Hello,
I contacted Rich Muise about looking at some photos of a car that I am considering buying but I can't send them to him apparently, so I thought maybe I would post them here. Here is the background on the car:
California car-parked in a barn for approx 25 years.
He has some parts to get it running-rad, carb, dist,
No major rust just surface. Not sure about the rockers though
No major damage, just some shallow dents on the left side.
I think this is a Fairlane 500 Town Victoria with 3 on the tree and 312
Ext color-white, interior not sure
From the pics tell me what you think. My goal is to get it drivable and safe for now, it will get a full restoration when I retire (which is why I am getting it). Hopefully the pics come through and I have more. I know I have to dig into the following right off the bat:
fuel system
brakes
fluids changed several times to flush things out. I know they are going to leak like a sieve at first
steering/suspension
Mike
Looks like a nice car. Have them take Pictures of the engine compartment
The underside of the doors and the rockers. Also pics of the upper corners under the dash.
Also ask for photos of the truck area at the corner where the rear panels are above the wheel area.
I just tore down a Santa Barbara car and had a bit more rust that usual. But not totally thrashed.
As far as the engine ask them it it can be turned of know IG had been run. Seeing the rocker covers in the rear seat seems suspect.
Here is the trunk shot he sent me. The engine has not run in 25 years and it has t-bird covers on it now. I will see if I can get some more pics. It is only two hours away so a road trip may be in order.
Mike
Thanks for posting the pics here, Mike. First and most important, yes, a road trip is absolutely in order. Only two hours, I'm grinning because I've driven 400+ miles ea way many times just looking for parts, lol. Could be a real pretty car when done, and from the pics, it definitely has possibilities. "No major rust"? There's probably a 90% chance you will find some..remember, rust almost always starts on the inside and works it's way out, so what looks minor may be the tip of the iceberg. I'm for sure not trying to discourage you, but the majority of us here have had rust issues to deal with...these cars are 60+ years old. For example, if you enlarge the pic you show of the front end and look closely at the headlight surround, you will see what appears to be bubbles. That's on of the most common areas to rust on our '57's and a difficult area to repair because of the poor quality of the repo replacements. The dogleg under the side of the windshield is another area. Rockers? Not that hard to replace, but the only way to see how far inside the replacement work is going to go is to get a good look under the car...very hard to do with pics because you really need to get under there and poke around with a screwdriver or whatever in the areas behind the floor support ends where they are spot welded to the inner rockers. Those areas usually got packed up with mud and road debris. That front floor mat, to me, doesn't look like it's been sitting in that car for 25+ years, so maybe hiding something? The front toeboards and floorboards were common areas to rust because of a poor cowl drain design. Also, the rear foot wells. A look under the car in those areas will help a lot, but pulling the old floormats back to the metal would be good too.if the owner would let you do that.
If you find the rust issues that are normal for our cars, then I'd be negotiating a lower price for the car. If it's solid, that will save you years and thousands of dollars, so with that in mind, the asking price isn't too bad......for example, cost aside, it took me 3 1/2 years to get mine rust free.
Thanks Rich. I will definitely be getting as far as I can under the car. I do have a question and it is probably terminology. I know where the Outer rockers are but not sure what the Inner rockers that have been referred to here are. I am thinking they are the support brace that is perpendicular to the outer rockers.
I have been reading a lot of the tech posts here and am aware of the poor drainage problem. I am hoping that it being a barn find from the Central Valley where it doesn?t rain much this car escaped that. Well one can dream I guess. And since he is only asking 3800 OBO I can deal with surface rust. Any cancer may be a deal breaker as I don?t have the facilities to deal with that.
I forgot to mention the engine turns over so if that is the case then I am hoping nothing is broken. I might get very very lucky and be able to fire her up and she will run fine-fingers crossed. Thanks for all of the tips and places to look at. I will bring a clipboard and a camera. Keep chiming in with other thoughts and ideas people.
Mike
I would also check the drop offs on both sides of the trunk. As seen in you post #2 under the 2x6 on the right and under the jacks on the left. They always seem to collect "stuff" which plugs the drain holes. There is a brace for the floor near the rear of the trunk. The rear body mount bolts extend through it and the rear of the frame. Mine had rust near each end just outside of the body mounts.
On that car the inner rocker refers to the vertical flat plate on the back side of the outer rocker. The floor braces Rich refers to are welded to the inner rocker and bottom of the floor pan. The floor braces at their outer ends are where dirt collects and rusts out over time. That car looks like a good basis for a restoration. Don't be afraid to tackle the rusted metal. You're going to be retired. Get a wire welder and learn a new skill!
The car is supposed to have a come with a T Bird engine. How do I confirm that-aside from the vin#?
Mike
Junior Colleges and trade schools offer welding classes all the time. There is one this March near me for welding with both MIG & TIG. I have a MIG and will be taking both. Cost is $100 for each. Go for it!!! :003:
Learning to mig weld is simple compared to other forms of welding and will open all kinds of doors for you. my main advice there is avoid the flux core wire and get a welder set up for gas, which is just a shielding gas actually, not flammable. Almost impossible to get a good weld with the flux core. The only time I would use that is if I had to weld something outside on a windy day and had no way to block off the wind from the welding.
Thunderbird engines are what the Ford designation was for at least the 312s (not sure about the smaller 292) that came in all fords, not exclusive to thunderbirds.
Learning to do as much as you can YOURSELF will give a self satisfaction that is hard to compare to anything else. There is so much help from knowledgeable guys on the forums nowadays, especially this one, you can learn to do almost anything with their advise if you are not afraid to ask questions. When I started "fixing up" my car, I didn't know how to weld, had never built a car before, and in fact had never modified anything on any car in my lifetime. I am so proud of the fact I built mine 100% myself, I still smile when I look at it after finishing it 5 years ago. I couldn't have done it without the help I got here. I can pretty much guarantee whatever it is you want to do, someone here has done it and is willing, if not anxious, to help!!
GO FOR IT!!!
The welding doesn?t scare me too much. It is welding new rockers in while on my back. I won?t have access to a garage as the Model A resides there.
Mike
If the rocker covers on the back seat are the ones off the engine, it is a 312. On the body tag, look for the first letter of the vin number. A 312 would have a "D" , "E", or "F" designation. John
Maybe it`s just the lighting, but to me, it looks to have had a rather poor repaint at one point in it`s life. Looks like overspray of the VIN tag on the drivers door jam, as well as the door weatherstrip rubber. Did they say anything about a repaint, and if so, when? A repaint could hide a bunch of ills underneath.
Unless your specifically looking for a 4dr I would save your money and put it towards a 2dr. It seems a little over priced for what it is.
Got more pics. Odo is showing 32k and there is ?some? record of having that mileage when it got parked. Rust on the rust I can see isn?t too bad and the drain holes look clear. It is possible this car has a OD as well.
Mike
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see where you would need to replace the rocker panel that you took pictures of. I think I may see one spot that looks suspect.
From the pics they look good. Well at least what I can see of them. The doors look decent as well. Can anyone decode the data from the pink slip? I figured the top half out:
312 engine
1957
Built in Long Beach
And it is a fairlane
I just can?t figure out what TNSDFL5 stands for
Thanks,
Mike
imho, that looks to be a very interesting and promising project car, and it looks to be very original to start with. if what I am seeing inside the door jambs is inca gold ( pale yellow) og paint, then this is an amazing color combo with the green cloth bench seats. also I know many guys don't like 4 drs, but, this is just my personal opinion- a 1957 4dr Victoria Town Sedan is a very clean and pretty design, especially concerning all the chrome, ss trim, gold anodized side panels and said yellow paint and green interior. so this car was striking in original form, which is a good point in restoring it back to og. it is also a 312, manual, Overdrive !!! very, very nice combo to have. also an early 57, with the old style ashtray. If you are more inclined towards building engines, you could mabye build/overhaul this next to your Model A in the garage ?
In any case, all above said, if a car hasn't been driven in 25 years, and it probably even has been parked for mechancal issues. You will need to adress many, many different things. and even if you are just going for a driver quality restoration or sympathetic repair this will set you back many hundreds if not thousand of hours of labor and a lot of $. you would expect all the seals need replacement and obviously some or most of the interior. add tires, engine parts, brake stuff, ball joints, rubber bushings...you get the picture, nothing is cheap these days anymore. So just prepared for that. imo it doesn't matter at all if the base car costs 3800 or 2800, because you will be spending MUCH MORE than that in parts, labor, paint aso.... So you need to FIRST decide if you are willing into getting into all of that, and THEN negotiate the seller. you don't want to end up with a horrible, overwhelming project, only because you got it cheap. I think you get the picture.
On a side note, the rockers don't look too bad either. Personally Id' rather have a surface rusted original car with little to no zero previous repair, than a nicely painted, but cobbled together and filled with mud shiny car. Since this is located only 2 hrs from you, I would also recommend personal inspection, but be prepared, once you see it in the flesh, you will like it even better. It's a bout the 57 Ford lure.... :002: :003:
Good luck with the project and please keep us updated.
btw, the body type code on the title does not match any of the Ford codes, IIRC. you will have to inspect the original VIN tag that is on the a post ( which appears to be painted over), but the letters are stamped and you may be able to read them without scraping paint.
On some of the VIN tags you will find information right down to the transmission and rear and ratio. they are all coded letters.
if your car was inca gold originally the paint code will contain a Y, or YE if it was inca gold/colonial white. the green fabric should have the AS code. the model designation should be a 58B, and code a T ( for Town sedan). It should have an L for Long Beach assmembly.
D is 312 and 2 would be an overdrive manual.
hope that helps.
Ok, after some more looking I figured out the car is a Town Sedan and not a Town Victoria. What is the difference besides the rear doors and numbers produced?
Thank you,
Mike
Town Victoria is a hardtop. Town Sedan is a chrome post.
Ron.
Thank you. I have a place to store it now if I Buy it. So getting a bit more excited😀. We will see what shape it is in on sat.
Mike
If you do get it, hopefully they have a title, right? Either way try to keep the black plates. If its non-op'd or old registration, with title that should be cool.
Or use a registration service or AAA DMV. It will save you on not having to get the black plates or YOM plates.
Yep have to keep the plates. It is in non-op right now and will stay that way for for awhile as I work on her if I get her. Although at some point I will have to switch her over to do test runs :smtree2:
Mike
Clear title before you buy it and Don't spend a dime until you get it registered in your name
Ok...update. Looked at the car and she is a solid California car with no cancer that I could see. The rockers, up inside of the dash where the drain lines go. Floors are good up front, trunk appears solid as well. The carb is off but at least he covered it up with some rags so no rodents. It will need bodywork-not sure what the previous own hit. I mean it has some weird damage-not all that bad though. The engine is gunked up big time but i saw valves moving when he cranked it over.
He did boil out the tank-good and he bought a new rad for it. He has the carb and air cleaner for it plus hub caps and some other pieces. All rubber is toast due to age as expected. For options it has a 312, tinted glass, and electric wipers. So will think about it-what are your thoughts on the engine?
Mike
The heads don't look as bad as some I've seen but they look really dry. Hard telling if thats from sitting for a long time or if it isn't oiling. Determining engine condition visually is impossible, you have to get it fired up.
I have a car that sat for many years and someone forced it to start. It runs but is very low on power and has varying low compression on each cylinder. It seems to me to be a best idea to disassemble and overhaul the engine as a first job
Quote from: bwayne on 2021-02-21 12:33
I have a car that sat for many years and someone forced it to start. It runs but is very low on power and has varying low compression on each cylinder. It seems to me to be a best idea to disassemble and overhaul the engine as a first job
I have to ask, How many miles have been put on the car since being taken out of retirement? Often, the rings are stuck and need to be run awhile to free up. Sometimes, they never free up and reseat. I don't understand what you mean by forced to start. Isn't every engine forced to start when the starter is engaged? I apologize for coming off as smart a$$.
Hi Terry,
It hasn?t run since about 1980, except for a few seconds when he poured gas in the carb. Not being a smart ass at all. That is why I am asking the questions. To determine if I want to take on this project at this point in time. I just had him crank it over to see if the valves moved and 90% did, which is a good sign. I am just worried about having to dump about 7-8k into her right off the bat. Just wasn?t planning on that.
Mike
an overhaul is a lot less expensive than a rebuild. Definitely not $7000
In my opinion, if the car is what you really want and it does look like a solid car from Cali I would buy it. It?s complete , all the hard parts to find are on it . Yes it will take time and money to make it what you want .
You need to think about what you really want and what you want out of it . We all will give you opinion but you must make the decisions that are good for you.
I can't believe I am saying this, but as they say " buy one done and have some fun".
I have an Explorer that sat for 10 years without being started. (Rich, Alvin and Terry have seen it) I pulled all the plugs, squirted each cylinder with some 30w oil (it's what I had at the time) and let the car sit for a couple of days.
Then I crawled under the nose with a breaker bar and a socket, and moved the crank pulley very slowly about 1/4 inch each direction alternating back and forth until I had gone that far only 10 times each.
After that I slowly increased my distance back and forth by about 1 inch increments until I got to about 1/4 of a full revolution. After that I took it full revolutions in operational direction in a very slow rotation for about 10 revolutions. Then I put my 1/2 inch ratchet on it and took about 10 rounds with that.
New plugs went in, and fresh gas in the cleaned out fuel tank, and the fuel line had new filter. She made about 3-4 revolutions and fired up like she had been running 10 minutes earlier...not 10 years ago. Smoked for about 5 minutes until all the 30w was gone, has NEVER smoked since. I put 100k on that little lady in 50 months. Then I bought my truck and started this move! She still fires up when I turn the key though...once the move is done...she will be back on the daily driver duty.
Now...I know that the above is probably overkill on "waking" up the sleeping beast, and it took probably and hour to do the engine revolutions, but I am a bit anal, and this was not the first time I had done this to an engine. It has worked for me 3 times, never had a broken ring, and engines have run for a long time. If it doesn't work for you...you're out an hour...if it does work, you have saved an engine and the rebuild time, cost and annoyance! Good luck!
When I was a kid I spent 2 days "freeing" a flathead v8 that had sat under the eaves of a garage. The rings never did reseat but it ran well considering it used 6 quarts of oil per tank of gas. It is amazing what a little oil poured into the cylinders will do for initially lubing the cylinder walls.