We recently bought a wagon with a seized up engine and last weekend I pulled the engine and disassembled it to find out how bad of shape it's in. Found it snapped off the head of an exhaust valve and shattered a piston, bent a rod and tore out the cylinder wall, so trashed. Plan was for a 351 W T5 swap from the beginning so not too broke up about this. Question is what to keep out of this before I scrap any of it. If I am in the wrong forum please let me know.
If there 57 "G" heads and not damaged they may be saving for someone. Exhaust manifolds, 4-bbl intake,..............
It's the old Y-block grenade problem ... seen that before. I sold a pair of 57 "G" heads last year for $250. If it's a 57 motor, keep the rocker arms also. A Holley pattern Y-Block intake is probably worth $150. Exhaust manifolds may be worth something also. The rest is junk.
Given the block is too heavy to be a good boat anchor.....I did see a good use for the block the other day. Guy pushed the pistons to the bottom of the bore filled the cylinders and the vally with dirt and used them as planters on each side of the garage door. :001:
Thanks for the information. I will take a closer look at the heads to see if they are salvageable. Has a 2 barrel with Holly carb. Exhaust manifolds look OK. Valve covers and air cleaner look like wall art. Pistons won't move to the bottom of the block so looks like planter idea may be out. What about 3 speed o.d. trans, bellhousing stuff ? Question for when I get to putting the car back together. The rear U joint and yoke looks small to me. Will it live with a 351 or is there a larger yoke that will fit on the stock 9 inch rear end that will take a heavier U joint?
The valuable Y-Block intakes are 4V intakes with the Holley bolt pattern. The bellhousing, flywheel and the rest of the stick parts are getting hard to find. If you have a Borg Warner T-85 heavy duty 3 speed OD (probably not), it's good for about $500 if it works. I wouldn't throw away a regular 3 speed transmission either, but they're not worth a lot unless you need one. The OD relays, harness Etc. have value to the right person. All 1957 Ford rear ends are 9" units. It will live for a long time behind your 351 unless you are building a monster or are planning to drag race. The yokes are smaller on the earlier cars. You can change the yoke to the larger size if you want, but you'll need to re-setup the differential unless you like humming sounds... The small yokes came on HiPo Mustangs and they were pretty stout.
Transmission is still hanging in the car as it seemed easier to take it out after the engine was out so will have to clean it up to see what it actually is. thanks for the input on the driveshaft yokes. No drag racing as the car is to tow a vintage 16' RV trailer occasionally. I had a big block Dodge that I had to put some large HD parts in to keep alive and lost a front U joint on cool evening at speed. Very exciting and not to be experienced again so I tend to get a little safety conscience at times.
If you have a T-85 it will be clearly marked Borg Warner T-85 on the tail housing. It will be a case iron unit with the cover on the side. It looks like a T-10 four speed (which they made out of the T-85). My guess is that you have a standard Ford O/D transmission. It's probably worth about $250-$300 to the right person if in good condition. Have fun...
I will take a closer look and you have me thinking now as I ran a T10 in a GM car a long time ago and it was one tough trans. How is this trans with OD behind a later model small block (302-351) as far as drive ability and towing or am I a lot better off with a floor shift T5. Our plans are to upgrade the car mostly for ease of drive ability with better steering brakes and shocks.
The T-5 is a much better transmission. It's a modern overdrive with a good low gear to get the car moving and a extra gear for high speed cruising. Also, your gas mileage will be much better with the T-5. The T-85 only has value to someone who wants the originality of a three speed. They were very tough and durable in their day, but nothing compared to a modern 5 speed. I have a T-10 in my Custom, but that's just for nostalgia reasons. The T-5 is the way to go behind a small block.
Update on the trans, after about 5 pounds of dirt I found the numbers cast in it. Shows T85 and is a top loader that weighs a ton. I didn't pull the top off and ck anything yet as the day was taken up on other stuff. Neighbor kid has a Borg Warner 5 speed out of a turbo 4 cly T Bird with bellhousing and clutch. I didn't get any numbers or I.D. markings yet. I am curious if the trans itself is the same as 8 cly cars. I read a post on here about front fender splash panels so took a light up into the fenders. There was so much dirt up there I filled a couple of big flower pots but no holes. I can't believe the car ever saw salt. Not perfect but a lot better than I expected. So far I am still pretty happy with what I bought as I sure have been bit harder before.
The Borg Warner T-85 Heavy duty overdrive overdrive transmission was a side loader. I believe what you have there is a Ford standard overdrive transmission. It will never hold up behind any kind of horsepower. We used to break them all the time behind stock Y-Blocks. In the sixties, we used to buy them for $20 a piece. Went through about a dozen until I found a T-85. Never-the-less, all the early overdrive trannys are getting rare and have some value. The T-5 is the way to go behind a modern small block. Have fun!
Ford Crazy You are correct as I wire wheeled the casting numbers it is a T 86 number. As heavy as this thing is I thought it might be a heavy duty piece. Thanks for the info. Still waiting on neighbors kid to see what he wants to do with the 5 speed in Dads garage. Will a pickup truck 351-5 speed 2 wheel drive parts vehicle net enough on the transmission side to be worth pursuing?
After reviewing the condition of what we have for a driveline and listening to what you have been kind enough to share as far as an upgrade we put out some feelers and a friend has a son with a rolled 96 Mustang and a loss of drivers licence. The car is a 5.0L 5 speed. I haven't seen it yet but am trying to find out what to look for, how much can I use. Since its rolled I can't believe the basic structure or sheet metal are a concern. Any ideas/input much appreciated.
Jon...if you scroll thru the older engine swap section you'll find a lot of info and opinions on the 5.0 swap. You might also check the threads re: 4.6dohc and 4.6 vs. 5.0 swaps. Rich
Quote from: hogwagon on 2011-03-05 22:39
After reviewing the condition of what we have for a driveline and listening to what you have been kind enough to share as far as an upgrade we put out some feelers and a friend has a son with a rolled 96 Mustang and a loss of drivers licence. The car is a 5.0L 5 speed. I haven't seen it yet but am trying to find out what to look for, how much can I use. Since its rolled I can't believe the basic structure or sheet metal are a concern. Any ideas/input much appreciated.
if it is a 96 gt it will have a 4.6 2 cam.the 99 and up 2 cams make more high rpm hp.the 2 cam does fit better in a 57[i test fitted a 2 cam at the same time i fit my 4 cam]get the hydra boost,if you want power brakes
C-R the high rpm horse power number isn't as important as towing rpm torque numbers. I just ran thru the 11 pages of 4.6 convertions that you guys did here last summer. Is your car running now? This is just short of making me nervous about an overhead cam engine convertion put we need almost everything so it's work and fab everthing either way. I have a vertical mill and lathe so not a lot really scares me unless it is going to be 100's of hours for too little return. We owned a 97 MK VIII that had computer issues and currently drive a 2003 Mercury Marauder weather permitting so I am fairly familiar with the engines. We haven't seen the possible donor Mustang yet but am led to believe the car is a 5 speed manual. would that help as far as computer control ed wiring is concerned? The hydro boost brake system sounds cool as long as I don't have to have anti lock brakes.
Sounds like the donor Mustang in question may be a 1994. When did Ford change the car to 4.6 L engines? According to the chart in the new section we have under Borg Warner Trans ID it may be a T 5 which would work into our plans pretty good and I have been led to believe that if I get 5.0 or 302 in old man speak to work in the car that a 351 would bolt in as a replacement using the same accessory drives, mounts and such. Am I missing a big piece thinking this? I see that a 351 has a taller deck height and wider intake and I went thru this with a Dodge engine once with a 383 to 440. It was NOT a easy change as I was to believe.
The 351 should be a bolt in. Everything is exactly (nearly so) the same. The extra inch of dech height does not present a problem. Several of the guys here have 351Ws in their cars. I will be installing a 351C/AOD in mine and it measures up to be a very nice fit. 96 was the first year for the mod motor in the GT Mustangs. They (2 cams) are the same width as the 4 cam motors. Not sure what year the bell housing bolt pattern changed though.
the 4 cam is about 2inch wider than the 2 cam.the oil pans are different 302/351[rear main bigger]the accessory drive is a little different because of the higher heads,the 81 and newer 302 have a different balance[flywheel]than the 351.mounts are the same,bell housing the same 302/351. just some info that may help
I do stand corrected on the overall width of the 4 cam. At the motor mount area they are the same. The after market accessories/drives are the same for the 66 and later are the same (year dependent) 289, 302, and 351W and C. You need to check the spacing between the face of the balancer, 3 or 4 bolt and the face of the water pump flange, (3 1/4" or 3 3/4"), that changed around 68 - 69 and when they went to serpentine things got different again. We are currently assembling an 85 351 W using late model 302 (early 90s Mustang GT) brackets for the serpentine drive system, all is bolted up and fits fine, the belt that came off the 302 is too short so we will need to find one the correct size. Over all the fit of things is good, just need to watch the year.
Really great info and is helping a lot to keep from just buying stuff just to try. My garage space, time, and money really doesn't work well with a lot of stuff anymore. I am reading out of this that if I stay with the 302-351W series of engines after serpentine belt accessories with a front sump pan and Mustang bellhousing transmission it's normal fab work with options that are supported by the aftermarket or Ford sourced parts.
This is right where I was hoping all of this would lead. The wagon was the wife's idea and 57 Ford was mine. If it was a single purpose vehicle built strictly on my tastes it would be a post car with a big block. After this build that may happen.
I'm curious if you are leaning toward efi, or a carb? Mark
At this point it depends a lot on the donor car. If EFI and complete I would love to do a complete transplant. We have 2 late model vehicles and one old car that is carb but it doen't see much use. The challenge has a lot of appeal and of course the attention factor at cruise night sounds fun. This car will see a lot of use from the wife so dependable easy to live with are big. Steering and brakes are before power on this one. Power brakes= vacume. The car dictates again. In the 4.6 convert forum this point was well taken. Fuel milage is on everyones mind so EFI with factory Mustang pieces makes sense. Easy to say before the event but with some help from you guys it is in reach for anyone here.
I put an 87 Continental 302 (speed density EFI) with a 5 speed in a 66 Falcon Ranchero and that thing was/is the perfect set up. The speed density is simple, works well with manual or the AOD, gave an honest 30 MPG @ 70 MPH on the road and very high teens/low 20s in town (depending on the right foot) and never failed to start and run smooth. Didn't have a "thumper" sound but made plenty of power and was fun to drive. I would do it again in a heart beat! Will as a matter of fact, have a 60 Galaxie 2Dr wagon that will get a 2001 Explorer 302/auto complete with the EFI and all the trimings. Will run the HiPo 289 exhaust manifolds, no cats and get the computer programmed to ignor the after cat o2 sensors and such. Go for it, you can not beat the drivability of the EFI controlled engines!
Bill this sounds like the setup we are striving for. I'm sure I will have to bug you with a ton of questions on his one. In hurry up and wait as one vehicle is in the selling mode to fund the next and we are hoping to get to see the possible donor car this weekend. I may have to find storage for one car here to have space to dissect a donor car. I do not leave stuff outside as we are in the city plus I learned to hate the look if you don't have a secluded yard to do work in. As in probably most peoples case I am the most apprehensive about the wiring and computer work.
Decent weather so the garage can be open and a rare day off allowed me to investigate the transmission and shine some light on why the engine blew up. A syncro blocker ring is broken for high gear and it will not go into 3rd so I think some one drove the car home in second and with a 3:55 rear end it was wound pretty tight. The engine dropped a exhaust valve head and trashed the block. I can fix the trans if someone needs it as all the gears look good, but may not be worth it for our needs. The donor car we were looking at has a reluctant seller so a 351 truck 2 wheel drive may be the next candidate. Suspension is next anyway since I finally have most off the dirt off of the front end. I got a free field of dirt from Nebraska in the deal.
The wiring is not so hard. The nice part of the speed density system is most all the engine management wiring is bundled seperate from the rest of the car. Aways get the wiring diagrams from Helm Inc. for the donor car. Figuring which terminals are needed is a matter of looking at the sensor or device. Those that tell the computer something have a source voltage (5.5V) on one lead and the other lead goes to the computer. Things the computer tells the engine to do have a lead from the computer and a ground on the other end. There are a few exceptions to this rule but they become self appearent. There are very good tutorials on line, just google EFI and you can spend a week reading and learning various systems. Many basic learning tools as well. I say all of this as an electronics technician so what is clear to me may be a bowl of soup to others. If all else fails go to an after market supplier.
Ford Blue Blood That info is pure gold as to the theory of 5.5 volts to computer input and to ground if from computer then control at engine if I am reading this right. Many years ago I received a Associate in E.E.T. that was used to be able to communicate with computer engineers and the new Harley's are EFI so do have to deal with some of this in our business. I know many people are phobic about all of this but with a little self education it doesn't have to be that way. If you understand the basics of carbs and ignition it translates with a little help from someone like yourself.
I have a ton of electrical questions but this may not be the right place. Do we have a forum for this subject and conversion yet?