Been reading in the tech area and there are kinds of ''solutions'' that allow later drivetrains to be used. Personally have no desire to reinvent the wheel but definitely don't want the 57 box. Lots of options racks, delphi (gm),later Ford,Honda, Jeep power box ?year and probably a few more. Seems like they all have some good and bad comments, but what no one seems to say is how well they worked on the road.
Biggest issue I read is exhaust manifold clearance. Which has got me thinking has anyone used a box that mounts on the outside of the frame so that the bulk of it sits over the frame rather than inboard? There has to be a much simpler solution out there. I understand why certain racks are used but if the celebrity rack is anything like the citation rack there's no way in hell I'd use one.
Anyway, if you've adapted something and are happy with ''driven'' results would love to hear about it. Really don't want to spend $1000- if there is something better at a reasonable price.
Zap- :unitedstates:
I took the cheap easy way out and used the 58 box. Drives like dream.
Been thinking of putting a 58 box in my sedan someday. Understand you lose the horn with that box. Did you find any other complications?
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2014-01-23 11:19
I took the cheap easy way out and used the 58 box. Drives like dream.
IMO That's the best way to go. Now if I could just find where I hid my spare 58 steering box that I put away in a safe place somewhere I'd be all set..
My major reason for going with the rack...after driving the car as a daily driver for over a year, the one thing I did not like about it was the number of turns on the steering wheel just to pull into a parking space..trying to parallel park was just crazy. Some of the new boxes like Borgenson's may also address that problem, I'm not sure. Sure, the STFabrications kits are 1,000, but that's alot better than the 1700. Rick what's-his-name was getting up to. Also to be considered with the cost of the rack are all the parts it replaces that you don't have to replace...tie rods, etc. Eliminated any clearance issues I might have had with exhaust also. I haven't driven mine yet obviously, but reports from guys that have indicate I'm not going to be disappointed.
Quote from: clusterbuster on 2014-01-23 11:51
Been thinking of putting a 58 box in my sedan someday. Understand you lose the horn with that box. Did you find any other complications?
Yes, you lose the horn unless you use the 58 column and wheel also, I didn't have either and used the 57 column and wheel. Only minor issue I had was with the wheel, 58 shaft is all splines, 57 is splines and one wide one like a key, I just filed that down. And be sure you get a 58 pitman arm with the box the 57 arm won't go on a 58 box.
Don't you lose a lot of your turning radius with R/P system?
Quote from: rmk57 on 2014-01-23 18:11
Don't you lose a lot of your turning radius with R/P system?
I understand there is some, but I haven't seen any figures indicating how much. I'll bet you could still turn around in a street faster with the power R & P than the manual, zillion turns steering.
We have a Cherokee with a tight turn radius and I was shocked on the first run we went on this last summer with my r&p when I had to do a tight about face turn as the run returns back the way you came. I was heading for another parked car with the tires rubbing underneath and I thought I would have to do a stop in front of a bunch of people watching the cars!
I'm aware of the 58 box being better but its still an ancient box and there has to be a better affordable solution specially if one wants power. On my 51 I used a Fatman kit for a Volvo ( horrors its foreign ) power box and it was some of the best money I spent on that car. Fairly quick easy steering with good road feel. Guess am going to crawl under the 51 and take a bunch of quick measurements and see if it would be easy to duplicate that on a 57. And if my memory serves me right Toyota ( horrors again ) mini trucks had a box that mounted on the outboard side of the frame.
Last thing I want is a system with cylinders and houses mounted on or to steering arms.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Have you tried Borgeson? They seem to have boxes for everything.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Looking at the Borgeson box drawings and measuring the stock box it looks like there is an extra 1" of clearance. I have a 64 Galaxie box and it has almost an extra inch of clearance. The Galaxie box is available as a rebuilt unit for just under $400, it is a manual and is a bolt in with the 64 pitman arm. The Borgeson box is available as a complete kit and is a "bolt in". All the options discussed here and previously require steering column modifications and/or replacement.
If I put power steering in my 58, I might try the Izuzu/ honda box, with the plate to adapt it to the bolt locations. I'll get a used box and go on the cheap. Mark
I know one thing. There are a number of options for us. I want to be able to get parts from the boneyard, rebuild them and fabricate it to the car. Then rebuild a spare if all works out. Parts " dry up" in supply in a way, that sneaks up on you. Currently I have a Cadillac Catera box. The coupling will be in the inside of the car. I don't have a lot of money in the setup yet , so I may change it. Whatever winds up in there it will be power steering, and cruise control.
jjflash, seems we're both thinking alike. While knowing there are some almost standard solutions (Borgenson and others) none of them are budget friendly. And dialing 1-800-Parts has never been my approach as searching wrecking yards and swap meets are part of the fun. Whacking off the bottom half of a steering column and adding a support bearing in the tube is really not a big job, and grinding flats on the shaft for a double d-coupler is a no brainer. The 58 box and column swap to me brings few benefits. Sure the box is better but its still 56 years old. And you're still saddled with the deadly spear and a hellish job if you ever decide to remove it something a coupler simplifies. Would love to see and hear more of your Caddy swap.
There has to be another viable power non-rack option out there that doesn't cost around $1000 to implement.
Zap- :unitedstates:
I always thought about a Mustang, Torino, Maverick, manual box. Tons of them around and should be a big improvement over
my stock 57 unit.
Flashs' post in regard to the Caddy Catera power box led me to a Google image search and found an interesting link. Must warn you that its in a site many here don't like to wander around. Yup the HAMB. The post is titled Technical 54-56 Ford Power Steering www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649935
Anyway it offers suggestions on several options, not sure how different 54-56s are to 57 but it does show a pretty good picture of the Caddy box.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Have to reconnect with my local u-pull-its real soon.
Found a couple more links thru Google Images, just called up ones that showed boxes mounted on frames. One was a ford power forum the other was a Mustang forum.
This box really looks like the early Volvo box that was a common swap into 49/51 Fords awhile back. Guessing the volvo is an earlier generation. The new ones are anywhere from 2.6 to 3.5 turns lock to lock. Really like the road feel with the Volvo box in my 51 coupe.
Zap, The Catera box has 3 turns from stop to stop.The insides of the Caddy box is the same as on some of the hi - end BMW cars.It is a variable pressure box,....whatever that means. ...It requires and puts out less pressure going down the road than , say, parking at your favorite diner. That regulation comes from just 2 wires coming out of the box, and into , I guess the computer. I have no intentions of hooking them up.The rumor has it that w/o the wires hooked up, the box sees only the minimum pressure. Rumor also has it that pressure is enough . I sure hope rumor knows what he's talking about. By the way, Zap, I am a Hamb member. HQ for them is in Dripping Springs , Texas. That's about 20 minutes from my shack....A good point was made about the Catera box. Most are in very good condition as the engine in them seldom lasted 100 thousand miles, and when they blew, it was total destruction.The Catera is a rebadged Opel.
Zap, One more thing. If you decide to go with the Caddy box, be sure and get the universal joint. The splines are like exclusive to the box, on the box side . The column side is a double d. Life is good. I may have to buy an expensive column to cure the top half of the equation.... Try to get the firewall seal too.It seals really nicely. Jack.
I'll just rattle on a little more, ... the money we don't spend on expensive kits, that are easy, fool proof, and all that, but they do little to polish our skills at engineering. That money can be spent on other parts that we can't engineer. Like hockey sticks. New panels of sheet metal. Real kick ass steering wheels,Rebuilding the doors,and windows so they don't rattle.The list is long, and my budget is short, so thousand dollar steering solutions , may be easy ...Just not creative or budget friendly.
Flash, been reading on the Catera box and the variable pressure control is a stand alone unit. Not tied in to the computers. Not sure how it senses speed but it gives more assist under 20-25 mph and less at higher speeds kicks off somewhere in the 45mph range. So when you're crawling along or trying to say parallel park it will take some of the effort away. There are some subtle differences depending on vehicles as the high end BMWs are only 2.5 turns lock to lock and Cads are 3.0 . My daughters father in law has spent years working on high end imports I'll ask him about the control unit. Which as you know it and the hydraulic line sticks out the side right in the path of the exhaust. On one of the forums one guy stated that the end cap can be rotated.
On the Hamb one guy posted pictures comparing the catera to other boxes and the catera had a reworked Ford pitman arm. I replied to his post am going to go back and pm him to find out who did the rework.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Checked my local u-pull-it and can buy the box with pitman arm, hoses, pump, fluid reservoir, and upper link for a bit over a bill. going to have to take a Zap day and get some parts.
Trying to remember where I read a post about plugging off the ports on the side and drilling them on top. If anyone finds that post please toss a link on that.
Interesting thing on these Cateras (rebadged Opels) is that in their home market they call for timing chain replacement every 30K miles, but Cadillac called for 100K miles didn't work out so well on an interference engine. So most of these boxes often have less than 60K miles on them. It must be the same dual overhead cam GM V6 that is in some Volvos. And they also call for replacement every 30K miles.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Zap, Just remember that the u- joint is well inside of the car. I really wanted my connection of gear box and column to be in the engine compartment. That's been a drawdack for me and perhaps a gamechanger. Might look into a Isuzu Rodeo.They have a lot shorter end on the column side. At this point I only have about $50.00 invested, and a few yellow jacket stings from a nest on the catera.Good luck and keep us posted of the transformation to real power steering. Jack
Flash, if you go the Isuzu box you will need to have a pitman arm made from the 2. So you'll need to find a good welder.
If you decide to get rid of the Catera box let me know.
Having the u-joint inside the firewall is really not a big deal, its that way with the volvo box in my 51. It does call for cutting up the stock column and coming up with a mount on the floor.
Zap- :unitedstates:
I only have a couple more major honey-doos and then the fun will begin.
Quote from: Zapato on 2014-01-23 11:02
Been reading in the tech area and there are kinds of ''solutions'' that allow later drivetrains to be used. Personally have no desire to reinvent the wheel but definitely don't want the 57 box.
Fellows,
I had some play in my steering wheel and went so far as to buy a rack and pinion from Tom and John and then found that I only had a problem with the steering valve not having enough grease in it. Now, I know I'm old and a little hard headed sometimes but I continually read about the updating of the 57 steering gearbox. I have power steering and I have FPA headers with an FE engine and I can't see for the life of me how it would be beneficial to change steering boxes. I know it takes umpteen turns of the steering wheel to go from lock to lock but I seldom do that and it's power steering to begin with. It's not like it takes a whole lot of effort. Is the reason something else is better due to power steering vs. manual steering or what. It just seems like a whole lot of trouble to go through with very little return.
Everyone will have their own reason for changing it. Some because the not so great design of the 57's that are usually worn out and not salvageable easily to people that want it to drive like a late model. I went with the 58 box because I want mine to drive and feel like a 57 and thats as close to original that I could do, that's why I own a 57.
Jim, to me its no different than updating to disc brakes. Why bother with an old box that is worn out and even when new was not as good as the next years model.And since the box in my car was/is junk why not use something better and less prone to failure. Not to many of us ride around with bias ply tires so maybe some are fooling themselves thinking the ride is now the same with radials.
I think it boils down to it doesn't have to be better in everyone's eye its just what I want.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: Zapato on 2014-01-29 17:39
Jim, to me its no different than updating to disc brakes.
I think it boils down to it doesn't have to be better in everyone's eye its just what I want.
Zap,
The disc brake conversion I understand very well. I spent umpteen dollars trying to get the wheels balanced. New drums, new wheels or even buying a rotating wheel balancer wouldn't do it. Disc Brakes alleviated the problem. My steering box was in pretty good shape so my experience with trying to replace it is zero. And, speaking of bias ply tires, I am looking at a set now to go on the rear.
If I were restoring my Ranchero, it would be 100 % 1957. But , I'm not. I like more responsive steering ,more horsepower, FM radio with sd card or usb connection, updated a/c,bucket seats,pearl paint, adjustable needle and seat w/o disassembly,Hurst shifter,disc brakes,fan clutch,a few body mods....well you get it . Each of us has his own taste, and the condition of the one I'm doing dictates that bumper to bumper needs attention to a degree that at one time I would have not brought it home. Now we get what we can, and if it's broke ,fix it. Everything is broke on this one.Why fix it with old technology, when the improved version actually cost less.
The Catera was (and still is) very popular here (badged as an Omega), the junkyards are full of them and spares are cheap so if anyone wants specific info on the steering boxes give me a shout.
The pictures of the caddy box make it look huge, is it heavy?
The weight of the caddy box is about in the mid range when it comes to steering gear boxes. Other concerns are it's measurements.The distance of where the input shaft to the pittman arm is just right. I would like for the input shaft to be a bit shorter , but it is, what it is, and it is at the moment , a good choice. ....I hope.
i used a new cavalier rack and pinion..ordered new swedge rods..made brackets to bolt the rack. not driving it down the road yet but seems to work just fine when i start it in the shop. i believe this is almost identical to what rich worth is selling.my total coist with a new rack was under 200.00 and probably 10 hours labor.looks real sweet on the car. did a lot of homework on this before i went ahead and got lots of help from people on this site.could email some picks that were sent to me that i used if anyone needed em