I'm trying to figure out the plumbing for the ac system, so I can get as much as posible done before the sheetmetal goes on. I'm using the stock ac compressor on the 4.6 dohc. Everything else will be Vintage Air....which I don't have yet. I'm trying to figure out which are the smaller tubes/fittings, and which are the larger. What's confusing me is looking at the Vintage Air catalog,and comparing it to what I know and remember from the Mark Viii donor car.
The firewall bulkhead has a large and small port, as does the condenser and the compressor. The Vintage air catalog shows the line running from the compressor to the condenser being the larger size, which would leave the smaller tube from the condenser going thru the dryer. The Mark viii, however, uses the larger tube for the dryer. Any input/comments/suggestions appreciated.
Three sizes there, large one from the fire wall to the compressor (low pressure side), small one on the compressor to the top of the condenser (high pressure side), small one on the bottom of the condenser to the dryer, small one from the dryer to the fire wall (still the high side). If I remember correctly they are #10, #8 and #6.
Thanks Bill....That's the same as Vintage air shows. I think my confusion was thinking there were just 2 sizes on the Lincoln and trying to relate that to Vintage's setup. I've got a call into Vintage Air to talk to a rep to make sure I order the correct components. I also need to find out if I need a binary switch, a trinary switch, or no switch....I think that info is going to have to come from the Ron Francis (Engine management harness), to find out what their harness addresses. I know it addresses the electric fan, so that probably eliminates the need for at least the trinary switch. ?
If you are controlling the fan with the cars computer use what the Lincoln had. If you are doing an independent control for the fan use the trinary switch. Have used this setup in several cars, works very well, helps keep miles off the fan. The trinary switches the fan on when head pressure gets too high (no air moving across the condenser). If the car is moving and air is cooling the Freon and engine temps are in operating range there is no need to run the fan.
And just to clarify...Using the Lincoln computer will also delete the need for even a binary switch as well, so I won't have to worry about adding any switch at all, cause it should be there already...correct? I think I need to verify with Ron Francis that those issues are addressed in their harness. If I got this straight, the binary switch controls the compressor, and the trinary adds the fan to that.
No....the computer turns off the A/C at full throttle, it still has the inline pressure switch. I think the computer controls a relay and is fed Hi/Low Freon. You need at least the binary to protect the compressor from low Freon and the evaporator from Hi head pressure.
I'm at the kid's place, will see if my prints say how the computer knows what to do and how it tells the system what to do next week.
I typed out a reply to this, must have forgotten to hit 'post".
I wasn't thinking....I'm sure the dryer/condenser/hose assembly I pulled out of the Mark ( and can't use) had a fill valve, and something with an electrical connection. That "something" was probably the binary switch.
Some clarifications, and some new confusions.....Called Ron Francis to see what the engine control /computer addressed with the A/C. Their systems up until a few years ago controled the compressor and fans. Due to the computer working with a now obsolete module that is no longer available, that function has been deleted from their engine harness. They do sell a seperate fan control harness however. I was a little confused trying to follow his explanation. Hopefully I did not understand him correctly, because I thought he said I did not need a binary or trinary switch on the A/C lines, because all their fan control needed was a signal from the compressor that the A/C was on. If that was correctly understood, it indicates to me there is no compressor control. I'm going the safe route, and I'll figure it out later if I actually need the Trinary switch I'm going to include in the system. Talking to the guys a Vintage Air, if I have one in the lines, but end up using another switch instead, it will not hurt or interfere with anything. Much better spending a few bucks now to include it in the lines, than having to go back and replumb things to add one later. I actually ordered a V.A. dryer that has the trinary switch built in..simplifies things a little. I also ordered the biggest V.A. condenser they had that will fit between the hood hinges with no fittings/hoses interference.
Also, the reason for my confusion on the Mark viii system was the item I thought was the dryer on the larger tube may be something else. What now to me appears to be the dryer is all the way back on the firewall on the small line
Your call has clarified how he is doing the A/C or not doing it. His wiring harness has completely removed computer control from the A/C system. So you will need either the trinary or the binary in line. Yes, the switch in the top of the dryer will do the job. I do not recommend wiring the fan to the A/C compressor run signal as there is no need for the fan to run while moving above 30 MPH. The only time the fan should run is high engine temps and high head pressure in the A/C system. The trinary switch will provide plenty of "room" (switch on the fan) for efficient A/C operation. I'm not sure if the head pressure portion of the switch provides a ground or a +12V to control the fan (I think it provides +12V but you need to check to be sure) but I know the other two terminals are in line with the the compressor run source.
That other black thing is a muffler.
Given you have the trinary switch on the dryer there is no need to put anything in line. The more connections you have the more chances of things going south (leaks). Just my thoughts....
Exactly what the Vintage Air guy told me as far as the fan not needed at highway speeds most of the time. Thanks for the input.
This morning I went over and talked to a commercial supply house here in town that can make all of the lines I need for just about all of the systems, so that problem looks like it has a local source to solve the problem.
I failed to mention that the output of the trinary should control a relay......
Yes..thanks for reminding me...hope I'll remember when I actually get all of the hard lines run, and actually get to start on the electrical. There is a relay on my main chassis electrical panel for the fans.
Quote me: "Called Ron Francis to see what the engine control /computer addressed with the A/C. Their systems up until a few years ago controled the compressor and fans. Due to the computer working with a now obsolete module that is no longer available, that function has been deleted from their engine harness. They do sell a seperate fan control harness however. I was a little confused trying to follow his explanation. Hopefully I did not understand him correctly, because I thought he said I did not need a binary or trinary switch on the A/C lines, because all their fan control needed was a signal from the compressor that the A/C was on. If that was correctly understood, it indicates to me there is no compressor control."
Guess I didn't understand him. Looking at the Ron Francis catalog, They have various fan cotrollers which shut the fans off/on according to set termperatures. They also have an A/C compressor fan request module that can be added "if the A/C setup requests the fan to be on if the A/C is on". So I guess that clarifies the fan controllers, now I need to find out what supplies the safety on/off signal for the compressor. I guess I never asked him specifically about the compressor, only the fan.
Rich the wiring for that is fairly easy. Just supply 12V to the control unit in the dash. The output of it for the compressor run is then fed to the binary/trinary switch, through it to the compressor.
The more I think about it the trinary output for the fan is a +12V to a realy to turn the fan on when head pressure gets up to the predetermed point. That 12V is from the compressor run signal from the control unit.
Got sticker shock again last night. I've been looking at available A/C fittings and lines, really hoping to go with the stainless flex lines. A closer look at the Vintage Air catalog opened my eyes to their ProLine stainless hose and fittings. The thing I hadn't realized before was that they assemble to the hose similar to a plumbing fitting with a brass ferell...just tighten with a wrench...no 250. crimping tool needed. Just what I was hoping for...until I looked at the prices. The tubing runs from 13 to 16 a foot, and the fittings are 23 to 29. each! I need 6 hoses. For a 3 foot hose, cost is about 85-105>Yikes! And you still need to do the work yourself. Guess the stainless covered flex lines are out..5-600 for A/C hoses is not in the budget.
I'll probably end up with the standard rubber barrier hose. I found a website that makes custom hose to order. They have an elaborate ordering system that allows you to pick the hose you need right to the inch, the fittings you need from hunderds available, even the clocking of the fittings.
They also have the compressor adapters (the actual block with two outlets that bolts to the compressor)to change the ford quick change fittings to standard o-ring. Optionally, they also have fittings for the hoses that "plug into" the Ford quick change. I haven't checked their prices yet...I'll let you know how that looks.
http://coldhose.com/
See previous post.
Did a guestimate on a hose size just for a pricing reference from Cool Hose...42", #10 O-ring 45 degree fitting one end, and a quick change 90 degree fitting on the other end. $45 bucks. Not bad.
"all components made in the USA"
Couple of general questions....How did you guys route your A/C lines with regards to the core support..under it? thru it below the hinges?
Where (which line) should the service port be located?
Thanks for the input.
Depends on build style. If you are building a daily driver it will need maintenance from time to time so everything needs to be looked at from a "do I have to take half the car apart to do this?" or is it a "slick" styled mostly show build where maintenance will be limited. Building hot rods I like to run the lines together as much as possible, keep them out of view as much as possible and have the service ports on the hard lines at the compressor. My 66 Falcon Ranchero with a 302 EFI was a driver, the lines entered the cabin through the fire wall on the drivers side of center, were tied to the fire wall/shock tower brace with Made For You mounts, compressor was on the upper drivers side of the engine, dryer on the radiator support on the front drivers side. It was a bottom entry top outlet style with the trinary switch located next to the comressor in the high pressure line from the dryer to the evaporator.
You should have a service port in the suction line to the compressor and a service port in the line after the condenser but before the dryer. They can be anywhere along those lines.
Below the right hinge. I needed to enlarge the opening slightly. I used a bulk head fitting from Vintage Air on the right side of the firewall near the middle of the firewall. Service port is located on the suction line near the receiver/drier which is mounted on the right fender well.
Two Bills...thanks for the replys....as usual, it opens other questions for me. Bill W..."enlarged the hole"? mine didn't have a hole below the hinge, which leads me to wonder what the few Fords with OEM A/C did to run the lines from the condenser, and if that is why you had an existing hole that needed enlarging? Of course that would probably mean that oem A/C cars had a different core support.
Bill K...Your recommending two service ports? I did notice that service ports are available for all size hoses. The sketches in the Vintage Air catalog show the routing of all the components, but they have eliminated the service ports from those drawings, so I didn't know where they went. My compressor is at the bottom, so running the service ports off those hard lines wouldn't be a practical spot for me...particularly with our front opening hoods.
I wish I knew someone with an assembled '57 in Amarillo I could look at...need to make sure of where all the sheetmetal "and other stuff" goes before I start running anything....inner splash shields, front of the wheel well, etc.
Rich - I enlarged the opening between the hinge and the core support. The metal removed (about 1/4inch was removed from the core support itself. I will try to get a picture and post it later today.
Picture of a/c hose routing near battery and over the core support
Thanks for posting the pic. I may do the same at the bottom since my compressor is at the bottom. Or may just pass under the core support close to the corner. There is room for the hoses between the frame and core support...as I mentioned earlier, I'm just not sure of how all that sheetmetal stuff gets assembled, so there may be something else in the way.
Rich most systems (R-12) had two service ports. I had purchased several case of R-12 when I found out that it was going away. That was over 20 years ago, can was a buck, bought every one the Roses my kid worked at then had....but once again I digress.
They make service ports that will go in the #6 line for the high pressure side or put a T on the dryer and put a service port on it along with the trinary. As I recall you have the lines going into the cab at the right upper kick panel. I would run the suction line from the kick panel on the outside of the inner fender as high as possible, over the tire and down to the compressor through the inner fender. The discharge side of the compressor back through the radiator support under the battery box to the condenser. The output of the condenser into the dryer and that line back through the lower radiator support and then through inner panel and up over the tire and into the cab. Put the service port in the suction line where it comes into the engine bay from the inner panel.
You can mount the inner fender panel and do all the fab work/routing and just leave it in place. I believe you are far enough along to do that?
Lots of good info and ideas there Bill, thanks. After I piddle with the tranny lines, I could put the fender wells on, yes. I have to do that pretty soon anyways as I need to figure out where the air intake and battery are going to end up.
Can't believe it's a month later and I'm still figuring the A/C lines out. The adapter block for the Ford A/C compressor(FS-10) is only available in rear facing or straight up configuration. This would be ok I guess for top mounted compressors, but not for bottom mounted. So, looks like I am stuck with the springlock fittings and barrier hose for the two lines coming off the compressor.
I may not have had verticle room for the adapter block anyway...the exhaust manifold is just a few inches above the compressor.
Had the rest of the lines all figured out until Wighty came up with the hood hinge modification to eliminate the hood spring and slotted spring bracket. That modification leaves room on the core support for the A/C lines to run thru, so I'm going to do that instead of thru the panel behind the parking lights. All of the lines will be run inside the engine compartment now. What shows up top will either be the teflon/braided stainless or aluminum hard lines. The barrier hose I mentioned earlir will be under the air filter anyways and won't be seen.
Good things take time....it is much better using time now rather then using time to "unscrew" a poorly thought out idea. Cost a lot less too! Which by the way I'm going to have to do with the Ranchero transmission mount...what seamed like a good idea at the time isn't now. Fortunately it only involves some scrap steel and gas and welding wire.
Exactly..These A/C lines are quite a bit more expensive than I would have thought....sure can't afford to do them twice.
Speaking of welding gas...when I started mig welding 6 or 7 years ago, I think I paid about 16. to have the tank filled. It's the small size tank..about 18" tall. The last time it was about 34. to fill. This week it was 42. !!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-01-13 20:13
Exactly..These A/C lines are quite a bit more expensive than I would have thought....sure can't afford to do them twice.
Speaking of welding gas...when I started mig welding 6 or 7 years ago, I think I paid about 16. to have the tank filled. It's the small size tank..about 18" tall. The last time it was about 34. to fill. This week it was 42. !!
Check with your supplier about getting a larger 50lb bottle, cost the same to fill as the little one. My last fill (May of 13) cost me 28 bucks. That was for 75/25. I did have to pay for the life time lease (125) but have saved that over the years on just gas never mind the seemingly constant trips to refill the little one.
I'll check into that next time....just not sure how much welding I'll be doing down the road.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-01-14 07:33
I'll check into that next time....just not sure how much welding I'll be doing down the road.
The gas don't go bad :003:
Surprising how little the cost is between filling the small tank vs a larger tank. When I bought my mig welder, they would only sell the small tank. After a couple of refills (usually running out on Sunday), I snagged a larger tank that held just over three times the cubic feet of the small tank. Forty some dollars to fill the small tank and 60+ dollars to fill the larger one. Gas doesn't cost much...it's the service (transportation and labor).
A/C hard lines...Now that I've got some of my hard lines delivered, anyone got any tricks on how to bend these things without hundreds of dollars in equiptment? I've got 6, 8, and 10 aluminum tubes corresponding to 3/8, 1/2 and 5/8 od. (something new I found out..AN...or Army, Navy... designations are derived from the tube od the fittings work with..in 1/16ths, so #8 =8/16=1/2 od tubing). I've got a tube bender that will take the 3/8. HF makes one for 40 bucks that will take the 1/2, but then goes to 7/8. I don't mind spending the 40. if I can figure out how to bend the 5/8 with the 7/8 bender guides...maybe a sleeve on the tubing?
Edit..just found out ny electrical emt tube bender is a close enough size for the #10 A/c line. I did forget to ask though, has anyone used the spring inserts that temporarily go inside the tubing for a bending aide. I guess they help prevent the tube from kinking during the bending. Do they work?
No experience with the springs. EMT radius is a little large. I have the Ridgid benders...loan them to you. Shipping might cost as much as the HF ones??
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/lever-benders
The Emt is a large radius, but for the only tube I had to bend that size, the large radius was just fine. I got that one done yesterday. Thanks for the offer on the tools, really appreciated, but I'll probably be able to come up with something locally here for the 1/2 #8 line. I have the 3/8 #6 line covered already..gonna work on that one later today. I may be able to rent a bender also.
A few pics... I'm going to put a retainer/clamp on the hardline that will let it move a little. The flex line to the compressor will have the service port right at the fitting to the hardline.
I'm glad I listened and decided on the Vintage Air u bend it lines for the hardlines...look good, and are cheap enough you can buy extras in case of mistakes. This 36" #10 was about 15 bucks. They have the VA compatible o-ring fittings of course. 1 male, 1 female. By comparrison, the #6 Proline flexible line from the bulkhead to the dryer that I ordered is about 70 bucks for materials.
LOL...I said the VA hardlines look good...what I should have said was they can be made to look good. Took me much longer to clean it up than to bend it. Btw, I also found a Spectre 4" 45degree aluminum intake fitting, so I can eliminate that big oem rubber flex connector on the air intake to accomodate a K & N filter.
I'm not gonna get much done today...FOOTBALL DAY!!
Got some more AC parts in, so was able to get some more done. I made the #6 hardline thru the core support and the first of the Aeroquip braided flex lines made up to the dryer. I fought the first Aeroquip fitting, went in and looked at a youtube video by Summit..went out and got the other end done in 5 minutes. I really like this stuff.
For the top # 8 condenser line, I ordered a 90 degree fitting in case plan A, bending the hardline tight enough to fit, didn't work, and it didn't. Unfortunatly, I ordered the wrong $15 fitting, so plan B didn't work either. Today I'll order a tight fitting from Choice Motorsports, the more expensive plan C I was trying to avoid...$40 plus ship.
Gary...My buddy at the restoration shop had the full set of Ridgid tight radius benders, so I borrowed his 1/2". Thanks again for the offer.
I also added a length of shrink tubing on the #10 line where it passes behind the dryer.
When you get to it, show a picture of the top line. I had trouble getting around the hood hinge. I plan on something different when it goes together again.
Funny you posted that....As I had posted, Plan A and plan B didn't work out. Today I ordered a 90 degree tight fitting from Pure Choice Motorsports. They started making the o-ring x o-ring fittings about 3 years ago because no one else was. Purechoice charges 40., and it's the same one that vintageair carries @60. If I remember correctly, the height is around 1 3/8". Really nice people there also, I think I was talking to an owner. I found out they make ford springlock fuel line adapters. Springlock to a 30" braided stainless hose with a 6AN fitting. I ordered a set of those as well. 49. each.
I got talking to him about A/C hose lines and he gave me alot of pointers on assembling the aeroquip lines I'm using in certain places....actually, most of the help was on how to cut the hose.
I also told him an adapter block for the fs-10 compressors to eliminate the springlock connectors was only available in a rear exit..wouldn't work for a front exit compressor tube/block that is needed for a bottom mounted compressor. He is going to look into making those also.
I'll post a pic of the top line after I get the parts in.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2014-01-21 19:53
When you get to it, show a picture of the top line. I had trouble getting around the hood hinge. I plan on something different when it goes together again.
Here it is...90 degree tight fitting by PureChoice, and 18" #8 aluminum u-bend-it from Vintage Air. Note in the last pic, the hood spring retainer position with the hinge all the way down.. If I elect not to replace the spring with a hydraulic lift, I can just trim off 1/4" or so from the bottom of the retainer to insure there is no interference/rubbing on the A/C lines.
Forgot to mention I added some shrink tubing to the tube in areas where there may be some rubbing. The lines between the bulkhead are now done except for the flex lines connecting the compressor. Last night I ordered the 8 and 10* springlock fittings and the service port fittings along with some barrier hose from Cold Hose. Cold hose has a very rude woman on their sales staff that annoyed the heck out of me last week, but couldn't find the springlock fittings anywhere else. Once I determine the lengths and timing, I'll have the beadlock fittings crimped locally.
Gary...I thought about going out near the top of the core support like Bill Whitmore did. If my compressor was top mounted, that's what I would have done. I suspect your compressor is top mount, so you'll probably opt fot a different routing. The higher routing would make for a better service port location. Either way, the tight 90 fitting gets you around the hood hinge.
I was told by Vintage Air, btw, "all systems that we install have the service ports running off the lines connected to the compressor." I think that may be different from some oem systems as Bill suggested, but I am installing a vintage air system, so went with those locations.
*EDIT>>>> I ordered the wrong springlock fittings/tube for the large compressor tube..should be a #12