Guys, I have a engine knock on number one cylinder. This happens to be the same cylinder that I had a stripped rocker arm stud, I ended up tightening the lock nut down the proper distance and double nutting it. The knock is at idle and rpm's under 1500, then it disappears. Should I plan on a rebuild this fall, or is it something else, thanks, Tim
Tim
That's a bummer. I hope that some of the guys chime in and that it will somehow be a quick fix. You are having a bad stretch of luck .
I think I know what your father would do but you probably don't want to hear it right now.
Jay
Lifter not pumping up at low rpm?
Make sure it's not the fuel pump making noise. Take a mechanics stethoscope or long screwdriver & listen to it while its running. If its bad you'll be able to here it. They make noise at the same rpms as lifters.
I drove the car to church today, the one thing I noticed is it knocks on idle, but if I put thecar into gear the knocking stops, I'll try the screw driver tick and try to isolate the issue! Thanks, Tim
Try removing the number 1 cylinder plug wire, start it up and listen. If the knock stops it may be a wrist pin, piston slap, connecting rod bearing. If the noise continues go through the same procedure with all eight plug wires. I guess the reasoning is you don't get the cylinder firing and the sudden downward pressure and stress on the bearings etc...
Randy
Tim
In addition to all of those great suggestions, give some thought to a loose flywheel/flex plate or torque converter. That's another noise also goes away when it is put into gear.
Rmk, it is cylinder 4, the spark plug ceramic is black, and the wire is close to being melted away. What would this indicate? Thanks, Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-06-10 07:58What would this indicate?
Might indicate that the plug wire is shorting out & #4 plug ain't firing at all, or only part time.
I took the wire off and the installation is broke at the spark plug end. I'm hoping to replace it, and that will be it. What do you think? Tim
Sure...go ahead.
LOL...sorry Tim I couldn't resist.
Sounds like you found an easy fix. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Thanks for the go ahead Rich! Lol! I'm upset because they were a set of motor craft wires, but there is a reason why they do not sell them any more. I bought a pair or professional grade Autolites this time. But, if this fixes the knock, I'm a very happy man! On a different note, I watched a episode of American muscle this morning. They said that the early 70's Detroit started to reduce the horses in there engines. Sure enough, my 69' 351w produced 290hp from the factory, but by 71' it was reduced to 164hp! Glad I have the 69' version! Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-06-10 17:46Thanks for the go ahead Rich! Lol!
HA! When you posted "What do you think?" I was about to chime in with something along the same lines.
'Hmm, lemme see, change the plug & wire as opposed to .... ?' (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/lol.gif)
Yeah, the '69 & '70 engines are the ones to have. More compression.
About 1972 or '73 I wedged a used $300 '69 351W into my first van, a '69 Econoline. Took out a gutless 240 six. After I wrecked that van in '76 I got a '72 Econoline with a 302 automatic. That thing would not work in the snow with that damn automatic trans. After a while I pulled the 2 barrel 351 engine that already had a 4 barrel carb, along with the three on the tree stick, out of the wrecked '69 & put both in the '72 van & added headers. Back then I sometimes took that van out on the streets where everyone used to cruise at night. The van didn't look like much & all the '69 thru '74 Econolines only came with 2 barrel 302s. I'd look for guys driving those brand X pickups with 350s in them. They would get a big surprise & I never got beat at the impromptu stop light drags. (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/brows.gif)
That van was my daily driver & do-it-all machine for years & years & I still have it. Don't drive it any more. The body is totally rusted away & it also got hit hard in the side by a taxi. It's just a parts van for my other '72-'74 Econos now. : (
The 351W still runs strong. Never had the heads off, changed a couple timing chains though.
Great engine!
Guys, another gremlin, I replaced the spark plug wires, rattled a few windows, came back and found that the new spark plug wire had really gotten hot. I went to pull it off and it had melted! Probably the same thing happened to the first one. I pulled the plug and it was white it has gotten so hot! Pulled the valve cover off and cranked the engine, the intake and exhaust valve working fine, checked everything I can think off shy of pulling the head. Does anyone have a suggestion of what might be happening? I was hoping to drive it to graduation, guess not. Thanks, Tim
Tim
I know that you would not have had any part of the wire anywhere on a hot exhaust manifold, so I won't go there.
From what you stated, it seems like the replacement wires were not on for a long time.
Questions ....
Is the whole wire melted?
How much of the new wire is melted?
Where is it melted?
Is it only at the plug area?
Ecode, the wire melted right at the plug, so hot the when I went to pull the wire it slipped right off the crimp. Like I said, the plug was almost white it is so hot in that cylinder. Pulled a couple others and they were normal. It is in the cylinder that is knocking, so I don't think it's the piston, rod, or wrist pin. I think that I may have a bad exhaust valve or it isn't seating fully. I may be wrong, that is why I'm fishing for advise, or direction. Day's like this really make me miss my Dad. Tim
Tim
Just for fun, you can take a compression test. Don't forget to keep the throttle plate open when you do it. That could put the exhaust valve question to rest.
The good thing is that this site is loaded with experts with many many years of experience. Over the years just about every conceivable problem has occurred and was dealt with.
Hang in there... I'm certain that someone on this site will give you the answer.
Jay
Encode, I went out and cranked the engine to check the valve movement, it worked like the others exempt, occasionally the exhaust valve would not return fully, I am guessing that would be a valve guild issue ? Maybe the valve doesn't seat all the time. I only say this because my wife had a Taurus that actually burnt the end right off the spark plug, it turned out to be a chipped exhaust valve. Just reaching at this point. Tim
A burned exhaust valve will not cause a knock, unless you have a bent valve/bent push rod or damaged rocker arm. You may want to simply replace the bad spark plug and the burned spark plug wire and see what happens. Also there is a difference between an engine knock and a mis-fire. If you still suspect that you have a burned exhaust valve it is recommended that you do a cylinder leak down test. This test involves bringing the piston to top dead center with both valves closed and injecting air into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. If you have a burned or leaking exhaust valve you will hear air coming through the exhaust pipe. If you hear air coming through the carburetor then you have a leaky intake valve.
I have determined that the valve isn't seating, I am not sure if it is a bent valve or sticking valve. If I turn the engine over the exhaust valve sticks open briefly giving the appearance that the rocker arm is jumping on the close stroke. That may be why the knocking noise is louder up in the intake rather then in the bottom end. Maybe wishful thinking, but for now I'll roll it in the garage pull the heads, and find a shop to do a valve job on it. Thanks for the input guys! Bill, this is the second set of plug wires in a week.
Well, I found a shop that will do a valve job on my heads this week. 185 dollars plus parts, I will have them drill and tap for 3/8 rocker arm studs also, and get rid of those 5/16 pressed in ones. I'm glad I went ahead and pulled the heads, I found cylinders 6&7 exhaust valves had been leaking by also! Thanks, Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-06-17 18:45
Well, I found a shop that will do a valve job on my heads this week. 185 dollars plus parts ...
Both heads? (I hope!)
Both heads Tom.
Well, got the report back on my heads. Cylinder 4 had a worn valve guide, he also had to replace 2 rocker arm studs. He said he had to resurface all the exhaust valves because they were pitted. Over all he said they were in good shape for an engine that was 45 yrs old and never been touched prior to this. Still crossing my fingers that I won't have to rebuild the bottom end this summer, time will tell.
lower end often follows top end, but not always. good luck.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Thanks Zap, I guess that getting it right is more important than driving it. After all there are guys on here that haven't driven theirs in years!
You are absolutely right. Last time I drove a 57 was my last night home before I shipped out to Nam. Now been gathering stuff for years to build my car and hopefully one of these days I'll start building my current one. You're dealing with minor setbacks and your dad would be proud how your honoring his legacy. And that legacy isn't just that well organized pile of metal but you and your kids are way up on that list.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Thanks Zap, sometimes I need to slow down and listen to a voice of reason! Thanks, Tim
You are right Zap, I got the heads back, and the guy at the machine shop told me how to figure out if my lower end needs a rebuild. It does, so out with the engine and on with the rebuild. Is it easier to pull engine and trans or just engine? Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom link= Is it easier to pull engine and trans or just engine? Tim
/quote]
In my opinion it is easier to pull the engine. If if is an automatic, don't forget to replace the front seal on the transmission while it is apart. For a couple of bucks, that's cheap insurance.
Thanks Ecode for the input. I didn't know how much of a pain lining up the trans would be. Tim
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-07-10 16:18I got the heads back, and the guy at the machine shop told me how to figure out if my lower end needs a rebuild.
Did he tell you some trick way to do it without pulling the bottom end? If so I'd like to hear the details.
I agree with Ecode about pulling the engine sans trans. It's usually pretty easy to get the engine lined up with the trans when putting it back in.
Bummer that you gotta rebuild it anyway.
Ecode Jay, did you get my reply to your PM about the arm rests?
I would like to know what he told you also. The only thing I can think of is a ridge on the top of the cylinder wall and some of that can just be carbon build up..
Guys, he told me to turn the crank buy hand using a breaker bar, then when each cylinder is at TDC as it is on the return stroke listen to see if there is a noise, if it seems to be, put your hand one the piston and see if you can feel that hesitation in the cylinder. It worked, cylinders 1,2,and 4 did the same thing, I' ll tell you for sure when I pull it! Tim
Quote from: Tom S on 2013-07-12 07:18
Ecode Jay, did you get my reply to your PM about the arm rests?
Tom
No I did not get your reply about the arm rests.
Jay
Quote from: 57 Ford Kustom on 2013-07-13 06:11
Guys, he told me to turn the crank buy hand using a breaker bar, then when each cylinder is at TDC as it is on the return stroke listen to see if there is a noise, if it seems to be, put your hand one the piston and see if you can feel that hesitation in the cylinder. It worked, cylinders 1,2,and 4 did the same thing, I' ll tell you for sure when I pull it! Tim
If you actually hear a noise that sounds like a major wrist pin or bearing problem. Good you caught it before wasting the time and money putting the new heads on and having to tear it down again.
Quote from: Ecode70D on 2013-07-13 17:44Tom
No I did not get your reply about the arm rest
WTF? Ok, sent again. Slightly modified so you might better understand about posting pix.
Should I have the block sent to the shop to have it the cylinders polished or can I do it myself? What if anything should I do to the crank? Do I replace all my pistons? I just don't know how much or how little needs to be done! Thanks, Tim
Polished? No. Honed. Or bored & honed if needed. Of course if ya gotta get it bored you will need new pistons for sure.
I doubt that you will know what you need to do until you tear it down & start checking things.
Like I said in an earlier post, I finally got the engine pulled! It seems that there is play in all the rod bearings, some more than others. My question is this, other than having the bores honed what needs to be done to the crank if anything? Also, what other than bearings and a new main seal needs to be replaced? How do I know if the pistons and rods are still good? I'm going to replace the rings, but don't know anything more. Thanks, Tim
I guess I answered my own question on the crank, the rod bearings were so shot, crank will have to be turned. Another question, what about wrist pin replacement? They seem fine, but rather only do this once! Thanks, Tim
Guessing is difficult, you really need to have the bores measured for taper and out of round before you can decide if just honing will do it. If it needs to be bored you will need new pistons so that takes care of the wrist pins. If the bearings were that bad I'm think its time for a complete rebuild of the engine. Bearing failure is usually from a lack of lubrication which could mean the cam bearings are toast also. Doing half right the first time will leave you mad at yourself in the future when you have to redo it..
Normally wrist pins aren't replaced. The engine gets bored oversize and new pistons and wrist pins are installed with new rings of coarse. And while your machine shop is at it they'll want to resize the connecting rods to. I would have your rebuilder check your block out to see if it needs boring or not. If it does need rebuilding consider buying a whole "kit", pistons, rings, bearings, etc......
Randy
The cam bearings are fine, although I will replace them anyway. I will do the rebuild myself. I am bringing my block to a shop for the honing and inspection. Tim
Most shops won't work on a dirty block. Cleaning and cooking the block will ruin and require the removal on the cam bearings. Cooking the block will remove lime and rust deposits from the water jackets for better cooling and sludge deposits for better oil circulation.
Gasman, does the shop cook it? Tim
If they can't, take it somewhere else. The block will look like new. No dirt, paint, sludge, or rust. Clean enough to paint. You will still want to run a tap down each threaded hole and little cleaning brushes through all the other holes. It's a good idea to grind the sharp edges, extra casting flash, and unnecessary metal before sending to machine shop.
The usual order of things is to disassemble, inspect for obvious damage, grind flash and take to machine shop. The machine shop will clean, inspect, mag, and measure. If boring is required, sonic test might be advised.
It will spoil a thousand dollars to clean, inspect, mag, sonic test, bore, hone, deck, provide and install cam bearings, freeze plugs, and threaded oil and coolant plugs. This does not include turning/polishing the crank, balance, reworking rods, hanging pistons, or fitting rings. You can cut a couple of services and save some money but you are gambling. DO YOU FEEL LUCKY!?
Another thing to consider is to have the shop assemble the short block. I have the tools, knowledge and experience to assemble my short blocks. My machine shop fits the cam, main, and rod bearings. They hone the cylinders as per the ring manufacturers spec. They grind the rings for the correct ring gap. They have to assemble the engine to do these services. For little or nothing, they assemble the short block and then GUARENTEE the work.
I have assembled a lot of engines. Some of these services were skipped. I made an educated, experienced gamble which services I 'saved' money on. I have measured cranks, bearing clearances, cylinder walls, ring gaps hundreds of times with good success. But just starting out, you can not afford to be wrong. Just the cost of the speciality tools will pay for the assembly charge. The days of throwing in some rings and bearings is gone. The costs of rings, bearings, coolant, oil, gaskets, paint, etc are too high to gamble.
That being said, if you assemble then slow, clean, recheck and ask questions. Get an engine stand. Plastigage is cheap...use it even if you trust the machine work. Clean the block! Clean the crank! Oil the crap out of the cylinder walls. Check the ring gap and clock the gaps on the piston. Dip the piston in a bucket of oil. Make sure the rod number matches the cylinder number. Use rod bolt booties. Plastigage each rod bearing. Make sure the cam rotates.
Gasman, I have a vintage Haynes tech book for a Ford engine overhaul Manuel. It was in my Dad's stuff. I will read through it to see if I want to tackle the project. Like I said earlier, I want to do this once! I already plan to send my FMX to a shop to have the gaskets changed and the overall trans checked. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it! Tim
X2 on everything gasman said. The one thing I would like to add to is, and gasman did
say the block has to be clean.
Even after the shop has baked / hot tanked the block. And it looks clean it probably isn't.
The honing grit will still be in the oil passages , the cylinder walls... everywhere.
It will take (preferably) hot soap (Dawn dish soap) and water with different size brushes.
Have a can of WD-40 ready for the machined surfaces.
I hope to not have stepped on any toes. It looks like Gasman knows what he is doing.
I used to do this for a living.
Everything recommended is excellent advice. For someone that is rebuilding an engine as a new experience a couple of terms used may need further explanation. "Mag" means to check the block/heads/ crankshaft for cracks using an electrical magnet and special powder. This is an important step as it will tell you if any of these parts are cracked. Any cracked parts should be repaired or replaced. "Plastigage" is a measuring tool that looks like a plastic piece of sewing thread. It is used to measure the space or clearance between parts and in this case is used to measure the clearance in the connecting rod and main bearings. Your engine shop will know the correct clearance by measuring with plastigage and can make adjustments if necessary before the engine has a final assembly. Most of a proper engine rebuild involves cleaning, measuring, remeasuring, proper engine pre-start lubrication (includes properly lubricating the rod and main bearings, cam bearings, piston rings, camshaft, valve train (including valve lifters) and pressurizing the oil pump system before starting a rebuilt engine. It is also wise that once the rebuilt engine is started for the first time to keep the RPM above 1200 RPM for the first 3-4 minutes. Double check to make sure that your cooling system is in good shape also and keep a good eye on your temperature gauge and your oil pressure light or gauge.
Tim, I used to rebuild a few motors when I was in high school, but just couldn't see doing the motor for my 57. I had mine built because I wanted it right. When I did put it back in the car we lost a lifter, but the shop stood by their work and it only cost me a little time. I now have about 2500 miles on the car after the rebuild and no worries with it.
You have been provided with a ton of good information from all the above. As Bill mentioned, break in is a vital part. If you replace the cam and lifters or use the old cam and new lifters be sure you use the proper lube on the cam lobes/lifters vs the cam bearing surfaces. You also have to use a proper oil and additives for a flat tappet cam during break in. A whole book can be written on this subject but you still have a lot of time before that happens to research it.
Hiball, I replaced the cam and lifters this winter, I installed a Edelbrock performer plus, Edelbrock timing chain and lifters. I just spent $300 to have a machine shop rebuild my heads, so I think that I will bite the bullet and have the shop rebuild the bottom end. Tim
OK, good. If you are reusing the cam and lifters be careful not to mix the lifters up. They have to go back on the same lobes. You may know that but I'm being cautious.