I have a question concerning Y block connecting rods. I have had miscelanous confusing information on the internet and from books and og service manuals concerning what length (center to center) the 312 application connecting rods should be. Obviously there are 2 different lengths with 6.25 and 6.32 used in 272, 292 and 312. Can anybody confirm firsthand what would be used in a 312? are they different for 1956 vs 1957 ?
312 rods are 6.25. '56 and '57 Ford are the same, as are '56 thru '60 Mercury. John
I forgot. '61 to '64 heavy duty trucks are also 6.25. These have casting numbers C1TE. Passenger car 312 rods have ECZ casting numbers. John
John
I have been talking to Guenter about Y blocks, but unfortunately It has been many years since I had my 312 apart so I'm a bit fuzzy on the connecting rods.
Please refresh my memory. If I were to lay a 292 and a 312 connecting rod side by side on a table, is the 312 connecting rod visibly different? I just picture the ECZ 312 rods to be more beefy looking than the 292 rods. Thanks Jay
Jay:
Lay one rod on top of the other. The 292 rods are .070" longer center-to-center. The rods are very similar in shape. The C1TE truck and late 292 C2AE rods are shaped differently at the lower end of the beam than the 312 and early 292 rods.
John
John
Thanks for clearing that up for us. At my age, I'm glad that all of my major projects are done and I can drive them. Now I'm at the stage where I just go out to the garage and putter around and hope that the weather breaks soon so I can take the cars out and enjoy them. Jay
Now if one used a 312 crank in a 292 what is the correct rod piston combo to use.
Zap :unitedstates:
Zap
I'm going to let Guenter in Austria tell you what is involved. That's what he is doing and there is a lot to it. I'm sending him an email right now. Jay
Thanks Jay
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: Zapato on 2016-03-22 15:50
Now if one used a 312 crank in a 292 what is the correct rod piston combo to use.
Zap :unitedstates:
Are you planning to turn the 312 crank main journals down to fit the 292 block? The crank center line doesn't change and the stroke remains the same to you would still use a 312 rod and piston..
Am just gathering information, will decide later.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Zap, Jim, Jay, that is what I plan to do. Yes you can use a 312 crank in a 292 and it has been done since they were brandnew. I have yet to assemble my engine, so I can't tell from experience, only what I read and heard. the 312 blocks were basically the same as 292 so there is no reason against using them as 312s. The only difference of course is the larger main bearing diameter. which turned out to be the 312s weakest point. Obviously the main caps were prone to cracks, more than the thicker 292 caps. Dragracers used to get 292 blocks with the smaller main journals and the crank mains themselves have to be turned down, as well as the rear seal and oil slinger area. As Jim mentioned, because of the taller throw of the new crank you have to use 312 rods AND pistons. 312 rods are shorter to make up for additional stroke of crank and the 312 piston skirts are shorter to clear the crank counterweight on Bottom DC. I was lucky enough to get a decent crank, while I was in the US last fall. Daniel ( from ford barn) already had it turned down for the same use. Thanx again Jay for helping with getting the crank.
Over the last days I collected a lot of information and can now confirm that the so called EBU ( 272,292) rod is taller than the ECZ and you need a short ECZ rod for using with a 312 crank and pistons, no matter if they are going in a 312 or 292 block.
I have my new Egge 312 pistons next to my old 292 and they have nearly the same compression height ( pin center to top) so the shorter rod makes up for the taller stroke. there is quite some confusing information all over the books and internet.
Egge sells their pistons for both the 56 and 57 312, so the 56 and 57 cranks and rods should basically be the same.
The most terrifying fact is that BOTH my 1957 service manual AND the 1957 Mechanics handbook say that the 312 has the same c/c lenght rods as the 292, stating 6.325. How could they get that wrong in a million of books ?
It should be 6.25.
That's as much as I know at the moment.
I found this on Mummert's site. It looks like a 292 HD truck engine has the same center to center rod dimension as the 312... Rod PN# C1TE. He also sells after market rods.
http://www.ford-y-block.com/dimensions.htm
As Guenter said the 312 had problems with the main caps cracking but I have also seen the blocks crack also. Using a 292 block is a good way to go.
I didn't think the 292 HD truck rod was produced until into the 60's so I don't know how they could have printed that to be correct info in a 57 manual?
Jim, the 57 manuals state con rod lenth is 6.32 ( longer EBU) for all 57 272, 292, 312 passenger. that is not correct. 312 has the short ECZ 6.25.
The C1T truck rods are shorter because the pistons have more compression height ( because HD truck had 4 rings instead of 3 with pssgr cars). You can use those rods with a 312 crank. must not use the pistons.
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2016-03-23 09:56
Jim, the 57 manuals state con rod lenth is 6.32 ( longer EBU) for all 57 272, 292, 312 passenger. that is not correct. 312 has the short ECZ 6.25.
The C1T truck rods are shorter because the pistons have more compression height ( because HD truck had 4 rings instead of 3 with pssgr cars). You can use those rods with a 312 crank. must not use the pistons.
Yes, I agree. I was trying to say your manual must be wrong, they are a different length between 292 and 312.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2016-03-23 07:22
As Guenter said the 312 had problems with the main caps cracking but I have also seen the blocks crack also. Using a 292 block is a good way to go.
Jim
You are correct about the 312 blocks busting up in the main bearing area. That was Henry's big mistake with the Y blocks. There are times when I secretly wish to myself that my engine was a 292 with the 312 crank for just that reason. Don't ask me why I feel that way because it sickens me.
I especially worry a little bit when occasionally I have to step on the gas pedal to get the stale gas out of the carburetors. HAHA If I ever get the 57 out this year, I promise to keep my toes out of the carburetors. The big problem is that it has to cost a ton of money for the machine work and parts to do up a 292 with the 312 crank today.
Guenter has no choice. He has to work with what he has. It's even tougher for him because shipping overseas is a killer. Good thing that he has a thorough understanding of what is involved. His automotive work makes me look like a beginner.
Zap... If I had to build up a Y block today, I would be thinking about building up a nice stock 292. But that's just my opinion. Jay
I know how you feel but under normal and even heavy foot occasionally the 312 will hold up. I think the problem is more when people want to build race engines. When I started the engine for the Ranchero all the guys asked if I was going to build a 312, and looked at me like I was crazy when I said NO. But I decided on a 292 just because of prices and parts availability. Having a 312 crank turned to fit the 292 main journals really isn't expensive, you don't do anything to the block and just use standard 292 main bearings..
Be sure to blow that old fuel out real good HA HA :burnout:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2016-03-23 14:56
I know how you feel but under normal and even heavy foot occasionally the 312 will hold up. I think the problem is more when people want to build race engines. When I started the engine for the Ranchero all the guys asked if I was going to build a 312, and looked at me like I was crazy when I said NO. Be sure to blow that old fuel out real good HA HA :burnout:
Jim
I'm sitting here laughing at your NO.
Is that an absolutely NO, or a maybe NO?
I'll be careful getting rid of all that stale gas in the carburetors if the roads get cleared up and the salt and chemicals are washed away from that snow that we had at the beginning of the week. Jay
Everything is fresh in my 312 and I'm not planning on doing any racing, so it should last me.
Jay
Jay, how many times have we said no, meaning maybe, and a few months later we find ourselves doing exactly the things we wanted to talk ourselves out....haha. And your gas MUST be stale, after that loooong winter. hopefully only in your secondaries. Imagine, if the whole gas tank had gotten a bit stale also. Now that would threaten your main caps a lot....hahaha :003:
Honestly I didn't plan on the 312 conversion but just stepped up when the occasion came around. Was buying oversize pistons from the seller, and talking about our projects and that he had the whole crank setup there for sale, along with the correct NORS US quality bearings. When I hear about new old stock and made in USA, I just can't help. :003:
Jim, I hink today it is not so easy to find somebody involved and dedicated enough turning down main journals on a 60 year old crank. I am not sure if I would trust an everyday engine business, with my precious 312 crank, and they have absolutely no experience doing that. Maybe it's different in California, where hot Rodding and vintage racing is still abundant and there are shops around to do this. Not over here certainly. And if you want something special done, it takes the shop time and costs money.
I second Jay's opinion, that if I were Zap, unless he knows very experienced people, he'd better be careful with modifying the Y block. maybe a 292 is a safer choice.
I am not going to race my 312 converted 292 block. I usually like low rpms when driving and tall rear axles or OD or both, which I am going to have in the DelRio wagon. I want the engine to have as much torque as I can have and I will use an Isky cam that is designed for low end torque. It's just my favorite way of driving. let's see how that will work.
Thanx everybody for chiming in and confirming the 6.25 ECZ rods
I have a good running 292 really needs nothing more than a water pump. But it's a '62 truck low horsepower engine. After reading all the posts going back to my original plan. Add a stock 4 barrel manifold, autolite 4100 carb, new timing chain and gears and a cam upgrade.
Will visit Oregon cam grinders and see what they suggest.
One more question. Will the truck oil pan work or does my part chase continue?
Zap- :unitedstates:
The truck motors didn't have the best cam or heads. But depends on what you are going to do with the car. If you are just cruising you would be alright. A cam change and if you can find some G heads would help along with the 4 bbl carb. I use an Isky E4, good for 1000-3000 rpm range.
Guenter, Getting things done in California is probably a lot easier then your homeland..
Portland Swap Meet in a couple weeks will look for a set of heads. Where are the "G" heads marked?
Zap- :unitedstates:
Jim
You must be happy with the Isky E4 cam. That's what I have in my 312 and I like it. I got on it a few times for Guenter when he was here last year. We took the car to a private road with permission and did a nice test run from a rolling start. Try to understand that it was only done to get rid of the stale gas in the carbs.
Zap
Your latest plan with the truck engine is a good idea and should work out real nice for you without getting into finding a 312 crank and having it machined. Jay
Zap, there are a lot of heads out there with the big intake valves and a lot of them have other casting numbers than the (ECZ)G, but here is what mine have. look for the bottom of the rearmost intake runner ( or foremost if you have a RH bank head). Also one of my heads has the 'G' on the head gasket area. Not all have these ! Beware of cracks between valve seats. I needed 6 cores to get a good pair. If your EBU heads are just fine, you might think about adding the 1.52 ratio 312 valve rockers only. they are a bolt on that don't need any engine tear down and they will increase your valve lift. might work well for a mild engine with a small 4 barrel ( I plan to use a small 550cfm for my application, probably a 500 would do for yours). again I am not out for maximum rpm peak power. I want to run my Y block, where I think it's best, at medium rpms between 1500 and 2500. they should be allowed to roll along all day long, doing what they can best ...RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRUMBLE !!! :taz: :003: just love flathead and Y block sound !
concerning the truck and passgr oil pans, they also need different oil pickup tubes. I don't think the truck pan (rear sump) will work in a 57 pssgr car(front sump).
But you will have no problem selling the truck pan, because all the hotrod guys need them to clear their straight I beam axles/tierod. should be easy to swap it for a decent pssgr pan and pickup.
Back to the cracked main webs in the 312 blocks. I have only found cracks in '56 blocks. In '56 Ford specified 130 ft. lbs. torque for the mains. In '57 they reduced the torque to 90#. I have run my supercharged 312s to 6000 rpm every pass down the track for 43 years, have not cracked any main webs. Some blocks were 312, some were 292s with the mains bored to 312 size. I have always resisted turning the mains to 292 size because that decreases the overlap between the main and rod journals. Another side note. When having Y Block cranks reground, insist that the shop maintain the radii at the ends of the main and rod journals. I have found many reground cranks where the radius has been eliminated, and have found that is where the cracks start. Crank grinders are reluctant to dress a radius on their grinding wheels. John
Guenter....a little off topic, but I just wanted to say your command of the English language puts most of us here to shame. I think we forget sometimes we're conversing with an Austrian.....or maybe your really an English teacher from Connecticut teaching a foreign language over there???
Want to thank all you guys this has been real informative. Portland Swap Meet is just around the corner so will search for heads, oil pan and pickup
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: Hoosier Hurricane on 2016-03-24 06:48
Back to the cracked main webs in the 312 blocks. I have only found cracks in '56 blocks. In '56 Ford specified 130 ft. lbs. torque for the mains. When having Y Block cranks reground, insist that the shop maintain the radii at the ends of the main and rod journals. I have found many reground cranks where the radius has been eliminated, and have found that is where the cracks start. Crank grinders are reluctant to dress a radius on their grinding wheels. John
John... Thanks for that reminder about the 312 main web area. I have no intention of taking my car on the track, but really was a little worried about that area. I feel a little better now. Now I have to email Guenter and see if his crank main radii on his crank are OK. I didn't check it that closely when it got delivered to my shop before it got shipped to Austria. . Jay
Thank you John for sharing your first hand experience. I see what you mean be weakening the crankshaft by decreasing the overlap of mains to rod journals and that is a good thought in racing application. I had read before about the extensive torque specs in the 56 312s and is easy to understand where that additional stress would help cracking the block.
I just checked my crank and it has nice little radii in the turned down areas. a sharp corner could increase the stress factor x2, that is true.
Again, I will not be racing my wagon and I think that engine should easily cope with my driving habits. I just want a solid 292 with maybe that little extra 312 torque added.
I am a little worried though that my engine will be built from at least 4-6 different ones and I will check and recheck everything many times. I want to put the rotating assembly in the block with all caps torqued and without piston rings so I make sure it spins freely and will check all the bearings afterwards. there is a million mistakes to be made when you are changing nearly everything in an engine.
Like Jay said I have no choice. I bought 3 292s and none of them was good. from uneven decking to frozen pistons and mixed rods to a freeze cracked block and cracked heads and damaged rocker assemblies. I have about 2 tons of Y block scrap iron in my place.....haha.... :003:
Yes Rich, now you got me. I've been sent over here to bring some light to the blind -er- English to the German speaking...haha
Honestly that is flattering, but I know how my English is still limited. ask Jay, most times when we talk he doesn't really understand me and insists in talking German....hahaha.... :002:
I owe it all to my brilliant English teachers, one of them had been studying in NY in the 1940s and 1950s.
Quote from: Zapato on 2016-03-24 10:04
Want to thank all you guys this has been real informative. Portland Swap Meet is just around the corner so will search for heads, oil pan and pickup
Zap- :unitedstates:
ZAP there is a later head out there called the 113. it also has the big intake valves. be sure to use those heads in matching pairs because some of them have a different chamber size (ie F code for less compression or later HD heads)
Guenter, assembling an engine out of a bunch of different ones has always worked for me when I have done it. After all, new engines were built from parts from different suppliers. One thing that I have figured out for myself is that things are simpler than I make them out to be.... keep the faith. :003:
Guenter, my current engine is made from a conglomeration of different parts from different years. Runs like a dream.. It started from a 272 EDB Dearborn block.
Guys:
For street use, the lack of a radius on the journals probably won't make any difference as far as cracking. I have only seen cracking starting on cranks that have hundreds of 1/4 mile runs on them. I have broken one crankshaft into 9 pieces, I put one too many runs on it without magging the crank. It was a regrind without radii.
John
Quote from: Hoosier Hurricane on 2016-03-25 06:41
Guys:
For street use, the lack of a radius on the journals probably won't make any difference as far as cracking. I have only seen cracking starting on cranks that have hundreds of 1/4 mile runs on them. I have broken one crankshaft into 9 pieces, I put one too many runs on it without magging the crank. It was a regrind without radii.
John
John... Since I'm not going to be doing any racing, that's a very comforting thought. I'm thinking that there was there wasn't much at all that you could have salvaged from the engine after the crank busted up into pieces.
Guenter... I suppose that means when you make your frequent trips to Germany, that you will be OK driving the 57 on the Autobahn without any speed limit. Well maybe just enough to get the old gas out of the carburetor.. HAHA
Jay, who knows what the speed limit will be when I finish with the 57...haha...in 2025 or something like that....
My driving habits are so that I rarely go beyond 3k. that's exactly where the 34 does about 90mph and she loves those rpms.
The 57 will have pretty much the same cui displacement and axle gearing ( but with OD). maybe it's a little heavier, but I think I will rarely get the 312 over 3k for long. except getting rid of stale gas of course.....hahaha....
It's still good to learn about John's racing experience. it helps eliminating mistakes before making them.
@Lynn and Jim. I like your attitude and will build my engine with faith. Still a little checking here and there won't hurt either.
:unitedstates:Is there a difference between the Ford and Merc.312 engines.My 272 is running on a gas can and new plugs.The cap looks fairly new as does the rotor.I have a miss,we think its a wire.Im waiting for the sending unit to be restored,it was probably done today but I didnt check.My tank is back from renew,and I picked up 4 205 75r 14 s today .Now im taking my favorite lady to the corner for dinner and a beer.. Isnt Life great........Racton
Racton
I don't think that there is much difference between the Merc. and the Ford 312 but someone will let you know. It seems to me that someone said that 205 75 R14 is the correct size radial tires. Those are what I'm getting ready to put on my car very shortly.
Radius corners. ... from my almost 40 years of work as a machinist a radius corner is always the prefered result. During my Navy days repaired many a pump shaft everyone that failed was at a shoulder. Often it was impossible to tell whether the it was radiused or not. My personal observation was that on some was that whoever had machined the shaft when facing off the shoulders for lengh had actually undercut the adjoining diameter. My early training was to always radius shoulders. Maybe it was a bit of overkill on some parts but if it's my parts radius would be my choice.
Can truly understand why a grinder operator wouldn't want to radius shoulders as he would loose a bit of wheel diameter. My thinking just adjust price to cover wheel wear.
Zap- :unitedstates:
ECZ-G Heads are the ones to use. They are good for 20+ hp. The hi-lift rockers are cheap power also.
Be sure to use a 57 up distributor.
You will need a pass car (front sump) oil pan, pick-up tube and the frt cover is slightly different but,
you my not need to change it.
57 up exhaust manifolds are better too.
Goodluck,
Ron.
How does one identify the high lift rockers? Or is there a source for them?
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: Zapato on 2016-03-27 09:30
How does one identify the high lift rockers? Or is there a source for them?
Zap- :unitedstates:
Casting numbers are different. I always check this measurement.
Great pic, Jim, just saved it in my files. shows how the rocker with the higher ratio is the shorter one in dimensions.( since the valve side arm has the same length, so the pushrod side has to be shorter for higher ratio).
I just use an 11/32 drill bit to measure, if it doesn't fit between the adjusting ball and the body it's a 1.54 ratio
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2016-03-27 11:59
I just use an 11/32 drill bit to measure, if it doesn't fit between the adjusting ball and the body it's a 1.54 ratio
UM...... Mr. Jim sir Just one question please.
What do I do with the 11/32 drill? Do I leave it in the rocker arm and install the rocker cover? Should I put a couple of tie wraps on it to hold it in place?
Quote from: Ecode70D on 2016-03-27 12:24
UM...... Mr. Jim sir Just one question please.
What do I do with the 11/32 drill? Do I leave it in the rocker arm and install the rocker cover? Should I put a couple of tie wraps on it to hold it in place?
Too many Easter eggs today Jay? At your age and experience you should know to use duct tape :003:
Jim
I decided to not even bother to open it up to see what I actually did that I can't remember now anyways.
So the whole thing makes no difference. The car runs beautifully and if it ain't broken, I'm not going to fix it. That amount of time would be better spent taking a nap. Jay
I have to say, I really enjoyed reading about the Y block engine. I haven't run one since 1970. That motor had every piece of performance you could think about. It developed a knock, and I found the block to be cob - webbed where the main cap bolts go into the block.I installed the first version of the 289 cobra [5 bolt bell housing ] and never looked back. Still I like the Y block sound, and would be inclined to build another one if my life is long enough to get around to that. I'm soon to be 64, and have way too many projects.I had that 57 ranchero for 23 years. I am currently building the one I always wanted, and will stick with the small block for this build.
Met a fellow last week at the Portland Swap Meet that deals in nothing but y-block parts. I will. Visit him next week to buy an oil pan and pickup tube ($20-) and check out some G heads ($200-) and the best part of it he's about 15 minutes away from me. No shipping costs and get to personally check out what am buying.
Only thing keeping me away from going over is waiting to get my truck back from body shop. Nothing more aggravating than dealing with hit and run parking lot damage. Hopefully there is a special wing for those a**holes in HELL.
Zap- :unitedstates: