Pictures of EMS patch panel. Two show an old panel I had laid over a new EMS panel. The profile of the old one fits the car well. I didn't want to use it because the flange on the bottom is not as wide as it should be and it does not go all the way around to the tail panel. As you can see when the panels are matched from the wheelwell back the front of the EMS panel is about an inch lower. The other two show the trunk floor brace. EMS does not have a picture of it in their catalogue, I guess they don't want you to see how different it is.
the difference is pretty glaring, Is there any patch panels for the rear quarter which don't have this problem other that your "old" one?
Is the last picture a floor brace?
Our local restoration shop owner says always, always try and get original sheetmetal or try and save your old stuff.
If you look in the review section I go into more detail. I added this because with my computer illiteracy I couldn't figure out how to ad pictures there
Really what i am asking is: Are there any rear quarter patch panels that are regularly available that actually fit?
None that I know of. Most people on this site feel EMS make the best panels so I was hoping that would be the solution. I may have just gotten a bad one, have to see if anyone else has the same problem.
i looked around, yours is not the only issue. I find it hard to imagine that a steel panel could be "mis-stamped", so if there is a problem with yours there is a fundamental problem.
In the gallery section under constuction Jim Nolan had both front and rear 1/4 panels replaced with EMS and they look good. Perhaps he could tell us if his bodyman had thiese problems. I also have fit EMS panels to my Ranchero and there is not the problem you are showing in your photos.
If you also have the front quarter panel section, it would be interesting to see if fender skirts fit. something doesn't seem right with your particular problem...it seems to me if the wheel opening was to low,everyone would have had that problem...wheel openings wouldn't have lined up with the flange on the inner wheel wells, and anyone who used them, and I would have to think it would be hundreds, wouldn't be able to use fender skirts..and that's a problem I haven't heard of. Posibly you may have a bad panel...and yes that's posible...alot of these panels require multiple hits and multiple dies to finish them and it's posible one may have been misstamped...I can't remember if you had both sides and if they were the same.
Is it posible your car had been repaired in the past and the quarters not placed correctly?
on rethinking this...the wheel opening is pretty much what will locate the quarter, so what you need to check, is how much the rest of the fender is off when you locate the opening in the correct position. where the bottom of the fender behind the opening ends up has more flexibility than the wheel opening but it is also located by the inner rear quarter panel.
Someone else a month or two ago also posted a problem with the rear quarters.
I only have the one side and yes there was a previous repair but the inner quarter is original and the existing repair panel lines up OK. If I line the new panel up with the wheel opening the back corner is about an inch too low. I took the panel over to a friends place who has a couple of untouched 57s and the same problem exists. He also has original Ford fender skirts and they do not fit the panel well. Needless to say I was not instilled with a lot of confidence when the guy at EMS said it didn't fit because my Meteor had a Mercury body. I would like to hear more experiences, good or bad, because I'm a little leery about shelling out another $155 and maybe getting stuck with another bad one.
What I would like to see is a 300 panel #179 and a 500 panel #186 side by side. Could be interesting.
Being a meteor, it sure would be nice to get Canadian Ranchero's input on this. I'd try sending him an email at 57meteor@gmail.com., or a pm. Gary's new job keeps him away from his computer most of the time, but maybe you'll luck out.
I'm guessing you have the meteor equivalent of the fairlane 500?? when I did my rear quarters on my 2dr custom(front and back, both sides)I used non ems panels that I had purchased at classicautoparts years back. They were the very first parts I had bought for the '57 and knew nothing about '57 ford part manufacturers whatsoever. I had the same problem I think you were talking about with the old panels you have that you didn't want to use..the underside flange areas were all way to short. The flange around the wheel opening was less than 1/2". To resolve the problem,before installation, I welded a 1" strip of 18ga. all the way around and trimmed off what ended up as excess after it was installed on the car. My panels did come all the way around to the seam under the tailight though.
If it were me, I'd use the old panels you have and add material as needed at the flanges and rear seam. compared to the labor to install the rear quarters, the adding on of material isn't that big a deal. Rich
It's coming back slowly but I'm remembering the panels I used had "made in Dayton" stickers on them, and the right rear panel had an additional problem...the large radius on the very back lower corner was formed with a 2" diamater instead of the correct 4" diameter leaving a "sharper" corner. oddly enough, the left panel was formed correctly, and I purchased both at the same time. I didn't even notice it until I decided to roll my back pan and had 2 different radii. I had to pie cut the corner and reform it. I had noticed the panel was not conforming to the same shape as the inner quarter panel at that corner, but I eroniously contributed that to the fact I had used a '58 donor inner panel on the right side. Rich
A lot of the older patch panels were designed to weld over the damaged metal. I have rockers that just slip on over the rusted out ones. It was a cheap way to patch rust back in the day. I have a set of EMS front pans, inner and outer rockers, and cross members that I am putting in a custom 2dr. After I got the car apart I discovered that I need toe boards and a trans tunnel. I had though that I would order toe boards and tunnel from EMS, but after checking a 57A parts car that I have, I am going to cut the parts that I need from it. A lot more work, but it's orginal ford metal and in good condition.
I think I am going to do what you did Rich. As you said, it's not much to add a strip and a bonus is the crease on the old one is much sharper than the EMS. More work to get a panel off a donor car but well worth it. I have a ford custom 300 I will be "harvesting" some of the stuff from that is the same, unfortunately the quarters are not.
I, had a problem with the quarters on my ranchero.I bought the quarters from a company in canada (when I was just starting out on my project and was very unknowledgable at the time)that were crude and just didnt fit right.I later learned about ems,and bought rockers,inner and outer quarters,all floors and supports and just about everything they sell for a ranchero.Everything they sold me fit perfectly.If ems were not around we would all have a rougher time.Campy
I have followed this post, and while I have not yet (fingers crossed) had to make use of patch panels, I thought I'd give a heads up to Alexander from EMS customer service. I know him from the HAMB where we both are members. I've read his responses over there when customers have questions or problems and he seems to be a standup guy. I contacted him, here is his comment.
Quote
i have been following the comments and photo?s of parts, we realize that the group 57fordforever is a premium site for hard core fans of 57 fords.
i would like to respond directly but after a number days we have not been approved for a login password. so one of our friends who is also one of your friends has agreed to post this for us.
if you remember back 7 years ago before ems automotive began producing parts for 57 fords, the selection was limited and quality poor, slip over panels designed in the early 60?s to quickly patch the car so it could be rolled out on the used car lot were common. these panels are often still found in older body shops as they bought them in bulk.
the photo of a older does not match the ems panel, rideau has not show us a photo of his car. my comment is many cars have been repaired in the past with panels similar to the old rusted one shown could it be possible and probable that rideau?s car was repaired with one of these old panels hence the old panel matching his car??? it seems his car has. we copied a rust free car no dents, no repairs. the inner fender will not locate the 1/4 it is not designed to.
also ems proudly puts there name on all panels you know were it came from. how many other panels you see with no name , many hard to blame who you do not know.
at ems automotive we take great pride and concern in using only the best cars possible for patterns for replacement panels, we have both a 500 and 300 in a heated warehouse for quality control and engineering. this why only ems produces separate 300 and 500 1/4?s.
the 300 and 500 are similar but also have many differences. so a comparison of these panels will show differences as they are different hence 2 part numbers.
our fender lip was made extra long so guys with skirts could have a lip that the skirts will hang on to.
the comments about mercury?s are always difficult as sometimes merc?s are the same and sometimes similar but with a small change and most times a combination of both. 57 merc (small body) share many but not all parts with the 57 ford. ad our answer on fit will vary in accordance with your answer about damage ( sometime part of panel can be used to satisfy the customer needs) and sometimes customers get confused when one part fits great and the next is different. this is the way ford built the cars, not ems?s decision to be helpful or not helpful. we do not like to sell parts when we know they will not fit.
fords made in canada ( and others in overseas markets) will have their unique features and names we do our best to keep track, but some models are low in production hence difficult to track .
as to the rear trunk floor brace, yes it is not a exact copy, 2 reasons , it is a low demand item and the budget does not allow for the stamped ends. and from a practical point it does not add to function, but the open ends of the ems brace will allow for better drainage and air flow to keep the inside dry.
our web site photo?s, yes guilty of poor web site design, when my kids get to be 14 yo i am sure they will create a super web site, but us old guys have trouble with this stuff.
ems automotive will always address customer comments like these we take more time to find the best parts to copy from, (sometimes the best is not so good but all we have) we do not need to hide behind e-mails or answering machines. as i said before we put our name on everything so you know were it came from. we are not that mystery company from that city. and this could make use the 800lb gorilla and easy to pick on.
a bad comparison to a unknown panel is not fair. simply put our panels fit and are manufactured correctly.
we are happy to listen to any other comments from our customers
thanks: ems automotive www.emsautomotive.com
p.s we are looking for some nos front fenders to make a better copy of some fenders parts (borrow or buy)
p.s.s we hope to get our login approved
oustanding response...and very glad to hear the manufacturers are paying attention to us. Thanks Alexander for your time to respond and cool 57 for posting.
Just one note..if I understand the acceptance rules for this website correctly, ems may not be allowed on, nothing personal, just that I believe they don't allow commercial suppliers on to avoid being inundated with propaganda that you know will happen from some...unfair to the ones that wouldn't do that but we all know about the bad apples that ruin things for everybody. Alexander, if you have been following this website as you mentioned, you know the vast majority of us appreciate what ems has done for us, and we will continue to support ems as our needs arise...now for that battery tray repair panel....
Rich
He does make an excellent point, it is hard to say if the original posters mercury was previously repaired and if so what panels were used. I have been following this thread quite a bit as i will soon have to do some rear quarter panel repairs on my 57 Fairlane 500 and i am impressed with the response from EMS. I will check some measurements before i order but probably will go with EMS. Thank you Alexander.
I work in a restoration shop for a living,and 85% of our work is 1970 and back with most of it in the 30's,40's,& 50's.Sometimes we do a late model or insurance job.Even with the technology of todays new cars,when you buy a replacement pannel, or 1/4 pannel,patch pannel,etc.you are very lucky if it fits like it should.Sometimes they have to be modified a little to get everything lined up right.So even as well as our cars were built in the 50's we know the presses and stamps were not as true and accurate then as they are now. At work we have use EMS products a lot over the years and when we have need for a repair they are the ones we look to first.We work on all brands at times and have used different brands of replacement pannels for fords,chevys etc.and beleive me EMS has as good of product as any of them.They are a lot of automobles that you can't get any or no replacement pannels for,so I think we should be happy and thankful for all the different parts they make for our 57 fords.I have no problem with EMS products and sometimes dont mind having to modifying a little, because if you have ever had to make or form a pannel from scratch it can be very timely and still not be correct.I think they do a good job on the parts they produce for us and Im thankful for the products they offer for our 57 fords.We should support these companys because the investment they have made helps keep our cars and hobby alive.Just my 2 cents worth,Thanks Tarheel57 :unitedstates:
What is the user name and email of this user? I will go in and approve him right away, I havent received any of the activation emails back from any of the recent new members. Let me know asap, and I will make that right.
Guys,
Let me throw in about 2 cents worth of information. I never knew EMS existed before I did the total restoration of my Fairlane. The guy that did the body work didn't know they existed either. But, my body man knew everyone elses panels. He has restored a lot of cars and he claims the EMS panels on my 57 were the best he'd ever worked with. That said, the fender lip around the wheel opening is too wide ( my body guy could have trimmed that ). The fender skirts at the rear don't fit perfect ( small gap, same on both sides ). I've tried two sets of fender skirts and they are both the same. My body man had my fender skirts to help with the alignment and that's as close as he could get them. I miked one piece for thickness and it was .050" thick.
I used all the metal compontants that EMS made for my car. My body man even talked to them about making rear inner fenders in the future. I think that EMS would do better if they made the front and rear quarter panels as one piece. But, after listening to the problems my body man said he had with other company's panels, I'll stick with EMS. Jim
a lip that's too wide is a whole lot better than one that's too narrow. A few minutes with a cut off tool and you're done.As I had recently mentioned I had to weld a strip onto mine. Jim by inner rear fenders, are you talking inner rear quarters, which they didn't make until just after I had redone mine, or wheel wells which I hope they make at least patch panels for in the future?
Rich,
I'm talking about the rear wheel wells. The inner fender for the wheel well. They didn't make that part and my body man had to make them. Jim
Quote from: JPotter57 on 2011-02-04 12:03
What is the user name and email of this user? I will go in and approve him right away, I havent received any of the activation emails back from any of the recent new members. Let me know asap, and I will make that right.
James,
here is his HAMB profile http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/member.php?u=22626 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/member.php?u=22626) you can PM him.
I hope this problem gets straitened out, I need to replace the right 1/4 for my 500 but not from rust (body damage). I wonder if EMS will ever produce a full 1/4 panel? Most of my damage is down low and I can make it work with the patches but I would LOVE a full piece. :005:
Ron
thank you for all the nice comments, and a big thanks to "cool57" for making us aware of this thread and for posting our reply prior to us getting approved for membership, our login did come through this evening and we are happy to be on board.
i am sure somewhere there is a place for us to make a profile and we will, but here is a short history of ems and hopefully a few photos if i can get them on
=============
ems machines it own dies, has the largest press's in the repo industry, along with a workforce that getting ready to introduce its 4th generation of workers (shown in photo) to the manufacture of auto parts.
the owners granddad started a fisher body in 1919
the owner worked at gm as a on/duty production engineer
the process engineer's dad stated at cadillac 1948 ,then mercury/edsal 1957
chief press operator 31years at ems and 15 years at dana, his dad started at dana corp 1941 (stamping frames)
press operator helper's granddad started at ford rouge stamping plant 1939, his dad chrysler 25 years and then 15 years at ems
our workers make the same parts there dads and granddads did, 100's of years of automotive production experience at ems, we continue to make tooling for oem's and 1st/2nd tier suppliers to the auto industry.
a actual photo of our parts is posted on our web site ( the web does need some work) why? because customers need to see what there gonna get, don't like it we take it back (30 day limit unless you got a good story).
did you buy the wrong part at a show from one of our dealers and forgot who it was, we exchange it no charge. (you pay shipping)
since ems has been in the industry for a long time and will be here for alot longer the ems company will respect the customer and provide the best part/best value to its customers. we do not try to deceive anyone.
our participation will be limited (by our own accord) to technical assistence to other members, customer service problems brought to us by other members, and ems doing research on 57 fords, mid-year production changes this cause us fits, and issue of overseas or export models.
we wont abuse our membership to endlessly promote sales. we thank the management of 57fordforever for the honor of being accepted to the forum.
Quote from: BAMA_57 on 2011-02-04 21:49
I hope this problem gets straitened out, I need to replace the right 1/4 for my 500 but not from rust (body damage). I wonder if EMS will ever produce a full 1/4 panel? Most of my damage is down low and I can make it work with the patches but I would LOVE a full piece. :005:
Ron
this is a common request but, budget and shipping issue's make it impractical
Bama, in my humble opinion I really don't think there is a problem to be straightened out. If it were me, I'd order the ems quarter without worrying about it. There may be some minor adjustments to be made, but if you have the skills to replace the quarter, any adjustments that need to be made are just part of the project.
when you're talking 50 year old cars, isolated problems, legitimate or not, are not necessarily indicative of the norm, and I think that is the situation here. As I mentioned earlier...too many positive results from too many users to think otherwise. just mho Rich
ems...welcome aboard..you were posting yours while I was typing my last one. GLAD TO SEE i WAS WRONG ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY'D LET YOU ON... and might you be Alexander? Rich
The EMS is such a great improvement over what we had to work with. It has helped my brother and I get many '57 Fords solid again.
I have a some perfect rust free original fenders examples and other items that I would be willing to loan to EMS to help perfect some of the detail items, especially the front fender inner brace panel. I use my originals as examples to modify the stuff I have had to buy from the sheet metal vendors. I also have access to a few NOS panels and other perfect rust free panels that could be used as patterns for other parts considered in the future. They are for loaning only as I am saving those parts for my other '57s.
The inner fenderwell battery tray area repair that EMS is considering would be a real help, as good inner fenderwells are impossible to find.
The new taillamp panel was a great item that we really needed. I do have a NOS one saved, but I plan to use an EMS one instead.
I did have a problems with the front quarter patches with no lower lip to attach to the lower rocker, but i added a strip like IAMFLASHMAN did.
I like the coating that EMS put on the panels. It really helps prevent future rust.
Thank you EMS for your effort in making improvments in our parts that we really needed.
the fords and meteors are the same except for grill and trim changes.if your car has the 118 inch wheel base you need to use parts off the 118 w/b fords.the rear panels are different between the 116 and 118 inch cars.i test fitted a ems rear quarter [rear half] on my ranchero looks like a good fit.
I did have a problems with the front quarter patches with no lower lip to attach to the lower rocker, but i added a strip like IAMFLASHMAN did.
the issue is when we designed the tooling the public opinion at that time was "the spot weld flange did not matter" and guys would not spend more money for it ( it does cost tooling dollers and material dollers). we know better now, but since the tooling is made it would have to wait until the tooling needs to be redone if that ever happens. so we are left with a panel that is good, but missing a minor feature
the ems guy
EMS, thanks for the update and all the great parts. In regard to the full 1/4s I was just hoping, I know they have them for the Chevy's and they manage to ship them, but I guess there is less demand for ours. Thanks for addressing it.
Ron
Quote from: BAMA_57 on 2011-02-04 21:49
I hope this problem gets straitened out, I need to replace the right 1/4 for my 500 but not from rust (body damage). I wonder if EMS will ever produce a full 1/4 panel? Most of my damage is down low and I can make it work with the patches but I would LOVE a full piece. :005:
Ron
Guys and EMS,
The idea that the expense of manufactoring better parts would somehow diminish the ability to make a part profitable doesn't make sense. ( This is in reference to the one piece rear quarters and the front quarter lip ). I figure there's about three different types of people that restore cars to begin with.
The first guy researches the internet, finds out who will restore his car to perfection and sends his car to Jerry's Classic Cars to get a 60K restoration. Now we know Jerry's Classic cars will use your product because it's the best.
The second guy doesn't have as much money as the first so he wants a little more input into the decision making when it comes to the restoration of his car. He researches the internet finds out who makes the best parts and works with his chosen local bodyshop and orders the best parts. He'll come away with about a 30K restoration, happy with the outcome although it isn't a restoration by Jerry's Classic Cars.
The third guy has little money, limited ability but the desire to restore a car. He researches the internet looking for parts his little 110 welder won't blow holes thru everytime he touches them and parts that fit so he doesn't have to have the ability of the people at Jerry's Classic Cars to produce a good result. He looks at the price of panels and discovers theres one company with an impecable history but the price of the product is twice that of the other manufactors. He says to himself, why is one product so high and the others so low. ( This is exactly what I thought ) The answer is obvious, these people wouldn't still be in business if they didn't have twice the product. (And Lord knows I need all the help I can get). This is why the third guy with limited funds decides to use your higher priced panel. Not because of price but because what little money he has won't be wasted because of his limited talent. Jim
PS I figure most of the sales of panels are to the third guy listed above. In his research on the internet to find the best panel to fit his needs he'll find us. That's what you want.
That's a good observation Jim. I fall into this third group myself. I have to makeevery dollar count because of family obligations etc. Given an unlimited budget, yes, I would send the car to Jerry or Steve. Until I win the lottery though, I will have tobudget, restore good used parts, and do all of the work myself. This is a good thread.
Time to jump back in here. I am sure EMS has been waiting for the other shoe to fall.
Some of you may have seen that I do not have many posts on this site and may think I do not have much experience. This is my first 57 but I have been playing with cars since 1958 so I am not exactly a beginner.
First I want to clear one thing up. EMS keeps referring to my car as a Mercury Meteor. There was no such thing in 1957. Meteors were made by Ford of Canada from 1949 to 1961. The only difference in the panels between a Ford and Meteor was the holes for the trim, grille and trunk hardware.
There has not been much response to rear quarters for the 118 cars. Jim Nolan said his body man could not get his to fit properly. Several have said the ones for the 116 cars fit fairly well.
EMS says "the inner fender will not locate the 1/4, it is not designed to" and "a bad comparison to an unknown panel is unfair". I assume he refers to the inner quarter. I have yet to see a car where the rear quarter was not spot welded to the inner and the wheelwell all the way around. As to the comparison, in the member reviews I explained that I took the unknown panel and the EMS panel to a friends and tried them on two of his untouched cars. The unknown lined up well, the EMS did not.
There are a lot of remarks about how lucky we are to have EMS and how much better their stuff is. I have no other experience with 57 panels but going through other post there seems to be problems with rockers and by EMS own admission the front fenders and front quarters. Just weld a strip on the quarters and drill 1/4 inch hole in the rockers cause it would cost to much to make the dies to do that. Seems like they want to throw something out there and if it is not right let the customer fix it.
I was impressed when he said they had those pristine cars in a climate controlled building. I would have been more impressed if they had taken them apart so the had individual panels to copy when they wanted to reproduce another one. I do not think it is possible to make good copies of some of the panels without doing this. Example, the trunk panels. The back where it should attach to the tailpan does not fit. They made it straight and most of you will remember without even looking that the tailpan curves at the end. On top of that they have the flange bent upwards when it should go down. If they had the panels all apart I do not think they would have made that mistake. Is it fixable? Yes. Should the customer have to do that? I do not think so given that we are paying top dollar for them. I cut their flange off and made another so it now fits. I think we all expect to do some massaging but not to that extent.
I am not one to do the old cut off my nose to spite my face so I will continue to buy panels that work but I will not buy the problem ones. Hopefully if they get enough negative feedback they will try to become as good as they think they are. So that is my challenge to EMS, you say you have the best equipment and the best people so make panels we would be proud to put on our cars.
wow...where to start...first off..Rideau, I'm not sure what you're showing us with those 4 pics..are they ems's panels compared to someone else's? And which is which?
I'm trying to look at this whole issue as neutral as posible, drawing on my limited body panel experience, and my heavy background in machine shop manufacturing...even though it was 30 years ago and my retail experience.
I totally agree with Rideau on several things..the rear quarters not lining up on 3 different vehicles seems to substantiate what he is saying, and the flanges on the floor panels bent the oposite way seems strange. I had made a statement earlier in this post that I thought it was posible to have a bad panel because I suspected the panels were produced not in one shot, but multiple hits with multiple tooling. The ems rep sort of confimed this when he talked about secondary operations on a panel. How those secondary ops are performed may or may not lead to posible problems depending on how the parts are relocated in the tooling, or equiptment after the process has begun. are they foolproof locating dies/fixtures, or are they sight locating, depending on the skill of the operator to position them correctly?? Extensive tooling such as would be made for initial production runs for thousands upon thousands of parts would be more complicated and have foolproofing built in to make it imposible to mislocate a part. Short run production tooling would be the minimum necessary to produce acceptable parts. This is a simple expense factor..and we are not talking a few dollars, but major costs which don't just trickle down to the consumer, but muliply at each marketing stage. I don't know how many of each panels ems sells over an extended period of time, but think about it...how many '57 fords are going to be restored over say, the next ten years, How many of the new tailpans do they expect to sell? I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but if the tooling costs 30,000 to make, and they sell 200 panels, that's adding 150. in tooling costs alone for each panel at the manufacturing level..If the markup in auto supplies is the same as most retail businesses, that'll translate to 300. at retail level,and we're still just talking tooling costs. To be continued..
So, my first point is it seems rideau has a legitamite promblem, but so far, it also seems that it is one that is an isolated incident, and it would be interesting to compare his problem panel to another ems panel.
My second point is all the talk about "fixing" problems is not so easily done, especially in this economic climate and in most cases at much higher expense than we would figure. I think we should continue to let ems know about problems we are having, and at the same time appreciate the fact we have a company willing to invest in the expensive tooling and inventory necessary and wait the years it probably takes to recoup those expenses. just my humble opinion Rich
Rich, those are both EMS panel, left and right, for the trunk floor. The one I modified is narrowed because I did not need the full width.
Rich,
You placed an emphisis on the cost of retooling. That's understandable but I think it's over emphisized. ( EMS should jump in here ). Case in point: I worked on CNC machinery as an Elect. Tech for over 30 years. Some of these machines could cost 750K. When we couldn't get a part ( example, Hitachi Seiki going out of business) we would retrofit another motor, control or part that it needed to function properly and press on. We didn't go out and buy another 750K machine. EMS surely wouldn't have to start from scratch. Besides that ( correct me if I'm wrong ) Apple computers was one of the first home computer companys to come out. They didn't invest in software, and while they are still in business, I don't think they do as good as Microsoft. I wonder how they'd look at software investment if they had a chance to do it all over again. Cripes, I know we're talking about a small amount of sales but it might be more if you produce a more perfect product. Jim
ok it is time for me to comment, i do not comment right away as i do not think it is not our place to overwhelm a post.
1. the inner 1/4 is spot welded to the outer 1/4 but the inner rides on the backside and has only one flange touching the rear wheel tub. this is not enough to locate the inner and then locate the outer to the inner, a part that is a locating part should have at least 2 preferably 3 independent points to locate the part.
2. the flange on the trunk floor piece is up instead of down, that is the way ems designed it and it was done on purpose. and we do it often for alot of parts. just copying a part is not enough you must understand the procedure for instillation. and i mean the proceedure
"average joe" will use. average joe is our target customer. having the tab up makes for easier welding while fitting the part with the trunk lid open vs crawling under the car every moment. so often things are changed to accomadate issues what ever they are. and in the hobby there are various factions of owners all taking the hobby towards their views from high end resto like this group, to rat rodders, custom guys, resto rods, each group has different views and needs for there cars we have to accomidate all of them.
3> as far as the flange on the 1/4 as i said at the time it was design our customers did not want the flange, customer desires have changed, but we are stuck with the tooling that we will have for sometime.
4. lower fender sections, we try to make the best part possible at that time using the best part we can find, sometimes we can not find a nos or a+ part so we make the best model we can of it and go from there an then improve from there. this does not minimize our ability but reflects a fact of life in finding good parts.
5 i know the old panel you show, i am not worried about fit up of our panel, i would be concerned about the so called untouched cars, there are very few of them all cars of the late 50's were rust buckets so i would bet that they also have had there panels replaced.
i think the issue with rideau 500 is that you are confused and a easy absolute answer is not forthcoming further compounding the confusion. part of they hobby is to make the car the way you want it to look. so i am not sure if you are unhappy with the parts or unhappy with the situation and ems will continue to get beat up in many forums over many topics, but we are here as part of the hobby.
I would like to apoligise to everyone, I had not realized how confused I was until EMS pointed it out to me. Lets go point by point.
1 Not sure what you are saying here. The outer 1/4 joins the inner 1/4, wheel tub and tail pan. The inner 1/4 joins the outer 1/4, wheel tub, trunk floor and tail pan. They are all tied together and if one piece is screwed up it will all be out of whack.
2 I guess I got confused here because I have my body on a rotisserie. If I understand you correctly you are going to weld your flange to the bottom of the tail pan in a T. That would mean lying under the body and welding over your head. If the part was made as original you would be welding sideways which is easier and IMHO I do not think any of your groups would have any issues with doing it as original.
3 and 4 Two quotes. "we are stuck with the tooling that we have for sometime" and "an then improve from there". I am confused again, which one is it?
5 Now you are really starting to insult my intelligence. There really are untouched cars out there. I suppose there are some that are done so well you could not tell if a panel was replaced but if that was the case it would not matter.
6 The easy absolute answer is do not try to reinvent the wheel. Make the panels the way Ford made them and everyone will be happy.
Rideau 500,
No apoligy necessary on my part. We all make mistakes. I'm sitting here holding $2027.50 worth of EMS invoices and wondering why I paid a very good body man 22K just for labor and bought the very best replacement metal on the market and my fenderskirts don't fit. Maybe I just don't deserve fender skirts that fit. Maybe if I were a better person I'd have fender skirts that fit. Ya think? Jim
Jim, I have a set of fender skirts that don't fit my original car. I bought them from a guy who said they didn't fit his because he used the lower patch panels (not sure who's) so I figured they would fit my car since it was original. Turns out they didn't. They are reproduction skirts. So that may be your problem. Do you know if your skirts are original?
Ron
Quote from: JimNolan on 2011-02-13 16:37
Rideau 500,
No apoligy necessary on my part. We all make mistakes. I'm sitting here holding $2027.50 worth of EMS invoices and wondering why I paid a very good body man 22K just for labor and bought the very best replacement metal on the market and my fenderskirts don't fit. Maybe I just don't deserve fender skirts that fit. Maybe if I were a better person I'd have fender skirts that fit. Ya think? Jim
Jim,Jim,Jim...You didn't forget to sacrifice a virgin to the GODS OF RESTORATION did you? Or make a donation to the
Amarillo '57 Ford Restoration Fund. Either could explain your situation. Rich
Ron,
I have one set that has the lever for clamping up with slots on each lip side and I have a set I just bought off an older restoration that has a bolt that you tighten at the bottom for clamping of the skirt with metal tabs on each end that you bolt from the bottom.
It would be my luck to have bad skirts like you're talking about and end up looking like an ass on here complaining about EMS. But, since both skirts are identical in fit I just assumed it was the fender opening that was wrong.
In any case, I'm through crying in my beer. EMS still puts out the best panels my body man thinks you can buy. That'll have to be good enough for me. Tomorrow I'm going to start laying up metal to fill in the gap on my fender skirts ( won't take much), have my body man weld in new metal, repaint and keep going. I'm too afraid to go down the highway the way they are now. Jim
Rich,
Here all this time I thought if you threw enough money at something you'd get what you paid for. I didn't sacrifice a virgin but I sacrificed my kids inheritence. I'm restoring a 63 Galaxie right now that's going to put the fit and finish to shame on the 57. (No rust, period ) the kind of car you hear about but never have seen. The sad news is I have no emotional ties to the 63, I wish I'd never have started it now. Jim
Jim a 63 1/2 was my first car after I got back from Nam in 65, I have many emotional ties to the 63 so send it my way.... :003:
i would like to make a point, i am not trying to pick on or insult rideau 500. we do not take this conversation as a attack on us personally,but we are trying to provide challenging conversation.
1 Not sure what you are saying here. The outer 1/4 joins the inner 1/4, wheel tub and tail pan. The inner 1/4 joins the outer 1/4, wheel tub, trunk floor and tail pan. They are all tied together and if one piece is screwed up it will all be out of whack.
ems) the inner 1/4 does nothing to insure the location of the outer, other than a flimsy tab to the inner tub the only hard point would be the tailpan which is not enough to locate the inner 1/4 so th eouter could be located. the outer 1/4 should be located first 1) it is a outer panels that can be seen and its location will be guided by the tailpan and the wheel tub and wheel opening( i am speaking of only replacing the rear 1/4 for discussion) the inner will follow the outer 1/4 the inner has the ability to adjust some for movement of the outer 1/4.
2 I guess I got confused here because I have my body on a rotisserie. If I understand you correctly you are going to weld your flange to the bottom of the tail pan in a T. That would mean lying under the body and welding over your head. If the part was made as original you would be welding sideways which is easier and IMHO I do not think any of your groups would have any issues with doing it as original.
ems: i am confused now also
3 and 4 Two quotes. "we are stuck with the tooling that we have for sometime" and "an then improve from there". I am confused again, which one is it?
remember at the start of of our 57 ford program the customer base we had indicated the downward spot weld flange was not required. 1. since were using 110volt mig welders and not spot welding it was a mute technical issue. the downward flange is more of a oem looks issue than a fit. example custom guys who bag and slam there cars cut off these downward flanged so they can get there cars lower. so some times we just can not win when 50% of the customers want one thing and the other 50% want the other way. just my fault!
another good example is the 3/4" offset flange we put on most panels so it can slip under the mating panels. 50% want this 50% do not. easier for me to put on then for you to but if you have to cut it off yes it is a pain, but if you need it, well?
there is always a budget to be considered when producing a part and ability to get good parts to copy from and other production issues including customer acceptance. when we can improve part we will. when we should improve the part it gets improved or withdrawn from the sales dept.
6 The easy absolute answer is do not try to reinvent the wheel. Make the panels the way Ford made them and everyone will be happy.
ems: someone will complain about something they always do
EMS..."make the panels the way ford made them"...just as a point of curiosity I was wondering if ford ever actually produced repair panels, or if they have always been secondary market? For instance, we know the cars were produced with one piece rear fenders(except for the inner tailfin area)...did ford ever make front or rear 1/2 panels for repairs? or did they ever make front fender caps and the like? If they did, is any of that tooling ever still usable or available for licensed secondary market manufactures to purchase? I guess I am asking if tecnically speaking there is such a thing as oem repair panels. just curious.
Also it would be great to see some pics of '57 tooling and/or pics of actual '57 parts being made. Rich
ford did offer rust repair panels via its dealers, they were slip over design you can still find these at swap meets with a ford p/n kind rare, vs a regular crash repair which was the normal nos version.
although the ford slip overs seem to be a better quality then other slip overs i do think they were made by a supplier
Quote from: BAMA_57 on 2011-02-13 18:06
Jim, I have a set of fender skirts that don't fit my original car. I bought them from a guy who said they didn't fit his because he used the lower patch panels (not sure who's) so I figured they would fit my car since it was original. Turns out they didn't. They are reproduction skirts. So that may be your problem. Do you know if your skirts are original?
Ron
thank you for your comment
EMS,
Just talked to my body man, he said not to mention his name if I was going to criticize you. He doesn't want you mad at him. He claims that after all the Jap Junk he's had to work with he'll be happy to keep using you.
It's good that you take criticizem personally I guess. Shows that you care about what people think about you. Can you imagine a little Chinese guy reading unfavorable comments on a product he made. I bet he'd laugh his ass off. Americans so funny.
I hope you can use this website and the charactors on it to improve you product when you can and help us have a better understanding of the production methods and practices. You've answered a lot of questions I've had and feel you're a definate asset to have on this forum. Jim
(PS) As for my criticism about the wheel opening and my fender skirts, did you notice I haven't said anything about the headlight buckets, front fender upper caps, lower front fender pieces, rear quarter inner braces, every row of floor braces you make, inner and outer rocker panels, four front floor pans, inner rear fender panels, trunk panels and about every rubber product and gasket you sale. I noticed that the $2027.00 worth of invoices I mentioned earlier didn't cover most of what I ordered from you. The best I remember there was over 4K worth of products I bought from you and was absolutely tickeled to death with. I figure I've got a nice looking 57 and some of the credit goes to you. All criticism is good if the intent you give it is good. That's the part you should remember when I make a post. Jim
I was looking in the '57 shop manual last evening, for other information, but wandered into the body repair section. They talked about repair panels and replacement panels available at the parts counter. They described the process of installing a patch panel, and they told how to cut out the damaged section and fitting the patch panel and flush welding it in. I could not be a slip over panel and fit correctly if flush welded. Interestingly, they talked about replacement fenders on the T-Birds, and stated that if the damage was not total, you would be better off to get a new fender and cut it as required to make a patch instead of replacing the whole fender. John