RAWms,
I would like some unbiased input on steering gear, recognizing the fact that you went with Wurth-It Designs product, and the fact you have not gotten your vehicle on the road yet.
I have been researching steering boxes for quite a while and there are many considerations. I hope you can address my questions / facts.
I know the rack design by Wurth-it's is a Caviler rack and is designed for a light weight vehicle, with a turn clock of 3 ½. Additionally, the rack is a good fit; however it does have some geography issues with the connections from the steering column to the rack. Additionally, the steering radius is compromised by a small amount.
The Gearheads box is a direct fit with any column you choose, stock or otherwise. Also this box is designed for cars with a heavy weight and is less expensive.
My question is did you compare the Gearheads cruiser product 605 Saginaw product against Rick's rack. If so could you tell us and the group why you chose Ricks rack over the Saginaw box?
I am on the fence and would really like your input before shelling out a lot of cash.
Many Thanks,
Patrick
Patrick Go to this site there are more people that have done the conversion. http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/Default.aspx and do a search a lot of talk about R&P setups :052:
T 8)M :unitedstates:
Wow, thats a bunch of remembering. I will have to go back and think about this some. As background, I had decided on Rick's in setup in Oct. 2005. In fact he was bringing a setup to San Diego when his wife had a serious accident and it was summer 2006 before production was back up and I received mine. That is almost a year of waiting where not having the parts and began to negatively impact my cars progress.
So why did I decide on the R&P? I can't absolutely remember. I did look at Gearheads box option. BTW, I'm running Gearheads motor mounts for the 351W.
My car will not be operational for awhile. Therefore I cannot discuss the pros and cons yet. I can tell you that every car project decision I make has a fundamental principle and that is reliability. For example, my tire sizes for the rear will be the largest I can run and yet if a flat occurs I can change it without a problem. Another example is I decided to build a special bracket for the 100 amp GM alternator instead of drilling out the alternator to fit a 7/16" mounting bolt. That is because if I need an alternator in Bakersfield I can simply go to NAPA. One more example, my '40 Ford street rod runs a Ford 8" rear end. That is because I would have to have narrowed a 9" including the axles (btw, '57 Ford rear fit bitchin but then there is that axle issue again). Again, if in Bakersfield I break an axle I can find one easily and R&R it it a couple of hours. Thats more than you asked but I think it is important for you to know my conservative approach to my drivers. I like performance and fun with a little tire chirping while grocery getting. Also, while I love to build them once I very much do not like going back or re-doing.
Sorry for the long response. I would rather discuss via e-mail (off line) your specific questions as opposed to a public forum. I think that is fairer to the companies. They work hard to serve our rodding needs by providing products that take a lot of dollars to get to market. No one really knows my capabilities or background other than my postings which are :bsflag: probably anyway. (Wow, I finally got to use the smiley!!!!!) I know it is a lot of money and a tough decision. Lets address specifics off line.
Regards, r
After thinking about the topic over night a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, I explored going to the '58 box with it's re-circulating ball. That would have been an improvement over the '57 but still old stuff. I think I wanted the newer technology. btw, when the '57 is operational I have a Fatman Fabrication R&P IFS going into my '40. (Theres that going back on a completed project. At the time I thought I was a traditionalist) The R&P is an easy install and people I talked to raved about the driveability of the car. Also, I thought about the onliine discussion and I'm willingl to discuss specifics. After all that is why this board exists.
r
Now to find another bitchin smliey... :snoopyz:
RAWms.
Thanks for the feedback on the posting. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to a matter of preference. As you pointed out serviceability was and is an important factor in making the decision on which to choose. Additionally size, conformity, operability, reliability and newer technology are all in the mix too. While cost is a factor too, I feel it has very little weight in the decision when we are talking about a critical system which may affect your safety. To your point, if the Saginaw box goes out you can't just swap it out, like a rack module. I would require being rebuilt, which any shop could do since it uses all the stand parts of a 605 box, but it would take time.
I know that both manufactures represent themselves well and stand behind their products and each been featured in numerous magazines.
I have spoken with others, and now know your thoughts on the matter as well, and am unfortunately still on the fence. If anyone else can shed specific experiences and facts on this matter, I am sure I and the rest of the forum would be interested.
I did go the y-blocks forever site but did not find any specifics there.
Thanks,
Patrick
To RAWms. Do you have pictures of your Wurth It Design r&p set up. Do you know what year the Cavalier r&p is from. Thanks HR :111:
I was told it was a Cavalier ~'83 to 94. Here are two picts of the install. Good luck, r
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/57ranchero/RackPinionInstalled.jpg)(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/57ranchero/Steeringlinkage.jpg)
Thank you very much for the pictures. :114: The setup seems to be a big improvement in steering and handling. Thanks again. HR
I can talk about the 605 box . I have one in my 58 that I had built . The 605 box is a good box and it also has a 3 1/2 turn at the wheel . I had built a few of the boxes for members of the original forum and only herd good things about them . I even posted on the original forum how to build your own. the only thing with the 605 box is that the coupler from the box to your column is in the interior of the car about 2 inches . You need to build up your floor around the coupler or use a boot to cover the hole . I don't know about Gearhead box, but you can only use a auto trans with the 605 box I made .I do have a column shifter on my 58. I did have one person modify his box and make it work with his 4 speed . I hope this helps .
Kent
RAWms,I'm copying the r&p setup you're using but doing it a little different. I'm using a plate coming off the r&p but connecting to the stock center link, doing away with the idler arm and using the stock tie rods. I'll try to post a picture later after I get everything figured out , but wonder do you have the part number of the u-joint comming off the r&p?I can figure the rest out but need to know the u-joint from the r&p.
7p
7
7
I went through my technical information file and do not have the Borgeson information. The u-joints came all together with the rp setup. I do not remember any part numbers on the part containers either. If there were I would have probably filed them.
I pulled my Borgeson catalog and on page 3, there are 14 offered. There is one with "GM" be side it. It's "Nominal Size Spline" is 5/8-36, "Approximate Diameter over splines" .625, "Number of full splines in a full circle" 36, and "Borgeson Designation" is 636 with a "*" that states 636 is not interchangeable with the 636C which is for Chrylser.
Hope that helps, r
Thanks anyway.Glad to know their Borgenson,I wondered if they were Borgenson or Flaming River.I'll give their tech dept. a call ...they should know which one he uses.I finished up my mounting brackets this weekend.With a r&p and the metal to make up the brackets ,I have only $100.00 invested so far.ALL I need to do know is figure out the steering linkage from the r&p to my stock column.
Roger,
I have decided to try the Gearheads cruiser product 605 Saginaw power steering solution. Both product solutions are viable. I think there are various opinions as to which are better, right or wrong, and I don't think there is a clear answer to the question. I think they are just different. I ordered the parts January 2nd they are supposed to arrive in about 30 days. :001:
I will post my progress of the installation and include pictures and my opinions under the steering section of the forum. I have been looking at both products for about 18 months now and done a lot of homework contacting owners who had installed both setups, Wurth-it's and Gearheads. Overall the comments were mostly positive about both, other than the delivery delay in Rick's product.
Some things that have influenced my decision to go with Gearheads included the following:
More clearance in the engine bay with the Gearheads solution
Non loss of turning radius, which with the rack the turning radius is reduced :booty:
The Saginaw box was designed for vehicles with a similar weight so the box will not be underpowered or over worked
I had concerns regarding the longevity of the Cavalier rack because it was designed for cars that weigh much less than the 57's, which in my mind may possibly compromise the racks mechanical integrity. :sign17:
Visibly, I didn't like either solution's connecting joints. I came to find out that the rag joint that Gearheads uses can be replaced with small Borgenson joints and actually hidden in the end of the stock steering column shaft making the installation virtually hidden.
I have elected to replace the stock 57 column with a 58 to update the horn and signals, yet retain the stock look.
I may later change the column to a more modern tilt unit which would be easy with either solution.
As to cost, the Gearheads product is significantly cheaper but that was a very small factor in my choice.
Below is a link to Rod and Custom which reviewed Gearheads product if anyone is interested in reading it.
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/135_0404_1950_1960_ford_steering_kit/index.html
Thanks,
Patrick
Dallas, TX
Patrick,
Excellent article from Rod & Custom. I copied for future reference. Something that I'll use later on.
They're never finished you know.
Later, Ron :004:
Ron,
You're right... They are never finished....
What fun would that be! :unitedstates:
Patrick
IM BUILDING A CUSTOM 300 2 DR. I DECIDED AFTER TALKING TO SEVERAL PEOPLE ABOUT STEERING. I CHOSE WURTH IT DESIGNS SYSTEM. I GOT THE POWER RACK AND THE IDIDIT COLOUM. I TOOK THE IDIDIT COLOUM TO IDIDIT AND HAD THEM REGATE IT TO WORK WITH THE AOD AND CABLE SHIFT IM USING. THE MAIN REASON I CHOSE WURTH IT BECAUSE I TALKED TO A FELLOW AT THE DUCKTAIL RUN IN INDIANA. HE HAD A BEUTIFUL 57 RANCH WAGON BLUE WITH FLAMES, HE WAS RUNNING A 429 WITH A C6. HE SAID HE HAD WURTH IT RAC AND IT WORKED GREAT EVEN WITH A MANUEL RAC HE SAID IF HE DID IT OVER AGAIN HE WOULD PROBABLY PUT A POWER RAC IN. I HAV INSTALLED MINE, BUT I'M STILL BUILDING. PUTTING A 351 W WITH AOD AND 350REAR GEAR.
Gentlemen,
I am new here and while Carousing With My Browser, came across this topic. I wish everyone would take the time to read -THIS THREAD- (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/57-ford-gm-605-p-s-wanders-bad-95741.html) concerning the modified Saginaw steering box.
Kultulz,
Thanks for the post; it's a little late for me since the parts I ordered from Gearheads and in the process of being installed. I read the posts and see that these two individuals have apparently had a very bad experience with Gearheads Cruiser products and I find that troubling.
As I had stated in my earlier post, I plan to document the installation of this product on this forum and openly evaluate and rate this product for quality, ease of installation and manufacturer support. I may very well find myself in the same boat as the others, time will tell. On the other hand the box I put in may be trouble free and I may never need the manufacturer support, and therefore be unable to address the issues faced by the people in the other forum. I think if I were armed with knowledge of this other post prior to my ordering, I would have directed my concerns to Frank at Gearheads and let him respond to them.
I do know before purchasing the box I talked to 5 different people who have installed the product and not had any issues. Additionally, I find it somewhat unbelievable, that a company like Gearheads that has been in business 20 years would knowing produce an inferior and potentially deadly product as described in the posts you linked us to. I know they have produced several thousand units over the last several years and if they were all as bad as the linked post indicated than I think we would have certainly heard of more horror stories than just those, and further the company would probably not be in business very long. I do believe they are pretty much like every other company and crank their product out the door in a hurry and am sure they have their quality control issues. How that is addressed is critical.
The bottom line is that if the events happened in linked posts are true; it is hard to get around the lack support issue. However without having both sides of the conversation between the customers and the vendor I don't think we will ever know exactly what transpired.
Time will tell all for me.
Patrick :unitedstates:
Dallas TX
Quote from: briney on 2007-02-19 14:17
Kultulz,
Thanks for the post; it's a little late for me since the parts I ordered from Gearheads and in the process of being installed. I read the posts and see that these two individuals have apparently had a very bad experience with Gearheads Cruiser products and I find that troubling.
As I had stated in my earlier post, I plan to document the installation of this product on this forum and openly evaluate and rate this product for quality, ease of installation and manufacturer support. I may very well find myself in the same boat as the others, time will tell. On the other hand the box I put in may be trouble free and I may never need the manufacturer support, and therefore be unable to address the issues faced by the people in the other forum. I think if I were armed with knowledge of this other post prior to my ordering, I would have directed my concerns to Frank at Gearheads and let him respond to them.
I do know before purchasing the box I talked to 5 different people who have installed the product and not had any issues. Additionally, I find it somewhat unbelievable, that a company like Gearheads that has been in business 20 years would knowing produce an inferior and potentially deadly product as described in the posts you linked us to. I know they have produced several thousand units over the last several years and if they were all as bad as the linked post indicated than I think we would have certainly heard of more horror stories than just those, and further the company would probably not be in business very long. I do believe they are pretty much like every other company and crank their product out the door in a hurry and am sure they have their quality control issues. How that is addressed is critical.
The bottom line is that if the events happened in linked posts are true; it is hard to get around the lack support issue. However without having both sides of the conversation between the customers and the vendor I don't think we will ever know exactly what transpired.
Time will tell all for me.
Patrick :unitedstates:
Dallas TX
Thanx Patrick,
I did not want to start off here with such a controversial post, but thought I should bring it to the board's attention. It is actually hearsay as I have not used the product but I have no reason to doubt their versions. What I find troubling like yourself, is the tech help which appeared to be none.
Anyways, I am glad I have found a forum dedicated to the 57 FORD... :003:
Gary
I think anyone looking at steering check with Better Business B. How they handle customers problems is the final judgement. :deadhorse:
Quote from: redshoes57 on 2007-02-03 16:46
IM BUILDING A CUSTOM 300 2 DR. I DECIDED AFTER TALKING TO SEVERAL PEOPLE ABOUT STEERING. I CHOSE WURTH IT DESIGNS SYSTEM. I GOT THE POWER RACK AND THE IDIDIT COLOUM. I TOOK THE IDIDIT COLOUM TO IDIDIT AND HAD THEM REGATE IT TO WORK WITH THE AOD AND CABLE SHIFT IM USING. THE MAIN REASON I CHOSE WURTH IT BECAUSE I TALKED TO A FELLOW AT THE DUCKTAIL RUN IN INDIANA. HE HAD A BEUTIFUL 57 RANCH WAGON BLUE WITH FLAMES, HE WAS RUNNING A 429 WITH A C6. HE SAID HE HAD WURTH IT RAC AND IT WORKED GREAT EVEN WITH A MANUEL RAC HE SAID IF HE DID IT OVER AGAIN HE WOULD PROBABLY PUT A POWER RAC IN. I HAV INSTALLED MINE, BUT I'M STILL BUILDING. PUTTING A 351 W WITH AOD AND 350REAR GEAR.
Could you give us a little more detail on the column and cable shift? I have AOD also with modified stock linkage (combo of new, old and home made) i always thought cable shift might be the way to go. What cable did you use? How much did IDIDIT charge for the mods, etc; pictures would be great! Thanks!
Hey fellas,
I'm new to this fine forum and I just wanted to let you know that I have installed the :dumbass: modified 605 steering box in my 60 Thunderbird. I am not happy with the performance of this box at all so now I am in the process of fabricating brackets for a rack & pinion conversion based on pictures of Fatmans and Rick Wurth's brackets. It's coming along pretty good so far. You can PM me if you want to know why I am not happy with this steering box. Anyway here is a picture of my car.
Just like all you out there too know -THE EDITOR OF ROD&CUSTOM WENT WITH A WURTH-IT RACK FOR HIS 63. I will be watching how fellow rodder does with Gearheads ,I hope he get's it on the road befor "warranty" is up. :dumbass:
Just thought I would ask how 'briney'/Dalles Tex is coming on his ride?When will it hit the road? What else beside gearbox did he buy.Cooler?,draglink?,idler arm ? or was it even spoken about? :003:
Bagboy, :dumbass: bawl
Parts are currently on the workbench lying beside the box. I haven't really done much of anything to post at this point. My 72 year old mother has been in the hospital for several weeks and my energy and time have been focused on her health care. My brothers and I are in the process of moving her to a rehab unit this next week. Her being located two counties away make it quite a time consuming drive to get back and forth to deal with the issues. I will probably get to working on my ranchero in the next couple of weeks. The car really doesn't seem that important to me right now and is certainly not my priority. I'm sure you and the others understand that.
When I start working on the project I start a new post on the installation along with pictures of everything from what came in the box, to copies of the installation instructions. I will also post how Gearheads Customer service responds if I have technical questions, which I am sure I will.
Roger if you're out there how about some updated pictures of your progress. I would sure cheer me up and I know the other would like to see it too.
Patrick :unitedstates:
Dallas, TX
Patrick,
Not a lot of progress. Broke in the cam and took the front end apart to build an AC bracket which I just picked up today. Today I hope to put on the rear bumper and the engine pulleys to get it timed and on a lift. Kind of slow as you understand.
r
Briney,
I hope your mother makes a full recovery. That must be very difficult.
If your steering box is just sitting on your bench, the next time you get chance to go out there, put the rag joint on the box. There should be about 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. Turn the shaft with your hand using the rag joint till the shaft is centered then lightly turn the rag joint back and forth and see if you can turn the shaft without the sector shaft (where your pitman arm bolts onto) turning. If there is any play in the box, this is your first indication that you may have WANDERING issues. I have about 1/2' to 3/4' play in my box which translates into a few inches up at the steering wheel. This causes me to have to constantly turn the steering wheel back and forth while I am driving to keep the car straight. This is only one issue I am having. I sent the box back for them to look at and they said there is nothing wrong with it. They bench set it and sent it back but there is absolutely no difference. I really hope yours is ok and that your are happy with it.
You have my best wishes with your mother. :006:
All,
My mother is still ill and I am dealing with the drive to take care of her. Summer is here and I can't sleep at night so I have decided to start working on the 605 conversion as stated earlier.
I already have formed some opinions just from reading the literature and inspecting the parts as shipped. I hope to be able to post pictures and information in the next month showing the install.
This is all contingent on things staying stable with my mother.
Thanks all for your patience in waiting on the installation.
I will be candid with the results and let you know how it all went.
For those of you that know me, you know my post have always been very realistic and accurate in my judgment.
Respectfully,
Patrick
Dallas TX :unitedstates:
Interesting coincidence with your post today. I was about to PM you to see what was happening since it had been almost a month since last post. Hope things are improving for your mother. Looking forward to progress reports on your project. r
If you are runing an auto colume, we figured out a much better linkgage setup than came with Gearheads 'kit' .We put an AOD in tho with 59 auto colume. :deadhorse:
I would be interested how Briney in Tex. is doing with gearheads box? :006:
Bagboy,
Had planned to work on it at the begging of the month. I just haven't had the time due to family issues.
Have you installed one? Or are you just interested to see what issues I discover during the process. I feel i should be able to get it in by the end of July.
I have looked at the parts and reviewed the installation notes and it looks pretty straight forward.
Patrick
Yea,I put one in my 57,piece of junk turns out.Save your frame from being modified,check out latest thread on HRBB.Also have pictures of workmanship of sector shaft.Don't waste your time,buy a rack!!!!!!!
Bagboy...what is HRBB?
Cool57,
I can answer that question. It is a site named Hotrodders Bulletin Board the link is below.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/
They have a post under the Suspension - Brakes – Steering section regarding problems encountered with the Saginaw 605 steering box. There are 4 posters who have apparently had a bad experience with the Gearheads power steering unit and had poor customer service when trying to resolve the technical issues they encountered.
I think that they have absolutely had issues and am concerned about what happened to them, however, If you read my earlier posts I stated the following:
"I do know before purchasing the box I talked to 5 different people who have installed the product and not had any issues.
Additionally, I find it somewhat unbelievable, that a company like Gearheads that has been in business 20 years would knowing
produce an inferior and potentially deadly product as described in the posts you linked us to. I know they have produced
several thousand units over the last several years and if they were all as bad as the linked post indicated than I think we would
have certainly heard of more horror stories than just those, and further the company would probably not be in business very long.
I do believe they are pretty much like every other company and crank their product out the door in a hurry and am sure they
have their quality control issues. How that is addressed is critical."
Here is a review of the install showing pictures from R&C.
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/135_0404_1950_1960_ford_steering_kit/index.html
I think that Rick's rack is a good product too. Rick has several write ups in leading magazines as well, but as pointed out by RAWms (Roger), there are some issues he had encountered with Rick's product as well. I don't think there is a perfect steering update being produced for the 57's at this point.
One of the main concerns I have with the Rick's rack is the use of a Caviler remanufactured rack. As you know those cars are half the weight of the 57's. I am convinced that this unit is undersized and will have to work harder to its job. Additionally, that added weight of the vehicle will probably put undue stress on the components causing premature failure and or metal fatigue. On the other hand the 605 box was designed for full sized G.M. cars. Lastly, I personally do not like the geometry involved in hooking the column up to the rack, (see RAWms pictures).
Cool57,
The hobby takes a back seat to my family issues, as soon as I can get my personal issues family issues resolved I will send an update out on the conversion and let you know my impressions of the product. I have all the parts lying on the workbench and have read the documentation. It certainly looks straight forward.
At the end of the day I think it will come down to one's own personal choice on steering products, or any other product for that matter. Things in our hobby come and go "sort of faddish". Big wheels are "in"; blowers were "in" in the late seventies. Cars jacked up in the back in the sixties and seventies were "in", now see how low you can get them, "air ride"
The kind of choice, or disagreement on the best steering system follows the same line as people who buy Ford vs. Ch**y. You will never be able to convince one owner that there choice is not as good as yours, or vice-versa and no matter which one buy you may still get a lemon, just like a car.
Have a good day.
Patrick :unitedstates:
Dallas / TX
I hope yours works,mine was dangerous to drive.I am sure there are more people that got burned that did nothing. Good luck.Keep upto date. Oh by the way the editor of Rod&custom went with a wurith rack for his car,sayes it all I guess.
Patrick,
I've been following this forum for some time, and I used your input heavily in making my decision to go with the Gearheads power steering for my 70A. I just wanted to let you know, we just completed all the body work, installed the power steering, and I am elated with how well it works.
It seems there was no shortage of negative input on this system, and I was getting nervous with my decision. I am happy to say that it works wonderfully, very responsive, no delay or play. I will post some pictures as soon as I can take time away from driving it.
Mark
Libby, MT
Markman,
QuoteI am elated with how well it works.
It seems there was no shortage of negative input on this system, and I was getting nervous with my decision. I am happy to say that it works wonderfully, very responsive, no delay or play.
I am glad you had a good experience with the product as well. It sounds like you are really moving forward in putting some creature comfort updates in your car. I look forward to seeing your pictures posted under the steering section of the forum. Nowadays it seems like you only hear the negative feedback from people. As I stated awhile ago, I find it hard to believe that GearHeads would be in business as long as they have been doing so.
I hope you saw my post on my experience with the 605 box under the general tech discussion part of the forum under the subject "Dick's Drop N' Stop brake update and Gearheads 605 steering box conversion". I plan to post my pictures of the upgrade soon. Did you get a look at the brake conversion I posted this last weekend?
I too am very happy with the Gearheads box and it steers great!
As I pointed out in my prior posts, I am sure some people had problems with their units and that is unfortunate. I feel that if vendors are going to sell products they need to:
1. Stand behind what they sell
2. Be available for support calls
3. Be timely with their responses in resolving issues
It seems that both leading steering conversion vendors have some issues.
I for one indorse the product now that I have successfully installed it and tested it.
Thanks for the feedback on my posts.
I try hard to be as objective and accurate as possible.
Patrick / Dallas TX :unitedstates: