Up Front Edit:.........there ended up 3 pages on this thread trying to sort out issues. For the most part, my posts can be pretty much ignored until post # 43. As Lynn has posted, it pretty much all depends on having the correct glass size. If glass was cut to the template supplied with the bracket/support kit, your glass is too small. Mine was. Finishing up the install on the second side this week, I found an easier way to get a really good fit without having to get new glass cut or fiddling with wood spacers.
This is regarding the conversion to a fixed rear window for the Custom 2 dr models ala Business Sedan. Honestly, I have no idea how Ford assembled these at the factory, but after finally getting it to work correctly, I'm assuming it may have been similar in effect to what I did, just different materials.
This has been a frustrating issue for years for a number of us. I had the installation done but was never happy with it, so when I pulled all the side glass out to repaint my car, I was determined to get it right if it was possible when I reassembled the car. The issue seemed to me and others to be the width of the glass channel moulded into the rubber seal. This turned out to be a non-issue with the way I ended up doing the install (on the 3rd approach this time).
Disregard any previous suggestions I made on this install.
This install will require the seals from Dennis Carpenter, the brackets from John (1957ford.com) and the glass cut to the pattern John supplies with the brackets. You will also need some shims like the household variety you use shimming new doors and windows. I found some plastic ones that worked out nicely because they are narrower than the wood variety that would have to be narrowed lengthwise. I found them at Sutherland's Lumber, and you will need 2 packages of 20. I also used some 1/4 x 1/4 poplar wood strips from Lowe's similar to the balsa strips for model building.
to be cont.
An overview of the project and issues to get you guys following along my train of thought:
Firstly, the Dennis Carpenter seals are made from an extrusion glued at the ends to form a circular seal. I would imagine the original FORD seals were moulded to the shape of the window, especially at the corners. The crossection of the DC extrusion is pretty heavy on the inside lip and there is just no way to bend it around the corners without the inside puckering alot. More on the fix for this later. The outside lip that conforms to the body is very thin and will conform to the tight corners with no puckering.
In the past, the wide width of the glass channel was of major concern to me and others, but in reality, it doesn't seem to affect the final fit.
When I installed the glass the first time a few years ago, and installed John's brackets they were not doing anything because they are quite a bit below the assembly. I thought I had just wasted my money, but on this way of doing it, they become very important, which is why I think Ford may have done a similar install.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the glass pattern from John makes the glass 3/16" too short on the length and 1/4 to short on the height, but there is a fix for this. The reason I'm not sure the glass is too small is that I may have stretched out the seal removing and cleaning it from the prior installation.
The overall thinking is that the rubber seal must conform to the body and seal against the glass both on the inside and the outside. With that in mind, the only way that is going to happen is if the glass is the correct shape and size all the way around to push the seal into place on the body. If the glass is too small, as mine is by the mentioned dimensions, it won't push/pull the seal all the way in place against the body. Likewise, the seal must be supported on the inside to keep it from just falling away from the glass and to maintain the pressure on the outside. This is where John's brackets come in.
The step by step in the next post.
step 1: assemble the seal onto the glass dry. It probably will be loose and wanting to fall off.
step 2: install the brackets from John per the instructions.
step 3: Install the glass/seal into the window opening dry. The plastic pry bars are really helpful here to pull that outer lip over the body window lip, as are a second pair of hands pushing on the glass lightly from the inside. If you're working alone, just reach in from the door to push out on the glass until enough of the seal is pulled over to hold it in place.
step 4: from the inside push up and towards the back on the glass/seal. wedge two shims (front and back) in place temporarily between the seal and John's bracket on the bottom to push the assembly tight against the top. You want the seal tight up against the inner sheetmetal just inside the window.You'll also need a shim between the seal/and the door post to push the window all the way into the back corner. At this point you should see the seal tight against the body all along the top. There is a lot of back and forth from pushing the seal in place from the outside, and pulling it tight from the inside. From the inside I use a pair of mini smooth jawed flat nose pliers.
Being pushed against the inner structure tightly, the seal will pretty much stay in place where it is pulled/pushed. Notice what is happening up top....the glass is pushing the seal against the inner structure, holding the backside of the seal square to the glass and everything is in place where it should be, against the body and against the glass (outside and inside). So, now we just need to duplicate what is happening up top on the bottom and the front edge.
to be cont.
From this point, your install may or may not be a little different depending on how tight your glass is pushing your seal in place on your car.
step 5: If your glass is pushing/pulling the seal up tight against the body, then you only may have to add shims tightly between the rubber and John's bracket on the bottom to support the seal. If it is not tight, as mine wasn't, then pull the seal in the position it should be in, then peak inside the seal to see how much space is between the glass and the seal. This space/air gap needs to be filled, and this is what I used the 1/4 x 1/4 wood strips for. Yours may vary, but on mine, the full 1/4"width was needed along the bottom. It has to be tight enough so there is no movement of the seal on the outside of the body, so I just put in 5 or 6 inch lengths at a time working around the temporary shims holding up the assembly. After I got the gap eliminated on the inside in one area, I used the tappered shims to hold everything in place tight. You will have to do this all along the bottom and along the front. Note the brackets now actually have a function!!
On mine, I had to whittle the 1/4" wood down to about 3/16 to fill the gap on the front vertical edge.
I also had to whittle down 3 banana shaped pieces about 3/4" long to fill the gaps at the corners so the corners on the outside would pull against the body.
step 6: everything at this point should be tight everywhere and nice and even except at the 3 inside corners where the heavy rubber just won't fit down against the glass. This bad puckering is what makes me think the original FORD seals were made to the shape of the glass.
(Keep in mind the garnish rail is/should be pushing against the seal squeezing everything together,) I do not see any option at the corners other than carefully doing some pie cuts on the corners so the rubber will lay down flat. That's what I did, then used a few drops of Gorilla gel super glue to glue the corners against the glass I wished I was a little neater doing it, but the garnish rail will cover most of the seal.
Today I need to dig out my garnish rail and make sure the wedges as installed do not interfere with it's fit.
At this point, the seal looks good and fits tight enough against the body and glass that it should be watertight, or pretty close. Keep in mind the original roll-up windows were never designed to be watertight.
Sorry for the lengthly thread
Thanks for taking the time to post that Rich. I plan on doing the install on mine as well.
James is doing his soon as well, so figured I'd better get it posted asap.
It took about 4 or 5 hours to get the one side done, btw, but that's alot less than my previous attempts when I was trying to build up the glass width around the periphery and attaching the seal to the glass before installation. Results on this method were 100% improvement.
After I check the garnish rail for clearance on the shims, I'll run some aluminum tape to keep them from vibrating/falling out.
Some pics......
A head's-up: Notice in the second pic, top right, the seal has some distortion. This is where they glued the extrusion, and I should have put it up top so it was less noticeaable.
The third pic shows the drastic pucker on the inside, and also shows the little wooden corner piece that was used to fill the corner airgap and get the outside of that seal against the body without puckers. That's the same corner shown in pic #1
The last pic: Notice how the seal is against the glass and even inside and out where the final shims are wedged in place. Where the temp. shims are, the seal just doesn't fit against the glass or body
a few more...self explanitory. The last one does show one corner pucker eliminated by cutting and super gluing.
Thanks for that Rich. I made this sticky so it will stay up top. Good article.
Rich--What are the advantages of converting from the roll-up to the fixed rear windows? I don't have a '57 2-door sedan (unfortunately), but I do have a '56 Fairlane Club Sedan with nicely-functioning roll-up rear windows. Just curious what the advantages are for going to the fixed glass. Thanks, Ron...
The general/original idea for me was to eliminate one souce of leaks. As you know, the tracks and other window fuzies stuff doesn't keep water out, but as the newer cars with rubber seals replacing the fuzzies with rubber should seal better. Had I known they were going to take so much to figure out how to install, I probably would have just installed the power windows as I did in the front. One other thought was, for me, I never rolled down the back windows and don't expect too many passengers in the back that would want it.
That said, now that I know how to do it, it's really not so bad....at least it's a lot easier and simpler than my lengthy how-to posted above. Sorry for that...I could have said it all with one paragraph probably:
Put the seal on the window dry and install it into the car. Push the window up tightly against the top and back and you will notice the seal hugs the body outside and is against the window inside. Now, dulicate what is happening up top by filling in the bottom and the front with spacers. You may have to do that with spacers between the glass and rubber to pull the seal tight against the body, then fill the space in with shims.
lol, only me could turn that paragraph into three or 4 legthy posts!
I just purchased the "70D fixed window kit" from John Gambill Sr. I am thinking they may not be available in the future. Rich, you may want to list Gambills' email address as a source for these.
Yes, good point for now anyways. I'll check into getting the listing changed since the .com is currently not up. It's probably best to wait a little since there is a business dealing going to be happening that I don't want to interfere with. What I'm getting at is I don't know if James is going to add paid advertisers like apparently John had at the 1957ford site.
Well I have received my brackets from John and the gaskets arrived today from Dennis Carpenter. I am ready to purchase the glass. After reading your thread Rich I am wondering if the glass template is too small. I looked at the glass shown on eBay from Auto City and it doesn't look like the template at all (assuming the picture is accurate). I am thinking about starting with a piece of plywood cut oversize...Rich what are your thoughts? Anybody care to comment?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-1958-FORD-2-DOOR-SEDAN-BUSINESS-COUPE-CUSTOM-QUARTER-GLASS-GREEN-TINT-/291113655377?hash=item43c7b9dc51:g:-X8AAOSwNKRXiSD5&vxp=mtr
I used the supplied template for the glass...fit fine.
my template said not to scale on it, but to remove 1 inch from the bottom of the roll up quarter window. I apparently didnt finish trimming my template, because when I took it to the glass cutter, my quarter windows are now too big, and I have to take them back tomorrow to get a bit taken off. The template fits perfectly inside the window opening, with no rubber on it. There is no way it will fit with the rubber. I am taking it back to have 3/16 taken off all the way around. Hopefully, it will work. I fitted my heavy cardboard template inside the rubber, and it looks much more likely to go in than the other. If this doesnt work, I will be buying two tubes of urethane windshield adhesive, and glue the devil in....SHould not be this big a PIA to get quarter windows in.
James, did you get your rear windows installed? I just had a spare rear window cut per the template, haven't started the install yet. If the glass looks like it will fit I am going to use it as a template for new tinted glass.
BTW, my template said remove 1.375". I spoke to Auto City Classic Glass, they use National Auto Glass Specifications templates and they list the same template for a Business Coupe and a 70A/70B. The guy said they don't show a 70D for 1957.
I cheated and took my Custom to a trusted glass shop to install front, rear and quarter glass and cut the door and vent glass. They are an old 'ma & pa' shop with no access to a national database for patterns. I had to provide old door and vent glass for patterns. I provided them with the template in the kit for the 70D quarter glass. I picked up the car with the glass installed. I asked if there were any issues. The installer said no problem.
That's cheating!!! :003:
figured if they broke it they bought it
When I installed mine, I just couldn't see there was any way to not have some major puckering in the inside corners.....so, what did they do?
Even experienced installers had a couple of small puckers. It is very difficult to reproduce 'factory' installations. I am NOT an experienced glass installer but I occasionally dealer installed sliding windows in pickups. I soon found that I had a better job if I reused the OEM gasket rather than the new gasket included with the sliding window. Was the OEM gasket better, had it already taken a set, was the factory installer better...any or all the above. At this point, OEM gaskets are 60 years old and can't be reused, new OEM gaskets are scarce, new gaskets are likely from one source, and old, experienced installers are just about as scarce as NOS gaskets. The first picture shows a slight pucker at the very tight radius of the quarter glass. The second picture is the rear glass black spline as the finish trim and not using the stainless trim. The corners did not lay flat. Time and training has resolved these issues. Like Rich, I used shims as well as glue and tape to train the puckers into submission or at least acceptable.
rear quarter glass: I got the outside of the corners to lay down pretty well, it was the inside I was asking/wondering about. In the long post I did , I outlined how I had to pie cut the seal on the inside in several places and glue it together.
I think the difference we're seeing between our results and the factory's 60 years ago is how Dennis Carpenter makes the fixed window seals from long extrusions just gluing the ends together, and the factory probably used molds in the shape of the glass. This would have produced left and right hand seals though, so maybe my thinking can be researched by checking to see if the oem part numbers had left and rights.
In the parts book I have I can't seem to find the fixed windows anywhere.
May be in the trim and sealant manual...I'll look later.
It is.........and it only shows one part number for the seals. That tells me no left and right, so couldn't have been molded to the shape of the window.....maybe Carpenter IS making them as oem.
The manual also calls for a sealant between the glass and the weatherstrip/seal and a sealing tape over the upright/top leg of the glass support before it's assembled.
That mentioned Body, Trim, and Sealant manual is imho even more useful than the owner's manual. and they are being reproduced.
Well today I got one side "installed" on a trial basis. I had an extra roll up glass cut down locally per the pattern with John's brackets. I cut a template matching the grove depth and used it to set the bracket depth accordingly. Next I taped the gasket on the inside of the window and worked the rubber gasket into place around the frame with no lubricants or sealants of any kind from the outside. It went a lot better than I ever thought it would.
Once in...the glass slides front to back at least 1/4", but not up and down much. The gasket fit fairly well, but it would have fit A LOT better had the lower corner radii had been much smaller and the glass longer.
Conclusion: The pattern for the window is wrong. The shape for the roll up window is slightly smaller than the fixed window for clearance, the lower corners need to be sharper (the template says radius the glass with no specificity) to stretch the gasket to fit. :003:
I will make a plywood template to trial fit before having a second glass cut.
At one time back a few years ago, I was emailing back and forth with John Gambil about the corner radii being too large, that the fit would be better if there was more glass left in the corners to push the rubber gasket in place against the outer body. I believe he said he would think about changing the pattern. If your pattern is new, as I think, it apparently never was changed.
back in my way too wordy post here, I mentioned I cut banana shaped filler pieces from 1/4 x 1/4 balsa wood to tuck in the corners.
Not sure if I agree on the "glass longer", based on what I found. I guess I'm thinking we're basically looking at a triangle, so if it's moving front to back, it should also move up and down??
I had alot of space under my glass that had to be filled with spacers (between the glass and seal), so in my case, an extra 1/4 of height would have been real good.
I do have my replacement seal for the passenger side received in now...just need to find time to get it done, and see if I have the same conclusion as before
I spent today making a new pattern, using 1/4" birch plywood. First, I mounted John's brackets high enough to make the depth of the ledge the same on all sides. Next I took a piece of card board and traced the outside edge on it, I added the depth of the channel on all sides and transferred it to the plywood. I wound up with a very snug fitting piece of plywood. Next I measured the thickness of the gasket between the glass edge and the channel and ledge, and then cut that amount off the perimeter. I then test installed the plywood with the gasket. I tweaked the pattern, sanding the edges to improve the fit and now I have a pattern for another piece of glass.
The gasket fits much better now. It is a bear to install but once in the pattern does not move up and down or side to side. The pattern wound up pretty close to the first piece of glass except it is roughly 1/4 longer and 1/8" taller (on the straight sides). I am not quite finished with the pattern but it is close. I will post pics when done.
Please do post your final height and length dimensions. It will be helpful for those ordering glass in the future, and I'll be able to compare your dimensions with my glass when I take my passenger side apart to install the new seal.
I finally got mine in, had to have the set recut, as the 1st ones just would not fit. These ones may be a little small as they seem to fit a tad loose in the hole. I am going to see how it goes. Lynn, if your glass fits correctly, I may have a third set cutt off your template if you do not mind. These were only 30 for the pair, so I can stand a $30 mistake if I have to.
I hope to come up with a good solid accurate template that all can share. I don't mind redoing the glass as well if need be. The plywood is a good first pass but it isn't glass. Will keep all posted! :003:
I finalized my template. It wound up very close to John's except for the length and the corner details. I will have a glass cut and install it as a "proof". All of the corners are pretty good inside and out. Stay tuned..... :003:
Picked up the glass and installed it. The results are not quite as good as I had hoped for. The corners are acceptable, outsides are fine and where the insides are buckled slightly the trim holds them down. The issue I am having is that all along the top the gasket wants to roll out. It is worse with the glass than with the plywood so I will have the glass edges sanded a little rounder in profile (they are more square than I would like). The glass can be shimmed by as much as an 1/8" up and down but it is still pretty tight. A little bit of glue and sealant will fix everything but I am trying to get it as close as I can.
Glad to hear you got the inside of the corners to the point the garnish rail/window moulding will hold it flat. I couldn't get my insides to flatten out any where close. I'm hoping my new rubber will be more flexible.
I don't understand what you are meaning when you say the top wants "to roll out".
My install on the passenger side got shelved for a while.....all the house hunting, and now I've been packing up my garage for the past week or so...haven't hardly made a dent yet.
Your "rolling out" problem: I remember pulling gently on the seal with flat nose pliers to position it correctly, then shimming at the bottom so everything was tight and held the seal where I wanted it. I think the inside and outside will be even height-wise against the glass when it is in the correct position. Not sure if all that is what you're refering to as "roll out"
Just offering. If anyone needs a template off a factory orig. business coupe quarter glass, let me know .
Good to know...thanks for offering. I'm going to use mine as is. Mine were sent to Oklahoma for tempering, so got a bit pricey, and they are close enough.
I don't need a template, but we would be curious to know what the overall height and length are.
Quote from: fordaholic on 2017-02-21 21:31
Just offering. If anyone needs a template off a factory orig. business coupe quarter glass, let me know .
I would LOVE to have an original template! I will PM you.
For you Rich ! 31 3/16 x 13
Thank you sir.
The latest update....I received the template from an original 70D Ford glass from fordaholic (thanks Gary) and I compared it with John's template that came with the brackets, the glass I had cut to match it, and the template I made from scratch. It still seems to me that the main issue is with John's template. The directions on John's template call for a cut to be made 1.375" from the bottom of the 70A glass parallel to the bottom. The resulting glass does not match the original 70D template, the cut should taper from 1.25" in the front to 1.5" in the back. My scratch template matches the front and bottom of the 70D but it is about 3/16" taller across the length of the top and about 1/4" longer in the back with a little variation in the front upper corner curve and the rear curve. I had glass cut to my template locally and installed it on both sides. The rubber lays flat inside and out in the corners with no glue or sealant on both sides. The gasket reveal matches the inside trim well except in the very rear corner. The other issue is the gasket does not want to lie flat against the glass at the top on the inside and it conforms outside with a rounder profile than the front or the bottom (seems like it wants to rotate to the outside a little). While not perfect, the installation is acceptable, I will seal the rubber with 3M Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound 08509.
I think had I used the original 70D template in the first place, this may have solved many issues...???
Lynn, do you mind passing along a copy of that template to me? I was installing my interior quarter trim and my driver side quarter came out...It truly pissed me off so I went to the auto parts store and picked up a tube of late model windshield urethane and glued the glass in without the aggravating rubber. I figured if anyone ever came up with a solution that actually works, I would redo it correctly. FOr now, I am happy with the glued in glass.. When I redo it, it will only be with correct glass and rubber.
Hey James, no problem. I have to be in Biloxi on the Oct 3rd. I have been trying to get over your way to visit with my '57. What are you doing for Cruisin' the Coast?
Quote from: Ron on 2016-10-09 13:16
Rich--What are the advantages of converting from the roll-up to the fixed rear windows? I don't have a '57 2-door sedan (unfortunately), but I do have a '56 Fairlane Club Sedan with nicely-functioning roll-up rear windows. Just curious what the advantages are for going to the fixed glass. Thanks, Ron...
Ron.. I always thought that it was for just a little bit of security for the businessman who had his wares on the back tray behind the front seat. Roll down back windows accidentally open could be a temptation.
Then again I could be wrong and this wouldn't be the first time,
It was cheaper! I did it to reduce weight and the rubber gasket seals dust and water as well as not rattling. The quarter glass didn't go all the way down anyway. Plus it was rare. My '41 business coupe had one wiper, one door lock, one arm rest, and just the left taillight.
Well, I finally got around to replacing the seal on my passenger side, and this time it worked out much better and easier. I'm still working with glass that was cut too small, but there's an easy fix for that with a product I recently found doing house stuff. As Lynn had posted earlier, the seal fitment is all dependent on the correct glass size. I had previously tried to fill that space with wood spacers, a pita!.
I tried the new seal on the glass, and just as before it was way too loose. I already knew the 2 front corners were too big also, not having enough glass material to push the seal into the car's body. Liquid Nails makes a "it sticks almost everything" adhesive called FLEX-IT. The stuff is great for every difficult adhesion problem I've solved with it. It's a full size cartrige. It's like a stiff flexible rubber when it dries. I used the flex-it to build up the edges of the glass. First, I put masking tape on one side, 1/2 the width of the tape overhanging the glass. This let me build up the edge while the glass was laying on a flat workbench. I built it out about 5/16" which I figured was more than I needed. I started at the top front coner and went down and then across the bottom and then up and around the big back corner, ending there. None on the topside. I knew it was going to take a day or two to set up, so I wanted to make sure I had more than I needed so I could trim (utility knife) to the final size without having to do a second buildup and two day wait. After the stuff sets up (I waited 2 days), the masking tape surprisingly peels right off. After I roughly trimmed the bumps and excess blobs, I used a razor blade to trim the topside of the adhesive flush with the glass. The masking tape/flat workbench kept it flush on the bottomside. The Flex-It stuck real well to the glass, as advertised. I then put the seal on the glass for a trial fit. It was obvious I made it too long and the buildup on the large back corner wasn't going to allow the seal to fit into the opening. I trimmed all of what I added to that back corner off and did another checkfit. Perfect! It was about as big as the glass could be and still allow the seal to be pulled outwards thru the opening. After it was set in I had about 1/8" up and down movement, same front to back.
So.........a one sentence summary: build up the edge of the glass to the correct size if necessary, install the seal/glass assembly onto the car.
You'll need someone on the inside pushing outwards on the back corner while you're pulling the seal's outer lip over the body opening.
On to the next step
Materials you'll need to finish up: a pair of flat nose mini-pliers, gel super glue (just 4 or 5 drops), and some wedge spacers the thickness to correspond with how much space you'll have between the seal and the special ss bracket. If you go to Lowe's, tile department, tools and supplies, you'll see bags of plastic wedge spacers used in tileing. They are perfect for this application. Available in different thicknesses, about 3/4 x 1 1/8. Bag of 100 is about 4 bucks. I used the 1/8" thick wedges.
The spacers are used to push the seal/glass assembly to the top of the opening and towards the back. I inserted one spacer in the front window post to push the assy to the back corner, then started at the front bottom. Using the flat nose pliers, pull the inside of the seal up tight. The inside flange of the seal should be level with the outside. Doing that pulls the outside edge of the seal down against the body and the glass. While you're doing this, make sure the glass is pushed outwards against the body. When you have the seal pulled up tight, insert a wedge and force it in under the seal. If it's tight enough, it should keep the seal from creeping back out. keep moving down about an inch or so repeating the process until you're as far back as you can go. There should be a solid row of spacers, minimizing the gaps between. Use the pliers to pull in the seal along the top as well as you go along. When I got to the back half, I had to start stacking the wedges to keep things tight. Push the wedges all the way i, and they won't interfere with the garnish rail. After the bottom is done, do the same on the front verticle edge.
I had no puckering at the large back corner, but there is no place for wedges, so I pulled the seal tight and added two drops of gel super glue on the inside/glass, and on the outside body as well.
The small corners are going to pucker on the inside only, and no place for wedges there either, so I used snips to cut a neat wedge out of the seal, and super glued those corners flat as well after pulling in place with the pliers. make sure the seal is tight in the outside corners against the body and glass while you glue!
A summary......use wedges to keep the seal tight all the way around, and super glue the small corners if necessary..
FINI!! pics to follow.
pics.........