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I have had huge brake issues on the 57 RHT that I just finished.  I have got it so it will stop very good, but it still isn't right.   I hope this will make since,  I am not sure if this is part of my problem or not. The 2 pins that go from the shoes to the brake cylinder are at a angle, not running straight across from the shoe to the cylinder. When the brakes are applied the pins do push against the cups in the cylinder, but I am wondering if they are not being activated all the way.  No matter what I do I can not get the pins to run straight, any ideas. I am beganing to wonder if they sent me the wrong shoes.  One more thing, this is a power brake sysetem, and if the car is not running I have no brakes. I have a electric vaccume  pump that helps a bunch, but if it is not running I have no brakes.  Every thing is new

How much of an angle? A picture would help..

Maybe 5+ degree. I will have friend take a picture and post it, but that won't be until next week

What was changed since it worked OK?  Sounds like a mismatch between the wheel cylinder, backing plate, and shoes.  Were any of the three items recently replaced?  Is the wheel cylinder upside down?  Just guessing without a photo.

John

How are you seeing them? Drums off? New shoes cam ground?
Did you know one shoe activates before the other? Be sure each wheel has one long and one short lining with all the shorts toward the front of the car. The shoes only need to move a small distance to engage if adjusted correctly.
Goodluck,

Ron.

I don't think that small of an angle would be a problem. Last year when I did the front brakes on my truck I noticed the pins weren't exactly horizontal, just a slight angle but it brakes fine with no problem. Do you still have one of the old shoes to compare?

John, everything is new, and installed correctly, Ron, shoes are installed right, and I am looking it it with drums off.  Its like I said in my first post, I do have brakes but only if vacuum booster is running. To me I should still be able to stop the car running or not.  This is a power assist system so why won't it stop like the rest of my cars do with out power brakes?  The brakes have been bled many times, good fluid and hard pedal, so to me they should stop at anytime. That is why I asked about the pins not being horizonal. This damn thing has me about ready to commit  harry carry.

Power brake master cylinders are 1 1/8" diameter, manual brake ones are 1".  A power brake master on a manual brake car is extremely hard to stop, you cannot even slide the old 7.50x14 bias tires.  Don't ask me how I know that.  I assume a power brake with no power would act the same.  Hard pedal with very little braking.  You may not have a problem, Alvin.   John

Quote from: Hoosier Hurricane on 2021-11-12 11:44
Power brake master cylinders are 1 1/8" diameter, manual brake ones are 1".  A power brake master on a manual brake car is extremely hard to stop, you cannot even slide the old 7.50x14 bias tires.  Don't ask me how I know that.  I assume a power brake with no power would act the same.  Hard pedal with very little braking.  You may not have a problem, Alvin.   John

AGREE.

But it's even worse than just the difference in cylinder diameter.  I currently have my booster assembly removed from the car.  The power booster has a "three inch" increase in linkage leverage, compared to a direct manual system.  Without any power assist, it might slow the car down, but your going to have to really stand on the pedal.

Interesting info here. What do you guys think is the reason for that large diam of a mc ? would the power brakes feel to 'touchy' with a std size m/c?
lock up at the smallest amount of foot pressure?
maybe people weren't so much aware of the wild braking force of a power assisted pedal in 1957 , as we are getting used to today in modern cars? ( not me, because i hate driving modern cars)

Interestingly enough my std brakes 57CS wagon really stops very well and I could easily lock up the tires, even though I am not a 'large size' person.

I have an oem 57 Ford brake booster setup for my Del Rio project and I am thinking if I could use it with the factory 1" m/c.

Good question Gunter. I've seen other cars with 1" master and power so it may be possible.
The first car I drove with power brakes was a 55 Oldsmobile, Hit the brakes, locked up the wheels and I thought I was going out through the windshield. All the cars I have owned over the years not one has had power brakes..

My guess is that it has to do with the amount of fluid that must move to actuate the brakes and the travel/mechanical advantage of the booster design. A larger master does not have to move as far as a smaller one.

It?s the ratio of the power brake pedal assembly  compared to the non power assembly. A 1inch bore with the sure swift PB will give you a very soft pedal feel , like it has air in the system. A 1 1/8 inch bore on the standard brake will give a very hard pedal. The pedal is very low on the sure swift system compared to the standard brake.

  With the sure swift system even having the brakes out of adjustment will make the pedal almost hit the floor, that?s how low the pedal is. I am running front discs brakes with mine and can tell when the rears need to be adjusted because the pedal starts to get low .
 
The sure swift system is a adequate PB system , it?s nothing like a more modern PB system as it still has more brake feel . Not hard but not real soft .

My ranchero will stop with no vacuum but the pedal is really hard , like standing on a rock , lots of leg force

Alvin, I have a question. Do you have the vacuum tank on your PB system? Is the check valve on the tank working so it will hold vacuum with engine off ? I ask because you say you have a electric vacuum motor in the system and it should not need it unless you have a big cam or low idle vacuum. You should get 1 to 2 good assist pumps of the brakes with the engine off .

You got me wondering about the wheel cyl pins so I had to look at my brake assembly and the pins are not straight out . Here is a picture

Great read and note guys. 
I added back my swift sure.  Versailles discs upfront/ stock rears.  Used the 1 1/8 mustang master and do have a medium to low pedal.  I have the 2pound and a 10 pound valves and a prop valve. 
I have bled the system and adjusted the rears. 

I am able to lock them up and I even adjust to a ratio where the front lock more than the rear am I get sort a nose dive.  Gonna set mine up with more to the rear though. 
With the booster plugged and disconnected and do get  a hard but low pedal.

I also did notice that my rears don't have the self adjusting mechanism and want to add the soon. 

If we're to do this again.  I would have kept my car all stock.   If the engine was kept stock.

I have a heavy 41 Cadillac with drums all around.  With a Cad 500 engine.   It brakes and stop well when all is adjusted properly. 

You really shouldn't be using a 2 lb on the discs it will cause them to drag. Thats only required when the master cylinder is lower then the disc like on 40's type cars..
Changing to self adjusters isn't that easy unless someone knows a method. The anchor pin is to short to allow the extra hardware.

I hear you on the residual valves I will end up reverting back.  I really wanted a high hard pedal and it seems there is no suck thing with some power brake setups. 

After the disc conversion I can't get a high pedal like the drums had, it's solid but not high. Mine are non power.. I think it is because the discs needing more volume moved  :dontknow:

Guys.  Have you found anyone else with similar setups where you can feel how their pedal works?
There is a few guys with disc Conversions and I checked it out and they seem to feel the same.

I took out the front 2# valve today on mine and it still feel the same drag.  I need to road test this week.

Just curious as to how far your pedal is going down? With drums I was about 1" travel and with the disc it's closer to 2" before a solid pedal. Mine are manual Granada discs..

I was like.  I have nothing else to do.  I'll measure. And it's good info.

Pedal at rest is about 4" at the back.  Then pressed to start feeling pressure about 3-3.25". The about another 1/2" further where I'm putting a bunch of pressure.  It doesn't go all all way to the floor.
I know, know, this is with my hand. 

I'm no help, I don't have any idea what would be normal with Swift Sure power brakes and disc conversion. Hopefully some who has done this will have some input.

I have done the disc conversation with this system. My ranchero has the original sure swift system on it , now with Granada disc fronts and  stock rears . Used a Granada multifunction valve . Works great no problems .I did this conversion 15 + years ago. But disc conversion isn?t alvins real problem. He is having problems with it in what should be in stock form. I know I helped get this off track. When I had the brakes all original it still was a ok system when you think for the day . I still wonder why he has a vacuum pump in the system? There is no reason for the vacuum pump. My picture of the front brakes is from my ranchero as removed 15 + years ago. Had to climb in the attic to snap it lol.

Great discussion and information here !
thx for the detailed description, dgasman !

Thank you for the added picture, that confirms the pins do sit on an angle..

The reason I added the electric vacuum pump is,  my 312 has a full race cam and we could not get enough vacuum from the intake to get the power assist to work.  There fore  after installing the electric pump all works well, except if it is not running you are SOL if you have to use the brakes.  This brings me back to my original ? shouldn't I have some brakes or stopping power without the motor running.

The correct fuel pump will provide vacuum for wipers and booster.

Yes , you should have stopping power with no vacuum. Mine does stop and The pedal is very hard .
Do you have the vacuum can reservoir on the inner fender ? Is the check valve on the can working. It holds enough vacuum for 1to2 pumps on the brakes with the engine off .

ON my system I have brakes with with booster disconnected and the vacuum plugged, I actually test mine that way last week.

Yes,  I do have the vacuum reservoir, but  I do not have the correct fuel pump.  The fuel pump only has one line and that as to the carb.

Gary, just a quick thought, if I had the correct fuel pump, I still would have no vacuum if motor is not running. So in my case  I still would have no brakes.

Jim, I guess  I missed something here.  Where is the picture that shows the pins at an angle.

Quote from: alvin stadel on 2021-11-15 20:03
Jim, I guess  I missed something here.  Where is the picture that shows the pins at an angle.

Go back to post #14 and Dgasman added a picture.

Quote from: alvin stadel on 2021-11-11 09:11I have had huge brake issues on the 57 RHT that I just finished. I have got it so it will stop very good, but it still isn't right. I hope this will make since,  I am not sure if this is part of my problem or not. The 2 pins that go from the shoes to the brake cylinder are at a angle, not running straight across from the shoe to the cylinder. When the brakes are applied the pins do push against the cups in the cylinder, but I am wondering if they are not being activated all the way.  No matter what I do I can not get the pins to run straight, any ideas. I am beganing to wonder if they sent me the wrong shoes.

QuoteThe correct fuel pump will provide vacuum for wipers and booster.

A TWO STAGE MECHANICAL FUEL pump only supplies vacuum to the vacuum wipers when manifold vacuum falls enough to not operate the vacuum motor.

If you have a cam that produces too little manifold vacuum to operate a booster and you have added an additional electric vacuum pump to supply the booster and there is no stopping power when the car is not running, you have a bad (or no) vacuum reserve tank/vacuum check valve.

That vacuum reserve should give at least two emergency stops without the engine running or the electric vacuum pump not running/failed (as long as that reserve tank has not bled down and lost vacuum).

Quote from: KULTULZ on 2022-09-25 21:04

Below is correct assy of the front brakes (57 drum)-

BRAKE - 1957 FORD - BIRD - Frt _1.JPG

If the pins are not square, it has incorrect parts and/or assembly. The shoes will not be activated correctly.

I am assuming that is the RF brake assembly, with the front of the car toward the right side, if so, the brake shoes are installed incorrectly. The short brake lining should be on the front, and the longer shoe on the rear, opposite what this shows.

Been a long time since I have done drum brakes but, it seems that the orange spring is incorrect for 57.


Ron.

Quote... the brake shoes are installed incorrectly

Yes, they are. So much for my proof reading ability.

Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2022-09-26 11:30Been a long time since I have done drum brakes but, it seems that the orange spring is incorrect for 57.

Ron.

Why would you say that?

I don't remember ever seeing that spring on any brake job I have done. Probably thrown away by who ever did the first brake job and they were not in the hardware kits back in the day. When I do the brakes on my 61 Starliner i'll look for them.

Ron.

The truth is Ron, is that the third spring was added during the production run, I had a TSB but have lost the darn thing.

But is it agreed that the photo I showed is correct assy (other than side) relating to the wheel cylinder pins?

I don't have that TSB either, thought I had most of the 57-60 TSB's. Maybe someone on here has one we could get a copy of.

Ron.

BTW ...

My SEP 1956 ISSUE 1957 FORD WSM does not show the 3rd spring while it is shown in both a SEP 59 ISSUE MPC and FINAL ISSUE MPC.

I am still looking for that SERVICE BULLETIN -

It is shown with the shoes installed incorrectly for the RS of the car. But it does show correct ASSY although it is for the LS.

Either the guy screwed up or as the backing plates are the same L and R, he may have bench assembled and installed on the incorrect side.

Who knows?

... 2nd time I have been caught on that photo. Looks like I would have learned the first time ...  :deadhorse:

Well as of this afternoon I took my 57 RHT. off the market. I haven't messed with any of my cars this past spring or summer do to some bad ass health issues. I had the RHT out 3 times and all was well. I had it out today and about messed my knickers because of very weak brakes. I sure wish some of you brake experts lived a little closer to me. I have checked and rechecked everything you have asked about. There are 2 things that may be the issue. One the pins that move the cylinder cups are at a angle, and 2nd, The fact that this 312 has a full race cam, and I can;t get enough vaccume. I have a elctric vaccume pump and it works fine when the RPMS are up' However when in traffic or town driving, there is little brakes and it does get scary. So I think I will get rid of the cam, and get some shorter cylinder pins.  Everything is new and installed correctly, so I am kind of at a loss as of what to do. Thanks in advance for any new info, Alvin

 
There is too much confusion here -

You have a 57 FORD w KH PEDAL ASSIST POWER BRAKES? Did the car come with it or did you do a retro-fit?

You have done a front disc conversion using VERSAILLES disc (I a$$-u-me you used the spindles also?).

What model year MC did you use (DISC/DRUM dualing reservoir), OEM or aftermarket?

Does the MC contain a rear drum residual pressure valve? Do you have a free-standing #10 RPV on the rear circuit? Is there any type of proportioning or combination valve used?

Why such a hot cam on a street car?

What is your manifold vacuum at idle and say 2500 RPM?

Have you put a vacuum gauge on the booster supply line? Does the reservoir tank hold vacuum? Is the check valve operational? Have you checked the vacuum draw of the electric assist pump @ all RPM's?

Did you take photos while performing all of this?

A vacuum booster is not going to be able to see the needed vacuum signal to operate it below 17-18 HG

We need to know all before attempting to diagnose.

No disk brakes, drums all around. It was a power assist brake car. We just updated with new power unit, and dual master cylinder. M/C has 1 1/8 bore. I have been fighting the vaccum issue and thought it was all good until today, when I had to go a little wase at low RPM and this give way to almost no brakes. When I got back on the highway , and higher RPM all worked very well. plenty of stopping power.

Quote from: alvin stadel on 2022-09-29 20:31No disk brakes, drums all around. It was a power assist brake car. We just updated with new power unit, and dual master cylinder. M/C has 1 1/8 bore. I have been fighting the vaccum issue and thought it was all good until today, when I had to go a little wase at low RPM and this give way to almost no brakes. When I got back on the highway , and higher RPM all worked very well. plenty of stopping power.

Again -

QuoteWhat is your manifold vacuum at idle and say 2500 RPM?

Have you put a vacuum gauge on the booster supply line?

Does the reservoir tank hold vacuum?

Is the check valve operational?

Have you checked the vacuum draw of the electric assist pump @ all RPM's?

You have two choices with that cam,

Either find an electric vacuum pump that works, or

Revert to Manual Brakes (or HYDRO-BOOST).

Do you have a 1957 FORD SHOP MANUAL? There are several adjustments on that unit.

Do you know the specs on that camshaft? With such a heavy car, and likely tall "highway" gearing, a lumpy cam will not only kill the manifold vacuum, but make the car a dog from a stop, or at low speeds. Not too mention make it gas thirsty. I have never owned a 50s Ford with the "Swift Sure Power Brakes" bellows setup, but I have experienced the big cam/low vacuum syndrome with some of my other cars, kinda a PITA for a driver type car.

Poor vacuum boost?  Its not going to get any better without repairs.  Simple solution at least for now is an electrific vacuum pump. A good cheap source is a used one from a diesel Range rover. There is one on ebay now for as low as $26.