I bought the complete power brake system from Master Power Brakes. When I went to install the booster I found the original Ford eccentric is too large to fit the MPB push rod. Even taking the nylon bushings off the original eccentric is about 0.162 too big. I have had a two day e-mail discussion and I'm told my push rod is not the correct push rod. Here is their latest e-mail response:
"Hi Roger
The original owner of our company had stopped by to say hello and I had showed him the the pictures
of your push rod and he had not seen your arrangement. We both felt that the push rod may have
came from something else because the Ford push rod has a nub at the end of it to lock in . The kits
we supply have been sold for over 25 years without any change in the linkage or push rod."
Here is my response:
"I will check this out at the '57 Ford and other specialty rodding web sites that I participate in. I will
also go study the car pedal assembly very closely. I not convinced you are correct as this car was
bone stock when I got it and it had been sitting for 17 years before that. It had the original bellows
power steering linkage and I did look it over when the dash was out of the car."
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/57ranchero/brakepushrod_1962.jpg)
What do you guys think?
It is begininng to feel lonely out here... thx in advance, r
Roger,
H(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/shopratwoody/miscpicturePicturefor57Fordemail-76.jpg)ere's the one from my car, it does have a nub on the end :grandpaSimpson:
Ron,
Can you measure the ring for me? Also, does your eccentric look like mine? thx, r
Roger,
The I.D. is .625, the O.D. is .880. I don't see a eccentric, it appears round.
Ron :dumbass:
Ron,
What is the size of the bolt that goes through the ring? Is there an insert?
r
Roger My sons car and my car brake push rods both have nubs on them like Ron's. ours used a sholdered bolt to bolt to pedal. the only eccentric here is me :038: :023:. also your picture looks like the sholdered bolt with a waffer washer would work. :headbang:
T 8)M
[unitedstates]
I will assume there is always an insert that fits into the push rod and rides on that bolt shaft. Below is a picture of the bolt. That bolt is the same as everyone's, correct? If so that means I need to get the proper size insert. Anyone have an extra insert? Btw, could this be a '56 setup left over and my car was in the early '57 production?
Thx again, r
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/57ranchero/brakepushrodconnectionatpedal.jpg)
R,
That doesn't look like the shoulder bolt I remember. Yes they all have the bushing as far as I know.
The mid 70's Mustang MC I used, the orig. bolt and sleeve workd.I just had to make to rod longer. I'll look for you
at the bolt in my car. As for the 56 thing, never had one. :104:
Ron
On my last '57 I used a Maverick MC. It too bolted right up and used the original '57 push rod. r
Roger
My Ranchero's pushrod looks like shopratwoody's and I have a shouldered bolt to attach it to the petal. No eccentric here either. My ranchero originally came with the bellows "Sure Swift" Power Brake unit too. Thanks for the picture of the mounting point. I will take a look at mine when I get home from work today. I just happen to have mine disassembled too as I am putting in my booster. I think your mount point looks a little different from mine I will look tonight.
You would think that all these cars used the same parts but in my experiences they didn't. Three examples I can tell you about are as follows.
1. Front license plate holes on some cars have two holes close together, "more common"
others have "slotted horizontal" holes spaced about 6 inches apart.
2. The FORD letting on the hood was put on some cars but not others.
3. In regards to Ranchero's, your car has two openings from the Drivers cabin back wall that go under the bed, mine and others do not.
I am sure there are plenty more differences like above, I attribute these differences to what plant and date they were manufactured.
So your brake setup may be a little different than some, yet still be original. Looking at it however it looks to be modified a little. Fifty years is a long time and lots things could have been changed on the car over time.
Patrick
Your rod and eccentric looks exactly like mine , it is also a bellows sure swift brake pedal . I believe the kit from MP Brakes are for the standard brake pedals and not the factory power brakes . The pedal Assembly's are completely different .The geometry is different, that is why ford used a 1 inch bore master for non power and a 1 1/8 inch bore in power cars .
I still have the factory power brakes in my 58 with Granada discs in front and it works great as long as you use the right size master cylinder
Kent
Roger,
I read dgasmans posting right after taking pictures of my setup. I found mine to be like yours so I decided to look at my original shop manual on the car. When all else fails look at the book. I have scanned in the standard brake and power brake setup for you to review. They are a little different. I also attached two pictures of mine. I had ordered a brake booster from ABS Brakes. It is supposed to be delivered this next week and I expect that I will have the same issue as you. Either way I will let you know. Looking at the manual's pictures the actual pushrod setup is not greatly different than the non-power, but is just enough to not work the way it should.
Let me know what you are planning to do. If I have the same issue I may follow your path.
Patrick
Dallas TX
Roger
In looking at other diagrams in the book the brake pushrods line up the same on both. All I can figure is that Eccentric must be a little larger in diameter that the non-power units, thereby causing the pushrods to be larger in diameter too. I guess you could either reduce diameter size of the eccentric or increase the diameter of the pushrod opening.
Maybe someone else has encoutered this and has a simple workaround.
Again I will let you know about my setup when I get it this next week.
Patrick
Dallas TX
Briney,
You appear to have exactly the same setup I do. Mine also is the Swift Sure power brake (originally). I'm still waiting to hear back from MPB but I'm getting the sense I've been cut loose from the dock and set adrift. There are a few sources of '57 parts that I will contact to replace the brake arm to match what MPB wants to see and move on with my project; Knotts is only 4 months away. thx, r
Roger,
After sleeping on it last night I have elected to do the same.
Patrick
Dallas TX
I have a Shop Manual sitting right next to me and did not think to open it, geezzzz. :BangHead: I wish I had opened it for better background information with my e-mail disccusions wit MPB.
It appears the non-power is simply a shoulder bolt with probably a nylon bushing to connect the push rod. The power brake pedal has the adjustable insert riding (with a small nylon bushing probably acting as a non-rattler) on the 5/16" bolt.
I think the solution I have is to drill the MPB push rod out to 0.7+ (edited 12/29). The material given up will not compromise the rods integrity I don't think since the "return" side really has minimum forces. If it is too close to the rear edge I will weld a piece of material on it. :angryfire:
You mention the geometery issue which would also impact length. The length of my push rod compared to the MPB push rod appear to be the same. I did not take MPB's off the booster and measure it just an eye ball. If I put this all together and push rod/pedal height is an issue I will REALLY have my panties in a wad as I think I will have to remove the whole enchilada to get to it. :gross: You guys will hear me all over the country!
:115: My recomendation to MPB for their product to be a "complete" system is to make the push rod having the larger size hole. Then provide two nylon inserts depending if whether the customers car is power or non-power brakes originally.
r
Dgasman,
Your push rod looks the same as mine?
r
Roger , Yes my push rod looks just like yours. The geometry issue impacts the leverage of the pedal and not necessarily the length of the push rod . This determines the bore size of the master cylinder. The MPB web sight has a write up about this . Kent
Dgasman,
While mine does not have the nub on the end that is it. Maybe mine was ground down for some reason.
But the actual issue I have is the connection of the push rod to pedal arm. I went last Wed. and got a standard brake pedal arm setup. Everthing now fits.
Bottom line: You must use a standard brake pedal setup to connect the MPB push rod. The push rod connection point is different size for power and non-power. The question I wished I was asked is "...are you converting from power or standard brakes?" and have a discussion from there. Then you can go get parts instead of a surprise. I'm still glad I bought the setup for reasons I posted on our previous board that got clobbered.
When I get the original Ford power brake arm out of the car I will do a comparison regarding the geometry.
We are getting there, r
I got one for you guys :031:My Ranchero has the standard pedal etc... when it was new it had a vacuum booster
on the left side inner fender panel. I gave it to a friend because of camshaft issues (low vacuum). It definetly felt
like power brakes. :cya:
Ron
Ron,
The tank that you mentioned on the inner panel I beleive is actually a vacuum reservior. The power assist came from a bellows under the dash and connected to the brake pedal. I have kept my reservior to remount if I should have vacuum issues with this cam.
Dgasman,
I see you have your suspended panel out of the car. I'm working on mine in the car which is in the final stages including wiring. I removed the hair pin retainer and using a drift can only move the pivot shaft about 1/2". Can you see any other retaners or restrictions. I have been soaking with WD-40 and hammering but no more movement. I'm wondering is it just rust I'm trying to over come or what. Hard to see but I wonder if the bushings are binding. I even removed the set screw thinking the brake arm was causing a bind.
Man I hope there isn't another surprise with the suspended pedal mount. With an almost finished car and if I have to take the dash out the guys down under will hear me.
r
r,
It was a vacuum booster. As in vacuun assist. We put in a 56 Ford pickup and he had power brakes after. (power assist)
I don't see it in the book, but we have had the car since new. Maybe the dealer put in on, I'm not sure. Most of
the Ford vacuun reserviors looked like tomatoes cans. Maybe the canned things :bs:
Later Ron :glasses2:
Ron,
On another thread you mentioned you did not like the pressure stop light switch look and went to something else. I can't find that thread. Can you enlighten me as I do not think I'm going to like the pressure switch either. If it is like the Mustang pedal actuated switch the question will be if the MPB push rod would handle it. thx, r
Roger,
I think I can answer your question since I am doing the same thing. I have attached a picture of the part. Any mid-sixty to mid-seventies GM brake switch will work. The NAPA part I used is SL169, it references a 1969 model. I had the mongo nuts in the picture lying around the shop to mount it to the bracket; I don't think you need ones that big. The bracket is just a 90 degree piece of metal. You can either make one or go to the hardware store and find a suitable candidate for use. Once you have the bracket, drill one large hole through it to mount the switch and drill other side with holes to mount it to the petal support /hanger. Position the switch so that when the petal is up or resting, it makes contact with the plunger of the switch thereby turning it off the circuit. The wiring is the same as the pressure switch.
By the way I got your email and just haven't had time to reply to it. I liked your ride to the junk yard story and the pictures too. It seems like whenever I go to the yard it ether rains or a snake jumps out. But it is still fun to go and look at all the neat stuff! :happy7:
Hope this helps. I will send a picture of mine when I get ready to mount it. :048:
Patrick
Dallas TX
Roger,
Here is a picture of the switch. I forgot to attach it in the last post.
:dink:
Patrick
Dallas TX
Briney,
Great! Like Ron, I like the stop lights coming on touching the pedal instead waiting for pressure and besides helps clean up the engine bay a tad. While I have my swinging pedal setup out of the car that looks like a simple mod to make. And the snakes, fortunately they did not like 30 degree weather but Ray told us there are gillions of rattlers. thx, r
I removed the swinging pedal bracket tonight. Just could not get enough beef to drive the pivot pin out and drop the pedal. Decided to take it out and get a better eye ball anyway. In the picture you can see the two pedal arms side by side. The pivot and push rod connection points are the same. So my previous recommendation about bushings for the push differences I'm leaving on the table. I realize the power assist setup of the times needed a "assist" point with the bellows but wonder why the engineers needed the different arms. They always have a reason though. Heck, now I have a shoulder bolt; I was feeling left out.
Hopefully tomorrow we can move forward again. r
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i246/57ranchero/brakearmcomparison_2017.jpg)
Roger,
It's about time you got a shoulder bolt like most of us.... ???
I made an "L" bracket, welded it to the pedal bracket and used a mid 50,s Chev swith I bought from a Chevy store.
The switch Briney used will work fine. Only problem is the NAPA store where I live has changed owners several times
recently and thet don't know anything. Can't even buy a 13/16 lug nut anymore. BAD NEWS :blowup1:
They are crappy anymore, I returned Chinese wheel bearings to Auto Zone and went to NAPA and paid the big bucks
for the Mexican ones, BUENOS DIAS SUCKER. My Ford may be a little Mex, but it's not goning to be Chinese
Later, Ron :deadhorse:
I'm so proud of my new shoulder bolt. Should I chrome it?
I will go get some Hot 'n Sour soup and a Cheng Tao(SP?) in New Yeller but "it" better not get a taste for those parts. You guys already gave me hell over the solid state regulator for the guages.
Regarding your local parts store, there is a counter guy that always go to the head or needs a break when he sees me coming. It is so obvious; Make eye contact and he is gone! There is even one now at Kragens. Geeez man, if you can't tell them the color of your interior you can't get a fuel pump. Fortunately there are still two at my NAPA, one with gray hair, who will take the time to work the parts issue. They must work hourly I suppose.
When I go buy my mufflers I'm going to ask if one or two bearings come with each muffler?
Man, whats going to happen to our rides when we are gone?
r
Roger What are you going to do when the parts person [ using the term loosely in some cases] comes out with a muffler bearing for your car ? and it is the wrong one becouse your interior is gray now instead of black. :brick: O by the way how is your solid state regulator?, make sure your gas gauge stays in american not metric :gross: :023:
T 8)M :unitedstates:
Guy's,
I'm sorry to hear about your NAPA support issues. I guess I lucked out. I live in a small town / suburb 25 miles outside of Dallas (Forney), and I guess I was lucky enough to have a guy open what is called a NAPA CLASSIC AUTO PARTS store two miles from my house. They deal with new and old, but specialize in old. The guys I deal with there have the same interests as us, and are very helpful. Being smaller they don't always have every part at their store, but they have a parts runner who goes to the main distribution center in Dallas twice daily, so I usually get what I need. If I am impatient, I sometimes drive over the distribution center and get the part on my own. A lot of times the guys at my local store call ahead and get someone to pull the part and have it ready to go when I arrive.
We are funny here in Texas we have a large Hispanic population. Most stores here only speak English when dealing with customers. One other thing I like out here is that most businesses post a sign that says they will not help / wait on a customer if they are on a cell phone. I first saw a sign like this about 2 years ago at a Taco Bell, now I see them in about 50% of the businesses here in TX. It looks like people and businesses are taking back public courtesy a little at a time. :041: Cell phones have brought a new level of rudeness in public, at stores, theaters, restaurants, churches, you name it. :bsflag:
As far as the quality of the parts I find NAPA, AutoZone, O'Rielly all pretty much the same, mediocre at best.
Patrick
Dallas TX
Tom,
I will check to see if they fit the bearing housing. You know, the #10 tin can with the Green Giant picture on it and a couple of hose clamps. The bearing just better fit inside. :headbang: :075:
r
Briney,
I picked up one of those stop light switches yesterday. Since the pedal bracket is out of the car I drilled a hole very close to the pivot point. There is part of the pedal at that point that is flat and presses the switch straight on. This hole was my second as the first try the arm hit the switch at an angle and the switch wasn't going to last long. (Another lightening hole though).
r :025:
Sounds like you got it dialed in just right. I think you will like this switch setup better than the pressure one.
Patrick
Dallas TX
A double update:
First, I recieved a very professional e-mail from MPB today discussing the pedal issue. :023: They have both pedals and and agree you must use the standard pedal with their power brake system. Further, they have noted that sales will in the future ask customers if they are installing the MPB setup in a car that has standard or power brakes originally.
Second, mounting the stop light switch on top of the pedal bracket went south. It stood too tall and hit the inside metal of the firewall/cowl. :brick: So, on to my local Home Depot auto parts store for that "L" bracket method.
r
P.S. Ron, I gave up a few more grams of weight abandoning that second hole; Its me and Kirstie Alley now, Ranchero Weight Watchers.
Roger,
At least you have your pedal bracket out of the car. I clamped the L bracket on and welded it laying on the floor like a
reptile. :gross:
You always do things the easy way! :binkybaby:
later, Ron :glasses2:
Oh oh, it ain't out of the car no mas. You got a picture of that reptile position... no no no no never mind... :gross:
Tonight was doing brakes on the driver side and panel on the passenger side for the HVAC bulkhead connection. I need the fender aprons on to mount the radiator support for the radiator to break in the %$$## cam!!!! :help1: :BangHead: :angry6: :angryfire: :iamsmiling: :pottytrain2: :snoopyz:
r :felix: Where the hell did I lay that new chrome shoulder eccentric bolt????
They say the first thing to go is the mind....can't remember the second! :102:
Roger,
I haven't seen any updates on your brake issues.
When you mounted your bracket did it look like this one in the picture below?
I hope you got it all straightened out. :Cheshire:
Patrick
Dallas / TX
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o271/briney_album/booster/DrumtoDisk0063.jpg)
Patrick,
I haven't had a chance to turn a wrench in a couple of days. Running around the area chasing brake line fittings, found a new piece of driver stainless to be polished out, fabricating the heater panel for the HVAC bulkhead fittings, etc., and the little one was visiting.
The brake pedal arm only had 3" of clearance from the floor. MPB is sending (their longest) a push rod normally used for Galaxies. To change the rod the booster had to be removed. If still not enough clearance I will lengthen the rod. btw, can someone take a stock brake pedal to floor clearance measurement for me? I expect it to be around 6".
Out of the proportioning valve for the rear brakes is a 9/16-18 thread. The only solution I have for that so far is an adapter I got from NAPA down to a 1/4" the reduced to the 3/16" lines. Too klunky for my liking but will do until I figure a brass 180 degree solution. Strange the p-valve uses these threads and the fittings are either hard to find or maybe don't exist. I dunno.
No progress on the stop light switch. But now that I dressed up the under dash wiring and I'm an expert pulling the pedal support bracket, I may take it out again to mount that "L" bracket. Great picture, thx.
r
The distance from the top of the pedal pad to a bare floor of a non power brake assembly is 7 1/2 inch
I took this mesurment from the lower area of steering opening on the floor out to the top of the brake pad
dgasman,
Perfect!
Thank you, r
Roger,
Go back to NAPA, they have a book that has all the fittings and lines in it. They carry (here in B-Ham any how) a line that has the 9/16 - 18 fitting with a 3/16" line designed to go into the stock proportioning valve. I have used them extensively putting together various brake system in various different cars. They have those lines with fittings on both ends in various lenghts. The book also has the same set up for 1/4" lines as well. Wish I could help with a part number or even the manufacture/supplier but I did not save them and it has been 8 years since I worked street rods for a living.
Bill
Bill,
I will do that Bill. There is a friendlier NAPA further down the road I will visit. Armed with your input ask to see the book. If no joy there I will then go to NAPA's distribution center.
I looked at two Ford p-valves testing one and they have a different thread. I have another car to put up in the air (Valve is under the floor) maybe has a GM p-valve. I was going to see how I plumbed it (20 years ago).
Thx again, r
P.S. Regarding your PM, I'm going to talk to the vendor.
this is how i did mine, its not real pretty but it works
Roger,
I bought my P/valve from ABS. They gave me :068: whatever fittings I needed.
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/shopratwoody/miscpicturePicturefor57Fordemail-86.jpg)
The NAPA here in Orange is the worst I've ever been to. Too bad :iamwithstupid:
Later, Ron :glasses2:
Thx Ron.
Your p-valve looks like the two Ford valves I have and use a different fitting. I was supposed to have the fitting in the pack of goodies that came with the system. MPB include lots of couplers and fittings to fit what various projects people are building. The correct fitting was supposed to be included. I don't think I lost it as like taking the car a part two years ago I'm pretty organized. Anyway they are sending me the fitting.
I was and may still put the '40 up in the air. As I remember I used a GM p-valve on that guy. When I plumbed that car the body was off but do remember going through this dance with it also. I also think there were AN fittings I got from (now gone) my local Earl's. Yep, now I'm curious up it goes.
Shopratwoody:
You might try the NAPA store here in Los Alamitos, just west of Los Al High School, at the corner of Cerritos and Los Alamitos Blvd. There are a couple of "old timers" there and have seemed pretty knowledgable (???) for some of my needs.
Bob
57AGIN
Looked under the '40 today and there is a reducer straight out of the p-valve. And, no AN fittings. Too many adult beverages or the almost 20 years have evaporated the memory. I must have matched brake line size to what Ford originally used as it is one size larger than the '57. I might ask that question on the Early Ford V8 site I visit. The non-power brakes on that car are wonderful. r
Thx Bob for the NAPA info. I'll prolly try the one in Santa Ana next. Luckily haven't needed much lately. I've tried
to stay away from NAPA lately anyway. This American melting pot thing has got totally out of hand. :BangHead:
Gotta get back to it tomorrow. Need a small adjustment on the column shifter and the nuetral safety sw. It's
kinda nice have a simple gearshift again after all the racing gizmo reverse pattern rachet bull**** I waisted hundreds
of dollars on for that almighty E.T. :iamwithstupid:
Roger, sounds like the brake thing is working. If the brakes on the 40 work so good, why bother with a booster?
Mine stops with very little effort without the vacuum thing.
Later, Ron :glasses10:
Ron,
Man, you landed on exactly what has been running through my head! I was bound and determined that since this car is a keeper I was not going back to retro fit it. While it is down it will be right to the point of over kill maybe since I was building this car as my long haul personal driver.
r
MPB sent me the connection fitting going from the p-valve out to the 3/16" lines. All of the lines are finished and ready for bleeding. A friend has a tool for bleeding that will not risk of disturbing the p-valve. All is well and moving to getting thecar on the road. r