Howdy,
Had this thing running earlier today for a couple minutes, then worked on putting the front end back on, then this evening decided to take everybody for a quick spin around the block since I have all the lights on it now. It cranked up, sputtered a little, acted like it wanted to die, then did. Afterwards, it completely did not want to start. Eventually it took 20 minutes, jumper cables, and starter fluid to get it going. Still sputters at idle and will die if not throttled.
Its always had a few drops out the exhaust at startup, but i figured it was condensation, and it would stop after it warmed up.
Tonight this seems a good bit excessive and im thinking im getting water in a cylinder. Im not seeing anything that looks like water in the oil, so im hoping a sleeve is not cracked.
What do you think? Head gasket? They are brand new. Might need re-torqued?
Its not warmed up in this video, but im suspecting this isnt normal, its still 90 degrees here, and that would be a ton of condensation regardless.
What do yall think im looking at?
https://youtu.be/1fYoNf2WX2Q
That looks like more then condensation unfortunately.
is this slightly greasy like coolant ? if you have anti freeze in there.
you better remove the plugs to check each cylinder. before that, if you have a heater installed, who knows. it could be a damaged thermostatic valve that the carb is sucking coolant from.
Good suggestion G, I forgot about the valve as I don't use them.
Morning, yeah, no heater at all. Car is a complete delete car.
Planning on pulling the plugs today and see whats up.
It would be interesting to know if you ever found the origin of the funny noise that you posted earlier or if there is a connection between the two problems. It could also be a cracked head, which Y blocks are quite known for. What is your experience on that Jim ?
I've never had a cracked head on a Y, maybe just lucky.
Maybe it's just my bad luck, but out of 4 engines and 2 donor heads I have a stack of 4 cracked heads on the scrap iron pile.
Now let's hope for Eugene that it is just a simple odd problem or a faulty head gasket.
Not 100 % sure on that crazy woodblock sound, but pretty sure its the choke tube leaking exhaust, like was suggested on this site. Its calmed down a bit lately. Theres a little soot up against the inside of the head directly across from the opening. Was planning on addressing the tube soon, but needing it to ride as is for a moment.
Pulled the plugs (completely dry and sooty), turned engine over to see if it might spit some water, ....nothing. Dont have a way to look into the cylinders. Ran compression gauge on the cylinders, ...all 8 exactly at 120.
For just a little extra good times, found the autolite 2100 leaking around the power valve or acc pump, or both. Might explain the black plugs. Plugs cleaned up fairly decent with just a blue shop towel. Taking the 2100 back apart.
Anyways, planning on re-torquing the heads and seeing where im at. Got new head gaskets on speed dial.
There shouldn't be any exhaust from the choke tube. The exhaust cross over only heats the air in the tube chamber. Maybe the crossover has burned through or the manifold is cracked?
A blown power valve could be letting a lot of gas into the engine.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-10-08 06:21
There shouldn't be any exhaust from the choke tube. The exhaust cross over only heats the air in the tube chamber.
Yeah, all I've ever seen is a blind hole that the tube fits into.
But I haven't seen a Y block intake up real close in decades, just the blind choke tube holes in exhaust manifolds.
The choke heater tube goes all the way from the left side of the manifold ( with the mushroom shaped filter/noise damper element) to the right side where the choke heater line connects.
The tube in the manifold passes through the exhaust crossover channel. there must be no leak into the exhaust system! it just sucks fresh air from the mushroom intake, which is heated by the exhaust crossover channel. on my 4bl manifold the choke tube was rusted out inside the manifold.
Eugene, make sure you have the right 2100. I had huge problems with idle on mine because it came from a wrong application ( believe AMC or Dodge truck). Important thing is, that Ford 2bl had a seperate remote vent, for the fuel bowl which opens at idle. if your carb does not have that, it will get extremely lean in idle to the point where engine stalls. therefore you would need to enrich the mixture by backing out the idle mix screws, possibly causing black spark plugs. Just an idea.
Let's see a pic of carb w/o air cleaner on top !
Peculiar that you can't see anything on the plugs concerning the water- should have surface rust or dampness on it if there is a coolant leak problem. Maybe your carb/ intake gaskets is totally off and you are having so much condensed water because of a huge vacc leak ?
The 2100 is not original. Doing some cross referencing when i got the first rebuild kit from Mikes Carbs a couple years ago, determined it was an early 70's 2100. Its got the choke pull off valve on the air horn behind the opening. Venturi is 1.23. Jets are 55. I did have to roll the idle screws out about 3 turns instead of the 1.5, and i still really couldnt get it to idle smooth below 550-600/rpm when in park. Those tubes in front of the choke plate open to the top of the bowl.
Just last week this thing was going pretty good. It started on the first or second crank every time.
Dwell was running at 26, between 6-8 advanced initial time, vacuum was at 18 inches, idle dropping to 500 in drive, trans shifted smooth. Drove it around the block several times. Had it running and idling normal in the driveway sunday morning, later that evening, ...junk.
Today, threw a carb kit back in the 2100, checked the head torque (although cold, cause it dont want to run). Messed around for hours trying to get it to idle. Still doesnt want to. After several tries, it'll fire up, if i keep the rpms up it'll run, but if i let off, after a second up to half a minute, it'll just dead stop, almost like it was turned off.
Will a head gasket leak cause it to completely kill off?
I went as far as to pull the pipes back from the exhaust headers to see it there was any direct h2o evidence, ..nothing.
Not excited about pulling the heads, so i'd like to be sure its for a reason. I'd hate to have some strange carb and elec issues instead.
Plan on trying to run the whole tuning deal tomorrow, but head gaskets are still on speed dial.
The Ford Autolite carbs are about as simple as you can get. They worked just fine until they started having to add lots of features to satisfy the new federal emission standards of the 1970's.
Having to turn the idle mixture screws out three full turns is a sign that it's very lean (assuming you do not have a vacuum leak). A very lean engine will also have idling surge problems like described when you drop it into drive at a stop.
I worked at a Ford dealership during the late 60's and early 70's as the emission changes were arriving. I was one of five tech's that solely did tune up and electrical work at this large dealership. We did many modifications to these new car carbs to help with severe driveability problems. Fortunately these were the early days of emission testing and we were able to get by, since we were not required to pass any sniffer tests yet.
Take a small number drill set, and measure the very small brass tubes at the bottom of the venture booster. You can pull the booster and carb top, while the carb is installed on the engine. DO NOT MOVE THE THROTTLE SHAFT, because the accelerator weight is retained only by the booster bolt you will be removing. The mixture tubes will measure about .020". What ever they measure, take that number and go up a couple of thousandths (maybe a 10% increase). It will improve your idle mixture, and get you back to the standard one and one half turns out on the mixture screws. All your doing is rejetting the "idle circuit" a little richer.
Make sure you have the distributor connected to venturi vacuum, and not manifold vacuum.
As with most things, diagnosis is the hard part, the fix is usually easy, after you figure out exactly what's needed.
first hand info from John !
I can only add that I had serious problems with idle mixture before I got it running nicely!
I do not see any provision for the additional fuel bowl vent. As I mentioned before, my carb was plugged for another application and it would always stall as soon as the engine warmed up and got off the fast idle cam. I must add that I have a Holley 2300.
Thanks John, thats some good stuff to know, i'd definitely like to get this running smoother at idle, ....right now i'd settle for getting it to start and idle like it was, ...dang. Working on acquiring some wire gauge bits. I agree, finding why it quit running is the elusive part.
G, on this autolite, the front of the choke plate has "tubes" that go straight to the bowl, they open above the gasket and the gasket has an opening over the float.
So, will a head gasket cooling leak completely kill a running engine?, and if so, shouldnt there be enough liquid to see it at the exhaust manifold exits?
The Autolite carb numbers are reference to CFM so a 1.23 should be OK except it's a smog era design as John said.
Number = CFM
.98 = 190
1.01 = 240
1.02 = 245
1.08 = 287
1.14 = 300
1.21 = 351
1.23 = 356
1.33 = 424
Very strange how you would have that much water in the exhaust and nothing coming out of the headers. Something off the wall but with that much water in the exhaust maybe a baffle in the muffler rusted out and broke loose blocking it, saw that happen on a friends Caddy one time, took us weeks to find the problem.
The pipes and muffler is probably the only thing i didnt take off the car.
But if theres a leak somewhere around the head i should have some water coming out of somewhere, correct?
I'd feel more enthusiastic about tearing the top of the engine off if there was a faucet type situation happening.
Losing that much water out of the tail pipe would show up as a water loss in the radiator also, is it going down? It would also be putting air bubbles in the radiator water if something like a blown head gasket of cracked head/block, have you watched it without the cap on?
Do you have small kids who play with a garden hose? :003:
Just a thought from a guy who doesn't know diddly about this stuff........any chance the water is coming from the gas tank/bad gas
x2! As far as I know Ethanol wants to hold water, so if your mixture is utterly rich, your engine burns lots of alcohol also which in case could cause lots of water coming from the xhaust, no ?
I just looked at your video. How much has this vehicle been run after getting it running again? Perhaps, condensation has built into the exhaust system and is just being expelled. Has the entire exhaust system been allowed to get fully to operating temp recently? I know, I'm making a stretch here but I've seen cars run a steady stream of water out of the exhaust when pulling away from a stop. I wouldn't tear into the engine until after the entire exhaust has been at operating temp for awhile, but that's just me.
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2019-10-09 10:47
x2! As far as I know Ethanol wants to hold water, so if your mixture is utterly rich, your engine burns lots of alcohol also which in case could cause lots of water coming from the xhaust, no ?
See! I knew it was from the damn corn syrup :003: I've had cars sit for months that it didn't effect but that would depend on climate also. More humid climate would absorb more then a dry climate. Ethanol fuel can go through phase separation also, I've been testing that ( 10% ). In my dry climate I have fuel four months old that isn't showing separation yet that I can see.. KILL THE CORN
Both the Autolite in your photo, and the Holley in Guenter's photo are from the same early 1970's emission era. They both were modified by the factory to eliminate the float bowel from being vented directly to the atmosphere like all previous carbs were from day one. They were forced to do this to reduce the evaporative emissions.
Both carbs have their float bowels vented "inside the air horn" into the air cleaner. The external vents were blocked off, and is nicely shown in Guenter's Holley photo. The good news, the evaporative fumes are sucked into the engine and are reburned (like a PCV valve). The bad news, is that when you shut off a hot engine, with the hood closed, in 120 degree weather like in Arizona, the gasoline in the sealed float bowel percolates into the engine, flooding it and making for hard hot starts.
If you install the thick air horn air cleaner gasket, then drill a small 5/32" hole angled back towards the air horn in the carb top plate, you will have a externally vented carb just like they were originally built.
You need to figure out where the excessive water is coming from before you start doing some of this fine tuning.
Good hunting, John
I agree with Terry's point, get the exhaust system up to operating temperature, and leave the radiator cap loose to check for any air bubbles coming from the radiator water. Lot's of moisture can collect inside the pipes and mufflers. This is especially true in a vehicle that is not daily driven.
Only pull the heads after you have convinced yourself that the heads/gaskets are leaking.
Considering that you are in Louisiana I would lean toward the water being condensation in the exhaust.
Regarding the running bad:
1. Did you try replacing the power valve?
2. Have you verified that the float and needle/seat are working properly and not flooding?
3. Have you verified that the accelerator pump diaphragm isn't blown?
4. Do you see excess fuel dribbling from the boosters while running or just after shut down (don't put your face directly over the carburetor while running 😬)
James
Ok, first thing this morning, since the pipes were still pulled back, i took a couple blue shop towels and wrapped them around short rods and stuck them between the exhaust manifolds and the pipes. Cranked it up and it ran for about 45 seconds and died. Not a speck of water anywhere. Thats this video. Rpm's are way too high because this is one of the longest runs and I hadnt been able to adjust anything.
https://youtu.be/KyAwJoFN9GA
So at this point I'm ruling out leaky heads, at least until something becomes overly obvious. No bubbles in radiator and it is not losing volume. Not planning on pulling the heads at this time.
Im now tracking down why its cutting out.
I did tests on the ignition circuits. Only thing out of specs, per the book, was the resistor. Book says ohms should be between 1.3-1.4, mines running at 2.6 aprox. Replacement on the way. Will a bad resistor kill the engine like this?
The carb has a new power valve, accelerator pump, and the float is right at the recommended 29/64th while on the car. Idle has to be a bit high to keep it running momentarily. Idle screws are out 2 turns right now. I did notice drops of gas off the venturi turbine tubes. Took some video of that, dont know if its visible in the video. It started dropping a lot then stuttered to a stop. Nothing seems to be dripping after it stops. It doesnt want to start for a few minutes afterwards though.
https://youtu.be/yzbz3UIuvqs
Car has not been run a lot since it got going. Round the block a couple times and idling in the drive for a few minutes at a time. All this over only the last 2 weeks or so. Not a drop of water out the tailpipe all day today.
I told the kids to stay away from the car with the hose too, ...just for good measure.
Doubtful that it's the resistor, they either work or don't, when bad the spiral wire breaks. Almost sounds like it is flooding, it just takes that short period of time to overfill the bowl, or possibly the fuel pump is putting out too much pressure for the float/needle seat. Maybe the spring clip that holds the float in place came loose?
Just put new seat and needle in yesterday. Took the air horn off again today to check the float level. Looks good. But I have had a rash of defective new parts lately. I could put the old one back in to see if it helps...
Quote from: Swank on 2019-10-09 18:41
Just put new seat and needle in yesterday. Took the air horn off again today to check the float level. Looks good. But I have had a rash of defective new parts lately. I could put the old one back in to see if it helps...
I've run them with the airhorn off to watch, be very careful if you do. A lot of new parts can be crap, I just had a fuel pump failure on a FE, probably less the 300 miles..
I think at this point you can rule out a head gasket problem. condensation was probably mostly collected from many short start ups. like some stated, humidity must be high in La and that would be natural to collect so much water.
simply try running it without the resistor for a minute. surely the coil will warm up faster but shouldn't get damaged from that. if it runs better in the beginning, it shows that you have a weak spark ( and only get a better running engine with having high spark with a 9V coil running on 12V). if it quits earlier than before, it shows that the problem is in your coil ( heating up and shortcutting earlier because of maybe a faulty winding).
From my experience though I have to say that it is often several different problems interacting. I wouldn't be surprised if you were having ignition and fuel mixture problems at the same time.
What spark plugs are you running ? They may look good outside but oh-so-many-times have I found faulty spark plugs in all kinds of vehicles. With all that rich mixture they might be fouled inside the ceramic insulator.
I suggest trying Champion. I have made good experience with them. And DO check the spark plug gaps!
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-10-09 17:54Doubtful that it's the resistor, they either work or don't, when bad the spiral wire breaks. Almost sounds like it is flooding ...
I agree. The dummies that put my Ranchero together just eliminated the ignition resistor for the points ignition & it still ran with no noticeable problem except for a very hot coil.
I didn't even notice it was missing for a while. (https://advrider.com/f/styles/advrider_smilies/shog.gif)
The gas dripping into the carb just ain't right.
Disconnect the fuel line at the carb. Connect a quality pressure gauge on the line and start the engine. What's the pressure? Too high, or too low is a problem. 6# is in the ball park.
While the fuel line is disconnected, push a section of hose over the line and run the hose into a can. Restart the engine and check the fuel for fuel volume flow.
This basically checks your fuel system from the tank to the carb. You need both pressure AND volume. For example, you can get pressure without much volume when the filter is plugged, or the tank has a restriction.
Don't waste your time using anything but a real pressure test gauge. Those small 2" glycerin filled gauges are not accurate.
Update: ...its a runner, ...and im now able to field strip an autolite 2100 in under two and a half minutes.
It was apparently one of those days where everything fell down the stairs at the same time.
Venturi tubes were already measuring aprox .028 so i didnt mess with those. Unhooked the tank, ran new gas straight from a bottle through the pump, pressure was good, carb not leaking anymore. Still running like junk. The new power valve spring was very soft and i eventually put the old valve back in and that seemed to stop the flow out of the venturi turbines. Dont know if that was it, or if I accidently got the float correct at the same time, cause i messed with the float for too many hours also, along with the idle screws. No matter, it was hard to start, and if it did, would only run at high idle for less than 30 seconds, then sputter, or just shutdown.
So i gave up, had some cold snacks, and put the valence on instead.
Came back and decided to check spark since i felt i had exhausted the carb options. Had a steady dizzy signal.
https://youtu.be/h65X-o3pfrY
But decided to check the arc. All sketchy.
https://youtu.be/cEX-z9EdO8E
Did basic test on the coil and related wiring. All seemed good. Checked all the connections through the distributor, threw in a condenser, brushed up the points real fast, and checked again. Much better.
https://youtu.be/BHaTIwv9dzI
Started right up. I set the idle down some and had some more cold snacks. Half hour later, still idling and not a drop coming out of the exhaust.
So last sunday, between noon and 5, it started dumping what seemed like gallons of water out the exhaust, started leaking gas out the carb all over the manifold, and blew a condenser.
After a week, im glad to be back at square one, and that i didnt pull the heads.
https://youtu.be/z-m3Ze37m_8
(It was late when i got it running, videos dark)
Thanks for all the input and suggestions, im sure i'll need more soon.
I'm glad you got it sorted out!
So glad for you, that it's up an running again !!!! awesome ! :001:
Can't wait to see your 57 out on the streets! it will be a head turner for sure.
here is just a reminder of what I said a few days earlier. Not trying to brag, but it took me years, if not decades to accept the fact that sometimes oh-so-many things start going wrong in an old car incidentally at the same time.
I think this really is something that needs considered everytime we run into trouble with our old cars. it is my troubleshooting credo, if you will.
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2019-10-10 04:11
From my experience though I have to say that it is often several different problems interacting. I wouldn't be surprised if you were having ignition and fuel mixture problems at the same time.
Heres a general rule I live by: When you think it's carburetor it's the Ignition. If you think it the ignition it's the carb :003: Be suspicious of new condensers, the are Chinese junk :005:
Soon as i came across the sketchy spark i thought, well, G did say it could be more than one problem. Guess im still in denial that new parts can be junk, seeing how that condenser had about 30 minutes of run time on it before it gave up the ghost. Dang.
I have had new condensers dead right out of the box. This the reason I went to Pertronix.
Thinking about the carb: I don't know what the base mounting surface looks like on yours but I tried to use one from the late 60's and there was no way to get the carb mounted to the Y manifold without a huge vacuum leak, the carb had a space that over hung the mounting surface on the manifold.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-10-15 16:14
Heres a general rule I live by: When you think it's carburetor it's the Ignition. If you think it the ignition it's the carb :003: Be suspicious of new condensers, the are Chinese junk :005:
I agree that it's nearly always the ignition that causes running problems, not the carb.
Tried to start a car that had sat for years but was getting nothing. No spark. Points looked good & sanded 'em a little, still no spark. All the other ignition stuff seemed ok. After trying everything else I put a multimeter on the closed points & got zero continuity. Sanded 'em a bunch more but still no continuity. Replaced 'em & all was well. Just weird.
I'm pretty sure that these were the Chevy points that I had very easily adapted to the Ford distributor in order to get their externally adjustable dwell setting. Works great, makes it so easy to keep on top of the point setting.
Hardest part was drilling the hole for the allen wrench into the side of the Ford distributor while it was still installed in the van's engine.
Maybe getting no spark there is what I get for using brand X parts in a Ford. :002:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-10-16 07:41
Thinking about the carb: I don't know what the base mounting surface looks like on yours but I tried to use one from the late 60's and there was no way to get the carb mounted to the Y manifold without a huge vacuum leak, the carb had a space that over hung the mounting surface on the manifold.
The early 70's autolite fits pretty good on the manifold. The hole diameter between the little riser and the intake might be a little different, but the overall footprint is pretty much on.
Quote from: Tom S on 2019-10-17 13:54
I agree that it's nearly always the ignition that causes running problems, not the carb.
I'm pretty sure that these were the Chevy points that I had very easily adapted to the Ford distributor in order to get their externally adjustable dwell setting. Works great, makes it so easy to keep on top of the point setting.
Hardest part was drilling the hole for the allen wrench into the side of the Ford distributor while it was still installed in the van's engine.
Maybe getting no spark there is what I get for using brand X parts in a Ford. :002:
Tom
That's a real cool idea. I have to admit that those points are easier to set the dwell. Jay
UPDATE:
Ok, back to messing with the 2100, because it has a bit of hesitation coming off of idle.
Ive got 10 degrees initial timing, 27 dwell, 19-20 inches of vacuum, and vacuum advance is working. Starts right up, but while in idle, will miss every once in a while.
Found yesterday that while idling, i can turn the passenger side idle mix screw all the way in with no effect on the rpms. Both were set aprox 3 turns out. Driver side will kill the car with the passenger side backed out pretty far. Im assuming pass side has no fuel flow. (Which is probably why screws had to be turned out so far originally)
Last time i had this thing apart, i did notice that one of the emulsion tubes has a hairline crack going down between the holes on one side of that tube. I decided to ignore that part, and put it back together.
Would that crack stop this side from flowing through the idle circuit, or do you think the idle circuit is just stopped up?
Not sure if the crack would effect it. I would be looking at a plugged idle air bleed, or idle fuel passage. Sometimes removing the adjustment needle and a good blast of air will clear it.
Can you do that with the carb still on the engine (without making a massive mess)?, ...or should it come off?
Have you checked the intake manifold gaskets, I recently had problems maintaining idle speed,setting timing, mixture adjustments, I too went thru the carbs and distributor. the engine ran OK but car would actually vibrate around 2K to 2.5K when driving and exhaust sound was very raucous and would backfire occasionally. Vacuum was around 15 but at this altitude thats almost maximum. Finally pulled the intake and the the gasket at the RR. port had sucked in and was sucking air. Runs great now.
Watch the video, may be of some help. The passages are so small the littlest piece of crap will block them. I use welding tip cleaners to clear them.
https://www.carburetor-parts.com/Idle-Circuit_ep_1795.html
UPDATE
Update from the last idle screw deal. Actually had fixed it a little while back, but forgot to leave a state-of-the-union follow-up.
I had pulled the venturi and found, as stated here previously, a small piece of crap, stopping up one of the emulsion tubes. Im always careful to keep this thing tidy, so not sure what it was or how it got in there, ...but whatever, that idle screw works again.
Since that fix, I've been able to put a few miles on it and get everything nice and warmed up.
Found I was having hard starts while hot. For cold starts, step on it twice, and it'll kick off before you have a chance to let go of the key. But if it sat for 10 minutes after running, it was cranking for 15-20 seconds and slowly stumbling into running. Been doing that for the last week or so. It would crank hot right after you shut it off, but if it sat between 5 and 20 minutes it just rumbled around.
Did a quick "hot hard start" search, and the easiest least invasive solution I found was to lower the fuel float a notch.
That completely worked, at least so far it has.
Had it nice and hot today, waited 15 minutes several different times to start it back up, starter would only get about 3 or 4 grunts in before it cranked each time.
Having a little more confidence that I'll get back home, makes taking this thing out a better time.
You're learning the skills to "get it back home"......that's something I never had and why I went new school with my drivetrain. Honestly never had the desire to learn it.....so kuddos to you for doing so!
great news !
Another trick that can often help with hot starting issues is slowly depressing the accelerator pedal ( not pumping) to 1/2 or 3/4 throttle and start with pedal in that position, of course let go as soon as she fires up. some cars will only start that way when hot and its even sometimes mentioned in the manuals.