Had a good day...actually started a project and got it finished all in one day. I was getting tired of the upholstery stuff,so I got to playing with the new aluminum radiator I bought a few months back...the one quite a few of us apparently got from Classic city. I wanted to move it as far forward as posible to make room for a Mark viii fan and shroud assembly. I came up with this idea that's super fast and easy. I just cut a 1/4" wide slot in the core support, and ground the corner in that area just a bit. This let the radiator just slide down into the frontside area of the flange.I determined I could move it frontwards using 1 1/4" spacers, which gives it about 1 1/2" overall movement. I could have gone more, but didn't want to weaken the core support by grinding more metal off it. The only other cut was removing a bit from the top of the radiator's side mounting flange. If this ends up being the final sizing for the spacers, I'll make some plain steel ones and weld them on. the spacer is not accesible from either side, so I held everything in place with rubber bands until I got the rad. in place and pushed the bolts thru.The first pic shows 6" to rad surface. Note the marks on the masking tape is all I had to cut.
mo' pics
Pic one is where I trimmed the side rails
pic 2 is just holding the spacers in place for the trial fit.
pic 3 is showing what was at 6" is now 4 1/2..
The upper tank has about 3/8 clearance between it and the core support, and the bottom tank has about 1/4" clearance all the way around.
:burnout: :003: :icon_bigsmurf:
Rich,
Thanks for showing us the pictures. I'm installing a 425hp engine in my 57 now and I'm wanting to use a new thermo clutch fan I've got and I need another inch of space between the water pump and radiator. Trouble is, I won't be able to take my radiator support out to work on it. Looks like you got your's looking pretty good. I need to figure out something. Jim
Jim...I don't know about needed work to mount your fans, but as far as the radiator is concerned, it can easily be done with the core support in the car. The only work to the support was the two slots so the radiator could just slide down from the top ( also taking a little metal out of that top corner as I had shown). Hood may have to be off to slide the radiator in, I don't know. The only other thing of concern is attaching the spacers so you don't have loose parts in an area you can't get to to hold them in place while you're putting the bolts thru everything. The rubberbands worked fine just leaving 1/4 of the bolt protruding thru the spacers, but it sure would be less hassle with the spacers tacked in place.
Rich,
I plan on running a water pump fan. The one I've got is just too long by about an inch. The hood will be off so I can get to it.
425 HP?, I think the drag racing bug got Jim :burnout: :icon_bigsmurf: :icon_bigsmurf: :icon_bigsmurf:
I think so Mark
Jim you'll need (4) 5/16 x 2 1/2 bolts, nuts washers, and (4) 1 1/4 long 5/16 dia hole spacers. You should pick up about 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 inches of added space....but that for a radiator with the close to original design top tank. If your radiator is different, you may gain more or less. See the pic I posted with the tape measure on the lip of the core support and reading about 2 inches to the tank....this is what determines how far you can move it. If you'll notice, those measurement pics are with the radiator sitting in the normally mounted position of course.
Frankenstine57,
It's not going to be a motor that shakes the whole car with the engine hitting like a one cylinder Farmall. It's just shear cubic inch (410) and breathability. The bottom end is all Eagle and the top end is all Edelbrock with a 670 cfm carb. The cam is 215/225 .050 dur and .515/.540 lift. The Headers are the one's I bought off Stan at FPA. My Desktop Dyno 5 likes it. I think I will too.
I should see a somewhat smooth idling motor with a lot of vacuum. And, muscle when you hit the gas. I wouldn't have something I couldn't drive 1000 miles without being in comfort either. I still remember the first 427 Galaxie I ever saw. You wouldn't have known what was under the hood till you hit the gas. The biggest concern I'll have I think is not driving it but cooling it. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.
The main reason I'm doing it is I don't think I'll be able to do something like this again. I'm getting too old for this BS. Jim PS The drag racing thing, yea, I'll do that every now and then. I can't build something like this without trying it out. I plan on being at Columbus next year. They are having a FE reunion and drag race at Beaver Springs, Pa April 27th I plan on going to also.
Rich,
Don't take your pictures off the post. I think this will work for me. Jim PS. I've got a Aluminum Radiator that's about flat in front. I should be OK. And, I saved all your pictures. Damned nice idea, thanks. I'm not going to wait and see if it overheats. I'm going to do what you did and put the thermo controlled clutch fan on it to begin with. That's not going to hurt the looks of it if I've got patience cutting it out eaither.
Is it going to clear the slope of the hood when its shut, there pretty close in the original position.
That looks like a neat trick. Just out of curiosity have you checked that the hood will still close? It's amazing what an inch here and there can do at times.
Rich,
Great job and geed pictures. This might work for me as well. Do you think you will have a hood clearance problem by moving the radiator forward? The hood curves down a bit towards the front and I'm not sure how much clearance was orginally there.
Have you found a air conditioning condenser that will fit? The Mustang one I have is 2 inches too wide to fit between the hood hinges. Thanks! Al
Hell, the radiator is just aluminum...slam the hood a couple of times 'til it fits.
Seriously, we could put some 1 1/2 spacers between the hood and the hinges and call the "crack" a specially designed air vent.
No, really seriously....the six cylinder radiator IS pushed frontwards about that 1 1/2, so my uneducated guess is that the 8 cyl. radiator is just going to end up where the factory radiator placement for 6 cylinder cars would be, so I wouldn't anticipate a problem. Pat Fleishman told me he has done this, he just does it a different way. He actually cuts a wide strip from the sides of the core support (right where I cut just the slot) and welds it back together.
I think I posted pics of all the angles, but I can take or post more if anyone needs to see a certain area better.
57dohc...I haven't looked into the condenser yet..I had just figured on ordering the Vintage air one whrn the time comes. I'll look at using the mark viii units also when I disassemble the donor car.
I got to thinking about something else Pat had told me when he did his. He said the bottom of the core support had to be trimmed in one area. That was not the case with the radiator I had installed, but it may be the case for other aftermarket radiators. The Aluminum Classic Auto unit fit like a glove along the bottom..an even 1/4" clearance all the way around.
With that said, if your radiator is different, check bottom clearance closely.
Rich
Quote from: JimNolan on 2012-12-21 21:47
Rich,
Don't take your pictures off the post. I think this will work for me. Jim PS. I've got a Aluminum Radiator that's about flat in front. I should be OK. And, I saved all your pictures. Damned nice idea, thanks. I'm not going to wait and see if it overheats. I'm going to do what you did and put the thermo controlled clutch fan on it to begin with. That's not going to hurt the looks of it if I've got patience cutting it out eaither.
The shortest fan clutch I came up with is a Hayden #2765 which is used on mid-80's Jaguars. There nearly identical to the C9OE unit used on Cobra-jet Mustangs. I have one on my 460 57 Custom along with a 19" steel fan and one of those universal fit aluminum rads and it never gets above 180 degrees.
Randy
A neat installation.
Randy,
I got the 2710 Hayden clutch. It's .630" longer than yours. The only difference I can see in it to amount to anything is the water pump flange nipple depth. Does your 460 water pump fan mount flange have the same size flange as an FE mount flange. If it does and I may be able to use that -.630' overall height. Thanks for letting me know. Jim
I don't have an FE to compare it to but the 428 Cobra-jet guys are using them if they can't find an NOS clutch, so I would think there the same.
Randy,
I'll put my old water pump on it tomorrow and install the clutch and fan. If I've got clearance between the harmonic balancer/belts and fan blade I'll send the 2710 I've got back and order the 2765. Thanks, Jim
My combination is apples and oranges compared to yours being my 460 is longer than an FE. I did my rad fitment, clutch, etc, with the core support in place and had to trim quite a bit to make it all work out.
Ok guys... THIS MAY NOT WORK...I decided to temporarily install my front wheelwells, fenders, and core support just to get them up off the floor and to check out potential fitment problems with all the patchwork I did on the weels, fenders, and nosepiece. Anyway...that aluminum radiator is nowhere close..at least at the moment... to clearing the hood..but I'm talking 1 1/2-2"!
Has anybody installed their Classic City radiator yet? Tommorrow I'm going to make a bunch of small to medium adjustments on the components to see how close I can get it.
Anyway, if anybody was getting ready to do the moving forwards thing, you may want to hold off.
I don't have any manuals that show the front end sheet metal assembly, so I'm kinda feeling my way thru it blind..looking for some good component illustrations or pics. Hell, I'm having a heck of a time just figuring out where the fender should be height-wise at the front.
My guess is at this time, if the Classic City radiator can be moved forward at all , it's at the minimum going to need some rewoking of the core support so it can drop down..probably what Pat Fleischman was talking about when he did his.
Quote from: rmk57 on 2012-12-22 11:49
The shortest fan clutch I came up with is a Hayden #2765 which is used on mid-80's Jaguars. There nearly identical to the C9OE unit used on Cobra-jet Mustangs. I have one on my 460 57 Custom along with a 19" steel fan and one of those universal fit aluminum rads and it never gets above 180 degrees.
Randy
Randy,
I ordered the 2765 clutch yesterday. It also fits the same fan blade I ordered with it. Thanks for letting me know. Jim
That's too bad Rich but that was one of my concerns, it's tight in there. You mention the six cylinder radiator sets further forward which I wasn't aware of, I haven't had a 223 57 since 1966, but good to know.
I know everyone is trying to be creative with what they have to solve this problem. there are custom radiator shops that will build whatever you need and may not be as expensive as you would think. I was checking on the web this afternoon and gave McCulloch Fabrications out of Kingman Az a call. They have a base model 2 core aluminum 26w by 19h they can modify with a front flange to bolt up directly to the outside of the radiator support. I believe he said this was a 2inch core. It looks like this would not project above the radiator support. For my application, the Mustang expansion/filler tank would bolt up on the inside of the support less than 1 inch above that support. The fan could be attached directly to to the inside edge of the support. He said this radiator would be about $450; more than I want to spend but would give clearance issues for only the fan. Just another alternative!
I think my only issue will be not being able to use the mark viii fan bacause of it's 5 1/4 depth. Aftermarket fans, and probably some oem, are avaiable thinner.
When I modified my radiator support to move the radiator ahead an inch, I had no issues with hood clearance. I did trim the 1/2" flange off the bottom of the support to get the radiator as low a possible to prevent any issues.
The original 6 cylinder radiator was a little shorter than a V8 radiator to enable it to be moved forward with the reversed side brackets.
On my black supercharged Y-block car have a fan clutch with a seven blade aftermarket fan with plenty of clearance, even with the blower belts.
My 5.0 Ranchwagon is using the same aftermarket fan and clutch I am also running a powerdyne supercharger.
I just got in my second Aluminum Radiator. I plan to order a couple more for my other cars next month as budget allows.
I will continue to cut and modify the radiator supports so the radiator still mounts like stock, and looks more factory.
The only thing I dont like so far is the ugly welds to hold the top tank on and the lack of an anodizing option to make the radiators black in color. I will be forced to epoxy prime and paint the tanks of mine with a dusting of black on the fins so they look more stock.
Great info Pat...thanks for posting. Glad to hear it would fit moving forward an inch...it was kinda hard telling for sure with all my components kinda loosely in place.
Pat..would you PM me your phone number..I may be in Lubbock next week.
Randy,
I got the new jaguar clutch in and it fit great. Getting the bolts tightened in that little-bitty space was a pain though. But, it's on the engine and looks great. 1" is what I need to move the radiator forward. Sooooo, I ordered 1 1/4" square aluminum tubing to space the radiator forward. That way I won't have air coming around the sides of the radiator either. It looks like it's going to fit like a glove without any alternations other than having longer bolts holding the radiator on and of course the 1/8" slots in the radiator support at the top. Thanks for your post. It's made my life a lot easier with this engine swap. Jim
It's nice when things work out. Glad I could help you out. I think it was an FE or Cobra-jet forum where I got the info.
Randy
Most of you may know this already..
If you happen to notice on the core supports they have a forward indentation. That is for the 6 cylinder application so the radiator core is a couple inches more forward. When I had my radiator re-cored, I took the straps off of a 57 six cylinder radiator that I had laying around and told them to put it on my 8 cyl radiator. That gave me more room in the engine compartment and it does not look like anything is changed. For a while back there a few years ago I was planning on moving to Arizona and was going to install air condition.
quote from Jim:"Sooooo, I ordered 1 1/4" square aluminum tubing to space the radiator forward. That way I won't have air coming around the sides of the radiator either."
awesome idea Jim..wish I had thought of that, but since I hadn't welded in my spacers yet, I'm just going to do the same as you.
Rich,
Have you installed your radiator yet with moving it forward. Just thought I'd check first before I did mine. The hood seems like it'd be close. Hate to cut when I didn't have to. Also, which fan would cool better at idle, a fixed fan or a clutch fan. As you can see, I'm trying to talk myself out of this retrofit. Jim
No hadn't done it yet. Without my front sheetmetal on I'd just be guessing anyway. I did cut the slot in the core support as I posted before, and I removed the flange along the bottom of the support as well so I could drop it down another 1/2 inch or so. I also picked up some 1" square tubing like you mentioned you were going to do for the spacer.(thanks again for the idea). It's less than the 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 I was shooting for, but I figured I could always add a strip of aluminum if I had the room to go further forwards.
What radiator are you running though...that may make a difference. It seem like some of the aluminum custom jobs at least looked lower than the oem's. I do know that 6 cyl radiators are forwards more than the 8's, and I also know that Pat Fleishman has move his 8's forward to the 6 cyl position. He was the one that told me about removing the lower flange so the radiator could drop some more. If for no other reason, my 4.6 used the electric fans, and my wiring harness will have those sensors wired into the harness, so I'm going to try to fit the Mark viii fan and shroud to the '57 radiator and core support. Gotta get my engine in first though to see if I have enough room.
I had modified my radiator support to move the stock radiator ahead and everything has fit nice and stock.
I put one of the Auto City Classic Aluminum Radiators in my car last week and I could not initially close my hood.
The mounting holes in the New Aluminum Radiators are drilled about 1 inch lower than the stock radiator and the neck for the cap is taller.
I redrilled the holes in the radiator up about 1.25 higher, and did a smack with a 2x4 & Sledge Hammer over the neck with a hammer to flatten it's angle to be more like stock, and it fits nice now.
The height difference might not be an issue in a stock radiator support.
I painted the radiator with a coat of black epoxy, then a coat of gloss black urethane. I just did I light coat on the fins, but did full coverage on the upper and lower tanks and side brackets. It looks almost factory with the exception of the tig weld bead on the top tank.
I had some complments on how nice it looked last weekend at the LoneStar Roundup.
The painted radiator looks really nice, and the cooling seems to be fine.
You guys should take advantage and purchase some of these Aluminum Radiators from Auto City Classic while they are still available.
Pat great info..never would have thought of whacking my radiator with a 2x4. How much are you moving your radiator forward..seems like you told me an inch.
Rich, I cut an inch strip out of the support on both sides and reweld the original flanges back on. The lowered inch weld flange gets trimmed off too. I actually loosely mount the radiator, and mount it a little lower before tack welding the flanges on. The radiator support is made of a thick gauge metal, so it welds nice, and after grinding, metal finishing, and some paint it looks stock.
With my supercharger this gives me more room for the extra pulleys and now I can run a fan clutch and 6 blade fan. I still don't use a shroud, as I don't need it and it doesn't look right on my factory looking engine compartment. I do use a non- thermal fan clutch as it really saves some parts if the blower belts come off and get caught in the fan blade. The clutch keeps the fan speed down as well as saves a few hp.
Thanks for the info Pat...so now we know the new Aluminum radiators from auto city will fit under the hood when moving them 1 inch forward and modifying the cap inlet to lower it a bit...cool.
Great info in this thread....thanks ALL!
As a 57 newbie.. I have a few dumb questions... what are the different aspects in a 6 vs.8 rad in sizes?.... the reason I ask is....are the upper and lower tanks different in size?
When it comes time to do my rad... can I use 6 cylinder tanks for a v-8 application?
If i locate a good stock V/8 rad....I was planning to use it with a custom re-core.....am I on the right track?
options?
Sorry Rich to hi jack your thread.... just inquiring on the basics.
Jeff,
Lord knows the amount of information on radiators I know would fit on the head of a pin. But I'll share my Radiator experience. 1. Aluminum radiators are better than copper for cooling. 2. The bigger the motor the higher the BTU the more cooling capacity needed. 3. 1/2"-3/4" radiator-fan spacing is best for optimum air pulling. 4. Cool Kraft Radiators (Opti-Flow) is junk and warranty is no good. 5. The more radiator capacity, the better the cooling capacity. 6. Griffin radiators (not universal mount) are a thing of beauty and precision built for exact fitment and function. 7. All the above is an accumulation of experience I've had and had to pay dearly to obtain using an FE engine with standard engine fan.
Using the same motor and 160 degree thermostat, I have actually overheated using the copper radiator w/heat shroud and drag raced all day long in 105 degree heat with the water temp never exceeding 200 degrees with a Griffin Aluminum radiator w/o heat shield.
I have come to the conclusion if I can't buy a Griffin Radiator for my engine build I can't afford to build an engine. Jim PS Bear in mind that I've only had experience with stock, Cool Kraft and Griffin Radiators used with an FE engine. I'm sure there's other radiators that would work but I've not got the time, need or money to evaluate all of them. Sorry to sound like a Griffin Radiator salesman, but I believe I could be.
Jim
Real Life exp. is much better than theory in my books.....
I used a Griffin rad in a 34 years back and it cooled flawlessly in all kinds of horrid summer heat.
Awesome info..... thank you!
Jeff...I agree with Jim 100%. Is that the way I went? No. If I had no budget restraints, Griffen would have been the choice. I was one of the many who jumped on the special pricing Classic City had when they came out with their new aluminum radiator in pretty much a stock design last year.
The oulets on a six cylinder radiator are on the wrong side for most v-8 aplications. Classic City had an issue with inlets/outlets being not in the correct position when they first came out, including the pics and corresponding stock numbers, that they were showing on their website. I assume by now they have the problem straightened out, but I don't know for sure. If you order one of those, be very specific with them as to which sides the top and bottom outlets need to be on.
I ran into the same problem with the mounting holes and hood would not shut. Had to redrill and lower radiator, would also suggest taping out the drain plug and replacing the plastic plug with brass petcock. Tom
I looked into the Griffin website this weekend.... they had a direct bolt in replacement(exact fit).... no prices(from what I saw)....and the ones i mapped out were for a Fairlane..... i assume the Fairlane and Custom V/8 Rads are the same.The only thing that got me a little confused was there were 2 different sizes.....(core size--18x24 and 16x22.88)
There website mentioned these were a direct OEM fitment.
I guess calling and asking would be the best.
Quote from: Jeff Norwell on 2013-04-22 07:53
I looked into the Griffin website this weekend.... they had a direct bolt in replacement(exact fit).... no prices(from what I saw)....and the ones i mapped out were for a Fairlane..... i assume the Fairlane and Custom V/8 Rads are the same.The only thing that got me a little confused was there were 2 different sizes.....(core size--18x24 and 16x22.88)
There website mentioned these were a direct OEM fitment.
I guess calling and asking would be the best.
Jeff,
When I order mine, I call them and talk to a tech. I let him tell me what I needed. They had radiators for 312 w and w/o auto, radiators for FE engines w or w/o automatics etc. They had any engine combination you wanted. The Radiator that they sent me for the 57 had holes (not slotted) drilled that was so tight the bolts wouldn't hardly pass through them and they fit the mount holes in the support perfect. When I got through mounting it, I considered it a structural piece of the car.
That is awesome info Jim....Thank you.
About 10 years ago I had my stock radiator recored, so I don't need one at this time. I'm just a little curious about the aluminum radiators.
I would assume that the tanks are welded and wouldn't give you any trouble, but what do you do if you spring a leak in the core of an aluminum one? Curious minds.
Buy a new one. My universal fit Be Cool rad was $199.00 so it probably wouldn't be worth repairing unless it was in the tank or somewhere easy to access to tig weld.
Randy
Quote from: Ecode70D on 2013-04-24 07:00
I would assume that the tanks are welded and wouldn't give you any trouble, but what do you do if you spring a leak in the core of an aluminum one? Curious minds.
You know, I wondered the same thing. I've never welded aluminum before but I'd say it's not rocket science. Someone did it!. The thing that impresses me is the width and uniformity of the welds. To look at them structurally they look better built than a copper core radiator. Don't know if they are. They just look like it.
The Radiator shop in Plymouth, Indiana told me (he owned 57 T-birds and Fairlanes for years) that the design of the 57 radiator lended itself to top separation very easily. He said putting a bigger engine behind one of those radiators didn't help. Don't know if he was right but figured he knew more about it than me after 40 years of repairing radiators. Jim
Jim
The guy that did a few radiators for me always had body panel bonding material at his shop. I wonder if that's what he used to patch the aluminum cores. Someone out there knows the answer. Jay
JB Weld
Been a while but ran mud trucks with aluminum radiators. When you run a tree root through the radiator, let it kook down and get the JB Weld out. I still have a Griffin hanging on the wall with a minor JB Weld repair that lasted three years before I quite mud bogging. May not be the preferred repair method but sure worked great for temporary repairs.
I remember my grandpa's car having window screen in front of his radiator. Richard Petty cars had screen in front of his radiators. Every car I've owned had window screen. A local, old time hardware store still has brass window screen on a roll in the basement. My '57 rolls with a piece of that screen in front of the radiator. Radiators are too expensive to replace or repair due to picking up a small stone. Radiators are too vulnerable to road trash not to add a little protection. A little birdie could ruin a road trip. Brass screen is tough enough to stop or at least slow down a bird or small stone or other road debris. If nothing else, the screen acts as a pre-screen and is easily removed to clean bugs or cottonwood seeds
I bought on of those trim to size screens and it fits perfect in front of my 57 Radiator. Works great. No bugs in Radiator. Jim
Just came across this thread and can't stop laughing.When I first put my car together some 37 years ago,I installed a 64 full size radiator on the motor side (FE)of the core support believing that's where it went.Never noticed anything different on other cars 'cause I wasn't look'n.
Quote from: F570RD on 2013-04-26 14:38
Just came across this thread and can't stop laughing.When I first put my car together some 37 years ago,I installed a 64 full size radiator on the motor side (FE)of the core support believing that's where it went.Never noticed anything different on other cars 'cause I wasn't look'n.
Isn't the motor side of the core support where it is suppose to be?...that's what some of us are trying to change a bit.
Rich,I just looked at some pictures of stock 57's.I guess my install was not out of the norm.Some years back I over heard a guy make a comment about my radiator location and how it was inboard to the engine.Not knowing of the stock local,I bolted it in as close to the engine as possible.You would have thought with having the car for as many years and seeing 57's around,(not many here),I'd have seen what a stock location was.Just never did.. :002:
The guy who made the comment years back was probably confusing the 6 cyl radiator location with the 8 cyl. It still mounts in the same place, but the flange on a 6 radiator is in a different location, pushing the radiator core further frontwards than the 8. You can now use the expression "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong...I didn't" LOL
:deadhorse: LOL...I guess todays my day for beating the old nags. Some pics of the install of the auto city alum radiator. First, I temporarily installed my old 6 cyl radiator for reference, and the first pic is that old radiator. Second pic shows the slot I cut in the core so I could slide the alum. radiator in front of the core support flange. As you can see, I also used Jim's idea of aluminum tubing for the spacer, and I removed the weld lip at the bottom of the core support and rewelded. Third pic is the aluminum radiator positioned with the mounting holes as it came. You can see it's higher than the oem 6 cyl radiator at this point. I have about 3/4 of an inch between the core support and the bottom tank of the radiator...so next thing to do is redrill the new radiator's flange to lower it.
Rich,
Thanks for posting. I KNEW it would work. I just chickened out. My car runs cool though and I haven't had any problems with clearance shifting at 5K. The fan sits dangerously close to the radiator but it hasn't hit it yet at any power application. If I ever pull my engine again I'll rethink the conversion. I still have my new clutch fan. Thanks again for posting the pics.
It certainly was alot easier than trying to keep spacers on each of the bolts. Thanks again for the idea.