Guys, I still have a over heat issue with my 351w. I have installed a high flow water pump, a 2" aluminum radiator, and it still over heats. It is fine while driving, but will over heat at idle. I am thinking of buying a spacer to push the fan within 1" of the radiator, right now it is 3.5" back. I also might try a 7 blade fan instead of the 6 blade. Any suggestions? Tim
57 Ford Custom:
While they do not look stock, a fan shroud really makes quite a difference. Another option would be to install an electric fan inside the engine compartment on the back of the radiator. Since you have a 351W the "stock" look is already compromised. These type of solutions really enhance the cooling capacity of your radiator.
Bob
57 AGIN
My big block has about 1 inch or less clearance and it never gets above 185. It has a 26x19 universal rad f series 19 inch fan and no shroud. Easiest thing would be to get the spacer and try that out first.
Randy
Thanks for your input! Bob, I realize that yours isn't a "standard" 351w, what are you doing to cool your 57'? I am getting a spacer from summit. Thanks, Tim
How is your timing. That can also affect your temp?
What kind of a fan are you using? I went through this when we built a later model 302 for his 66 Mustang. He went through 3 so called "High Performance" fans and had heating problems at idle in traffic. They may be great for more ponies but are crap for cooling. I finally convinced him to put the stock fan back on and it's never heated up since.
And like Sprink said, timing can do it too.
Several years ago I had a 32 Roadster with a 354 Hemi that overheated when idling. I was able to cure the problem with an electric fan with a shroud and using "Wetter Water" (I think that was the name of the product). The fan dropped the temp 20 degrees and the wetter water another 15 degrees. I wired the fan with a temp sensor and a toggle switch in order to have the ability to turn off the fan at will.
Timing is spot on. The fan is some generic plastic crap that I found in my Dad's garage while cleaning it out. May this is why my Dad had it thrown in the corner! Lol! I think I will visit a few junk yards this week end. I would like to find a 7 blade. Thanks agian for all the feed back, you guys are a lot of help! Tim
As mentioned before, a fan shroud will do more to cool it down than anything.
Low rider, when I visit the junk yard on Saturday I plan on securing one of those also! Thanks for the comments! Tim
7 blade fans are common on chrysler products and jeep cherokees, little or no mods needed.
zap- :unitedstates:
Thanks for the info Zap, I know where to steer toward now! I was going to look for early 70's fords, if i could find any. Thanks, Tim
I put a shroud on my 292 with AC, last summer was hot as hell, never went over 180. Mark
what shroud did you find works Fankenstein?
I'm going to catch some flack on this because I have in the past. I have cured heating problems in the past on small blocks in my cars by going back to a stock water pump. Everything being equal, my guess was that the water was going through the radiator faster than it could cool. I have a friend who did the same with a 427 FE motor with the same results. I would like to think FORD engineering knew what they were doing. I do not know when we started chunking high flows on everything we built, but just maybe it ain't right. Go ahead and shoot.
I'll take a small shot :003:. In theory that would seem possible, I have seen it on motors with no thermostat, for some reason people think if the remove it they are helping the situation which isn't the case. If you have the proper thermostat that is working properly I can't see it pumping enough through the bypass to cause that. I agree with you in the sense of most street engines don't need these high flow pumps to begin with.
I believe moving the fan within a 1 inch space will really help the situation..... good luck!
The only reason that I switched to a high flow and a aluminum radiator is because I had the over heat problem with the stock 57' radiator and a stock water pump. Thrust me if it was working I wouldn't have thrown money in that direction. I ordered a 4" spacer from summit, should be in friday, and Saturday I hope to secure a fan shroud from my local salvage yard. Tim
Sprink, not sure which shroud I went with. My brother scraps lots of cars, I had about six shrouds and chose the one that fit the best. If you have access to a explorer, measure it. I seem to remember the radiator shape to be more vertical, like our 57's. Mark
Quote from: Jeff Norwell on 2013-05-23 18:11I believe moving the fan within a 1 inch space will really help the situation..... good luck!
Yeah, his fan is definitely too far away from the radiator. I see that as the real cause of the overheating, not the stock pump, the stock radiator, or lack of a shroud.
hav'ta add my 2 cents, when i first got my car it overheat4ed, at least thats what the gage said, it already had a electric fan on it, spacing on the fan blade was around 1", i think it had a shroud on it also, when i went on our main cruise around here the gage would show closer to hot then in the center where it should be, so, in trying to get the heat down, i started eleminating diff things, i got rid of the fan, shroud, and it still looked like it was overheating, hav'ta add, i can take off the rad cap with no problems, has never boiled over during what i thought was a problem, so some day what i'm going to do is take the gage out and adjust the arm, i've tried candy temp gages, the works, its mostly in my head that it seems to be over heating, at first it worried me, not any more, i havn't posted in a while, so i thought i would add my 2 cents, jerry PS, forgot to add, i sold my 51 ford to a guy from Kentucky
I had an issue similar in a early hotrod... drove me nuts.....after chasing every possibility thru the cooling system..it was a faulty gauge.
Well Jerry it isn't my imagination, although the steam could very well be coming out of my ears with frustration! I just installed the 4" fan spacer from summit, now I only have 1" between my radiator and fan. Guess what still over heats! I ran it up the road, returned and let it idle for about 5 minutes, the whole time watching the temperature gauge climbing. I waited until I could see some steam coming from the hood, then shut her down. I guess the next step is a shroud, after that I don't know what I'll do. Tim
Tim... do think its possible to have a internal blockage inside your coolant system.....air or otherwise?
Tim, sounds like you have had some problems with this motor build. A simple test is to warm this engine up with the cap off the radiator, rev it up a little, watch for air bubbles in the coolant flow, if you are getting alot of bubbles you probably have a leak or a head gasket issue. Mark
What Mark said. I doesn't sound like a shroud is going to solve your problem. Also watch the coolant flow thru the radiator. Somewhere in the back of my memory I remember reading a post about someone who had gotten a water pump for a different 351(?) and the pump was actually turning backwards from what it was suppose to be. That may not be the exact scenario, but it was something along that line....it could have been a wrong belt system that was running the pump backwards...but you get the idea...check to coolant flow.
Are you still using our 57 radiator? When I got mine, i had overheating issues when I slowed down to stop. Only moving I stayed normal. I could not figure it out at all. I believe my radiator was the problem. I had boiled over trying to get in the last all Ford picknick at the Twin Cities Ford assembly plant. After that I managed to squeeze a fullsize bronco aluminum one in and had not heat issues at all
As suggested I would run it without the cap on and see what the flow looks like. Did you test the thermostat? Is it possibly bad or installed backwards? I'm sure if you installed a new rad and pump you did the hoses also, old hoses can collapse and cut off flow.. The endless list of things that can cause overheating :005:
Is this a new engine? Did it ever cool properly at idle? A 351 should not be a problem to cool even with a stock rad. Thermostat could be stuck closed.
Randy
Guys, I took the cap off to check for air at idle speed, none. I kept my hand on the upper radiator hose, actually could feel when it opened. Prior to that the line from the manifold to the heater sass delivering warm water, and the return line from the heater to the water pump was warm. Everything worked as it should, but the temp climbed. Went to the junk yard, found a jeep chereoke shroud that will fit nicely! I had to paint it Ford blue Lol! It is pouring rain, I'll put it in this evening, I'll take some pics, maybe someone will see something obviOus. Thanks agian for all the input! Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-05-24 19:18... installed the 4" fan spacer .. now I only have 1" between my radiator and fan. Guess what still over heats!
Well, that shoots my theory all to hell. (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/lol.gif) Got a couple more though.
Quote from: Frankenstein57 on 2013-05-24 23:52... air bubbles in the coolant flow ... you probably have a leak or a head gasket issue.
Frank, he says it is ok if he is moving so I would think if he had a leak or a head gasket issue it would overheat then too.
Ok, now I see Tim has checked that. Assume it/s not that issue.
I must say that I also agree with these guys
Quote from: FORDNUT on 2013-05-23 16:08
I'm going to catch some flack on this because I have in the past. I have cured heating problems in the past on small blocks in my cars by going back to a stock water pump. Everything being equal, my guess was that the water was going through the radiator faster than it could cool.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-05-23 16:33
I agree with you in the sense of most street engines don't need these high flow pumps to begin with.
So what
is the real problem? The high flow pump is a possibility, but it does sound like an air flow problem. Maybe a combination of the two?
What about that "crap plastic fan" that was mentioned? Maybe it's crap 'cause it just doesn't move enough air.
What kind of fan is it, one of them flexi types? Got another fan to try? I think the one off the old Y-block would fit if you still have it.
What temp thermostat are you running? Did you check it in a pan of water on the stove & a candy or meat thermometer? Had new stats that did not work right.
I checked the Tstat yesterday , it is a 160 degree open. I checked it by placing my hand on the upper hose while idling. The temp gauge was almost at the half way mark when I could feel that it was opening. I have yet to install the fan shroud, my grand daughter is here for the weekend, at 2 years old she demands Grandpa's full attention! Lol ! I love that girl! I hope to get it on after church to drive it to a neighbor hood cook out. I'll keep you posted. Tim
Could it be a restricted thermostat? I know some openings on t-stats are bigger than other ones.
Well good news! I installed the shroud and it no longer pegs the temp gauge! It still runs hotter than the middle of the gauge as a matter of fact at the very end of the temp line. But it no longer pegs past H. I took it out for a 20 mile ride, and it ran below the half way mark. Parked and let it idle, with no over heat issues! I will be throwing that flex fan into the back of the garage, like Dad did, no I'll throw it away. On my return, I could see where the fan had hit the fins at an 1" away, I never would thought that it would have flexed way out like that! Any way small problem in comparison to my other issues. Thanks for all the input! You all are a great help to me. Tim
Are you sure the fan is on right, a buddy of mine put a aftermarket fan on backwards, it ran ok as long as he was moving but soon as he stopped the temp would go up. Just a thought I'm sure your smarter than my buddy.
Since you are going to change the spacer again and you now have a shroud, a third of the blade in the shroud and two thirds out for best air flow.
Yes I'm sure the fan is on correct, as a matter of fact, I don't know how you could put it on any other way! Thanks Gasman for the tip. Tim
Back to the fan, when I dirt tracked a 57,427 with a stock radiator, the bigger the fan blades the hotter it would run. Granted ,a dirt car gets pounded lots harder than a street car, but it magnifies the conditions. The best we found were stock five blades, glad to see you are making progress with it, Mark
Take the thermostat out. I always ran my y-blocks without a thermostat in warm weather, in case of a cool night when I needed the heater I had a piece of cardboard in the trunk that I could cover 1/2 the raditaor with.
Lou, I first tried running without a Tstat it was no help. I'm going to look for a 70's style metal fan, not a huge fan of the flex fans any more. Tim
Tim, first of all your not overheating, your running hot, big difference. Steal you wifes kitchen thermometer and put it in the raditaor, that will tell you if your heat gage is telling you the truth. Y-Blocks like flatheads their best between 180 and 200.
Removing the thermostat will not resolve an overheating problem unless the thermostat is stuck closed. If it is, your engine will overheat within the first 5 minutes. Removing the thermostat will create cold drive-ability problems as the thermostat is designed to bring the engine up to operating temperature enabling the engine to operate at 160-180 degrees.
You might want to check your temperature gauge with a temp gauge that you know is good. A good after market temp gauge is good insurance. You also want to make sure that you have the proper radiator cap. The rating on the rad cap s rated in pounds of pressure. When water is placed under pressure the boiling point of the water is raised. With the correct radiator cap the boiling point of your water is raised above 212 degrees depending on the rating of the radiator cap. A 50/50 mix of water and anti-freeze will also raise the boiling point. Each pound of pressure that the coolant is under will raise the boiling point approximately 3 degrees. I looked in the 57 Ford shop manual for a spec on the proper radiator cap and could not find one. Is is important to use the proper- good sealing radiator cap because if your cap is rated too high and creates too much pressure your radiator will blow out at the seams; too low and your car will overheat because the boiling point of the coolant has not been raised high enough. Since your overheating problem ( if indeed you actually have one based on a trusted temperature gauge) seems to be at low speed or idle which really points to the fan and a proper shroud with proper spacing of the fan within the shroud.
I found it. The 57 shop manual states that the proper radiator cap for the stock 57 radiator is 13-15 lbs.
Bill I was about to post the same thing.....but, I'm in the 10 - 12lb group, I think the 15lb cap has caused many radiator failures with the stock tank splitting. After market radiator...you bet the 15lb cap will be there.
Removing the thermostat is the wrong thing to do, with a thermostat or a restrictor you are allowing the radiator to do its job, which is cool a large percentage of the systems water. If your engine is fairly stock, there is no reason to run any kind of high flow water pump either. :deadhorse:
57 Ford Kustom:
Not too long ago I decided I would get more useful information from a good AutoMeter Water Temperature gauge than from a Volt Meter gauge. I now have both the stock temp gauge and an accurate temperature in degrees gauge. It make driving in traffic and idling at car shows and cruising more relaxing and when those electric fans come on I can check the operating range of the fans directly. No more guess work.
Bob
57 AGIN
Bob, nice looking dash! What did you do with your heater controls? I was going to do the thermometer test to get a temp reference on the gauge. I was thinking about getting a numerical gauge to mount under the dash. Tim
57 Ford Kustom:
Thanks for the compliment on the dash. When I bought the car the heater control was located in the area where the factory installed heater controls is normally seen. My car had the inexpensive dealer installed heater, which had a 2-speed on/off switch whose knob could be pulled out like the headlight switch control switch to transfer the heater output to the front window defroster. I don't like gauges hanging below the dash, where the driver really has to take the eyes off the road to see what they are reading. So I had a custom dash insert made to replicate the original 57 Ford dash insert that holds the temp controls, radio and clock (it isn't an exact match, but pretty close) that would hold 2 gauges in the dash where they could be easily read. The single knob heater/defroster control was moved into the position where the cigarette lighter used to be (No smoking permitted in 57 AGIN). lol
Bob
57 AGIN
Bob, I don't like gauges hanging for under the dash either, it is not a look that I like. But I only get hot at idle, and at a complete stop, so the driving distraction won't be there. I plan on removing it once I can get the cooling under control. Thanks, Tim
You do not necessarily need to mount the new temp gauge. Whether an electric or mechanical temperature gauge, the gauge can be hooked up and lay the gauge on the center hump allowing you to read the gauge while driving. After your test is completed remove the gauge.
Bill, great idea! Thanks, Tim
I use an old mechanical type gauge for testing. I remove the radiator cap, run the engine until the thermostat opens and hot water is flowing at the top tank and take a reading there. When the temp reaches 180 I compare it to the electrical gauge reading. Then continue to watch and see what the highest reading gets to. It's easier then running wires through the firewall and setting up a sending unit for an electrical gauge
HOT AT IDLE MEANS THE FAN IS NOT DOING IT'S JOB!!!!!!
At idle, a cooking thermometer works great and cheap. Everyone should have one in their tool box!
Quote from: gasman826 on 2013-05-31 07:31
HOT AT IDLE MEANS THE FAN IS NOT DOING IT'S JOB!!!!!!
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/THUMB.gif)
Really hoping that after all this you don't find out you've got either a defective gauge or sending unit.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Nice article in the June Street Rodder
Well, you guys were right about the gauge, on the top of the H line my car is only at 185 degrees. But, I did get a 7 blade fan off a 72' Olds that keeps the engine at about 165 degrees at idle! Thanks for all your patients and input, I really appreciate it! Thanks, Tim
That's great news, glad it all worked out for the better. I had a suspicion it was the fan as I posted in the beginning about the problems we had with those after market ones.
Thanks Hiball, it was definitely a collaboration of everyone's input that solved my issue! I can't wait to see if my bum spark plug wire is to blame for my engine knock, but with a 1.5" of rain everyday this week I haven't had a Chance to check it out. Today it isn't raining , but work and my son's graduation is eating up my time! Thanks agian, Tim