier to see. I'll try to use penetrating oil tonight.

The good news, even if it takes two weeks of oiling and lightly working it, I'm fine with that, I've got the time and patience.

patience pays off ! Gary, the wagons don't have solid cargo floor tin as a Ranchero would. the wgn has a hinged lid over the spare wheel tray. I am sure when Bill removes the 7 Philips head screws he would be able to get out the cover and get access to the hinge bolts (worst case scenario).
Gary's pics show, where the hinges have little notches for lubrication.

I got the floorboard/spare tire cover unscrewed (those screws really did NOT want to come out). I will spray the penetrating oil in the area behind those bolts every day for awhile to give it time to work.

I was happy to see there was a jack and spare tire in there.

Oh - when the back seat folds down, is it supposed to lay down flat? Mine didn't lay flat at all before I pulled it out, but I am not sure if that is because it never layed flat or if it is because of the upholstery not being right. 

the actual back seat base first folds forward and has a metal stand underneath which swings forward and sits on the floorboards. only then the seat back comes down and goes into the place where the seat was . both parts of the seats have steel backs covered with linoleum. you will get approx 9x4.5 feet of flat cargo area. try to find that in ANY modern SUV or wagon.

Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2015-11-11 02:28
the actual back seat base first folds forward and has a metal stand underneath which swings forward and sits on the floorboards. only then the seat back comes down and goes into the place where the seat was . both parts of the seats have steel backs covered with linoleum. you will get approx 9x4.5 feet of flat cargo area. try to find that in ANY modern SUV or wagon.

Very cool! I took it out and put it immediately into storage so it wouldn't get messed up - I didn't even notice the base seat can fold forward. It looked in pretty good condition except very dirty and one rip on the seat base.

Thanks for the info!!!
Bill

I got it open. It's still really stiff, but movable. I will keep working it and hopefully it will loosen up more.

Boy that things in nice shape!

Your a lucky guy.

Congrats on getting the taigate open! Your car is an incredible survivor.

Quote from: rmk57 on 2015-11-15 20:20
Boy that things in nice shape!

Your a lucky guy.

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-11-16 09:51
Congrats on getting the tailgate open! Your car is an incredible survivor.

Thanks guys! I think it's probably the most solid foundation for a project that I've ever had, which is ironic since it is also the oldest car I've ever owned.

I guess next I better get serious about seeing if that 312 will start. I am thinking I will spray some oil into the cylinders through the spark plug holes over the course of a few days, then try to turn the motor by hand to see if it's frozen up. Then if all looks good, I will bolt on a different 4160 carb that I know is good, and run a fuel line into a gas can for the starting test.

Which reminds me, would this have come with a Holley 4160 from the factory? That's what's on there now, there was even a generic rebuild kit in the interior when I bought it. The fuel line going to the carb is metal, so it looks like a factory setup but I was under the impression the 4160 came out in the early 60's.

Excellent news on the tailgate, I'd take the hinges off and soak them in diesel.

The 312 in my Victoria was frozen after sitting for 35 years. Used a mix of auto trans fluid and penetrating oil (like WD40) down the spark plug holes and kept trying to turn it by hand over the course of a couple of weeks, eventually broke it free. Turned it over plenty of times by hand until it felt like it was turning freely, then drained all the gunk out of the sump, put some fresh oil and a filter on it, fresh gas and fired it up. Other than going through all the rocker gear and cleaning it all up, 7 years later it's still in there and performing like a trooper, doesn't blow any smoke and uses minimal oil. I see no need to tear it down. I hope you are as lucky as I was.

Quote from: junior58 on 2015-11-17 01:26
The 312 in my Victoria was frozen after sitting for 35 years. Used a mix of auto trans fluid and penetrating oil (like WD40) down the spark plug holes and kept trying to turn it by hand over the course of a couple of weeks, eventually broke it free. Turned it over plenty of times by hand until it felt like it was turning freely, then drained all the gunk out of the sump, put some fresh oil and a filter on it, fresh gas and fired it up. Other than going through all the rocker gear and cleaning it all up, 7 years later it's still in there and performing like a trooper, doesn't blow any smoke and uses minimal oil. I see no need to tear it down. I hope you are as lucky as I was.

That's very encouraging! Thanks for sharing that, I'll try it.

I finally got my title in the mail today, so it's in my name all proper now.
I have also been lubing up the cylinders and the motor turns over (by hand) now about the same as the new 302 in my Cougar does so I ordered new points, condensor, cap and rotor, plugs, etc to try to get it running. I also got a new ignition switch because the old one was fried.

I also checked out the rear brakes, everything looks real good but I am going to replace the wheel cylinders and hose because it is just a good idea. I haven't pulled the front drums yet, because based on the horrible sound, I am sure the passenger side is fried. The master cylinder is also bad for sure. I will most likely put wilwood discs on the front like I did on my Cougar. That will have to wait for now.

Meanwhile the tailgate opens easily now with one hand. The daily penetrating oil and gently working it a little at a time worked great. I still need to address one of the catches that hold the glass which doesn't release at all. I am pretty sure it is broken inside there.

Hopefully this weekend or next weekend I will be able to see if it runs.  :001: :001: :001:

You should definely consider replacing the single chamber master cylinder for a dual chamber unit. 2nd generation mustangs are a good swap and that casting is available with ports on either side and in any drum or disclosure combinations you can come up with.

Zap :unitedstates:

I used a 74 Maverick non power disk/drum master on my last 57.  It has the ports on the fender side.  This 57 has a composite resevoir, from a 1987 Ranger, non power brakes.  Ports also on the fender side.  Caution, if you ever decide to use this particular master cyl, the resevoir is VERY hard to come by.  All of the auto parts brands have quit producing them, discontinued, etc.  I got mine off ebay, cost me more than the readily available new master cylinder.  It is very cool, requires no prop valve, only a T fitting.  The proportioning is built into the master, and works great with manual disk/drum combo.  Guys on the 4x4 Ranger sites tell me it also works well with the Explorer 4 wheel disk rearend swaps, but Im not sure about it as I havent done it myself, only hearsay.  There are quite a lot of those running around though...who knows?

I definitely will be going to a dual master cylinder, and probably go with the Wilwood front disc brake kit. I'd prefer to have power brakes as well, but since I'm not sure if the 312 is good yet, I'm not sure how much room I will need for a power brake booster. Maybe just going with a Maverick non-power master cylinder is a good compromise. With ports on the fender side, it probably has plenty of room for whatever motor I end up using.

I have all the tune up supplies for the original 312, and after pulling the spark plugs and oiling over a few days, and some gentle prodding, I can turn the motor over by hand. However, the car is still on blocks (and in Nevada sand) and I'm not willing to get under there to drain the oil etc. until it's on back on the ground with tires under there. Hopefully I'll find some rollers on craigslist soon.

I haven't gotten much time to work on the 57 lately, I have been trying to finish up my 67 so I can focus on the 57. However, my wife and I went on a vacation and drove down to Tombstone, AZ. So on the way through Phoenix, I stopped off at Desert Valley Auto Parts in Casa Grande hoping to find a tailgate latch assembly for the passenger side. The one in my car is missing the cam for releasing the window, maybe it is for a Ranchero. They let me walk through the yard to see if I could find the proper one, and I did. The funny part was, it was laying in the back of a Ranchero.  :003: The replacement is corroded and a bit rusty, but appears complete. Hopefully I can put together one complete proper assembly between the one in the car and this one I just bought.

There is a Pretty amazing collection of cars there at DVAP. I took some pictures of the partially disassembled 57 wagons there for reference later. If you are in the area, I highly recommend dropping in. I didn't find any 2 door 57 wagons, but a few 4 door wagons and a few Rancheros. I wasn't looking as much at the sedans, but I did see some there as well. Very cool!

I used some Meguires medium cut then fine cut then was on the red portions of the body. It helped, and there is even a bit of reflection in there, but I couldn't get rid of the discoloration.

Tonight I changed the oil for the first time. The o,d stuff luckily looked like proper oil, not sludgey or smelling wrong. The motor turns over by hand fairly well so I am hoping to throw a battery in there and stick on a different carb, hook it up to a gas can instead of the tank, and try to start it tomorrow. I also have new plugs, cap, rotor, condensor, points and air cleaner for it. I have some almost new wires from my 302 so I will use them for the test firing.

There was a carb rebuild kit on the floor of the back seat, so I don't trust that carb at all - but since I have a few carbs from other projects, I will use one of them for the trial start.

I wonder if gravity feed will be enough for the fuel for the test start. I hope so.

I got a battery hooked up. It is an older one, but after trickle charging all night it is putting out a little over 12 volts.  The car had electricity for the first in 20+ years, headlights worked. Turn signals mostly worked. I try the starter (still no spark plugs in the motor) and the engine doesn't turn, but clearly it sounds like the starter is spinning - it's pretty noisy. If it was a chevy, I'd say it was the starter solenoid isn't kicking the starter motor in - I don't know what the equivilent is for a Y block. Is that the starter drive?

The Bendix drive is stuck... GM type solenoids also serve as the engagement mechanism...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine)

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-03-21 19:00
GM type solenoids also serve as the engagement mechanism...

Exactly - the engagement and the relay both. But for the 312 Y-block, there is the starter motor and something referred to as a "starter drive"' so what actually does the engagement? I guess I better just pull it apart and find out.

As I understand it, the starter drive gear on a Y block starter spins into engagement with the flywheel/flexplate when the armature turns.  When the engine starts the drive gear is reversed in order to disengage the flywheel/flexplate. 

Quote from: BWhitmore on 2016-03-21 19:41
As I understand it, the starter drive gear on a Y block starter spins into engagement with the flywheel/flexplate when the armature turns.  When the engine starts the drive gear is reversed in order to disengage the flywheel/flexplate.

Thanks - that gives me a lot more to go on. I know I'll have to pull it out, but since it's parked on sand, I am not willing to jack it up and get under there until I can park it on proper concrete. Hopefully this weekend. 

I got the car moved onto the concrete part of the driveway and pulled the starter, soaked the starter drive in kerosene for a couple days (that is what the Ford manual from 57 said to do), and put it back in. I also replaced the solenoid, both the battery cables from the battery to the solenoid and solenoid to the starter, and lastly a ground strap that was on the starter to the frame.

I have been putting a little oil in the cylinders and turning over the motor by hand already over the course of a few months, so with no fuel hooked up, I hit the starter - the old girl spun over like she had been running yesterday. The water pump on the other hand is totally frozen and I am pretty sure after working with it that the fuel pump is also dead.

But when I sprayed a little starter fluid over the carb, she kicked. The old old girl wants to run! :003: :003: :003:

I am pretty encouraged, I think the engine is probably okay, but I think it is time for me to pull the engine and tranny and sell them, or make my wife happy and sell the whole car.  I would prefer to have a 351, FE or a 460 - but already have an old 302 that was running when pulled and a C4 that worked great sitting in my garage.

So is anyone interested in a D code 312?

I ordered a new fuel pump this morning from rock auto.... even if I don't use the 312, I really want to hear her run. And of course, if I can get it running well as it is, I'll leave it stock and just enjoy it as it is.

If that's a '57 312, it should have a Holley 4 bbl.  Just fill the bowls with gas and it should run 30-45 seconds.  Save the cost and work of installing fuel pump.  Really shouldn't run it any longer that 30-45 seconds with no coolant in it anyway.

PLEASE !!!! Do NOT Remove the 312 from an original numbers matching D code car !!!
Somebody else after your ownership will be happy to get the still og 312 with the OG D code car. JMHO

This is what I did to my project, I agree with everyone here concerning the drivetrain, keep it, that sounds like a rare factory combination for a 2-door Del Rio. My Custom came with a boat anchor 223ci straight six, so that was the first thing to go.  When at the body & paint shop, I kept the body completely stock, and also stayed with the stock color combination, when I started on the interior, I decided to change to the most deluxe available in 57, I also up graded stereo etc. was also added, thought it came out looking pretty good,  But as far as the drivetrain?  360HP Boss 302 coupled with a beefed TCI C-4 automatic and JEGS 350 ring & pinion in the 9" rear axel. Disc brakes are 1968 Torino GT and dual power boosted master cylinder, and of course changed the electrical system from a generator to an alternator.  None of what I changed, can't easily be changed back to dead stock, keep that in mind,  the 302 will drop right in with the correct motor and transmission mounts.  As you can see, I'm very close on this project, soon I'll start assembling the front clip for installation.   

One of the things I DID change on the dash was the gauges.........notice anything different?

It does have the holley, and I swapped in one I already had with a fresh rebuild to try to get it running. I wish I would have thought of just manually filling the float bowls.

And what I did with the wheels is, 15X8 chrome with a custom offset built by WheelSmith of Corona California finished off with BF Goodrich 225/70R15 tires and the small 57 Ford hubcaps,  I sent an old set in for re-chroming, then repainted the white insets myself.  These are very rare as NOS still wrapped in paper... 

Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2016-04-20 15:08
PLEASE !!!! Do NOT Remove the 312 from an original numbers matching D code car !!!
Somebody else after your ownership will be happy to get the still og 312 with the OG D code car. JMHO

I know, it does sound wrong to pull that out. I am really torn on that.

Quote from: Custom_Shelby on 2016-04-20 17:25
...  360HP Boss 302 coupled with a beefed TCI C-4 automatic ....

That's really close to what I just got done doing to my Cougar, a Blueprint 390 horse 302 and a TCI streetfighter C4. Your car looks great, I look forward to seeing it when it's done.

So do I...lol.  I did a 1968 Shelby GT-500KR several years ago, but it still gets trophies!  I put a 427 in it...it's still fast after all these years....

Quote from: billd5string on 2016-04-20 18:09
I know, it does sound wrong to pull that out. I am really torn on that.

I really understand being torn about changing out original stuff. I try to keep EVERYTHING that I take off of mine. I started with a car that was already modified so that makes it easier. My vision is "stock" inside and out, '60's style street sleeper. I truly appreciate everybody's approach but if I had a rare combo intact.....I feel your pain.

I know exactly what you mean Lynn, what I started with was circling the drain when I got it...after stripping down to a shell, next thing was the floor.

Don't get me wrong. I have personally owned 2 57 wagons with SBF and C4/C6 and know how nicely they drive and can be driven by anybody without special knowledge in old cars or how to use old transmissions aso. If I had your car and wanted to have daily driving 302 qualities, and you can swap in a good running engine quickly without any cutting, that is absolutely ok. But I would NEVER sell the original engine. this is not any engine but an original D code equipped 312 Del Rio wagon, top of the line.
I have had more than 30 vintage cars and replaced many engines but NEVER sold off the original. Many times I built the cars back to stock with the original engines later on, or I sold the engines WITH the projects/cars so the next owner could put them back in. I know that the 312 didn't come with a real engine number and somebody could find another 312, but try finding a complete and good one these days...you will not be able to get so much money for your old used and dirty mill now, but it would cost lots of lots of money to get a good one or decent parts, if you need to build one. I have at least $4000 in my Y block and parts, not even assembled. again this is just my humble opinion, and I just love old original cars.

Quote from: billd5string on 2016-04-20 18:09
I know, it does sound wrong to pull that out. I am really torn on that.

Beautiful build.

You're moving right along on that. I didn't think you had started on it yet. Nice job on the floors.
Cancel that...I was getting confused about who's build thread this is.

my wagon was a 6 cyl std.the reason i changed mine out was it was almost dangerous to try and merge on to the freeway

Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2016-04-21 23:17
my wagon was a 6 cyl std.the reason i changed mine out was it was almost dangerous to try and merge on to the freeway

What motor/trans did you replace it with?

I used gasman826's suggestion and just filled up the carb, sprayed a quick shot of starter fluid and the old girl started right up.  :blob9: It was idling pretty smooth - I am astounded. I have already ordered a new water pump, time to move onto the brakes.

I only let it run for a minute or so, waited a few minutes while I dance around the driveway, then tried to start it again, and she started right up. I am completely astounded.

Quote from: billd5string on 2016-04-22 09:09
What motor/trans did you replace it with?

lincoln mark 8 4.6 auto,almost done.see my post under engine swaps

I vote for 312 power in a D code Del Rio ! :002:

If mine had a 312 oem engine, it wouldn't have ended up with the 4.6 dohc I also installed. With that said, I couldn't be happier with my decision to go the new school route.

Thanks for the input, guys. I put the new fuel pump in this morning, and reached in, turned the key, and she started right up. I haven't got the new water pump yet, so I didn't leave it running for more than a minute, but it sure sounds good.

I shifted it into drive and the wheels turned (it is on jackstands and master cylinder is fried). So at this point, I am definately going to stick with the stock motor and tranny. I am anxious now to get the brakes finished and go for a drive. Oh yeah, I'll have to do something about the seat also.

I got the old water pump pulled out. No question on why it was locked up. The radiator flushed out pretty well, and I pulled the thermostat out and flushed out the engine, it came out pretty clean too - still had anti-freeze in there.

The small tube on the thermostat housing is half rotted away though, so I will try to find a new one.

That is the nastiest water pump I have ever seen. Did it even spin?

Zap- :unitedstates:

Quote from: Zapato on 2016-04-26 20:59
That is the nastiest water pump I have ever seen. Did it even spin?

Nope! It's pretty much solid.

I'm so glad that the ol' 312 has fired up and that you are now going to keep it in place. My once-frozen 312 purrs along nicely, never been apart other than stripping and cleaning up the rocker shafts and rockers. Uses very little oil, no more you'd expect from a 59 year old engine, but doesn't blow any smoke. Hope yours goes as well as mine.

Quote from: billd5string on 2016-04-23 23:02
Thanks for the input, guys. I put the new fuel pump in this morning, and reached in, turned the key, and she started right up. I haven't got the new water pump yet, so I didn't leave it running for more than a minute, but it sure sounds good.

I shifted it into drive and the wheels turned (it is on jackstands and master cylinder is fried). So at this point, I am definately going to stick with the stock motor and tranny. I am anxious now to get the brakes finished and go for a drive. Oh yeah, I'll have to do something about the seat also.

In the '60s I once test drove my car sitting on a bucket! That was how excited I was... :003:

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-04-28 07:03
In the '60s I once test drove my car sitting on a bucket! That was how excited I was... :003:

That's funny..............I always used a Milk Crate!

Not sure how we lived through the 1960's?

Quote from: John Palmer on 2016-04-28 11:10
That's funny..............I always used a Milk Crate!

Not sure how we lived through the 1960's?

Milk crate was my choice as well. Why are we alive today?

The one I used was still made from wood., I think it was a 7 UP.

I was not as sophisticated......used a little "kiddy" chair.  Still have it for working the loooong sides of cars while striping paint with the DA.  Yes, it is amazing we survived without government "help".

Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2016-04-29 08:16
I was not as sophisticated......used a little "kiddy" chair.  Still have it for working the loooong sides of cars while striping paint with the DA.  Yes, it is amazing we survived without government "help".

I'm sure in the future all kids will be required to be in bubble wrap  :003:

Milk crate, soda crate, when I finally get a chance to get her on the road, I'll gladly scrounge up something to make it work. I've pulled seats out of other cars before, but since I'd have to drill holes for that on this one, it will either be low tech or more likely a blanket laying over the original seat frame springs. I've bought a roll of seat spring to replace all the broken ones, but haven't gotten to starting on that yet.

It's been very windy and a bit rainy this week, so I haven't even gotten to put the new water pump in yet.

Got the rust cleaned up and the new water pump in, as well as the radiator back in and trans cooler hooked back up. Still need to get a new thermostat housing and radiator hoses. I refuse to use those flex hoses. But I did start it up again just to hear it run for a minute. I am still amazed at how well it runs.

Vegas is having one of it's flash floods so it has been dumping rain all day. So no work on the car anyway.

I am thinking about going with a Maverick or Mustang master cylinder from the mid 70's. I definitely don't want a single style in there. And I am thinking about going with a scarebird adaptor and converting to front disc brakes. That way it could all be restored easily later if someone didn't want good brakes.

Concours Parts is in Las Vegas. If they were here I would visit them as least once a week! :003:

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-05-01 07:18
Concours Parts is in Las Vegas. If they were here I would visit them as least once a week! :003:

I wasn't aware of Concours Parts! I have been going to Mac's for the hard to find parts. Thanks for the tip, Lynn! I will check them out.

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-05-01 07:18
Concours Parts is in Las Vegas. If they were here I would visit them as least once a week! :003:

When did they move from Carson City?

Whoops, I must have had Mac's map in my mind. My bad...

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-05-01 10:45
Whoops, I must have had Mac's map in my mind. My bad...

Thats funny Lynn, Macs is in NY.  :003:

 That is funny, apparantly I am having a "senior moment"!!!! ...LOL, nevermind! :003:

Bills5string....sounds like you need to check out our listing of 57 Ford specific parts suppliers. 40+ vendors. It's locATED TWO BOARDS DOWN FROM THIS ONE...THEN OPEN "LINKS"...IT'S PINNED TO THE TOP. Sorry about the caps..new keyboard
Great to hear about your running motor....that's awesome.

After I looked up Concours, I remembered seeing them - I used to live in Carson City, but didn't have an old Ford at the time.

I had looked at the suppliers links when I first bought the car, I better take another look.

I got the new thermostat housing and radiator hoses in.

I bought some scarebird brakets and installed new disc brakes on the front. Easy install, seems well designed. I still need to get brake lines and a new proportioning valve, but I do have a new master cylinder for a Maverick (thanks for the suggestion, James) I will install next.

I cannot believe I haven't updated this for so long. I've had some life problems get in the way, but the Del Rio is back as an active project again.

I recently picked up a 460 engine which was rebuilt years ago, but never started. I am going to go through it again (re-install the bearings with assembly lube, etc), and put it in the Del Rio. I finally made up my mind to go ahead and do the car like a hot rod and have fun. I am getting ready to pull the 312 and transmission. I am being really careful to save as much as possible in case someone who is restoring a car can use the parts. Same thing with the wiring harness. I carefully removed the engine side harness up to the firewall in case someone else can make use of it. I don't know yet how much under the dash the harness snakes around, hopefully not much.

Hopefully someone will have use for the old 312 and trans, I hate old parts going as scrap, especially when they are getting harder to find.

I pulled the motor and trans yesterday after work. I am kind of shocked at how there is almost no grease and oil in the engine compartment and only a little on the engine itself. My wife took some pictures while I was pulling it out.

My appreciation for this car just keeps growing.

The 312 and trans are sold and gone. Apparently it will be going into a '56 F100. Meanwhile, I got the remants of the old headliner all pulled out. I numbered the "bars" so they can go back in in the same order since they don't look like they are all the same. I also powerwashed the engine bay and front suspension, but there wasn't much oil or greese on anything so it didn't make much difference.

Next I am going to start making my new brake lines since the engine is out of the way.

might be overkill but mark the headliner holes.  Don't lose the two little wires on the rear bow.  The headliner 'saw teeth' around the top of the doors will also be needed.

It seems your Del Rio had been thoroughly restored and hardly driven any after its last major overhaul. Hope it'll be back on the road soon once you got your new drivetrain sorted.

Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2017-04-02 15:53
It seems your Del Rio had been thoroughly restored and hardly driven any after its last major overhaul. Hope it'll be back on the road soon once you got your new drivetrain sorted.

I hope so. I hadn't gotten to drive it since the brakes were completely gone, and obviously it needs that new motor now. I think I still have a couple big purchases before it will be back on the road. I don't have a transmission yet and haven't settled on going with a C6 because I really miss having a manual. And I'm thinking while the motor is out, that maybe doing a rack and pinion conversion would be a really good idea. So I have to save up some cash for those.

Is it hard to retrofit a clutch pedal and hydraulic clutch master cylinder into these cars?

It is not that hard to add a clutch pedal to an automatic car, a matter of the pedal itself and a few other parts. I converted mine to manual clutch actuation first and then to a hydraulic setup next. I used a Mcleod conversion kit for 64-66 Mustang without a lot of issues...be glad to provide details....  :003:

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2017-04-03 19:53
It is not that hard to add a clutch pedal to an automatic car, a matter of the pedal itself and a few other parts. I converted mine to manual clutch actuation first and then to a hydraulic setup next. I used a Mcleod conversion kit for 64-66 Mustang without a lot of issues...be glad to provide details....  :003:

Thanks! I did a hydraulic conversion on a previous truck project, and I still have the master and slave cylinders from that project (truck got totaled when someone ran a red light). The biggest challenge I had on that project was getting the master cylinder lined up with the pedal perfectly. How hard is it to find a clutch pedal for a 60 year old Ford? Do I need to swap out anything under the dash to hang the clutch pedal (support bracket and such)?

IIRC, there is a pin that the brake pedal pivots on, held with a lock pin.  Remove the locking pin and the pivot then the pivot pin attached to the clutch pedal just replaces it, insert the lock pin.  There's a return spring that attaches and can sometimes be a little bit of a problem but no support changes need be done.  If my memory fails me, someone please correct me.

The addition of a clutch pedal to a manual brake pedal is fairly straight forward as previously outlined.  Several years of pedals will fit.  The hanging of a clutch master cylinder is much harder.  The pedal/master cylinder connection point is different from the manual linkage connection point.  The ratio on mine was 6 to 1.  Measure from the center of the pedal pivot shaft hole to the center of the pedal pad.  The master cylinder must top out at the top of the pedal swing and bottom out with the pedal contact with the floor.  If the MC bottoms before the pedal bottoms against the floor, the pedal will need a block.  As the pedal swings, there is a slight arc on the travel of the pedal connection point.  The MC must be placed so the bore aligns with the center of that arc.  Clear as mud and hard to do.  I hope this helps you.  It is NOT meant to discourage you.  Hydraulic clutch throwout bearings are the greatest.  Even with the extra work, I will never install manual linkage again.  The smoothness and lack of pedal effort is worth the work!  I built an extension on the side of my pedal to move the MC left to clear the brake MC.

Wow - this is very doable. I checked, and I do still have my master cylinder and slave unit. The master cylinder looks identical to the one in gasman's photo.

Thanks guys!! Time for me to start looking for a transmission!  :003:

I found a clutch and brake pedal pair, they'll be here Friday. I also finally pulled out the original headliner (that was nasty) and door panels. Then I carefully pulled the radio, clock, heater controls, gauge panel, dash vents and controls.

I won't be using the radio, heater controls or clock for sure so if someone is looking for any of that, please PM me. I don't want to modify the dash at all, but I am hoping I can make a panel to cover all the openings for a clean look.

I also was going through some trim pieces that came with the car. They were all wrapped in newspaper dated 1988. I haven't figured out what these pieces are. I think one is for the kick panel - because I saw a similar piece in someone's post. Anyone know where the other pieces go?

Here is a couple more shots of the interior after I got the panels and headliner out.

And here are a few shots of the engine bay now that the 312 is out.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-12 20:38
I haven't figured out what these pieces are. I think one is for the kick panel - because I saw a similar piece in someone's post. Anyone know where the other pieces go?

the lower one is the drivers kickpanel molding, as you said. the other 2 are the garnsih moldings for where the headliner meets the rear liftgate opening. they are screwed to the body.

Bill, in your first pic of the stripped dash, there is something visible that needs attention. look at the upmost corner of the A post and you will see rust streaks running from inside the overlapping metal.
This is again the problem of the bad draining situation of the original factory design. the water comes from inside the roof ( condensed water) and is caught in the inner structure of the rain gutters. now that your headliner is out you have good access to that areas. please study and try to find the og drains to the front and back of the raingutters ( on outside of car. approx 1/2 x 1/8" slots). they have probably been smeared with filler. you might also want to clean out any debris, rust and cloth remains from the inside roof structure with a vaccuum cleaner. and drill further drain holes to the inner structure so the water can drain down to the posts and out of the rocker drains. I know that you are living in dry Nevada, but it still will eat your roof corners from the inside, as visible by the rust streaks.I strongly recommend cleaning those drain holes, as many station wagon roofs are rusted out from the inside and it is a damage that is very difficult to repair. Now you have the chance to remedy those problems, before putting in a new headliner!

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-12 20:34
I found a clutch and brake pedal pair, they'll be here Friday. I also finally pulled out the original headliner (that was nasty) and door panels. Then I carefully pulled the radio, clock, heater controls, gauge panel, dash vents and controls.

I won't be using the radio, heater controls or clock for sure so if someone is looking for any of that, please PM me. I don't want to modify the dash at all, but I am hoping I can make a panel to cover all the openings for a clean look.

Bill........P.M. sent to you.

Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2017-04-13 02:04
Bill, in your first pic of the stripped dash, there is something visible that needs attention. look at the upmost corner of the A post and you will see rust streaks running from inside the overlapping metal.
This is again the problem of the bad draining situation of the original factory design. the water comes from inside the roof ( condensed water) and is caught in the inner structure of the rain gutters. now that your headliner is out you have good access to that areas. please study and try to find the og drains to the front and back of the raingutters ( on outside of car. approx 1/2 x 1/8" slots). they have probably been smeared with filler. you might also want to clean out any debris, rust and cloth remains from the inside roof structure with a vaccuum cleaner. and drill further drain holes to the inner structure so the water can drain down to the posts and out of the rocker drains. I know that you are living in dry Nevada, but it still will eat your roof corners from the inside, as visible by the rust streaks.I strongly recommend cleaning those drain holes, as many station wagon roofs are rusted out from the inside and it is a damage that is very difficult to repair. Now you have the chance to remedy those problems, before putting in a new headliner!

Thanks for the insight! I will definitely check that area out. I saw you did a bunch of work on those pillars on your car and was wondering if I was going to have the same problem. also, thanks for posting that link to the dashboard welt - I just found those trim pieces a few days ago. I'm missing a couple small pieces that go at the top of the pillar and connect to the cross piece to the mirror, but the rest was there in a box.

Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2017-04-13 01:53
the lower one is the drivers kickpanel molding, as you said. the other 2 are the garnsih moldings for where the headliner meets the rear liftgate opening. they are screwed to the body.

Ah - that makes sense. I was holding up to anywhere trim was missing, but I didn't think of the headliner. Thanks!

I believe the small pieces you mentioned maybe where the sun visor/sun visor delete goes.  On my sedan, I have a visor on the driver's side and a delete on the passenger side.  IIRC, they cover about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4"

Quote from: terry_208 on 2017-04-13 09:44
I believe the small pieces you mentioned maybe where the sun visor/sun visor delete goes.  On my sedan, I have a visor on the driver's side and a delete on the passenger side.  IIRC, they cover about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4"

That makes perfect sense. I have the visors but I left them in the box because they were pretty nasty.

Thanks! I'll check that out when I get home!
I love it when a car comes together!

Here are a couple pics of the 460 I'll be using. It was rebuilt in the distant past but never fired so I'll go through it with fresh assembly lube before I install and start it. I'm also upgrading the cam, springs and rockers.

It must have came out of a '68 Lincoln so that got me thinking... will that make my Del Rio at hot rod Lincoln? Not a model A body so I guess not. But still a funny thought to me.

I have to change what I said. yes the middle one is for the rear headliner to body. the upper molding in the pic is for the rear wheelwell. it keeps the original vinyl lining to the wheelwells.( on cargo floor level).

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-13 08:37
Ah - that makes sense. I was holding up to anywhere trim was missing, but I didn't think of the headliner. Thanks!

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-13 10:58

It must have came out of a '68 Lincoln so that got me thinking... will that make my Del Rio at hot rod Lincoln? Not a model A body so I guess not. But still a funny thought to me.

I know the feeling well.....my 4.6 dohc is from a Lincoln MKVIII. Yours is more traditional than mine for sure, so probably yours is closer to falling into the hot rod category, mine more street rod????
"Street Rod Lincoln".....hmmmm....doesn't flow well does it, lol
Guys will be debating what the definition of a hot rod is forever.

 :unitedstates:Hot rods dont have fenders racton....

Quote from: racton on 2017-04-14 15:40
:unitedstates: Hot rods dont have fenders racton....

I haven't heard that distinction in years!  :003:

i call my wagon with the 4.6 lincoln mark viii motor a sleeper.looks stock but you can surprise people at the lights :003:

I thought the evening light was lighting up the car in a cool way, so had to try to capture the image.

Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2017-04-14 19:04
i call my wagon with the 4.6 lincoln mark viii motor a sleeper.looks stock but you can surprise people at the lights :003:

I've had three 4.6 mod motors in 2 cars and a F150 (all 2 valve motors). I think they're great and had good luck with them, but it never would have occurred to me to put one in a '57 - I suppose mostly because I deal with computers all day, and have no desire to have a computer to deal with in my fun car. But I think it is extremely impressive how many of you guys have gotten the 4.6's into your cars.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-14 21:02
I thought the evening light was lighting up the car in a cool way, so had to try to capture the image.

I was jealous when you found that car and still am.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-14 21:08
I've had three 4.6 mod motors in 2 cars and a F150 (all 2 valve motors). I think they're great and had good luck with them, but it never would have occurred to me to put one in a '57 - I suppose mostly because I deal with computers all day, and have no desire to have a computer to deal with in my fun car. But I think it is extremely impressive how many of you guys have gotten the 4.6's into your cars.

the other thing i like is how well it runs,just like a new car and gets almost 28 miles per US gal.i have not seen too many big blocks get that kind of mpg :003:

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-14 21:02
I thought the evening light was lighting up the car in a cool way, so had to try to capture the image.

nice wagon. my wagon is red and white also.jealous of your nice weather.had a spring snow storm today,have about 3 inches of wet snow :005:

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-04-04 15:09
The addition of a clutch pedal to a manual brake pedal is fairly straight forward as previously outlined.  Several years of pedals will fit.  The hanging of a clutch master cylinder is much harder.  The pedal/master cylinder connection point is different from the manual linkage connection point.  The ratio on mine was 6 to 1.  Measure from the center of the pedal pivot shaft hole to the center of the pedal pad.  The master cylinder must top out at the top of the pedal swing and bottom out with the pedal contact with the floor.  If the MC bottoms before the pedal bottoms against the floor, the pedal will need a block.  As the pedal swings, there is a slight arc on the travel of the pedal connection point.  The MC must be placed so the bore aligns with the center of that arc.  Clear as mud and hard to do.  I hope this helps you.  It is NOT meant to discourage you.  Hydraulic clutch throwout bearings are the greatest.  Even with the extra work, I will never install manual linkage again.  The smoothness and lack of pedal effort is worth the work!  I built an extension on the side of my pedal to move the MC left to clear the brake MC.

Thanks Gasman. I followed your approach and have installed clutch and brake pedals from another 57, drilled a hole for the hydraulic lever 2 inches from the pivot (12 inches to the pedal, so 6:1 ratio) and mounted my wilwood clutch cylinder aligned with that hole, but a little to the left where there is a relatively flat part of the firewall. I have a wilwood pushrod kit on order, once that gets here I should have it completed. And gosh darn, I am now pretty committed to a manual transmission.  :burnout:

I got the cluch master cylinder installed today and the pedal works great. Of course, it is only hooked up to a slave cylinder, but I'll take a little success where I can.

It looks good but is there room to attach the brake lines to the mc?  This hydraulic clutch idea is starting to appeal to me.

Quote from: terry_208 on 2017-04-18 21:39
It looks good but is there room to attach the brake lines to the mc?  This hydraulic clutch idea is starting to appeal to me.

I was getting a bit worried about that also after I had both mounted, and if the rear line had to do a sharp right angle, I think it would be too tight of a bend. However, I think I can just put a shallow bend, maybe 30 degrees and the brake line should go right under the clutch unit. I hope to start on that soon.

I ran the lines to the prop valve, it worked out fine.

I also bought a speedo panel from a junk car, removed the factory stuff, cut a piece of steel to creat a blank and attached it to the panel. I painted it white to see how it would look, but I am not sure I will leave it that way. I also made a blank panel for the radio/clock/heater control opening. I suspect I will be redoing that but at least it gave me an idea of how that might look.

Curious, what is the piece next to the prop valve that looks like it has a brake light switch attached?

Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-04-22 07:46
Curious, what is the piece next to the prop valve that looks like it has a brake light switch attached?

That's all, just a brake light switch. I put it after the line lock so the brake lights would still be on whether the brakes were on normally or on because of the line lock.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-04-22 08:50
That's all, just a brake light switch. I put it after the line lock so the brake lights would still be on whether the brakes were on normally or on because of the line lock.

OK, thanks, I've never used a line lock so I had no idea what it was. That was the piece I was questioning..

Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-04-22 08:56
OK, thanks, I've never used a line lock so I had no idea what it was. That was the piece I was questioning..

I got the idea from a picture that gasman826 posted. I hadn't done one before but figured with a big block and a manual transmission, this might be a good place to start. And what better time than before I have made all new brake lines.

My first attempt to attach a steel panel to the factory panel by using JB Weld, didn't work. So I sanded it all off, made a new gauge panel and tried again. For attempt number two, I am bolting the panel to the stock cluster. I have a speedometer already, so that gives an idea of how it will look.

I also got all my brake lines finally all made and installed for the front. Still have the back to do, so I can't bleed the fronts yet but at least I am much closer.

Dash looks good!  Keep at it, you'll get it.

One of my old dash layouts.

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-05-07 07:43
Dash looks good!  Keep at it, you'll get it.

One of my old dash layouts.

I saw a photo of your old layout, that was my inspiration to try it myself.  :002:

This is where it is at now. I think it will stay like that until I actually buy gauges and start wiring.

I have been working on my engine, and got the new cam, timing set and oil pump installed. I checked the rod bearings, and they are clearly brand new and still oiled up from when the motor was assembled at a machine shop sometime in the past.  I was happy to see that the cam and timing gear I pulled out were also brand new and never ran, but since I don't know what the cam was, I had already bought a new high energy cam from comp and the timing set to go with it.

Anyway, so now that is all done, the front cover and oil pan are all back on and I installed the heads also. Now I just need to save up some more money to finish it off.

I also have been working on my seat base. I replaced the springs and am hoping to start making new upholstery in the next few weeks. But maybe putting it in the car was a little premature.  :002:   :005:

I reupholstered my seat, got it all back together with new springs, foam, vinyl. It was so far gone when I got the car, I never noticed the seat backs don't line up... until I got it all done and completely assembled for the first time.

Even still, it is the first time I have reupholstered a seat from scratch, I am going to want to do that again. Interesting project.

Check to be sure the seat back stop is in place on the left side. Nice job.

I remember putting them on, but I didn't check to make sure they were the same size (no adjustments there). I'll check that out - thanks!!!

you can easily use different shims or washers under the bumpers and align your seat backs.

I got the seats bolted down, and the metal seat trim installed. Well, maybe trim isn't the right name for them, and I hadn't ever seen them installed on my car because they came in a box in the back, but they are on there now.

I also took a picture from the front of the car, just because I thought it looked kind of cool.

Del's got herself a new rack and pinion!

Which system have you used, is it the Wurth one?

Quote from: Limey57 on 2017-07-03 10:49
Which system have you used, is it the Wurth one?

Nope, this one is all home grown. I studied gasman's pics and posts to figure out what was needed.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-07-03 11:00
Nope, this one is all home grown. I studied gasman's pics and posts to figure out what was needed.

OK, I've got the Wurth kit on mine & it isn't perfect, kinda like a good idea that didn't get completely finished?

Quote from: Limey57 on 2017-07-03 11:41
OK, I've got the Wurth kit on mine & it isn't perfect, kinda like a good idea that didn't get completely finished?

What did they get less than perfect? Is it something you can re-engineer to fix?

The rack is positioned in such a way that where the owes connect they foul the mounting bracket, I've had to file a bit away with a die grinder. Also the U/J's that link it to the column took a lot of fiddling around with to get right.

Don't get me wrong, it is good, but personally I just thought it could be that bit better.

Got the new steering column in. The u-joint angles don't look too bad, but I haven't measured it specifically yet. That will have to wait until the morning when it isn't so hot yet. I lost count on how many times I burned myself on the car metal and the seat this morning. Las Vegas, without shade, in July... less than ideal working on the car climate.  :002:

Don't stress over u-joint alignment until you load the frame...engine, transmission, all together on the wheels.

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-07-08 20:44
Don't stress over u-joint alignment until you load the frame...engine, transmission, all together on the wheels.

Oh... that is an interesting point. Are you saying the frame could (or will) flex with the weight of the engine and everything on it? Therefore if I hook it all up now it may bind up when piggy 460 goes in? 

sure will!

I did my first test fit with the 460 in the wagon this weekend. My motor mounts aren't quite right, so I have some more work to do there. But at least I was able to see how much room I will have around the motor... and I thought it looked really cool in there.  :003:

Side to side there's plenty of room, it's the front to rear where you have to get creative for a proper cooling system. They do look like  they were made for a 429-460 don't they.

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-07-16 14:47
My motor mounts aren't quite right.  :003:

Looks great!  Keep the engine low and back against the firewall.  You'll quickly run out of room.  Early 429s used a short water pump.  It was only 3/4" +/- but only if you have companion pulleys and brackets. 

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-07-16 16:33
Looks great!  Keep the engine low and back against the firewall.  You'll quickly run out of room.  Early 429s used a short water pump.  It was only 3/4" +/- but only if you have companion pulleys and brackets.

Thanks! A few weeks ago, I bought a couple 429 pulleys on eBay one from a 69, the other a 70. I think I got an alternator bracket as well. Is that early enough? And I didn't know that the water pump was also different. Thanks for the information.

I have the short C8SE water pump, but a mix of late 60's early 70's brackets. It's easy enough to make spacers to get the alignment right. The short water pump was used on 68-69 T-birds and Boss 429 Mustangs which makes them a little pricey these days.

Quote from: rmk57 on 2017-07-16 16:53
I have the short C8SE water pump, but a mix of late 60's early 70's brackets. It's easy enough to make spacers to get the alignment right. The short water pump was used on 68-69 T-birds and Boss 429 Mustangs which makes them a little pricey these days.

Thanks - I will add that to my list of parts to search for.

They are repopped.  Doesn't help the price though.

Looks great Bill..... Not sure if you mentioned this.. what exhaust manifolds are you using?.. stockers or a header?..Are you using a 58 or later steering box?.... looks really awesome Bill!

Quote from: Jeff Norwell on 2017-07-18 07:47
Looks great Bill..... Not sure if you mentioned this.. what exhaust manifolds are you using?.. stockers or a header?..Are you using a 58 or later steering box?.... looks really awesome Bill!

Thanks Jeff! I haven't gotten anything for the exhaust yet. I am thinking about getting some hedman shorty headers (89230). I talked to FPA, but I'm not too happy about spending $700 for a bare set. I suppose I wouldn't be as concerned if I knew positively they would work with everything else already. I've converted over to a Cavalier rack and pinion steering.

Bill

Yea.700 plus can get expensive....I am quite sure Gasman has much more knowledge on this than i do(or other members as well!).....I have a 58 box in mine with the factory casts.... and they fit... but it's tight.
Anyhow..You will enjoy the 460 and it's torque!

460 headers in '57-'64 chassis is a tough call.  All my research is near 10 years old.  If someone has a bolt-in, I have not heard of it.  One problem is real estate...there isn't any extra.  There are several motor mount choices.  If someone says their header fits, ask for the mounts used, cross member used, oil pan used, etc.  When I was shopping, FPA said they had customers with this combo but couldn't share which mounts were used.  Crities were happy to supply headers.  After more questioning they admitted with their mounts, oh ya, their cross-member, and oh ya...a whole list of proprietary accessory pieces.  Mad Dog Headers still makes the 460/57 header it supplied Crities until they knocked it off.  I did not care for the Mad Dog Header because of the '60s low hanging style.  My headers are custom Mad Dog fenderwells.  Pricey but so is any one of a kind, custom accessory but the cool factor...If I was to do it again.  I would get a good set of 460 flanges and buy a set of Speedway's '57 Chevy big block fenderwell headers and make them fit.  If no go on the fenderwell and go with under chassis exit, I would buy a set of cheap, stainless shorties off eBay and some stainless bends and make them fit.  If you want out-of-the-box-fit, keep looking for someone with 460 in a '57-64 chassis.  OEM manifolds will fit now that you have the R&P upgrade.

I love the look of those fender well headers. That would be really cool, but I don't want to modify (or eliminate) my inner fenders.... although I might change my mind later because i do think they are extremely cool.

You mentioned the ebay stainless steel cheapo headers... I was also thinking about that path figuring that my engine, transmission (which I don't have one yet) and steering are all different from stock so I'll need to assume I'll have to make it myself or have it custom made anyway. I have also been thinking about factory cast like Jeff has, but in general, even on a stock motor factory manifolds usually don't flow well, and my motor isn't stock. But this is my first 460, maybe the stock manifolds flow better than other cast iron manifolds I've had in the past.

My other big challenge - it is averaging 115 degrees here these days. Even after the sun goes down, it's still 105 out... and the car isn't in the shade this time of year. But I'm loving working on this car, I think it's saving my sanity. So I will just keep limiting my time to weekends from sunrise until 8 or 9 AM at the latest.

Thanks for all the advise guys, I do really appreciate it. I could not have gotten anything close to this far without this forum.

429 CJ manifolds fit and flow better than other 460 manifolds.  Not likely cheap but maybe someone would loan you a set.

Bill.. just to show the fit and tightness... these are the stock Manifolds in my car.... not pretty. but just to show how close they fit....

drivers side and a C/U of the 58 box and manifold.

Pass. side

Boy!!!!  That picture brought back memories of my first 460 in a '57.  I was trying to use passenger car manifolds.  They fit like they were made for it.  Except right at the steering box.  I loosened everything and pried the engine toward the left side.  I finally ground the manifold to get 3/16" clearance.  It never rattled!  Still have the exhaust pipes and mufflers!

Thanks for those pics Jeff - I knew it was probably going to be tight but I didn't realize it was THAT tight.

I modified my motor mount plates this morning, and it works great. The 460 is now bolted to the crossmember. I am going to hold off finishing off the steering column shaft until the transmission is in and it's on the ground, like Gary suggested. Now that the motor is in place, I am going to start on the electrical... I have been looking forward to this, I love wiring cars from scratch. Fixing old nasty wiring? Hate that. Starting from scratch? That is the best!

I haven't posted for a while, but I have been getting some stuff done. I finally bought 2 more 15x7 Torque Thrust wheels for the rear, and had 235/75R15 rollers on them to see how they fit... and they do, almost. They would rub a little on the fender lip. It was great to see the car with four matching wheels and close to proper sized tires on theold girl.

I also ordered a fresh top loader 4 speed that supposedly was from a 428 CJ. I had been thinking to go with the TKO 600 but ultimately decided old school would be better.

Do you know what the back spacing is on the Torque Thrusts? I think the 235/70 tires at 28" OD are a match diameter wise for a 750 x14?
They clear on my car with 4.25" BS.

Quote from: lalessi1 on 2017-10-03 08:56
Do you know what the back spacing is on the Torque Thrusts? I think the 235/70 tires at 28" OD are a match diameter wise for a 750 x14?
They clear on my car with 4.25" BS.

The 15x7 Torque Thrusts have a backspacing of 3.750. Which if your wheels are also 7 inch wide, I believe that means my wheels are kicked out 1/2 inch farther, thus why they are just barely touching lip on my fenders.

...gonna rub...hard

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-10-03 13:16
...gonna rub...hard

Do you think it will still rub after rolling the fender lip? Is there that much side to side play? I am doing this as a test, I was figuring I could get 225 70s if there still isn't much clearance.

All bodies differ a little, but 1/2" is not enough.  The taller the tire the more the tire will flex in curves.  The frame and suspension twist when entering a driveway.  Leaf springs also flex sideways.  I'm a sucker for the old nostalgia wheels...the slotted and the Torque Thrust wheels.  But unfortunately those wheels had 3-1/4 to 3-3/4 inches of back space.  Raunch Wagon has slots with 225-75-15 tires and I have cut the rear lips as much as I dare.  Still rub when entering driveways.  I have to let the nostalgia wheels go and buy new wheels with a custom back space that will allow a larger tire.

I love the nostalgia wheels too, so I will have to find a way to make it work. Hopefully it won't involve narrowing the rearend.

I finally got time to put the new intake on. When I mocked up the carb and air cleaner, it won't fit. I am pretty sure a 2 1/2 inch element will clear just fine though.

I also put the stock air cleaner on there because early on I thought I might use it... but just Looks funny.  :005:

The ideal backspace to center a wheel in the '57 rear fender well with stock width rear end is.  7" wide 4.75" back space or 8" wide with 5.25".   If you want to use common off the shelf wheels which are often 4.5" back space on an 8" you would need to narrow the rear end housing by .75" per side which centers the wheels and aid in ease of removal. A 255 tire is an easy fit with the wheel centered in the fender well.  It always good to fold/roll the rear edge of the fender well(verses trimming) where the tire is tire gets the closest.

Quote from: suede57ford on 2017-10-03 21:28
The ideal backspace to center a wheel in the '57 rear fender well with stock width rear end is.  7" wide 4.75" back space or 8" wide with 5.25".   If you want to use common off the shelf wheels which are often 4.5" back space on an 8" you would need to narrow the rear end housing by .75" per side which centers the wheels and aid in ease of removal. A 255 tire is an easy fit with the wheel centered in the fender well.  It always good to fold/roll the rear edge of the fender well(verses trimming) where the tire is tire gets the closest.

Can you give me the rest of the dimensions on the 255 tire. I assume we are talking 15 inch wheels.......is that correct? 255 /______/15? 
I've narrowed the rear end .75" on each side and plan on 15 X 8 wheels. Your backspacing information is very helpful
As well, I've changed the wheel well opening,by eliminating the reverse curve, as the forward portion of the wheel well opening meets the rocker. I read here on the Forum that change would allow for a larger wheel/tire combination, or maybe it was allow easier on and off of a large tire/wheel combination.
The aspect ratio on the 255 tire you refer to would be very helpful.
Thanks
John

Quote from: gasman826 on 2017-10-03 13:16
...gonna rub...hard

That has been my experience as well. Expect at LEAST 1/4" lateral movement in gentle turns. I am planning on 15 x 8s with 5" backspace on the rear at some point. (Unless I have the axle narrowed.)

Quote from: billd5string on 2017-10-03 19:34
I finally got time to put the new intake on. When I mocked up the carb and air cleaner, it won't fit. I am pretty sure a 2 1/2 inch element will clear just fine though.

I also put the stock air cleaner on there because early on I thought I might use it... but just Looks funny.  :005:

Drop base air cleaner would work also. Iv'e got a 4" K&N on mine with around 1/2 or a bit more clearance. Your Performer intake is lower than my Stealth so you would clear easily.

Bill, the Torque thrust look great on your Del Rio. keep in mind that it's not only tires rubbing against the fender lip but also inside the wheel wells. if your car is lowered in the rear, the actual wheel wells need just a little hammering in the rear area as well. I found that 225s or 235 will just work with 15x7 and 3.75 BS. which is exactly what I had on the DR with cut fender well lips and slightly hammered wheel wells.
I found that I didn't like the 235s thinband nor the 225 WWWs in looks and I am back to 8.00 Goodrich WWW bias plies on the CS, they look so much more natural than wide radial IMHO.
Of course your FE will fry them off the wheels though...

I haven't been around much lately, I bought a house and have been moving. Yesterday was a landmark day though - for the first time for sure in 25 years (maybe more), the Del Rio spent the night in a garage. She looked so good sitting on the flatbed truck - I saw several neighbors come out to take a look.

It will probably be quite a while before I can work on it again, but at least she's inside and sure looks cool sitting on the ground. I never liked to leave it on the ground at the other house because it would have been so easy for someone to just tow it off.

Congratulations on the house.  I must agree that cars look better on the ground than elevated.  It may be some time before I get mine back to ground level. 

 Did you move very far? I'm sure glad my '57 was on the road when my wife decided it was time for a change of scenery. I've managed some road trips and a few shows, but a far cry from what I had hoped this summer would be like. Like you, mine does have a nice garage now.
Ha....electrical, plumbing, painting, brickwork, finish carpentry, drywall finishing, wallpaper, etc etc. At least all this work is getting me in better shape than I was.
Oh well, I was just typing this while I was giving my arms a rest. back to plastering.