Guys,
I just found out my lower ball joints, the idler arm bushings and one outside tie rod end was not up to par thus I couldn't get my front end aligned. I've ordered everything to fix it and I thought I'd go ahead and fix the front spring height while I had the A-Arms apart. I replaced the coil springs twice trying to get the right height but I'm still down about two inches at the front bumper. Here's what I want to do, so anyone with experience jump in here. I can use your reasoning.
The free height of my original springs was 15.55". The springs have a deflection rate of 400lbs per inch. I guesstimate that the original 312 engine along with a fordomatic transmission gave me an advertised front end weight of 2375 lbs. This will give me a collapsed coil height of 9.612 inches. This is stock configuration.
THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE SPRING SHIMS CLAIM THAT FOR EVERY ONE INCH OF SHIME THICKNESS, YOU RAISE THE FRONT OF THE CAR TWO INCHES. REMEMBER THAT (if it's true).
I've got a set of 63 Galaxie springs with a free height of 16.812". It also has a deflection rate of 400lbs. per inch. With the bigger 390 engine, Tremec and bigger capacity radiator I guesstimate the weight on the front of the car at 2450 lbs. This will give me a collapsed coil height of 10.687 inches. That's approximately 1 inch taller than stock. IF THESE CALCULATIONS ARE RIGHT, IT SHOULD PLACE THE FRONT BUMPER TWO INCHES HIGHER.
AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE OR AM I LUCKING OUT WITH THESE 63 GALAXIE SPRINGS. Jim
tell me the model and engine and i will get you the stock spring info
Canada,
Fairlane 500 63A, 390 ci engine. Jim
Maybe a 58 with 352?
here is the spring info from 1958.it is 98% the same as the 1957 chart.will need to cut the chart up to make it fit
the next part
part 3
part 4, hope this info helps
Guys,
I got through putting my old 63 Galaxie front springs in the 57 today. I'm getting pretty good at taking them apart and putting them back together again. This makes the 4th set of springs I've had under the front end in two years. Now if I could walk and the pain would go away I'd be fine. This is what I found. I was carefull to check bumper Height at the same place ( license plate bracket hole) each time.
1. Original set of old springs----Free Ht.= 15.450", Weight rating = 400lbs per inch travel----Front bumper Ht. 15" . 2" too low.
2. Springs from Eaton Detroit to give me 2" at bumper---------Car looked like it was climbing a mountain and rode like a log wagon, sent them back.
3. Springs from Eaton Detroit --Free Ht. = 15", Weight rating unknown---Car rode almost level for a year, then went down again. Bumper Ht. 15".
4. Original springs from 63 Galaxie---Free Ht. = 16.812", Weight rating = 400lbs per inch travel---- Bumper Height 17.750". But, I haven't drove it yet, it may get lower after I hit a few bumps and cycle the springs a few times.
The car came new with a 15.55" Free Spring Height and a weight rating of 400lbs per inch travel. The rear springs are about 4 years old from Eaton Detroit, it raised the rear bumper about 1.750" when I installed them. The old rear springs were pretty bad.
Conclusion: It's about 3/4" too high right now, hope it comes down a little. By using the same weight rated spring I found out for every 1" you add to the spring you get 2.16" at the bumper. I hope my pain and suffering can help someone else out there. Jim
Guys,
Do you know if Ford makes different rear leaf spring hanger lengths. I don't want to use the pick your hole and put a bolt through it type hanger, If I need to raise the rear just a little I'd like it to look original. Jim
The spring hangers were all the same, so was the arch of the main leaf, all Fords sat the same when new.
The shackle could only be one length in reality as the sring end was hung on the hanger and was located between the hanger and the frame....not under the hanger (between the ground and the hanger) as seen on many of the cars with worn out springs which there were many!
BlueBlood,
My 57 has the hanger underneath. I thought all 57 Fords were. I know the 63 Galaxie has it like you said. Jim
OH NO,
I've got the shackles flipped on the rear leaf springs and didn't realize it. No wonder the front end of the car was always too low. It must have happened when I replaced the rear springs back in 06. Jim
Quote from: JimNolan on 2011-02-26 17:18
OH NO,
I've got the shackles flipped on the rear leaf springs and didn't realize it. No wonder the front end of the car was always too low. It must have happened when I replaced the rear springs back in 06. Jim
i feel your pain.one time i had a no start,replaced the points,no start,replaced the coil,no start,found the ballest resister was bad.
Guys,
I may be better off than I thought I was. The measured height is 8 7/8" from the floor to the bottom of the rocker panels, front AND rear. The car still looks higher in the front but it may be me since I've only seen it lower. I've got a full tank of gas too. Anyway, the front of the car still bounces pretty good when you push up and down on it, so hopefully I won't have too hard a ride. I've got the new ball joints, steering cylinder and tie rods in so I'm going to get it aligned and run it like this for awile.
Does anyone know where you're suppose to measure a 57 ford to check level. As far as the rear shackle goes, I like where the fender is on the wheel now so I think I'll leave the shackle where it is. Jim
Guys,
Got the front end aligned today. The right side took a whole lot of shims to push the A-arm out at the top. The Left side took more shims but not anything like the right side. In fact, the guy said it still wasn't perfect but he ran out of adjustment on the length of the bolt. That don't sound right. Could I have the wrong upper or lower A-arm on the right side. Has anyone ran into this before. I realize raising the front of the car would place the top A-arm farther into the frame but it looks like both sides would be the same anyway.
As far as steering goes with the car jacked up I've got two words for it, HAH-HAH. As in funny. The front end feels as if there's no weight on it and you would call the steering touchy as hell, not steering play, just fast. This could take some getting used to. It might be all right without power steering but I've got power steering. I really like the stance of the car. It's ever so slightly raised in front but it looks really good. Overall height with the rear shackles flipped is about 1.75" higher than stock. The original specs was to have 7.1" ground clearance and my rocker panels are 8 7/8" front and back from the ground. I realize most people nowadays use dropped spindles and try to get the car close to the ground. I gotta be different I guess. The ride of the car feels about the same, it's a comfortable ride leaning toward the soft to medium side, not a rough ride at all.
If anyone has an idea why the right side took more shimes than the left, let me hear it. Jim
I don't know if your ears were ringing yesterday Jim. I told my son in Fla your saga of changing the springs 4 times. We put the 429 C-6 in his 59 Edsel wagon over thanksgiving and this weekend he was going to put the 69 Mercury Marquis front disc spindles on it. We decided to try the 69 merc springs to compensate for the weight of the engine. The 69 wire diameter is slightly less than the 59 but 2 coils higher. Spindle overall height is the same 69 and 59. What we DIDN'T figure on is the 69 lower arm is longer, mounts lower. After tightening the 69 springs almost to the point of coil bind he was able to get the spindle in and tightened. Releasing tension on the spring compressor bowed the spring to the outside and jammed the compressor arm against the lower arm. After carpet bombing his yard with the F-bomb he resigned himself to putting the Edsel springs back in. He was NOT in a good mood when we spoke last nite! I told him how you've done the same job 4 times to his 2. I don't think it cheered him up that much :002:
Bossguy,
I've driven my car about 200 miles since I got the bright idea to raise the front of my car. I wasn't going to post anything more about it but since you wrote I'll tell you this. I ain't going to drive this car another mile with the suspension the way it is now. I'm putting the original springs in the front and turning the rear shackles back the way they suppose to be. I'm fed up. The steering is funny as hell, every time you hit a big bump the top A-arm hits the frame on the way down and you think you broke something, the alignment isn't worth s_ _ _ , I had good alignment before I started this mess and the ride isn't as comfortable.
I've come to the conclusion Ford is smarter than me and I'm going back to the way they had the suspension. Raising the car isn't worth the headache. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that lowering the car does the same thing.
Now I don't think my conclusion applies to a car you don't drive that much. But to use a car as a daily driver as well as every trip you take you need more than what I have now. Looks aren't everything. Tell your son I hope he has better luck than I did. Also tell your son that playing with the rear suspension is a whole lot less fustrating. The geometry of the front end was designed, I learned that the hard way. Jim
It'll look a whole lot better with the rear shackles flipped back
over and better on the springs.
Shoprat,
Just got back from the hanger. I took the coil springs out and as soon as I sandblast and paint the ORIGINAL coil springs it goes back together. AND, the rear shackles gets flipped back the way they suppose to be. I could have lost functioning body parts and not be as upset as I am with this ordeal.
But, I have learned this. The only time you need a spring compressor is when you install a spring. That's just so you can gradually raise the bottom control arm and be able to rotate the spring to correct position on assembly. The floor jack method is great to take springs out. I was out at the hanger about two hours and had the springs out. I'll put it back together and reverse the rear shackles tomorrow. Jim
Quote from: JimNolan on 2011-03-07 12:38
I've come to the conclusion Ford is smarter than me and I'm going back to the way they had the suspension. Raising the car isn't worth the headache. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that lowering the car does the same thing.
Jim I have come to the same conclusion you have with respect to the engineers, Ford pays them a lot of good money to figure that stuff out. Many of my street rod buddies give me cr## for digging around to find factory parts for the brakes and the drive train etc....but....the ol 36 street rod has 136K on it with only one break down in all those miles and that was my fault (rear u-joint that was judged to be OK and not replaced). That happened on the way to the Street Rod Nationals from Norfolk, VA in 1982 on I-80 just outside of Southbend, IN at 5PM on a Sunday evening. Did you know they roll up the side walks on Sundays there (at least in 82).
Lowering doesn't bother them as much as raising. As long as you still have some suspension travel. Dropped spindles are the best way to drop the front and re-arching the springs in the rear is the best back there. 2" can be done and not hurt a thing, more then that and the travel thing gets to be an issue.
My last one was plenty low and it drove like a Lincoln. I only hope this one rides as well. As long as you dont get silly trying to look mini-truck low, they work well. The 57 has about the most well thought out design.
Guys,
I'm done. Finished today around 2:00pm. The car sits level and lower. The front bumper height is 13 1/4" to the center of the license plate braket holes. That's bringing it down 3 1/2". I have no idea what I thought I was doing to begin with. Putting the rear shackles back where they suppose to be brought down the rear about 3".
I took it down the road about 10 miles and the ride was great. I could feel the wheels again. It didn't act like it wanted to dart somewhere. There's no noise coming from the front end when you turn sharp or hit the railroad tracks. I'm happy. I made an appointment to have the front end realigned on Thursday.
Now I've got a question. When they realign the front end and position the steering wheel, does the engine need to be running to make sure the power steering directional control valve doesn't have slop in it. When he got through the last time the steering wheel wasn't in the correct position. Jim PS. Can you believe I had the (X&*%$#)!@) jacked up 3 1/2 inches. I don't even go mudding.
I have long held that if they were intended to be up in the air they would have wings.
BlueBlood,
When I get the front end aligned Thursday I'm going to bring it home and take a picture just like the one I took last week. I'll post them on this thread just to give you an idea of how high it was. Jim
PS. I want to personally thank you for pointing out to me that my rear shackles were flipped. I installed new rear springs right after I got the car in 2004. All this time I've been fighting with Detroit Eaton and installing new springs to try and make the car level again. I didn't realize I had raised the rear, I just thought the old springs had worn that much. As I get older I need to pay more attention to how I take things apart. I'm beginning to believe that the body isn't the only thing that goes with age. Jim
When I did alignments at the Ford shop, we had the engines running on cars when we set the steering wheel to center, not always though. The front wheels are on turn tables, so they should center correctly. If they know what they're diing, the wheels will be centered.
James,
I read the repair manual and at the front it says to have the engine running when doing Toe-in and Steering wheel alignment. The guy that did the wheel alignment was able to do a better job this time without using 2 pounds of shims. It drives great and doesn't have any noises.
I'm including two pictures, one last week when it was 3.5" / 3.0" higher and one today that is using the 54 year old front springs and newer rear stock springs. Jim
Very nice! Yup, that 4 X 4 look had to go.....
I agree, it looks great now Jim
Jim...I bet you're just tickled to death we're not all saying we liked it the other way better. Looks natural now. Rich
Rich,
That did cross my mind. I still like a car up in the air. I just didn't account for a geometry problem. Now I'm so exhausted, I am just tickled to death to get it to drive right.
I got to watch both alignments made to the car. This time the guy was able to obtain just exactly what the specs called for. I think he was more tickled than I was. Plus, he has enough shims left over to align three more cars. And, this time he set it with the engine running, he said that made a difference.
If I had done more research and talked to more people I wouldn't have found myself in that predicament in the first place.
Thanks guys for all your help and moral support. Jim
So much better :004:
It looks great as usual Jim. I hadnt seen it since you were here in MS a couple years ago.
Jim...this is probably a good spot to remind guys that are doing a front spring removal that the method you are using only works on a complete assembled car. You need the weight of the sheetmetal nose and the engine to keep the car from raising when you break loose the ball joints. On a car that's been stripped down to the frame and suspension only, forward of the firewall, you need to have a mechanical means of slowly letting the control arms seperate and containing the spring. If you don't, when you break the ball joint loose, the car can suddenly raise itself from the force of the spring, posibly dislodge the jack under the control arm, and do some serious damage. I used a 5/8 allthread rod down thru the center and thru a steel bar below the lower control arm to give me a method of slowly releasing the spring. and containing it should something unexpected happen. Rich
Rich,
You're absolutely right. Those springs pack a punch when released suddenly. Even with the weight of engine, radiator, bumper and front sheetmetal, my car raised a little off the jackstands when first released. Without a good roll-around floor jack I wouldn't have attemped it. The swing of the lower control arm makes it impossible for a small hyrdraulic jack to be used. It's pobably best to use some form of spring compression for disassembly as well as assembly. That way it wouldn't matter what kind of jack you use.
Something else I found helpful when PLAYING with different springs when you're not for sure what the final outcome will be is to coat the ball joint stud with a release agent. When you take them apart the next time all you have to do is back the nut off and use a punch to whack the top of the bolt and break it loose from the spindle. That keeps you from tearing up the rubber umbrellas on the ball joint with a pickle fork.
Another helpful hint is to measure the distance in the lower control arm from the end of where the spring will set to the lip that holds the spring in position during assembly. That'll be about 10 1/8". Then transfer that measurement to the spring and use a little spray paint to mark the spot. That way during assembly you just put that mark on the lip of the control arm and the spring is in the right location for assembly. Saves time. Jim PS. Again, thanks guys.