OK, My ignorance is prevailing again. I never gave rear bearings much thought in the past. I just had it in the back of my head they were grease packed like front bearings, but looking at my axels that I had altered, I realized the bearings were not grease packed. Now, finally actually giving it some thought, I realized the bearings are probably just lubricated with the differential oil/fluid from the center section, so grease packing would be futile because the oil would just disolve the grease anyway. I'm also assuming that the oil is slung to the outer ends by the movement of the gears/axles. Am I correct, and should the bearings be pretreated with something like stp on initial assembly?
The outer rear axle bearings are sealed ball bearings (permanently lubed type) that require no additional lubrication. The rear axle seals are actually inboard of the bearing so the differential lube doesn't reach the bearing. It does seem like there should be some way to lube the bearings, but the sealed ball bearings seem to last very well without lube.
Regards,
Dave
How did you determine the bearings weren't greased packed? They should be a sealed bearing.
After Dave's post, I went out and looked at my old axle, because what he was telling me wasn't matching up to my new axles. My oem's are the sealed bearing type. My new ones are open tapered,and the seal is outboard of the bearing.
Rich,
Do you have an aftermarket axle housing with the axle set-up you show in the photo? I don't see how the seal could have room to the outside of the bearing with the original axle housing. Now I see why you were questioning the lube to the bearings because with the axle bearing and seal set-up your photos are showing, it does appear that the lube could come from the center differential housing to the roller bearing that is shown since the seal is to the outboard side of the bearing.
Dave
That interesting, with that set up I can only guess that the bearing retainer is a U shape?
Is there a bearing race in the housing end?
Dave...yes,aftermarket ends. I had the case narrowed and converted to big bearing/old style bolt pattern.
Bill...yes, there is a cone/tapered race in the new ends.
Jim...Yes, the bearing retainer is open..goes on after the axle is in. same with the brackets in the disc brake kit.
Nice set up Rich
So, my assertion that the bearing lubrication is from the differential gear oil is correct, then? I've got everything on the driver's side cleaned up and ready to go back together...I think I'll pick up some stp or assembly lube for the bearings just for a little insurance.
With that open bearing setup, be sure you don't install the seals inside the housing tubes or they'll block the lube getting out to the ends.
Small bearing and Early Big Bearing are sealed, ball bearings and use a separate seal...use no lubrication from the center section. Late Big Bearings are an intergrated, single unit, seal and tapered bearing. LBB are sold as one unit. I thought you had the housing modified for EBB? My experience is that once the Late bearing is split, it will have a tendency to leak. I think they are too expensive to replace every time you split the race from the tapered bearing.
I check-fit the axle to make sure the bearing was still seating after the remachining (it was), but I didn't even try to slide the seal into position. I'm assuming at this point the seal fits into the groove on the face. I don't think I could even get it into the axle tube if I tried, but thanks for the heads up. Colby told me to make sure I check fit the seating in case material had to be removed from the spline end to compensate for the .140 the bearing shoulder was moved out, although he didn't think it would.
That's definetly one nice thing about the tapered bearing...you can see where the rollers are making contact. I've never assembled the oem style with the sealed bearing, but I'm guessing it would be hard to tell if it's bottoming on the bearing or interference at the axle end.
Gary...I guess all I know is the bolt pattern is old style/EBB, so I'm not sure what I've got here...maybe a combination of the two, but it also didn't seem like the seal was an integral part of the bearing. I guess I'll figure out what it is I have before too long. right now, after what you said, I'm thinking he bought a late end and drilled it for the ebb pattern??
edit...ok nap is over. What you're telling me about the bearing style corresponding to LBB would go along with the 2.5 offset I had (which is a LBB offset), and why I had to have him remachine the axle to bring it to the 2.36 old style offset.
Big Bearings are the same size. ID and OD of the bearing is the same. The big bearing ends are different. The flange bolt pattern is different. The Early Big Bearing was a sealed ball bearing that uses a drive-in seal (looks much like a front wheel bearing seal) to keep the oil from running out. Prep the seal with a little lube for startup and a little grease on the outside of the bearing so it doesn't rust into the new flange. The Late Big Bearing (like the one in your picture) is one piece tapered roller bearing that seals on the outer side of the bearing and is lubed by the internal gear lube. In your picture, the race that is in the axle housing should be on the tapered bearing. No prep is necessary except for a little lube on the outside of the bearing to help keep it from rusting into the new bearing end. New bearings come out of the package with startup lube. You should not split the race from the bearing. The likelihood of leakage will increase. Since your are already committed to putting a Late Big Bearing into a Early Big Bearing Axle End, I would go ahead with what you have.
As far as testing the axle 'bottoming out', Ford Traction Loc and open center sections have pinion pins. If the axle is too long, the axle will bottom out into the pinion pin. This is NOT a good thing. You've test fitted before with modeling clay, put a dab of grease on the end of your axle. Insert it and tighten the axle flange nuts (with the disc brake support if that is the way it is finish installed). Check to see if the nuts draw the bearing keeper plate tight to the new axle end. Rotate the axle, if it binds, the axle is too long. Remove the axle and check the modeling clay (dab of grease). If the dab of grease indicates there is no clearance, the axle is too long. NOTE: Detroit Lockers have no pinion pin so axles can be longer. If the axle is too long, cut it off with a cut-off wheel. Grind a little chamfer to help the axle slide into the side gears. Retest fit for clearance.
Thanks for all the info....cofirms what I found out over the past few hours. I'm still not sure how he ended up with a new style bearing. His comment was he thought that was what I wanted, I'm not so sure he just already had them on hand. Anyway, had I not changed to a different disc brake kit than originally planned, I certainly never would have known the difference. Colby is mainly into racing machines and usually deals with much heavier duty stuff, so the street variety/50's cars is somewhat new to him as well. After talking with him, we came to the conclusion that what I had should work, and if it didn't or had problems (leaking, etc)he'd change out the bearings to the sealed type. The sealed bearings he uses have an o-ring on the outside race surface.
The ouside seal thet is used with the tapered bearing is a different height apparently that the sealed old style bearing would have been, and since my brackets were made for the old style height, some shimming will be required. I just spent an hour or so fiddling with shims, and I think it's going to be just fine. He, and his go-to guy for street rod stuff that was at his shop this afternoon, both said there should be a "small amount" of endplay on the axle. After I got everything torqued down, I have what I think would be an acceptable end play of about .006 in/out. I can barely feel it, but that's what I'm getting with caliper measurement. I haven't checked for binding yet, I'll do that tommorrow.
Rich. Let's go back to your original question. Lube. Think what happens when the seals went bad on the old ball bearing style axles. Lots of rear end grease on the brakes and spinning out in radial streaks on the inside of the tire. I am sure plenty of lube will reach your new tapered bearings. John
Thanks John, your input is always appreciated. I forgot to mention in my last post I did install that first axle with plenty of sticky stuff/assembly lube on the bearing.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-12-19 08:40
Thanks John, your input is always appreciated. I forgot to mention in my last post I did install that first axle with plenty of sticky stuff/assembly lube on the bearing.
Be sure to put some lube on the seal also. This set up looks like changing a seal would require removing the bearing from the axle unlike the OEM that you can just pull out and install a new one in a couple of minutes?
Yep, a definite disadvantage. Hope mine doesn't leak. There is a drop of the (red) engine assembly lube I put all over the bearing...don't know if it's a drop from intallation or from leakage...I'll keep an eye on it.
I'm going to go back to my build thread for any followups on the disc brake install.
Rich, not being knowledgeable about this type of axle/bearing set up I'm trying to understand more about it. So, my question is when you have a separate race and bearing how or what sets the bearing preload when you install the axle?
Well, I'm not knowledgeable about it either...lol...I guess that's a statement of the obvious.
Apparently the preload is controled by the bearing retainer. As I mentioned, I was told that the bearing needs to have a little end play. Also, my brake kit instructions kinda confirm that as the instructions say to use the included shims under the mounting plate to "get the proper end play". I'm still trying to get a confirmation that the .006 end play I now have is acceptible...seems like it would be, I just don't know.
Just thinking out loud here....Just from a mechanical thought....two tapered surfaces are going to have not much of a tolerance of where the contact point is..too much presure and the rollers won't function..too little and it'll get too sloppy real quick.
My thought is, I have .006 end play, but I,m assuming that's in and out play in the bearing housing that contain the rollers, and not .006 at the roller's contact with the race. I don't know if that makes sense, but what I'm trying to say is, I would think a tappered bearing would have such a minimal tolerance for proper contact, that the housing would be designed to make it more tolerant.
OK, now I see that shims are used to make the adjustment. .006 sounds like a good number to me, that should allow for expansion when the parts are hot. Thats about the same amount I use on free floating axles.
Since Late Big Bearings are a tapered, sealed unit, too loose with cause the sealing portion of the bearing to prematurely fail (leak). Tapered bearings typically have preload. The retainer plate creates preload.
And how is that preload checked when it is determined by the pressure put on it by the bearing retainer? There must be some specs/general rules or practices that apply.
Off the subject but thought you might like this.
http://woodgears.ca/eyeball/index.html
That was a cool test...my eyes aren't what they use to be! I could lie, but out of 5 times, only two were left of the average point on the graph.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-12-27 13:49
That was a cool test...my eyes aren't what they use to be! I could lie, but out of 5 times, only two were left of the average point on the graph.
A few years ago I did pretty good, but this last try I was only average too. My accuracy was pretty good but my time was way slower then it use to be..