I have seen several videos showing conversion of 4 door tri-5 Chevs into 2 doors. Sedans rather than hardtops, but they got me thinking that maybe I could save the 57 Missouri hardtop with the crushed roof by grafting a 58 roof on it. Appears to be the same roofline whether hardtop or 4 door in the Fairlane series. Same front and back glass also. Ribbed top on 58, but so what..
Or alternatively, use the 57 hardtop doors, door posts, quarter fronts and quarter glass to convert a very solid 58 4 door sedan (from Texas and stored indoors for decades, floors, rockers, trunk, quarter wheel lips all good) into either a 57 or 58 2 door hardtop.
Probably getting too old to finish yet another project, but could probably get it far enough along to show enough potential so somebody else could pick it up from there. And I still like welding anyway.. Still in Florida and just killing time at night since no cars here to fiddle with..
So has anyone seen any videos or threads that show either roof replacement on a 57 or 58 Ford, or conversion of a 4 door to a 2 door 57 or 58 Ford? If it can be done on the Chev's, I don't see why it could not be done with Fords? If not, why not?
The 57-58 quarters appear to be the same, except for the tail light provisions, roof profiles appear the same.. Doors the same except trim holes.. Am I overlooking any other potential complications?
The quarters are the same. Striping down a 57 quarter in the tail light area you will see a seam where the tail light housing area has a panel that shapes the inside portion of the tail light area.
The roof skins should inter change, not sure about the areas where the "flipper" goes. Removing the sealer in the gutter should show the spot welds and finding the spots on the front and rear pinches should be a breeze. I'd go with swapping roof skins if it was me......
skinning '57 Custom
It has been done already by a friend of mine. The problem is that l'm not computer savvy enough to search
the files to dig out the story. When Günter was here from Austria, l took him and showed the car to him.
A 57 Ford 4 door custom. was converted to a two door. I posted it here about 4 years ago.
I do remember that he moved the B posts back and installed 2dr custom front doors. Then he
used the back door skins to lengthen the rear quarter panels. The car came out beautiful.
Any thing is possable if you have the time and energy. In the late 90's & early 2000, I converted a 2drht into a convertable. I had a very rusty 57 convert and a fairly nice 2drht [ had been hit on pass. side] Put the hard top body on the convertable frame and went to cutting and welding from one to the other, it turned out great. You really can't tell it was a 2drht. I still have the car and love to drive it. I guess what I am saying if you want to try it go for it.
Quote from: Ecode70D on 2021-02-23 08:25
It has been done already by a friend of mine. The problem is that l"m not computer savvy enough to search
the files to dig out the story. When Guenter was here l took him and showed the car to him.
A 57 Ford 4 door custom. was converted to a two door. I posted it here about 4 years ago.
I do remember that he moved the B posts back and installed 2dr custom front doors. Then he
used the back door skins to lengthen the rear quarter panels. The car came out beautiful.
Yes, that is mostly what I have seen with the tri 5 Chevs. Rear door skins used to fill out front of quarters. Full Custom Garage did a 54 Olds 4 door int o a 2 door hardtop with quarter fronts and door posts off the same hardtop car the doors came off. I could probably do either method since I have both fairly complete bodies.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2021-02-23 07:22
The quarters are the same. Striping down a 57 quarter in the tail light area you will see a seam where the tail light housing area has a panel that shapes the inside portion of the tail light area.
The roof skins should inter change, not sure about the areas where the "flipper" goes. Removing the sealer in the gutter should show the spot welds and finding the spots on the front and rear pinches should be a breeze. I'd go with swapping roof skins if it was me......
Yes if it was just the roof skin it would be a little easier, but I have a rear window frame crushed almost to the deck lid, valance ahead of trunk lid slighttly bent in, trunk lid ruined and the windshield frame hit hard enough to crack the glass. If it is bent, it is very little though...
And the 57 is better documented for title purposes. Have a MO bill of sale for an auto from a dealer down there that should sail thru in MN. Have more 57 than 58 fenders, and the 57 is probably a slightly more sought-after car than a 58. But, I like them both.
But then again, the 58 has better floors and trunk. Near pristine compared to most projects. 57 needs some floor and trunk repairs, but not a lot. Dash and gauges much better in the 58. Have more 58 hoods than 57. Would need another 57 deck lid, but the 58 deck lid is perfect, as is the rear valance. No roof to mess with beyond the posts. Both front and rear 58 glass are tinted and good, although I could swap those along with the roof too...
All the suspension and steering are in a lot better shape on the 58, although that could be swapped over too.
But, that all seems like it would add up to a lot more time and work than putting the doors and posts, along with front of quarters on the 58. I could put 57 tail light housings and fenders on the 58 too, but that could complicate the title process since it has a 58 frame vin.
So, idk.. But I would kind of like save one or the other....
Quote from: alvin stadel on 2021-02-23 09:15
Any thing is possable if you have the time and energy. In the late 90's & early 2000, I converted a 2drht into a convertable. I had a very rusty 57 convert and a fairly nice 2drht [ had been hit on pass. side] Put the hard top body on the convertable frame and went to cutting and welding from one to the other, it turned out great. You really can't tell it was a 2drht. I still have the car and love to drive it. I guess what I am saying if you want to try it go for it.
Yes, my convertible was very rusty too, but I had a custom 4 door as parts car and I used cowl, some floor sections, new footwells all around, inner and outer rockers. Replaced doors, trunk lid with those from a salvage yard in ND. Bumpers, trim, just about everything except frame, windshield frame, top mechanism, tub area, and top half of quarters.
Lower half of quarters and frame mounts are new repro, lower valance under trunk off the custom as well as spare tire well and entire front clip. Tunnel from a retractable parts car, different dash and gauges.that I have not installed yet but have several, both 57 and 58. Have put a lot of work in it, but $1500 convertibles from the 50's are generally very rough cars.. I enjoy it though.
I have swapped 57 and 58 trunk floors. The only difference is the location of the bumper jack hold down tab which has to be
moved. The floors look the same.
When removing the panels, try to do it by drilling out the spot welds. The whole job is very easy. You will have a lot of fun
and self satisfaction with this swap knowing that you did it yourself.
It does give one a sense of satisfaction to take what some people consider beyond repair and bring it back to utility. Never suspected that when I took a high school metal shop course merely to fulfill a graduation requirement that it would stick with me permanently, eventually becoming a chosen and joyous distraction from a unrelated career and so complementary to my intense interest in old cars.
I did my 73 Mach clone replacement trunk and tail light panel taking out all the spotwelds and mimicking them as you suggest. Time-consuming but looks better when it is done that way, although nobody ever sees most of the work anyway due to carpeted floors and trunk mats. Body exterior panel repair requiring lots of rust repair or partial panel replacement and panel sectioning I think is even trickier, being it is what everyone sees and the tendency of larger repairs in low crown areas to cause warpage.
Been watching some Fitzee Fabrications you tube videos. That guy is good, not fast probably, but good. He can do so much with basic metalworking tools.
Repairing wheel arches:
https://youtu.be/mU46MpCXD3g
Making body mounts with basic tools:
https://youtu.be/bsP_bvQfOWw
Making rust replacement panels:
https://youtu.be/FZRuaT2obb4
He has a bunch of videos and I am amazed at how he can tackle just about anything on metal repair using mostly ordinary everyday tools.
Quote from: alvin stadel on 2021-02-23 09:15
Any thing is possable if you have the time and energy. In the late 90's & early 2000, I converted a 2drht into a convertable. I had a very rusty 57 convert and a fairly nice 2drht [ had been hit on pass. side] Put the hard top body on the convertable frame and went to cutting and welding from one to the other, it turned out great. You really can't tell it was a 2drht. I still have the car and love to drive it. I guess what I am saying if you want to try it go for it.
Well, looks like a long time ago I posted the prospect of doing a conversion of a 57 or 58 4 door into a 2 door.
But, recently while waiting for backordered EMS parts (rockers) for 56 Merc and also stymied waiting for mechanical parts for swapping a 455 Buick into a 56 Dodge 2 dr sedan, I went out and cut up the 58 Ford convertible parts car. I have almost the whole 58 convertible in pieces, but had stripped off all the unboltable parts years ago and stored them.
Have decided to try to make one of the very solid 58 four door sedans into a convertible. Since I have the "tub" with door posts I can probably just use patch panels for lower front quarter sections which are rusted on the convertible. Could probably use rear door section pieces if I had to, but the factory stuff is easier though maybe more rust repair involved.
Since the convertible perimeter frame was also very rusty and the 4 door frame is very good, decided to weld the X frame into the 4 door frame before cutting the top off. Ended up having to spend a week fixing up parts of the X frame anyway, but whatever. Solid and clean now.
Since the four door quarters and wheelwells are also very good, decided that I will leave as much of the original four door sheet metal as possible. Have not figured out how I will graft it all together yet, but where there is a will there is a way. Lots of cutting and welding no doubt. Feel free to make suggestions on grafting it together.
I have the whole 58 top mechanical parts, though front bow is really rough (tree fell on it). Have drilled out all the front sheet metal bow and straightened it in case I just can't find another. But that is pretty marginal to work with, so if anyone has a line on 57-58 front header bow and/or top of windshield frame from a convertible LMK.
Had thought about using the whole rear quarters from the convertible and grafting that in with the tub, but the sheet metal on the 4 door is a lot cleaner and one side of the convertible quarter has rust holes up around the Fairlane 500 trim, so decided the best approach is probably to keep as much of the four door sheet metal as possible instead. Hopefully that was not a mistake, but I think it will work.
I have a couple retractable parts cars that have the same floors as a convertible and at minimum can use the taller floor tunnel common to retractable and convertible to allow room to get the X frame where it is supposed to be. And having the 57 convertible to compare with also, has me reasonably confident.
I have laid eyes and hands on the '57 Convertible Alvis made. It is a superb piece of work that unless one was told otherwise, no one would ever know was not a convertible from the factory. Lines are spot on and everything lines up as it should. Bet he will be a lot of help for you with info. Good luck!!!
Quote from: mustang6984 on 2021-09-13 00:37
I have laid eyes and hands on the '57 Convertible Alvis made. It is a superb piece of work that unless one was told otherwise, no one would ever know was not a convertible from the factory. Lines are spot on and everything lines up as it should. Bet he will be a lot of help for you with info. Good luck!!!
Someone told me that there are guys on this site with a lot of talent and I believe it.
Yes, that input would be useful with respect to locating all the "tub" components in particular. I have left those components still all welded together thinking that should preserve all the dimensions of those parts in relation to one another, but makes it complicated to figure out how to install all together that way.
But once the metal top is off the car and back glass is out maybe it will become apparent to me. Also the convertible and retractable used different and less flexible body mounts, so will be interested to see if he recalls how he dealt with that.
Not sure if he used a whole convertible frame installed under a hardtop body or altered the hardtop frame by welding in the big X member either, but I am doing the latter cuz the 58 convertible perimeter frame was rusted beyond repair, plus the 58 sedan frame and VIN are already titled and licensed.
I still had to replace multiple parts of the big X frame because of rust and PO clearancing for more exhaust pipe clearance and more E brake cable clearance. Some of the same X frame repairs were needed on my 57 convertible.
Also replaced both sides of vertical connectors in the rear of X frame with new metal almost twice as thick and re-welded and strengthened the front of X frame too cuz 58 factory welding of frame was apparently just as crappy as 57 factory frame welding. Looked like they ran out of welding gas and just kept welding anyway, very porous.. Should be very strong now though.
Here is my unsuspecting victim. Bought for $800 about 15 years ago to use the front clip and power seat base, 352 Interceptor and CM, PS, PB for retractable parts. Everyone I have ever told that to (particularly my youngest son) has freaked about it cuz it is <100k mile original car, good front clip, bumpers, good floors and trunk, titled with collector plates. Runs but water pump now leaking and brakes are sketchy.
It has some big hail dents on the roof and some also on the trunk lid, plus some added holes in the top from a rooftop luggage rack being bolted on it sometime in the past. It is a MN car, but was told the first owner never drove it winters and has only been yard driven since I got it.
Looking in the trunk you can see why I want to retain the original wheel tubs and as much other original metal from the 4 door as possible.. I believe the wheel tubs are identical to convertible with the exception of the lip on the top of the well being hammered over at the factory for mechanical folding top mechanism frame clearance.
Rear floor pans are different and tunnel height inside car are quite different so I will have to cut some good metal anyway for X frame clearance. Back seat from 58 convertible is pretty far gone, but I have retractable back seats too which I have heard are the same except the vertical angle. Guess I will find out.
I do not envy you a bit. I used a 2dht body to put all the convert stuff in. It is a lot of work but very rewarding. I had friends that said I was nuts, maybe so, but in the end it turned out great. However to be honest, if I live another 74 years I would never do it again. I know you know this but use plentey of bracing, very important. I am not sure if you are reusing the cowel , dog legs and header from the convertable. I cut just below the dog legs of the convertable and transplanted them onto the 2drht body, you will need this for header strength. This is one build I will follow to the end.
Yes, it is more work than probably makes sense to most people. But, I enjoy the challenge. I could just buy an intact one if I really wanted to, but it would probably very soon just sit in the pole building with the 55 Crown and I would soon just go back out and work on some other oddball marginal logic project anyway. Doing it is frequently frustrating, but also satisfying to me. I would probably steal the "Graveyard Cars" tag, but it is already spoken for by Mark the Mopar guy.
The replacement of left and right windshield posts along with the top of windshield frame is what I did on my 57 convertible also. The cowl on mine actually came from a 57 Custom 4 door CA cop car, spot welds drilled out and then plug welded back together. So, I have dealt with the windshield before to some extent, but not the upper rear body changes cuz my 57 convertible was pretty complete back of the doors, though needing floors and lower quarters.
The 58 convertible had a tree fall on top of the windshield so that screwed up the top front header bow and top of windshield frame. I might be able to fix the front header bow if I just can't find another, but it is pretty rough so looking for another one preferably.
Same for top of the windshield frame. I do have a couple cowls with good windshield frames that are from/on 57-58 retractables that are probably the same on windshield side posts, but underneath the stainless on top of the windshield frame, the top half of 2 piece upper windshield frame structure is a different side profile to match the differing metal top fastening screw mechanisms and placement of those. But, if you looked at a photo of the front half of a retractable and a convertible with the tops down, they are pretty hard to tell apart.
Both of those (top of windshield frame and header bow) could end up being Fitzee Fabrications type piece-by-piece work if I can't get replacements. But, that gives me another idea to investigate on possibly modifying retractable windshield frames. Maybe have to take one of those apart structurally tomorrow to see what the possibilities are.
I talked to a guy in Nebraska tonight that says he has at least one, maybe 2 57-58 convertible cowls, and possibly a header bow. But not sure if we will be able to work something out since I don't really want or need another entire cowl and he rightfully views the selling of just the top and sides of a windshield frame as making the rest of it worthless.
And if he has titles/vin plates for those that would just about guarantee he will probably want more than I want to pay. I can do an awful lot of fabrication work in the time it would take to go get it as well and I can use my 57 convertible for a jig to make sure it all fits together well before final welding.
How did you do the rear part between the trunk lid and convertible top rear curtain? Install the entire top metal and front trunk lip with the substructure off the convertible and cut out the hardtop one? I see the substructure under that is not the same shape underneath between sedan and convertible. Convertible has a thicker profile substructure ahead of the front of trunk lid and inside the trunk, plus the shaped edge on the top side of that piece for pot metal trim at the base of the top, the drain chutes, etc.
Did you also use a set of the shorter, firmer convertible body mounts since they also differ between convertible and retractable cars compared to the rest of the lineup of fixed roof cars?
Giving you a memory test now. :) ;D ;D
This section behind the rear window/curtain in case it was not clear what I was talking about...
Yes, you are giving me a memory test. It has been over 20ears since I built mine. I have a lot of pictures, that I have not looked at for a long time but will look now. As I recall I cut along the top of the fin where the 1/4 trim goes. We took it from the door jamb to the top of the trunk, deck lid . There was a lead filled joint on both sides that I believe is where it was cut. Cutting it apart was the easy part. Putting it into the hard top body was a challenge. This is one area I had extra bracing , to be sure the top frame would line up correctly with the windshield header. We had to tack weld it a few times to get it just right but then i went very well. My top moves to the right about a 1/4 inch when I lock it down, but I think they did that when new and original. Now you have me wondering about a couple of things so it is time to go dig my pictures out. One thing I remember for sure is don't get in a hurry, it will all come together if you give it a chance. Take care, Alvin
" I cut along the top of the fin where the 1/4 trim goes. We took it from the door jamb to the top of the trunk, deck lid . There was a lead filled joint on both sides that I believe is where it was cut."
Yes, that fin trim goes there on the quarter peak on a 57 so it would be the logical spot, but this being a 58 with different quarter trim placement IDK if it is optimal to do it that way for a 58. Think a former neighbor bodyman told me once that if I had to choose between a peak and a flat or low spot to make a weld joint graft, the peak is stronger and resists warpage much better but the low spot is better for making an invisible joint and you want avoid having filler on the extruding peaks.
Being a 4 door complicates it more of course. So I am tentatively thinking that I will graft in the convertible door post and as much of the front quarter as fits in one piece and doing a vertical joint with 4 door quarter where back of rear door currently resides. Then cut that section horizontally under where wide 58 side trim fits and use new lower patch panels or parts of rear doors to fix the rusty bottoms there. My rear quarter glass window mounts for tracks are all in the inner structure of that piece too so that will hopefully work out.
Did you drill out the rear seat vertical support structure and replace it with the convertible one as a separate piece, or left it welded to the inner quarter convertible structural supports too and welded it factory bracing and all as one complex but dimensionally intact piece?
" This is one area I had extra bracing , to be sure the top frame would line up correctly with the windshield header. We had to tack weld it a few times to get it just right"
Yes, I have made that mistake of welding stuff too good multiple times without completely checking fit of all subsequent pieces that attach to it, so hopefully have learned my lesson on that expediency mistake by now. Tack it very solid, no more.. Then check fit of ALL subsequently dependent structural components and trim. Only then do the substantive welding.
"My top moves to the right about a 1/4 inch when I lock it down".
My 57 does as well and did before I took it apart too. I think that can be adjusted out, but it does not seem to cause any problems so I left mine too. The 57 convertible I had when I was 16 did the same thing, so I think you are right that many came that way. My excuse is that "it's factory designed that way". Might also cause fabric tension issues on a complete top to try adjusting it any time after fabric installation would be my guess.
Yes we changed out the seat supports, I am not so sure that we would of had to, but it all went back to geter ok. I will tell you this if you can make it work with out cutting and welding leave it alone. It takes a lot of time to get it back like factory. The seat supports andis one I think would have been fine without changing. You have got to remember my build was 20 years ago and you are making my old retired mind work overtime.