Check out this clipping from todays newspaper(Gulfport's Sun Herald). . .It's Jim hisself. Very nice `57 Fairlane Jim, and again, it was great to meet you. Hope you enjoyed this years Crusin' the Coast. See you next year...James P
Thanks James P,
Yes, I had a great time. I never saw so many cars in all my life and 75% of them were 57 chevys. Well, it seemed like it. But, I found out quickly that people were interested in seeing a 57 Ford for a change. People were great down there. Made you feel at home. Seven days isn't enough to see everything. Like I said before, met James and his family, he was waiting on me at one of the cruise-ins. Glad he didn't meet me at the dragstrip, I'd have been embarassed after the show I put on. I'm going again, in fact I'm going to try and move down there next year.
Now for the real question. Has anyone installed a TKO Tremec in a 57 ford. Has anyone HEARD of someone doing it. There's a place in Columbus, In that deals with installation of Tremec's and I'm waiting word from them but I need someone who hasn't got anything to gain to enlighten me on the installation.
The news reporter that took my picture ended up talking to me for about a half hour. Like I said, people were really friendly.
Jim
Kind of depends on what engine, and bellhousing you want to use. I hear of guys using a mummerts adapter for alot of applications, Mark
Mark,
After figuring out the RPM of the Toploader(close and wide ratios) and the RPM that the TREMEC 500 and 600 would give me, Ive decided to keep the T-85 overdrive and get it fixed. I contacted Moses Ludel in Nevada about the transmission and he's going to blueprint it for me. He also claims to know the problem I'm having and how to alliviate it for good. Apparently it's going to cost me about the same to get this T-85 fixed as what a TREMEC would cost. I'm probley doing the wrong thing but the thought of changing rear ends or building crossmembers or raising transmission tunnels is scaring me. I've got a car that can be scary loose on takeoff and get's 21 mpg on the highway. Moses claims that when I rebuilt the transmission I didn't do the finesse things that make it reliable. He claims to know which parts of the transmission need altering to make it dependable for what I'm doing with it. With a name like Moses, how could you doubt him. His estimate not including parts was 1600-1800 with the cap being 2300. I've got to be really happy with my T-85 or crazy as hell to pay out that kind of money repairing a 50 year old transmission.
Jim
Jim:
I don't want to discredit Moses, but I'm afraid you will never be able to shift the T85 fast. Years ago Hurst had a feature article in Hot Rod discussing the T85. When shifting out of 1st, that heavy, spinning low gear slider is being moved to the rear of the car. Acceleration also helps move it rearward. This sounds good so far. The problem is that the gear MUST stop moving rearward precisely in the neutral position or the interlock will not let the trans go into second. The interlock consists of a spring loaded ball dropping into a notch in the rocker arm. So, Hurst's answer to the problem was their "Synchro Lock" floor shift. I saw a display at the Indy Nationals with a trans on a stand, indicator lights to show what gear it was in, and of course the Hurst shifter. They allowed you to shift it from first to second with a baseball bat. Worked every time. But, the transmission wasn't spinning nor accelerating. I put a Syncro Lock in my '56 Bird, and it helped, but it still wouldn't "speed shift". If you're still running the column shift, a good floor shifter will help, but won't overcome the problem completely. I preached all this to Pegleg, so he switched to a top loader which has a syncronized 1st gear. Only the syncronizer ring needs to move, so less inertia is involved. However, he wants to run in pure stock, so a floor shifter isn't allowed. He still has some issues with his flimsy column shift linkage. But it is better than the T85 for shifting.
John
John,
I've spoke to you before on this. I also mentioned your information to Moses when I talked to him. He said you were right. But he also said that if I didn't power shift it, it would work just fine for me. Here's my delima, if I go with a Tremec I'll have to change drive shafts, crossmember and possibly the transmission tunnel. Also with a Tremec I'd have to go to a higher differential gear to be able to get more than 18 ft distance in 1st gear when cruising. It would be like driving a dump truck in the lower gears. So with a Tremec I'd change rear end gears, crossmember, drive shaft and transmission tunnel.(at least a new hole for the Tremec shifter).
Now for the Toploader, with my 3.7 rear gear I'd be doing 3310 rpm at 70 mph. If I change rear gears to say 3.10, I'd still be doing 2773 rpm at 70 mph and I'd give up any chance of having a decent 1/4 mile car. So, if I use a toploader I've dedicated my car to the 1/4 mile or I dedicate it to a highway car that shifts fast.
If I add a GearVenders overdrive to it I can get what I want by spending 3K on thier setup plus the 18 hundred for a new toploader and then changing driveshafts as well.
I've looked at every possible way out of keeping this T-85 but there is nothing ( at least finacially) that can touch the T-85 for highway and occasional drag strip use. At 70 mph I'm turning 2250 rpm and getting 20 mpg while doing it. If you've got an answer thats fesible PLEASE let me know. I've not sent anything out yet and I can still change my mind.
I looked Moses Ludel up on the internet and couldn't believe his creditials. He's the next thing to a rocket scientest when it comes to working on transmissions. He's wrote God knows how many books and a consultant to the major car makers when it comes to off road vehicles and performance drive systems.
You on the other hand have spent the years in the ditches and know what is actually going on. You've been there, done that and have a world of experience to draw from. If you've got an anwer on how to go to achieve what I'm trying to do, let me know. I'll be more than happy to do it.
I'm letting this go to the forum instead of contacting you personally so someone else my benifit from the exchange.
Jim
Jim:
While reading your latest post, I suddenly remembered that Gary Burnette adapted an R11 OD off a T85 to a toploader non OD 4 speed. Is that what Gearvendors do? Anyway, Gary now runs a T6 in his Bird, if he still has the 4 speed it may be available. I'm sure mount and driveshaft rework would be necessary to install it, but no tunnel work.
I agree that the T85 with OD makes an excellent strip/street combo, but 1-2 speedshifts are not part of the program. Have you looked at yours to see why it didn't want to come out of 3rd? I once had that problem, and the syncronizer ring overtraveled far enough to let the three struts pop out on one end. Had to take the side cover off and push the struts back down to get the ring back in place so I could drive home. I put an external stop on the outside of the shift cover to keep that from happening again.
John
John,
I told Moses about the problem with it not coming out of third until I pushed in the overdrive lockout handle. Don't remember him addressing it though. He told me the T-85 Syncronizers would be coming out and he would replace them with T10 modified syncronizers.
I think the struts you're talking about are the pawls that are spring loaded under the syncronizer slider ( the best I can remember ) He said he thought one of them might have broke on me. Thats why he wouldn't replace them with T85 parts.
You ain't going to believe this but he takes pictures of the transmission during disassembly and assembly. When he's through he sends a CD for you to watch your transmission being blueprinted.
If you got Gary Burnettes phone number I'd like to call and talk to him. I'm still downloading information on gear ratios, starting line ratios, travel distance in 1st gear, rpms at highway speeds. When I get through with this project I'll be so full of information I may explode.
What experience have you had with a toploader impersonator.
Jim
Jim:
Do you look at the Y Blocks Forever website? Gary is on there, Speedpro56. You can send him a PM there. If not, let me know, I think I have his number on a profile page in Y Block Magazine.
John
John,
Forget it. I'm worn down. I've decided to go with a Wide ratio Toploader and change my rear gears to accomidate the 1-1 final ratio. I've invested a lot of money into this T-85 Transmission all ready. I've got about 1K in the new gears I put in a year ago. Now I'm wanting to throw another 1.8K at it and I'd be hoping for the best. I don't want to hack up my car for a fancy 5 speed either. The cars too nice for that.
David Knee offers Toploaders for 2K that would probley outlast the time I've got left anyway. And, they are apparently rebuilt well.
NOW. What rear gear should I have for this 4000 lb money eater I have. I'll be cruising more than I will be drag racing so keep that in mind. I've got an SLR ( starting line ratio ) of 9.2 now. 9-11 being the best. I already have too much car for the size tires I can put under the car so a lower SLR should help. At 70 mph a 2.73 rear gear would give me 2450 rpm in 4th gear. A 3.00 gear would give me 2684 rpm. The 2.73 gear would have an SLR of 7.5 and a 3.00 gear would give me a SLR of 8.3. Any rear gear lower than that and I might as well buy a trailor to haul it where I go.
Can I look respectable on the track with rear gears that high. The wide ratio transmission has the 2.78 1st gear.
Thanks for letting me use you as a punching bag. I appreciate your help and advice. Jim
Jim, Been reading your post on your tranny situation,just picked up a copy of SUPER ROD magazine (BUCKAROO PUBLISHING),on pages 64-67 There's an article on a Kool and beautiful 1957 Ford Courier Built by Doug Klann-Owner/builder,Slim's Body Works and Hot Rod Shop-Freeland,Michigan,(989-695-2313). He's running a 350 Horsepowered Y-block with a Tremec T-5 5-speed with a Hayes clutch and Weber aluminum flywheel, 4.10 gears with posi. and 20"x 10" rear rims (whoa baby) so with that size rim it deffinately plays into the final ratio (tires,rear gear,trans ratio) . So give him a call and ask about the install and how he likes the results or anything he would change now or give you a heads up on tranny install !SKIP.
Skip,
Found out more about the Toploader from David Kee. He now builds a 2.9 first gear. That'll give me a tad less launch and about the same cruise rpm I've got now. I could certainly use a tad less launch. Richmond gear builds a Super T-10 with a 3.25 first gear but the advertisement says it's only for GM engines. The further I get into investigating my options the more I'm finding other people want the same thing I'm trying to accomplish. With gas prices the way they are now, we've got to have descent gas mileage for our ground pounders. Thanks for the information on Doug Klann. If I can't get what I'm looking for with the Toploader or T-10 I'll be needing to talk to people like him. Thank, Jim
Skip,
Update. Called Doug Klann. He said the back of the transmission tunnel was raised and a new crossmember had to be installed. Good try though. Appreciate any help. Thanks, Jim
Jim, I had a Tremec TKO in my `57. The main reason I took it out is because I had also put in the late model Mustang cable clutch, and there wasnt enough room to get good adjustment out of it(cowl tank in the way). If I had used a hydraulic clutch or even the mechanical bellcrank it would have been better. You can pick up a decent Tremec for about 1200-1500 or so, use the adapter from Mustangs Unlimited, bolt it right up to the Ford bellhousing and go to town. I did not have to chop the floor up at all. I could have used the stock crossmember, but my headers ran directly into it, so I made a trick double hump crossmember for the big dual exhaust (3 inch pipes). It's really the best swap for the car if you drive it. If it were my car, I would put a 3.70 gear in it, with the Tremec. Most of the Tremecs have a 3.35 or 2.95 first gear, so you could get away with a 3.25 gear. The OD is .63, so you could run a 4.11 and still work out to a 2.59 final drive in 5th gear. The only cutting I did on the floor was for the floor shifter to come through, didnt have to raise it or anything else. If you do move down here Jim, get in touch with me, and I will help you all I can with it. I put mine in with the engine, so it was a snap, no problem at all, did not touch anywhere, so no vibrations or that sort of thing. Think about it before you make your mind up, the 5 speed is really the best way to go. By the way, the Tremec is based on the old T&C toploader, so it is plenty stout, and is a whole lot lighter weight than the old cast iron case toploaders. I've had both, so I can vouch for them.
James,
I've just about made up my mind to go with a Toploader. I need to talk to David Kee first though. He has gears that he puts in these Toploaders that make them a lot better for cruising and draging. I'm still open to anything that would work. I'll keep your advice in mind.
As to Ms, yep, going to do it. Got my plane up for sale now. Sell what I got up here and go drag racing in Ms. My son in Columbia is looking for a car now to fix up with me.
Jim
James,
Lets make sure I understand your post.
1. Which engine and bell housing were you using. I've got the FE engine. I'd like to keep my same bell housing.
2. Did you say that the crossmember would have been OK with the Tremec if stock exhaust had been used.
3. I can't understand about the clutch linkage. Is there a reason I can't use stock clutch setup I've already got.
Jim
James,
Done it. It's over. Figured out what I wanted to put in my 57. I called Wedan Street and Performance in Columbus, In. and talked to a Brad Wedan. He explained everything to me about the swap I was going to do. This is a list of the things I'll keep.
1. Stock FE bellhousing
2. Stock Z bar, clutch fork and Rod.
3. Transmission crossmember
This is a list of the things I'll be changing.
1. Tremec TKO 600 Transmission .64 OD with FE Ford input shaft (extra)
2. 1350 output yoke for drive shaft.
3. Universal ureathane transmission mount.
4. 11 inch Performance clutch and pressure Plate
5. Special Throwout bearing for stock fork
6. Comes with center shift 16.75" position or 19.5" position( you just reverse the top plate to get one or the other.)
7 If I want the 2" offset shifter that would be 500 and some dollars extra. I'll buy a new front carpet for less.
The thing that helped sway me was the fact I can still run my 3.70 posi-trac. NOW, if I could find traction.
He said he'd probly have it shipped tomarrow. Here I go again. Barely got the brake swap done. I'm glutten for punishment.
O Yes, for those inquiring minds like me. $3445 counting tax. I live here so I have to pay tax.
Thanks for your advice. Jim
Jim:
I've followed your transmission discussion with great interest and it seems to me that your decision is a very wise one. The Tremec is a very strong unit and with the .64 OD you will still enjoy the ability to cruise at low RPM.
As to your traction concern, I'm off to the California Speedway Fun Ford Weekend later this week and I'll be giving my new set-up a good test. Last year all I had was the 3.70 gears and a posi. The tires were street BF Goodrich TA Radials and my times sucked (98 mph and a 14.85 et). My 351 Windor doesn't put out the torque or probably the horse power of your FE, but the other components of my drive train are pretty similar to yours, so some comparisons can be made. For this year I have added a set of good traction bars (CalTraks) and a pair of M/T E.T. Street Radials (P235/60R15's). These are almost the largest street legal drag tires that can fit into my stock rear wheel well. They are mounted on Weld Pro-Star 15" x 8" rims with a 5 1/2" back space. I'll let you know if this set-up works.
Bob
57AGIN
Bob,
Thanks for the info, let me know how you do. At Gulfport when I ran that pontiac fierro with the V8 engine I had 205R15 tires. I launched real slow and let it dig in. Thats when I missed 2nd gear and tried four times before I could get it in 2nd. The Fierro had passed me but when I got it in 2nd I started catching him again. He went through in 15.5 sec and I went through in 16 sec, so I determined from that I could possibly get under 15 sec with my car if I knew how to drive it and could shift gears.
I'm interested in how well you do this time. If need be, I can drop my shocks for the weekend to be able to install bigger tires. I'm retired so I don't need to drive it to work on Monday morning. Good Luck at the Fun Ford Weekend.
Answer me a question before you take off. Do you have any other trouble besides dropping the shocks to be able to use the 15 X 8 X 5 1/2 backspace wheels.
Jim
Jim:
Not really, but I also had to drop the rear shackles (supporting the axle with a floor jack) and then lower the jack until the tire clears the outer fender well and the brake drum. The BF Goodrich T/A Radials are about 10.5" at their widest and don't clear. Once I let the air out of the tires and got them out without dropping the rear shackles, too. I don't have any clearance issues when the tires are up and mounted in the wheel well (about an inch of clearance on both the spring side and outer fender well). The drag tires I purchased are slightly narrower than the BB Goodriches and one inch less in diameter. I anticipate hitting the traps at about 100 mph. Last year I came off the line at 3500 RPM, but given the e.t. I must have been spinning quite a while. This year I should be launching instead. At least that's the theory.
By the way, I have a friend with a Fairlane 500 Club Victoria and he has tire clearance problems with both BF Goodrich 255x60R15's and 235x60R15's with a similar back space on the rims. I'm pretty sure the Custom's and probably Ranchero's don't have the same problem. Weird isn't it, and he only has problems on the right side.
Bob
57AGIN
Bob,
That's me to a tee. My right side is closer. I've measured everthing on the rear end and it's perfectly aligned. It's like they decided to make the body panels closer in on the right side. Glad you mentioned that. I thought I was going nuts or my car had had the whole side dented in about 3/4 inch. I'll go with the biggest tires I can get under it. I going to look into the cost of shortening the axles and housings to get rid of that problem. Tubbing is completely out of the question.
The SLR (starting line ratio) I have now is 9.2 and the tires I have on it now go up in smoke. The new transmission will give me a SLR of 10.6, so you can guess what's going to happen if I don't learn how to leave the line correctly for my setup. Jim
Jim:
Based on my limited experience from when I was 21-23 racing my 65 Mustang I'd say the higher your starting line ratio the better your launch will be. This is why the real hot shot racers use 4.57 - 5.38 rear end gears. I believe the limiting factor is what your final drive ratio ends up at the finish line (i.e. what RPM will you be at the end of the quarter). I'm not sure what my T-10's 1st gear ratio is, but with 3.70's in the rear I know I'll only be at about 5000 RPM at the finish line
My 65 Mustang had a wide ratio T-10 (2.78 1st gear), the rear gears were 4.57's. This gave me a starting line ratio of 12.7. I also had a set of lift bars, which allowed the tires to bite real well, but the tires used back in the day were very limiting (Casler cheater slicks and only about 6.5" wide). With this combination I would rev the engine at the starting line to 3500 - 4000 RPM, rapidly release the clutch (not quite popping the clutch). The car would literally leap off the starting line, generally giving me about a 2 - 3 car length head start (if we both left at the same time, remember this was long before reaction times were listed on the time slip). I would generally win, if the car I was up against had a similarly built engine. I was running AHRA G-stock optional F-6 (engines 280 - 300 cubic inches, single 4bbl carb, and hydraulic lifters). The best my Mustang ran was 13.6 sec. @ 101 mph in the quarter, most of the time it went in the low 14's right at 98 - 99 mph. Pretty good back then for a street driven, mild hot rod. However if the other guy had a cam that pulled more mid range or top end, I'd get beat (my cam was a mild grind Sig Erson 280 duration , .480" lift). I would go through the traps at 6000 RPM, which was my goal. So that combo worked for me then and I'm thinking it will work on the heavier 57's, too. I'd really listen to what Hoosier Hurricane and Shopratwoody have to say, as these guys have raced their 57's for many, many years and really know these cars & racing.
Good luck & have fun.
Bob
57AGIN
Bob:
Like you, I chose my rear gear based on expected trap speed and rpm at that speed. I started running in NHRA stock eliminator with my F code '57. I started with 4.57 gears with my automatic trans, used them exclusively until last year. As I moved on to IHRA stock and then to bracket racing, the engine made more and more power and more rpm, but the tire sizes got bigger to a 10.5x29.5 Firestone slick, so rpm in the traps remained fairly constant. Then year before last, I got it up to 118 mph in the traps, bumping the 6600 chip in the MSD. I didn't want to run it that hard, so to bring the rpm down I switched to a 4.33 gear.
This will show what the wrong gear ratio for your combination can do to maximum performance. Changing to the 4.33 brought down the rpm in the traps, which also slowed the blower down, which reduced horsepower, which slowed the car even more. I lost about .4 seconds and 5 mph in the quarter. The 60 ft times stayed the same, so the loss in et was not at the starting line, but at the end of the run. I'm a lot more comfortable with the 6000 top end rpm, so do not intend to go back to the 4.57s.
John
Jim:
Well I really don't have a clue on how well all my suspension and tire modifications worked out. When I got to the strip and was getting ready to get the 57 to the technical inspection and class assignment, I found I had a major coolant leak. It was due to a couple of stripped hose clamps inside the stainless flex hose, it took a while to get that taken care of, when we discovered a smaller secondary leak coming from the thermostat housing gasket. We had to be careful not to over torque the ARP bolts trying to seal this leak, but got it taken care of, too. By the time we went through tech inspection and got into line for our first runs it was pretty late in the morning and we also wanted to participate in the car show. Long story short, I only got one run in on Sat. (no big deal as we still had all day Sunday, right?) My only run on Saturday was a bust, I think I had too much traction, even bringing the engine up to 3500 RPM at the line, it bogged at the start. My reaction time could be measured easily on a watch .533 seconds. After getting the car off the line, I did my usual granny shift into 2nd (no power shift), then I waited to long to make the shift into 3rd (the engine started missing at 5500 which cost some more time and probably speed). My run ended at 15.35 seconds and 92.9 MPH. I did better last year with street tires and no traction bars. Bummer!!! Oh well, there was always tomorrow. Well, tomorrow never came, the Santa Ana winds (Southern California's answer to hurricanes came up at midnight Sat. wind speeds of 50 -80 mph, one gust measured at 108 mph). The Sunday race program and car show was cancelled. So I guess I'll have to stew about this for another year before I figure out what's going on with my 57. Did I have a good time? You bet!!!
Bob
57AGIN
Bob,
Sorry to hear about the bad weather last weekend. As long as you had FUN, that's all that matters anyway. I can't wait to Columbus, OH next year. I haven't got a Y-block but I can park with them anyway.
Speaking of traction, I called Wedan Street this morning to see when my transmission was suppose to be here. I enquired about the Warranty it had and if I should buy the extended warranty. Well the transmission is suppose to be here today and as far as the warranty goes he said I really didn't need the extended warranty, he'd take care of my problems as long as I was HONEST with him about how the transmission got tore up. He then elaborated. Seems one of his customers in a Mustang sheared off the rivits of the clutch pads. Another customer spun the splines out of the clutch disc and destroyed the input shaft. Another customer twisted the driveshaft off and destroyed the output spline and seal. He said each and every one of these customers claimed they were just cruising down the highway when it happened. He inferred that for a street machine you need to be able to overpower your tires to keep from breaking things. Makes sense I guess.
Ron(shopwoodyrat) told me he had taken 3/4" off each side of his axles. I checked my 53" axle housing and I can take 1" off each side and still have plenty of clearance for the backing plate etc. I guess I'll do that later, then I can run the Drag Radials.
Thanks for letting me know about your weekend. I'd been hoping you'd see the rewards for the effort you'd put into your suspension.
Jim
Jim, I used a 351 W and Mustang type cable clutch. I could have used the stock setup, but for normal driving, the cable clutch is really better, less pedal effort, etc. The bellcrank assembly by its nature, causes the higher pedal effort. If you could get a long enough lever on the bellcrank(z-bar), the pedal effort would be lower, but packaging comes into play. The diapragm clutch doesnt have the holding power of the Long style, but, again, for every day driving, you cant beat it. The stock crossmember would have worked, but it would have needed some trimming, as the Tremec has a hump behind the trans mount(overdrive set lives here). No big deal, really. Pat Fleischman has been running this setup for years in his blown stroked Y-Block powered Custom. He drives this thing on Power Tour and beats the hell out of it. Really a bulletproof setup. Anyway, I believe you have really hit upon the best setup. You can keep your 4.11 gears, andstill get some great gas mileage. I loved mine, but at the time, I had the dragstrip bug pretty bad, so foolishly traded the Tremec for a killer C4 and 4800 stall convertor. Wasnt worth a damn on the street, but that heavy sedan went 11.30s on 10 inch tires(worn out M/Ts) and pump gas, through the mufflers. Blew the Chevy peoples minds down here in Mississippi. I am in the process of trying to get another Custom sedan, and will be doing it a bit different than the last one. Will be a 5 speed, probably will be fuel injected, mod motor etc. Not sure yet, I will see what happens if I can get the car. Keep yer fingers crossed boys, I'm coming home.....
James,
I'm going to start a new thread on transmission swaps. We're beating this one to death. Jump over there in a little while. Jim
James:
We'll all be looking forward to your return home. I'm sure you have some pretty good Fairlane stories to cover your recent experiences. Best wishes for finding a suitable 57.
Bob
57AGIN