One of our members, rlibew, is in process of installing a 4.6 right now. I've been e-mailing him, and he has lots of pics, but has trouble posting them, and even getting into the threads to do any posting. I suggested he may not be logged in when trying to post Any other suggestions for him? This post is kinda a test..rlibew, are you there?
Rich
P.S. I'm also curious about a member tagged 57dohc...how about logging on and letting us know about your ride....PLEASE. And as long as I'm soliciting people..anybody know what happened to Canadian Ranchero? He hasn't logged on to this site since April. Hope everything is ok with him.
He is not the only one having difficulty posting! I have been following this site trying to get up the motivation to get started on my car after I kinda promised my wife I would stop working on cars. Somehow, I just can't give this one up! It a Custom 300 2dr parked since 1963 with a shelled transmission in dry southern Colorado. The body is amazing; never any repaint/body work nor rust in quarter,rockers or under headlights. The only rust spots on the exterior body are a small spot in each lower front fender. Hard to pass up! I orginally planned on a 428 for this car but ran across a wrecked 2004 Mach 1 5 spd car with only 7000 miles. In addition to the engine/transmission, I hope to transplant radiator,hydroboost brake system, fuel tank/pump, heating/air,and maybe even the 4 link rear end.
At this point, I have removed the front clip as well as the seized 272 and what was left of the od transmission. Next step is to remove the drive train on the Mach and see if I can fit it the 57. I will use the Detail zone harness as the factory wiring looks very complicated. Computer will need PATS removed. I do want to be sure the engine fits before I order these things. I have a rebuilt 312 on a engine stand if I get too frustrated!
I did a 5.0 EFI swap on an early Mustang a few years ago but this one is going to be more involved.!
I think you find it a very enjoyable project. Super cool. Hang on to the donor car. Lots of things will swap over like the dash and steering column. You will want the master cylinder and booster as well as the pedal assembly and gas pedal and cable. The rear end might be problematic. The '57 rear is a narrow 9" that could stand to be a little narrower. The Mustang rearend is MUCH wider. Consider swapping the rear disc to the 9". The Mustang is a front steer car as well is the 4.6 pan. The '57 steering will need to be severely altered as will be the front brakes. It might be worth considering a front frame half.
I believe a Lincoln Continental 4.6 has a front sump pan....? Not sure what year, there was a thread here or the HAMB that had a 4.6 DOHC into a 57, I'll try to find it as I did save some pictures of the swap.
57dohc...glad you finally made it here..welcome to the site. Did you figure out why you were having posting problems?
I was checking the specs for a 2004 mach1 to make sure it was in fact a 4.6 and not a 5.0 we were talking about..I just couldn't remember when Mustangs went 5.0...but 4.6 it is. Bill is correct on the front sump oil pan, oil pick up, etc. the '95 Linc. continental 4.6 fwd is one car the pan can be had from. I'm not sure why Gary was talking about heavy modifications to brakes and steering...as far as I know there are none, unless posibly if the car is equipt with factory power steering.
The thread Bill mentioned, if you haven't already found it is currently on page 3 of this section. Look for the one with over 10,000 hits! Lots of valuable info there, including components from other vehicles that will make the swap posible. there is also another thread after that one with more info. Both the guys doing the swap on that thread were using Markviii engines and trannys, but alot, if not all, except electronics, should apply.
A basically rust free 300...awesome! where did you find that one? "So. Colorado"...lol you may be closer to me than most of the Texas members! what town are you in/near?
This is a link to pics of a '57 with a similar swap: http://www.carbuff.net/57_ford. The guy posting this apparently inherited the car unfinished, and was for sale last year. It is the car I think Gary was thinking of with his suggestions. An awesome car....Anybody know any current info on it?
I think it was 10 or 11 that the 5.0 entered the Mustang line.
Something new (to me) I just found out talking to detail Zone, other than the computer from the donor car, the engine ignition control module is also needed. On the Lincoln Markviii's, it's located on the drivers side shock tower. The code reader plug in is supplied with the new kit, so that is not needed from the donor car. '93 to '95 Mark viii's are all the same, the '96 is different, and that year has 2 versions.
I talked to my trusted mechanic at a transmision shop here in town, and got a price of 1400 to rebuild and upgrade the 4r70w tranny I have. My plans are to bring the car to my friends hot rod/ restoration shop here in town next spring and have hin set the engine and tranny in place. I have neither the expertise or the facilities to do that correctly, so having that done for me will give me some piece of mind. I'll pull the tranny from the Mark viii and have it rebuilt before it goes to Cody's. If I can, because of budget restraints, I'd like to wait until after the engine is in place to do the rear end....I'll just be redoing the suspension as oem design. My concern at this time is knowing there is not a whole lot of height adjustment that can be made without getting into more elaborate control arm work, or cutting into the transmision tunnel, so hopefully there is enough to allow the rake I want the car to have, and still get the engine mounted properly...I guess I won't know that till we get it ihis shop.
Much later update: What I called the engine control module is actually the ignition control module, and is only on '93-'95 Mark viii's. In '96 that function was incorporated into the computer.
Another much later (2016) update...my references to ride height were in regards to having the engine end up level when the car is finished/final ride height with the mentioned rake. My early posts on this thread are almost funny...so much changed as the build progressed.
Rich...
re: ride height
Don't forget about the 1990 Aerostar front springs as a good starting point with stock spindles. Working great on my wagon.
Moog part number CC850 and should be under $100 for the pair at NAPA, O'Reilly.
These photos are right after the springs were installed, so they have settled in a bit more.
Rob
I've got new 6 cyl. springs and 2 1/2 dropped spindles. I'm hoping with new 6 leaf springs in the rear, and tire differences,that'll give me the rake I wanted...but will have to wait 'til after everythings piled on to know for sure. I do like the rake on yours for a wagon. If you have a level/protractor, could you put it on your rocker panel and let me know (LOL assuming your garage floor is level..I lived in socal for a number of years, I know about those earthquakes). I'm gonna guess it's about 2 degrees..I'm thinking 3 for mine, but as I said, I gotta find some guys with rakes I like or even don't like to measure so I'll have a reference.
Sorry Rich...no level protractor.
Your drop has a head start with those spindles. The Aerostar springs may be too much in your case, since they seem to drop about 3 inches or so.
The ride height in the rear of mine is stock with new stock leaf springs installed just a couple of years ago. Tires are the same all around, 215 60 15.
Rob
No digital level/protractor...shame on you... LOL. Ok, would you measure the difference in height at the rockers next to the front and rear wheelwells, and the distance between those two measuring points. I can calculate the angle from that....if I can find my old machinist's trig book. Thanks in advance.
Rich...
The rocker in front of the rear tire is at 9 inches and the rocker behind the front tire is at 6 3/4 inches off my garage floor.
Hope that helps!
Rob
Thanks Rob.
My 4.6 2003 cobra is in place used Lincoln front sump pan to clear Frame cross member, fabricated new trans mount so engine and trans fit without modifying floor. Headers are going to be a problem and now plan to used stock cobra cast iron. The alternator and oil filter had to be relocated as clearance to the frame was not what I wanted. I'm using 57 ford 4 row aluminum radiator so outlet from the engine had to be rederected as I wanted the original style radiator. intercooler lines have not been run but intercooler is mounted in front of radiator below AC condenser. The battery will be in the trunk as the air intake will run right across right side of engine where battery would be, with intake and filter inside fender well, above and in front of tire. I running the cobra 6 speed trans and cable clutch system which is not in at this time. The stock hood with engine set should clear blower and not need modifying, but have not tried it yet !!!
I'm using autometer gauges with tachometer, speedo, temp, oil, voltage, fuel and modifying stock cluster, not installed. I will get pictures posted soon. I'm have a lot of this work done as it is over my skill level, with the 4.6 4 valve engine mods.
Thanks for posting. You're making great progress. Is the alternator on the '03 Cobra in a different place than on the Mark viii? What are you doing for wiring?
I remember discusing this recently but couldn't find out where....We were talking difference in width of the 4.6 dohc vs. the 460 big block. I was at a salvage yard today searching for an oil pan donor, and there was a 4.6 sohc Towncar next to a 77 Mark v. I didn't have a tape measure with me, but used a broken antenae to compare the diference. The sohc is at least 6" wider than the 460..which makes me think the 8" wider number for the dohc that I had in the back of my mind is probably about correct.
I did find a 95 continental for an oil pan donor, but the car is sitting on the ground with no wheels and it is a pull-it-youself yard only, so I'll have to see if the weather holds. I may try to find one that I don't have to pull...but the $25 price for pan and pick up was cheaper than I was expecting. Also found two mark viii's new to the lot..I'm going to go back and pull the cpu's and engine ignition control module for back-up's. They're both 95's, but I've been told it's the same as the '94 stuff I'm using. only $20 for the cpu...that really surprised me.
Hey guys, all you 4.6 fans, the February street rodder came yesterday, there is a nice article about the 4.6. No particular vehicle, but good stuff about intake manifolds, oil filter options, some talk about wiring, they compare length, width, height to a 351W, and a SBC. Good read, Mark
Thanks for the headsup...I went down and got a copy.
Rich
I'm useing the computers from the 03 cobra as well as hydro boost pedels, oil pan from 90s linclon. The computer has to be reworked to eliminate 02 sensers, anti lock barakes etc etc.I fuel system uses the cobra 0ne line fuel pump in my stock tank after being altered to except cobra fuel pump. The steering is from unisteer for this modification , but had to be reworked to clear pan ?? so much for kit for this application. The rear end is a 2" narrowed 57 ford 9" with 3.50 gears, track lock, with Exploder rear disc brakes and lokar emergency brake cables. The 2" narrowed rear end was to acomadate 275-60-15 tires on 8 or 9 in rims with 4 to 5 in back space. The rear springs were relocated as well to a inline with frame lacation gaining 2 1/2 " to the inside.I have test fitted 275-60-15 on 8" rims with 3.5 back space that fit close without trimming fender lip. Still a lot of work to be done , my hope is to have it on the road next spring by April. My current issue is left front fender it does not apear to have been hit but is has a bow in the middle just above the tire center, body guys is trying to srink it out and claims many 57 ford were stamped with this erregularity. I'm now looking for a left front without this defect, I just do not want to look down the side of my car and see this, right side does not have this.
Great progress. I wish I was as far along as you! I'm still in the process of removing the k member on the Mach 1 and as usual it is taking more time than expected Hope to finish that this week and get engine fitted on the 57 frame. I did discover that the Mustang radiator is damaged and not usable; I am curious how the 57 radiator you are using fits with your engine. The Mustang engine compartment is about 6 inches longer to the firewall and I had expected a clearance problem with the 57 radiator with the electric fan. As the engine I'm installing is quite like yours, your imput would be helpful.
I have also given up on using the 4 link rear axle after spending to much time under this car. It would be quite a job without taking the frame off the body and I don't think I need to do this with this car. I do have a lincoln versailles disc rear I can use which will simply bolt in and concentrate on all the other things that need to be done.
By the way, I do have an extra left front fender that is really nice. I bought it at a swap meet 10 years ago when I didn't even have a 57 ford! The only reason I bought it was I hadn't seen a rust free 57 fender for years and I might need it some day. If you don't get yours straightened, I probably could be talked out of it. However, I do live in Colorado! Al
what are either of you doing for motor mounts?
57dohc:...will the versailles rear member fit without narrowing? If I remember correctly, the '57-8's were the narrowest of any of the 9".
Rich,
The Versailles rear axle is within one half of an inch difference in width from the 57 and exactly the same from spring perch to spring perch. I've put a couple of these in early Mustangs which are also the same. The drawbacks are that they are heavy,bearing and seals are expensive and the emergency brake system is a pain to hook up. Of course, the gear ratios are always bad for the 9 inch center so I'll be looking for a 3.50 ratio traction lock.
I'm hoping I can use the existing motor mounts on the 4.6. I think i remember a post on this site where the existing motor mounts on the cross member were simply "notched" to accept the single bolt of the Mustang. Hopefully, that will be the case. I should know shortly.
I did get my Continental oil pan today. Gave up and bought one on Epay; $31 from a yard in New Jersey and even with $19 in shipping it was less than the only local one I could find at $85. I put 6 quarts of water in to test the fill level which was within about half an inch from the top. Even the shallow end had over an inch coverage. I do think the existing oil dipstick will work by just shortening it until it just bottoms out on the pan and then marking the "full" mark once the 6 quarts of oil are added.
rlibew:...sounds like your at a point on your build where you at least know what you're gonna do for the radiator/cooling fans? Do you know how much room you have for them? I'm hopefully gonna try and rework my core support to move the new 8 cyl. radiator I bought forward so it mounts more like the 6 cyl. radiator, then going to try and adapt the Markviii shroud and fan assembly. I pulled some dimensional drawings off the internet..length and width look like it should work....depth I'm not sure about. The 4.6 is 3 or 4 inches shorter than the 351, so hopefully there's room.
I'm using the complete 2003 cobra wirering harness, I have a tech who will eliminate o2 sensor, air bags, security etc etc. I have purchased a programmer for this and later dyno tune for drive ability. All this is being handled by Scharders speed and style here in California.
The donnor car's computers, hydro boost, peddle Assembly, fuel pump peddles etc etc are being used here. engine set in engine very nice, albeit filling it up. As I had reported the alternater was move up as cobra alternater is located bottom drivers side. we modified inner panel but we were not happy with clearance if engine moved under real driving conditions. I know I still owe picts and soon will do so
and the radiator? Looking forward to pics.
Rich
I have a couple of those Mark VIII fans hanging on the wall. Everything that I have read says they move more air than about anything else. Many are two speed. The shroud will not be the same size as your radiator so about an inch can be trimmed to get it closer to the radiator. Will need to fab a shroud. You can also offset the fan to get more room between the fan motor and the water pump pulley. I tossed the core support and made one. The 460 is every bit the room hog as a 4.6.
don't know what the length of the 460 is...My guess it's 3-5 inches longer that the 4.6, Width wise, your 460 is about 6" narrower than a 4.6 SOHC...compared the two in side by side cars at the local yard a few weeks ago....and of course the DOHC is wider yet.
So far my two fan offset unit looks like it well fit, but sense we are now on body work with engine and front clip coming back out for body paint with doors and fenders being painted while off frame, it will be a few weeks to get back to it.
My left front fender is now in good shape with bow almost completely gone, maybe down to eight of an inch. The question came up about motor mounts, mine are stock mustang with 57 frame perches reworked as mine were butchered by early owner to install 302 not sure why holes were en-longgated with torch but they were. I'm not sure
about Lengths of other engines but the 4.6 fits with my 4 row aluminum 57 radiator but close with electric fans. I will say this engine fills the engine bay, as it is a wide engine, but looks very nice in there. I'm hoping for spring 13 to have it on the road, maybe no interior but on the road. I know pictures pictures
I somehow missed this post until this morning. Thanks for the info. I'm assuming the fan/radiator combo "looking like it will fit" is with the '57 radiator in the original position on the core support?
I'm going to look into moving my new aluminum radiator forward in the core support by altering the support.
The dual offset fan unit looks like it will fit without moving radiator mounts forward as the 4.6 is actually shorted by 4.375" in length than a 351 engine. In the current Street Rodder magazine there is a article on these two engine with measurements , width length height. the article actually compares the measurements of the 4.6, 351 Ford and a 350 Chevie. My fan unit has two 11electric fans built into an aluminum shroud with placement at upper and lower corners there still in the box but I will verify if they are upper left and lower right or vise verse but don't thing is will matter. I will take some measurements this weekend and respond
The engine may be shorter but the routing of coolant tubes between the front of the engine and electric fan may create clearance problems. The Mustang engine compartment is almost 6 inches longer than the 57 (firewall to radiator support) and that still doesn't afford too much extra room to keep the hoses out of the engine pulleys. I do think Rich's solution of moving the radiator forward will probably give enough clearance if those hoses can be secured to the back of the fan assembly. Of course, I am working with the orginal Mustang fan and other units may not take up as much room.
Apparently, from the chart I posted at the beginning of this thread, the Mark viii can only be trimmed to about 5 1/2. That is at the highpoint in the center though, so hopefully there's enough room for all the coolant lines, etc. as you brought up. That 5 1/2 height may preclude it from being used on our '57's..I won't have anyway of knowing til the engine is in place unless someone else can figure some dimensions from their installed 4.6 engine front (@ crankshaft pulley?) to a reference point on the core support
My engine pulleys and belts set 4" from my stock radiator and my fan unit is only 2 1/2 " so, so far all is good. I bought my electric fan unit from a local radiator shop complete with two offset fans and aluminum shroud that attaches to the frame of 57 radiator. I will go by and get manufacturer name and model if possible, I purchased it two years ago to use on 351 install. At this point it looks like all plumbing will clear, but we all know how our plans work out some times. I believe this setup is a alternative to using the thicker mustang fan unit.
I need to get my back yard cleaned up before the city tags my unregistered cars, so I started stripping down the oler mark Viii I bought years ago. I also nedd the tranny out of it to gut out for the mock up into my '57. I'm taking off anything I can posibly use or resell for parts...then it's going to the scrap yard. I'm also gonna remove the back rt. quarter just in case I decide to repair the nicer Mark Viii I recently bought.
Anyway..I now fully understand what 57DOHC was talking about when he said it was taking more time to remove stuff from his Mustang donor!! I'm also using the experience to figure out how to remove stuff like electrical connectors, fuel and a/c lines without damaging them. I've pulled alot of small components off it that may be usable on my '57 also like hood light switches, cable releases,fuel lines,a/c and power steering condensers, etc.
I have a minumum of equiptment I'm working with, so I'm thinking of making it a little easier and removing the core support with a sawzall, and removing the bumper spot welds. That way, I don't have to drop the K member, and the engine will only have to be raised a foot or so, if that. I'm planning on using the '93 driveshaft. It is the only Mark that has a one piece driveshaft, and according to Bob Claiborn when he did his wagon, it fits with no alterations.
A little off-topic, but talking about modular stuff..check out the wiper set-up out of the Mark..all in one unit!
Strange but true.
A friend of mine used to do research work for Ford. 20 years ago they gave him three 4.6 L engines for testing and he has one left that is essentially new with only minutes on it, not even hours. He has offered this engine to me for nothing. It's complete.
After reading through what I can find on this site, it appears that it would not be an easy job to make this swap. I have a 292/auto in my Fairlane 500. My skill level is pretty good with mechanical things, but I don't want to do any more than an engine and transmission swap. If I could not buy brackets for mounting the engine, I can fabricate them. However, I don't want to make changes like moving the radiator forward or hacking into the firewall. I just got this car back from the painter and this engine swap project is coming a little out of sequence.
I've attached a .pdf file of the pictures he sent me.
Any words of wisdom on the potential project would be appreciated from those of you that are already working on this.
Thanks,
Rich
What do you know about the engine he is offering, other than it has basically no miles? What I know about the dohc is that how difficult it is to install for a novice mechanic like myself greatly depends on the electronics the engine was designed to be used with. The Mark viii engines from 93-96 are the easiest in that they use a cable throttle and do not have the PATS system (anti-theft). Anything newer than that requires reprogramming of the computers. It's the computerized system that I was refering to when I asked what you knew about the engine....what is the engine requiring as far as a computer? It sounds like your friend is someone who wouldn't have a problem with that though. There is not a whole lot of hacking involved. There shouldn't be any to the firewall, and engine mounts require a minimun of "grinding" work to add a slot to the existing mounting plate on the crossmember. I'm just getting to the point where I'll know what is required to fab a tranny crossmember..but once again..the crossmember bolts on so no "hacking". The upper control arms need a minor amount of trimming to clear the exhaust manifolds. Ron Francis makes an engine management system to be used in conjunction with the "stock" computer and engine control modul.
The radiator being moved forward is not something that is necessary, unless posibly to make extra room for using the Mark viii shroud and fan setup. aftermarket setups don't need as much room.
You've got somebody (57dohc) not to far from you in the middle of the swap...why don't you take a ride down to the Springs and see what's going on with his install.
I'm 'bout running out of time to work on my '57..got to get back to rebuilding the house since the weather has finally broken.
If you have any specific questions, let me know. Also, if you decide against it, let me know specifics about the engine management system required for that motor, and if your friend wants to sell it.
Rich,
The engine was set up to be a test engine and the computer was also set up that way. My friend says that it does not look for all the add on equipment that I don't have any way. This engine is supposed to be a 1993 pre production unit with 305 HP. Of the three engines my friend got, one is currently being used in a university as a test bed for students and has 19 years of hard work on it with no significant problems. He said they have run that engine for hours at wide open throttle with out any problems.
I was just looking at final drive ratios. I don't know how to confirm that my car has the standard rear gears, but if so, it would 3.56:1, a little lower than what I saw for a Mark VIII at 3.07:1. My goal would be just a transplant of the engine and a 4-speed automatic transmission. I think the C-4 would work.
As to installation issues, I read about exhaust manifold clearance problems, clearance to radiator, possible clearance to hood and dip stick issues.
How about the weight of the aluminum block engine compared to the cast iron 292? Any mods required for the suspension?
Did you look at the pictures I posted?
Who has the project in Colorado Springs. That only 75 miles from me.
I had no thoughts of doing this until the offer of a free engine was made a couple of days ago. He tells me that because of the way he acquired the engine he can't sell it. He was going to save it for a future project, but told me that I could have it. It's good to have good friends.
Rich
Rich...57dohc is the one doing the swap near you. He lives in Black Forest...just north of Colorado Springs. he's using a Mustang donor for his..manual transmision...'03 I think...look back at the bigginning of this thread for his posts.
I'm not sure if a c-6 could be adapted to this engine...I would be surprised if it could..posibly an AOD. You would need the computer stuff out of a donor '93-95 Mark viii ('96's are different). If your friend, or yourself, is a auto electronics guru, you could probably make a harness. The Ron Francis setup is around a thousand, give or take, but is designed to plug into the existing engine connectors. I understand there are about 110 wires that will need to be run on their system.
I did look at your pics....super...looks identical to the '93 Mark viii I just pulled as near as I can tell without comparing pictures.
Without being too redundant on info that has already been posted on the older threads, It will need Mustang Cobra exhaust manifolds, Mustang motor mounts, Continental front sump oil pan and pick up tube, and the oil filter adapter off a Crown Vic.
The guys that have run stock or aftermarket radiators have had no fitment problems. The dip stick is a minor mod, and there are no clearance issues with the hood with the engine in your pics (it's the supercharged later engines that may have hood clearance problems).
If you decide not to do it, have your friend give you the engine, then you can sell it to me, and donate the money to him..LOL
Forgot...weight wise, when I ordered the front springs from Eaton's, they compared the 4.6dohc/4r70w tranny out of the Mark Viii to the original '57 6 cylinder manual and there was less than 65 pounds difference. I think the combined weight of the 4.6/4r70w is 760 lbs, or thereabouts.
If you decide to go with it, I'll get you some specific data (years) on the manifolds and mounts, etc.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-04-05 22:16I don't know how to confirm that my car has the standard rear gears, but if so, it would 3.56:1 ...
Look for a metal tag on the differential carrier assembly secured by one of the nuts on the housing studs.
My '58 had it's 3:56 tag on the drivers side but I have found most of them on the passenger side & so flat against the housing & hidden under grease/oil that had to be scraped away to even find it.
Rich...amoung other issues you'll need to address are the fuel tank/electric fuel pump/return lines, a means of supporting and shifting that tranny, a cable type gas pedal, speedometer, driveshaft,engine air supply along with relocating the battery,and consideration of your existing condition of electrical system.
I'm sure I'll find out about other things as I actually get into doing the installation.
To sum things up..is it an easy swap..definetly not. Don't know of many that are more compilcated. Is it going to take time..lots of it. If your calculating down time..months or a year depending on experience and how much time you've got to devote to it. Is it going to cost..you bet..you'll be looking at a donor car plus fuel and engine management system.
Is it worth it?...I'm going for it. I like the "pro's" side of the list...outweighs the "cons" imho. With that said, most of the advantages of using a late model modular engine come into play with the full array of electronics (electronic tranny, etc.) in full usage, so I'm not sure about the computer with your engine "not looking for added on things you don't have anyway", and if it would function with a computer out of a '93-95 Mark viii....that's way beyond my knowledge, but your friend may be able to answer that. I guess what I'm trying to say is, unless your going for the full package, it may not be worth the effort.
I'll probably have "one more thing" things popping into my head all day long....There is no room for a normal power brake booster. My current plans are for a hydro-boost unit out of an '01 Mustang. I'd really like an electric booster system, but they're pricey.
I would think your info-gathering priority at this time would be to find out from your friend if the engine can be adapted to run on a stock 93-95 Mark viii computer. You had indicated it had a special computer with it that "didn't look for things you didn't have anyways". That may be really good...I just don't know...but you need to consider what would happen if that computer got fried. If it's a one-off that that engine needs cause it can't be adapted to a normal street system, how are you gonna replace it?
Rich;
Thought I'd better chime in as this post mentioned me. I would welcome you to come down from Arvada to check my car out. Progress as of late has been slow. My wife was diagnosed with ovarian cancer last month and that instantly changed priorities. We have been through surgery and now chemo treatments have started. While we have an excellent chance of beating this thing, I don't want to divert my attention away from taking care of her by working alone in the garage.
However, I'm sure I would appreciate a "car visitor" now and then to keep interest in the hobby. I do have the engine on the motor mounts and it is easy to see the small modifications necessary to accomplish this. I don't see any of the mechanics of fitting the engine and transmission as very difficult. I think the main challenge will be the electronics and fuel systems but there are kits out there that can assist here. I did an 5.0 EFI conversion in a 1966 mustang with a good wiring kit and it was surprisingly easy despite my complete lack of knowledge of anything having to do with wiring!
Anyway, if you want to get that newly painted Fairlane out for a spring drive, give me a call. Weekends are best as I spend a lot of week days for medical treatments. Thanks! Al 719-650-3323.
Al,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am sorry to hear that your wife is having to go through all the problems with whipping cancer. We all offer her our best in this fight.
For me, the prospect of this whole project came out of the woodwork just last Wednesday. It's quite a project. I am not too concerned with the physical parts of the project, but the computer issues are all new to me. This is only my third car restoration project. I did a '49 Plymouth when I was 15 and when I retired in '08, I promptly did a '37 Chevrolet Master Deluxe. I drove that a few years, but with no a/c, summertime drives were just too hot. In the back of my mind has always been the '57 Fairlane. It was the first car that my Dad had that I thought was a cool car. I bought mine two years ago and then last year sold my '37 Chevy and bought a '02 Corvette.
The Fairlane was a pretty good looking car, but I rebuilt the brakes, fuel system and did an engine tear down and replaced the rings and honed the cylinders. The engine had been rebuilt in the mid '90 but the guy died shortly thereafter. The car sat for almost 15 years before I bought it. The engine ran crappy and upon doing a compression check, I had perfect compression in 5 cylinders and low compression in 3 cylinders. The crank was turned, all cylinders were bored to .030 oversize and new pistons installed. The engine now runs better, but not as well as I would like.
So that's the history of the car. I don't want to make the car a hotrod. I just bought new Diamondback radials last fall and I want to be able to keep these on the car, with original steel wheels and wheel covers.
With this engine/transmission transplant, I would also like to be able to keep my differential, speedometer and original gages if possible.
The "challenges/things to do" as I see them are; the purchase of a transmission, bell housing, torque converter, flex plate, shift linkage modifications, cable operated accelerator, air intake, modification to support the engine and transmission, drive shaft modification and some fuel supply line and pump issues.
I was anticipating that this aluminum engine would not weigh more than the cast iron unit to be replaced. I was also hoping that I could use my differential with a modified drive shaft. I don?t have power brakes or power steering and have not anticipated adding these items.
I don?t know how this engine communicates with the transmission, or even if it does. There may be computer issues that I have not considered.
Right now, I would say that I would be willing to spend a couple of grand on the project and would hope that I could complete the work in my garage during next winter.
I would love to come and visit your project. I'm not all that familiar with Colorado Springs, but my sister lives there, just north of Pulpit Rock. I get off at the Woodman Road exit to visit her. That's 75 miles from me. I'm pretty sure I can make the round trip on less than a tank of gas. I'll give you a call to coordinate this visit. Perhaps the weekend of April 20th or May 4th.
Al...sorry to hear about your wife...sometimes life really sucks. Best of wishes for her recovery. Sounds like you got your priorities in the right order...good for you.
Cool you guys maybe getting together....like they say, us '57 guys got to stick together.
Rich..."your" engine probably has the flex plate already on it, and the tranny/bellhousing are one unit. The tranny you'd be looking for is a 4R70W. That's almost identical to an AODE, is a 4 speed with overdrive. It has a higher torque range than the AODE, and the electronics are different. It is electronic..the Ron Francis system I was talking about includes the wiring for the tranny. One of the guys that did the swap a few years ago said the Markviii driveshaft fit without alterations...but he was doing a wagon (short wheelbase)...so probably would need mods for a Fairlane. I was told a 3:55 differential would be real good for the OD tranny...I want a cruiser I can drive on the freeways at 75 without tearing the engine up...like you, don't want a hot rod..just something quick, reliable and economical. I also like the idea of being able to go to a Ford Dealership if I had to on the road.
Quote from: Tom S on 2013-04-06 06:36
Look for a metal tag on the differential carrier assembly secured by one of the nuts on the housing studs.
My '58 had it's 3:56 tag on the drivers side but I have found most of them on the passenger side & so flat against the housing & hidden under grease/oil that had to be scraped away to even find it.
My tag is on the driver's side too. It was too cruddy to read, so I took it off and cleaned it up. It says 3.10, no question about that. That is perfect for me, but it's a value that I was not aware was available for this car.
My picture of the tag is not the greatest, but it's readable.
My previous information was from the internet. I also have an original shop manual. The standard rear gear ratio for the 6 and V8 was 3.10:1 with the Fordomatic, 3.56 was optional.
Does anyone know if a different differential was used with the higher horsepower options?
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-04-06 13:26Does anyone know if a different differential was used with the higher horsepower options?
Different differential? Pretty positive that they were all 9" Ford diffs.
Your data plate axle code is 2? Page 3 here says axle code is 1= 3.10.
http://www.1957ford.com/asp/gallery.aspx?catmstrid=7&catdetid=29
Also shows the tag as being on the drivers side.
The only differences were the bearing size and brake size. Wagons, Rancheros and Retractables some times got 2 1/2" or 3" fronts and 2 1/2 rears with large bearings (sometimes).
Quote from: Tom S on 2013-04-07 04:03
Different differential? Pretty positive that they were all 9" Ford diffs.
Your data plate axle code is 2? Page 3 here says axle code is 1= 3.10.
http://www.1957ford.com/asp/gallery.aspx?catmstrid=7&catdetid=29
Also shows the tag as being on the drivers side.
My data plate shows 1 for the axle code. The 93 - 96 Lincoln Mk VIII use a 3.07:1 gear ratio, essentially the same as what I have. Less than a 1% difference. So a transmission from one of those cars should be just fine.
I was also wondering if the higher horse power option engines got different rear ends designed to take the higher stress they would be getting. It seems not. I was just thinking about putting more HP to the old differential.
Rich
The only ones I'm aware of as far as oem goes are the ones designated with an "N" for a stronger nodular material.
Now that I am discussing this project with my friends, I am getting several different reactions. Some say cool project, go for it. Others are saying that I am destroying the value of my vintage car.
Me, I am off on a tangent because of the offer of a free new engine. Without this offer, there would be no major changes to the car. I think that the installation challenges are within my abilities - time will tell. And, I can afford the cost of the remaining things to buy for the project so I don't anticipate getting 1/2 done and then hitting a brick wall.
Since this question is in the "engine swaps" forum, most of you that will see this will be people that are considering or have done engine swaps.
It is my intention to keep this car for some years to come. I enjoy driving it and about once a year it will be in a car show. I've got it looking good and the new engine will have it running like a new car. I am trying to avoid scope creep in the project, but I am now also considering what it would take to convert the drum brakes to power brakes (I'm not changing the drums - mainly because I just spent a grand on 14" whitewall radials.) Of course there is a big jump in horse power, but I am also hoping that my mileage will jump from about 14 to near 20. If so, that would be nice. As you all know, the car is a gas hog.
So, what's the consensus on this type of upgrade/change to my "valuable" vintage car?
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-04-08 18:50
So, what's the consensus on this type of upgrade/change to my "valuable" vintage car?
Rich
Who cares? As long as you're happy with the car what anybody else thinks really don't matter! I've been "resto moding" and restoring and hot rodding cars for years and it has been the person that builds the car that needs to be happy. So build what you want and the heck with what anyone else says. My 36 Chevy with a 351C really gets the Chevy guys going!!!!
I'm with Bill on this. If I had an extremly rare car...E or F code....I'd probably at least give it a lot of thought before I changed it from oem. As far as value is concerned, Imho changes or no changes doesn't matter as much as the quality of the work. In todays market many have gotten away from the "keep it stock" crowd because of improved technologies....
I appreciate the comments. I've never made this big a change to a car. And, I believe that the transplant of the 4.6L is a HUGE change. I was out in the garage last night with a tape measure. I found the dimensions for the engine on the internet. This will be a really tight fit. I'm not sure that the dimensions I found include the stuff on the front of the block, or was just the size of the block (28" long.)
Rich, I'm developing a "to do" list for this project that I would like to share with you when I finish it. Also, do you know of anyone that has completed this transplant? I'd like to correspond with them on a few issues. I've got 15 major items on my list now and none of those items have anything to do with the disassembly and reassembly of the front of the car just to gain decent access.
If anyone has pictures of this engine mounted in the car, I would love to see those too. My email address is listed on this site on my profile.
Rich
Rich in Arvada,
I never figured out a way to post pictures or i would send you what I have! You would probably get a better feel for this transplant by making that short drive down here and checking it out. With your help, we could temporarily install the radiator support and inner fenders to check the front engine clearance. I haven't done this as the inner fenders and support are still one piece and awkward to handle. Some modification of the radiator/support will probably be necessary, but shouldn't be too extensive.
You certainly have to make your own decision; its a lot easier to start this on a non-running project car stripped down to the frame rails. Even if your engine is free, I do think you will spend more on this conversion than rebuilding your y block. Yes, they do take gas but they really run nice when freshly rebuilt.
You really should go ahead with the disc brake change. Versailles wheels are 14 inch and will clear discs. I bought a set of these a while back at Webb's junkyard for my 57 tbird and they were too expensive. They wouldn't work under the rear fender skirts so I run two on the front plus the spare! You shouldn't have any of these problems with a full size car. Al
Quote from: 57dohc on 2013-04-09 11:08
Rich in Arvada,
I never figured out a way to post pictures or i would send you what I have!
I have never used the method that gasman mentions here. Sounds easy though. I use Photobucket. It is free or for a small fee you can get a 'Pro' account with just about unlimited storage. I got the Pro account so my pix won't ever disappear & it's pretty cheap.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2013-03-20 07:43
Pictures? Just below the Reply Box...hit the Additional Options (steel blue) button. Hit the Browse button at the end of the ATTACH box. Locate your picture directory (folder) and double click on the picture you want to share.
Rich....I had assumed you had read the older threads from a few years ago that were going on this forumn...mainly by Canadian Ranchero and Bob Claiborn. From your comments I'm guessing now you maybe haven't. In the thread with thousands of "hits", you will find a link reference to Claiborn's photo album with lots of pics. Also Canadian Ranchero had some pics posted that are quite helpful. Neither of thos members have been on the forumn for over a year. Also I'm going to try and post a link to another photo album that has a 4.6 installed. I'm going to bring those two older threads back to the top so you won't have to search much.
If you guys get together at Al's..let me know ahead of time..maybe I can make it up and make it a threesome.
This is Claiborn's photo album that corresponds to the thread he was doing with Canadian Ranchero
http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/
This next one was picked up thru the HAMB. The car was being built by someone who apparently died before completion, as the photos were posted by the person who inherited the car, and unfortunatly didn't know anything about it. It is the supercharged version that I mentioned had a problem with hood clearance, but I just noticed he has a stock, unmodified hood, so I guess it's not a problem. This car was the inspiration for me to make the final decision to go for it....don't like his interior though, but the rest of the car is outstanding.
http://www.carbuff.net/57_ford
As far as posting pics..it is as easy as Gary the Gasman said...as long as the pics are small enough for this forumn. Resizing is also easy.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-09 14:24
Rich....I had assumed you had read the older threads from a few years ago that were going on this forumn...mainly by Canadian Ranchero and Bob Claiborn. From your comments I'm guessing now you maybe haven't. In the thread with thousands of "hits", you will find a link reference to Claiborn's photo album with lots of pics. Also Canadian Ranchero had some pics posted that are quite helpful. Neither of thos members have been on the forumn for over a year. Also I'm going to try and post a link to another photo album that has a 4.6 installed. I'm going to bring those two older threads back to the top so you won't have to search much.
If you guys get together at Al's..let me know ahead of time..maybe I can make it up and make it a threesome.
This is Claiborn's photo album that corresponds to the thread he was doing with Canadian Ranchero
http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/
This next one was picked up thru the HAMB. The car was being built by someone who apparently died before completion, as the photos were posted by the person who inherited the car, and unfortunatly didn't know anything about it. It is the supercharged version that I mentioned had a problem with hood clearance, but I just noticed he has a stock, unmodified hood, so I guess it's not a problem. This car was the inspiration for me to make the final decision to go for it....don't like his interior though, but the rest of the car is outstanding.
http://www.carbuff.net/57_ford
Rich,
I just read through all of the thread with lots of hits. There is a lot going on here. I was impressed when the guy said they spent 300 hours on the project and they had a good shop with all the tools. I spent about 1,000 hours on the rebuild of a '37 Chevy a few years ago. I hit that thing almost every day, sometimes did 10 hours a day on it and finished the project in about 6 months. The only thing I did not rebuild was the differential. I think I touched every bolt on that car - BUT - that was a low tech project. This project is very high tech. I am very much of a DIY'er and would want to make sure that this project is within my abilities. My "todo" list is getting longer, as well as my shopping list.
I talked to Al today and we are planning to meet on May 4th. You would be a welcome addition to conference. If it looks like you can make it, we will give you more information.
Rich
To be honest, claiborn scared me off the project for quite a while. I was really waiting for Gary (Canadian Ranchero) to actually do his so I could get a better feel for the install...but for some reason we lost his input on the forum. The more I get involved in the swap, the better I'm feeling as far as making it work without having to scream for the help I can't afford. I piddled out in the garage for an hour tonight...dropped my rack and pinion so I could position the engine/tranny for a look-see, and I am reaaly happy with the way it's looking. I think the mods to the stock tranny crossmember will be simple even for a novice like myself. I've got a Rockies game to watch..so I'll get some pics posted in the morning.
May 4 may be doable...depends on if I go to the Pate swap meet , I think the week before.
Rich
Rich,
I have yet to decided if this is for me or not. It is going to be a real plus to see Al's project up close and personal. As to the date chosen, that will be after I return from a brief trip and a friend will be available to go along to "consult" on the project. If there is another date that works better for you and still works for the rest of us, throw it out for consideration.
I am working on a list of major tasks for the project. If anyone sees a glaring omission, let me know.
Rich
Purchase and install elect cooling fans (Lincoln MKVIII)
Purchase and install cold air Intake
Connect existing exhaust to new headers
Fuel System mods
Clean and Paint engine bay
Install new Engine mounts
Make modifications to engine/transmission mounts
Purchase Front sump oil pan, gasket & install on engine
Purchase and install new oil pickup
Purchase 4R70W Transmission
Purchase torque converter
Purchase and install MKVIII floor shifter
Drive shaft mods
Mount computer and connect wiring harness
Connect new wiring to existing ignition switch
Purchase and install cable accelerator linkage
Headers/exhaust manifolds...I think Claiborn used headers on his wagon install, every one else went with the Mustang Cobra oem's. Make sure they are from a dohc mustang. They have oval exahust ports...the sohc 4.6's have round ports...won't work. The GT's had sohc, cobra's had the dohc. Oddly, the passenger side cobra manifold has an oval outlet, while the driver's side has a round outlet. Go figure. The Mark engine used exhaust manifold that had the catalyctic converters welded directly to them just inches out of the engine...so no usable oval flange. I'm hoping the muffler companies are not going to have a problem getting an oval shaped flange for the pass. side.....don't know at this point. You will have to figure a way to weld in a bung for the oxygen sensors close as posible to the engine. The Mark viii computer recognizes one on each side, so you'll need those to keep the computer from throwing codes.
In addition to the Mark viii computer, you will need the engine control module (located in the engine compartment on top of the left wheel well. You may also need whatever connectors/harness are on the mark viii engine that may not be on yours.
You may want to have a look at the Ron Francis/ Detail Zone kit. alot of info on it on their site..including being able to look at the installation manual for it to see what's involved.
www.ronfrancis.com . On the left click "detail Zone fuel injection "
One omision I noticed..gas pedal linkage. The 4.6 uses a cable linkage. I pulled the entire setup off the mark...should be an easy install.
The jury is still out on whether or not the Mark viii cooling fans are usable. Since my front clip is off, and won't go back on until the engine is in...I'm a long way off from knowing. Unless you end up buying a Mark viii donor car, I'd hold off purchasing the fans until we know what there is room for. If you're thinking about a donor carcheck out the posts I did on the auto auctions...there's one in Denver.
The oil pick up tube...when I found the '95 Continental oil pan on ebay, I emailed the salvage yard to see if they also had the pick up tube. They added it to the pan for 10 bucks with no extra shipping costs. Total $ for both with shipping was less than $60.
Some pics of mine...First off, my car is levelled side to side, but is not at ride height. As the car sits now, it is level front to back, but final ride height will have about a 2 1/2-3" rake (dropped in the front). At this point I'm making sure I have enough room to work with to end up with about a 3 degree backwards angle on the engine without modifying the floorpan/firewall. The first pic is with the engine mounts snug, and the tranny sitting on top of the tranny crossmember. The engine in this position is about 7 degrees. The next pic shows the tranny jacked up so there is about 1/2 clearance between it and the floorboards. The engine sits at 4 1/2-5 degrees, and I have at least 2 inches of space between the tranny and the crossmember. The only clearance issue at this time is that I need to get the engine back about another 1 to 1 1/2 inches, but the tranny pan is hittng the front of the crossmember. The engine as it sits now is 5" from the firewall, and I need to get it to 4". The air intake on the intake manifold extends back from the engine/bellhousing surface about 3 1/2" (I need to confirm that), so another inch back and I should be in good shape.
a few more. I'll need some input from the engine swap gurus, but I'm thinking of modifying the stock crossmenber rather than replacing it. My thoughts are to cut a notch into the crossmember (red lined drawing), and weld in a 1/4 x 3 x 3 or 4 angle iron with one leg sitting on top of the oem crossmember, and of course the other leg to fit inside the cutout.
Note on the pic of the tranny tailpiece housing...that bracket hanging down is for the Mark viii exhaust support. The two studs with nuts are for the exhaust, and the two tranny mounting bolts are to the right, or front, of it. The angle iron I want to reinforce the crossmember with will sit on top of the oem tranny mounting flange, extending back another few inches with some gussets added.
Any comments on that plan??
Motor mounts...I discussed this once before, but I'll bring it back up. Both Canadian Ranchero and Claborn posted pics of the mounts. Both of theirs had the drivers side sitting flush and the passenger side at a slight angle. Both reported the passenger side pulled down flush when tightened. When I got my mounts, even with the plastic mock up block, I had the same thing. My thoughs were even though the passenger side would pull down...it is an aluminum block and I was worried about possibly creating too much stress on the block. Instead of just pulling it down, I opted for a spacer between the mount and the block on the top 2 bolts. The 3/16 thick washers you see in that pic (passenger side only) made the mount flush with the crossmember almost perfectly.
Any comments on my approach??
Also to remention what I had discussed in another post, the mounting studs for the two mounts are not in the same place...the passenger side is up about 3/8 (if I remember correctly) from the driver's side. That means the slot in the oem crossmember pad is in different locations side to side. It's hard to tell from the pic I took of the two mounts, but the left crossmember stud is off centered from everything..the right side is centered. This was confirmed to be correct as oem by the manufacturer of my mounts.
Other issues I haven't dealt with yet...I believe the oil filter plate on the Mark Viii engines has to be changed to one from a Crown Vic, and the somewhat crazy setup they have for the radiator hoses I have yet to figure out. I believe Canadian Ranchero planned on using a thermostat housing off a 4 cyl Taurus to reroute the hoses to fit the '57 oem locations on the radiator.
I sure miss Canadian Ranchero..hope he's ok. Oddly enough, I just checked his profile to see when he was last active, and it was a year ago today!!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-10 08:59
a few more. I'll need some input from the engine swap gurus, but I'm thinking of modifying the stock crossmenber rather than replacing it. My thoughts are to cut a notch into the crossmember (red lined drawing), and weld in a 1/4 x 3 x 3 or 4 angle iron with one leg sitting on top of the oem crossmember, and of course the other leg to fit inside the cutout.
Note on the pic of the tranny tailpiece housing...that bracket hanging down is for the Mark viii exhaust support. The two studs with nuts are for the exhaust, and the two tranny mounting bolts are to the right, or front, of it. The angle iron I want to reinforce the crossmember with will sit on top of the oem tranny mounting flange, extending back another few inches with some gussets added.
Any comments on that plan??
Rich,
Is the cut you are showing on the cross member because of interference with the pan on the transmission? I would be reluctant to remove that much of the cross member. This new setup will have a huge boost in HP, I would not want to weaken this support. Does the cross member need to move rearward? If so, I think I have an easy solution to move it, but I think you would then have to modify the parking brake cable attachment.
My direct email is listed under my profile. Send me a message, I would like to talk to you.
Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-10 08:37
Headers/exhaust manifolds...I think Claiborn used headers on his wagon install, every one else went with the Mustang Cobra oem's. Make sure they are from a dohc mustang. They have oval exahust ports...the sohc 4.6's have round ports...won't work. The GT's had sohc, cobra's had the dohc. Oddly, the passenger side cobra manifold has an oval outlet, while the driver's side has a round outlet. Go figure. The Mark engine used exhaust manifold that had the catalyctic converters welded directly to them just inches out of the engine...so no usable oval flange. I'm hoping the muffler companies are not going to have a problem getting an oval shaped flange for the pass. side.....don't know at this point. You will have to figure a way to weld in a bung for the oxygen sensors close as posible to the engine. The Mark viii computer recognizes one on each side, so you'll need those to keep the computer from throwing codes.
In addition to the Mark viii computer, you will need the engine control module (located in the engine compartment on top of the left wheel well. You may also need whatever connectors/harness are on the mark viii engine that may not be on yours.
You may want to have a look at the Ron Francis/ Detail Zone kit. alot of info on it on their site..including being able to look at the installation manual for it to see what's involved.
www.ronfrancis.com . On the left click "detail Zone fuel injection "
One omision I noticed..gas pedal linkage. The 4.6 uses a cable linkage. I pulled the entire setup off the mark...should be an easy install.
The jury is still out on whether or not the Mark viii cooling fans are usable. Since my front clip is off, and won't go back on until the engine is in...I'm a long way off from knowing. Unless you end up buying a Mark viii donor car, I'd hold off purchasing the fans until we know what there is room for. If you're thinking about a donor carcheck out the posts I did on the auto auctions...there's one in Denver.
Rich,
The gas peddle linkage is the last item on my list. I am not considering purchasing a donor car. My engine has a complete wiring harness that was intended to be set up as a test bed engine. From what my friend tells me, this is a more flexible setup than a production engine. In the next few weeks, I will know more about it.
Rich
Rich..yes, the cutout is to clear the tranny pan so I can move it back another inch or so. The metal removed would be replaced with the 1/4 wall angle iron which should make it stronger than it is now. I was just talking about my idea with my hot rod shop buddy, and he suggests moving the crossmember back using angle stock on the frame where the oem crossmember is currently bolted on. That's a simplified explanation, but I'm guessing your idea is probably the same.
For me to send an email thru this forumn requires that I have Microsoft outlook..which I don't have on this computer, and haven't been able to install cause the password from my internet supplier is unknown at this time. That's the kind of stuff this novice computer guy is driven nuts by.
Also, for the past 2 or 3 days my computer has been acting up..almost anything to do with yahoo wont load..including my email. Even logging on to some websites, like this one or mlb.com is taking 3 or 4 minutes. Once I get to the website it's working normally, so I don't know what the problem is.
Rich,
Actually, my idea is even simpler and will result in a stronger attachment to the frame. I assume the distance to moved is only a few inches. Since the cross member is installed in a part of the frame where the side rails are not parallel, all you have to do is install a shim on each side of the cross member at the flange where it bolts to the frame. The thickness of the shim will determine how far to the rear the cross member will be moved. The shim will need to be at least as high as the flange on the cross member and will need to reach forward to the existing bolt holes and then go beyond the cross member to the rear for a few inches. Weld the shim to the existing flange on the cross member. On the forward part of the shim, drill it to match the hole layout for the existing holes, on the rear part of the shim drill at least two holes and then drill and tap the frame so you can bolt it on. I am guessing that the shim will be in the range of about 1/2" on each side. If you don't have a welder, you could drill holes in the shim and bolt the shim to the cross member. Use flathead bolts and counter sink the back side of the shim so that the shim will still lay flat against the frame rails. Lots of words to explain a simple process. If I understand the problem, then this may be a solution.
My number is 303-422-9510, lets talk. I am not available on Thursday's at all, I volunteer at the Colorado Railroad Museum (in the roundhouse) during the day. I am home most evenings.
Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-10 09:47
Motor mounts...I discussed this once before, but I'll bring it back up. Both Canadian Ranchero and Claborn posted pics of the mounts. Both of theirs had the drivers side sitting flush and the passenger side at a slight angle. Both reported the passenger side pulled down flush when tightened. When I got my mounts, even with the plastic mock up block, I had the same thing. My thoughs were even though the passenger side would pull down...it is an aluminum block and I was worried about possibly creating too much stress on the block. Instead of just pulling it down, I opted for a spacer between the mount and the block on the top 2 bolts. The 3/16 thick washers you see in that pic (passenger side only) made the mount flush with the crossmember almost perfectly.
Any comments on my approach??
Also to remention what I had discussed in another post, the mounting studs for the two mounts are not in the same place...the passenger side is up about 3/8 (if I remember correctly) from the driver's side. That means the slot in the oem crossmember pad is in different locations side to side. It's hard to tell from the pic I took of the two mounts, but the left crossmember stud is off centered from everything..the right side is centered. This was confirmed to be correct as oem by the manufacturer of my mounts.
Would a washer like this work better? It is the type used in bolting structural pieces that have tapered flanges. They come in all different sizes.
Rich
Just thinking out loud but if you move the cross member back you may start to have problems with the park brake cables, but only if you are using the stock park brake system ?
When I installed my AOD I to had to notch the cross member a lot . What I did was to use a piece of heavy walled tubing that I slid inside the full length of the cross member with a slight bend to follow the curve then welded it in . Made the cross member more ridged then in stock form.
I will try to post a pic in the next day or so
The cross member notch reminds me of the C6/AOD notch. Hundreds of those have been done. What you cut out, you must replace. Moving the cross member rearward is a pain.
The notching was my original idea, and I agree it seems like the easiest to do as well as keeping the original parking brake cable system intact. I think I will go that way after getting your input...I just won't tell my buddy. LOL. I've gotten alot of valuable info from him.
The tappered washer is probably a better way to go than the flat washer...I'll keep an eye out for them...or make 'em...thanks.
The stock cross member is a strong piece, notch it out and weld in the plate or angle iron.
Rich..enjoyed our conversation. I got to thinking after I hung up...you said you may have a chance to get some better pics of your friend's engine sometime soon. If you can, get some good pics of both sides of the exhaust manifolds so we can figure out what you have...you may not need to procure the Mustang manifolds.
Also forgot to ask..is the friend that is going with you to Al's the same one we talked about that worked for Ford?
Rich
:thumbsup:Sounds like a thumbs up to me. Thanks for the additional confirmation.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-10 20:18
Rich..enjoyed our conversation. I got to thinking after I hung up...you said you may have a chance to get some better pics of your friend's engine sometime soon. If you can, get some good pics of both sides of the exhaust manifolds so we can figure out what you have...you may not need to procure the Mustang manifolds.
Also forgot to ask..is the friend that is going with you to Al's the same one we talked about that worked for Ford?
Rich
No, the guy that I'm planning on bringing is someone that has lots of experience in this kind of stuff. If you have any questions for my friend that did the research work for Ford, I will be glad to pass them along.
I have heard from my friend and Friday will work for pictures. I will take pictures and make measurements and make the information available to anyone that want's it.
Yes, I did enjoy our conversation. I'm sure that you will be a big help to me, I don't know that I will do much from you except drain your memory.
I hope you can make the meeting of the minds at Al's in Colorado Springs on May 4th.
Rich
Rich and Rich,
I do hope you both will be able to make it on the 4th. I will welcome any suggestions to make the project easier. Of course, will also give opinions regardless of worth! Al
Al,
I'm sure it will be a real learning experience for us all.
One question for today. I know that Rich is installing a different steering column, but I don't know if it is necessary. Will the engine fit using the original steering column?
Thanks,
Rich
Really has less to do with the steering column than the fact that I had switched to Rack and pinion steering which eliminated the bulky steering box. I wanted the R & P set-up from the get-go, so that decision was made long before the engine decision...just worked out that it made it easier...I think. I have tons of room in that area, not sure about the bellhousing hitting the rack itself at this point, but I think after I modify the tranny crossmember so I can push the engine back another inch, everything will clear.
I am under the opinion from Claborn's install that the stock steering box/column will clear.If you have oem power steering, the steering arms and linkage, etc. may need to be relocated 1/2" or so forward. He had pics and details of that in one of those threads.
Guys I'm having a real tough time with deciding on Colorado on the fourth, or my annual-never-miss-it trip to Fort Worth the week before for the Pate Swap meet. Can't afford both trips with my Gas guzzler. I'll let you know for sure as the date gets closer.
I have removed all steering linkage from my car but I don't anticipate a clearance problem with the steering gearbox with the exhaust manifolds I have. I had intended to go to rack and pinion steering anyway.
The H-pipe from the Mach connects nicely in the 57 and runs quite close to the transmission which should afford good clearance in this area. The cobra should be the same. This h-pipe also includes the co2 sensors and might be a less expensive alternative to a custom exhaust if you can find one used.
If you want, we can hold this section in the car and you can measure the clearance in that area on your visit. Al
I had a few moments in the garage today. Finally lifted the radiator support and inner fenders in place to get some measurements for the radiator clearance. I have 8.25 inches of clearance from the flange of the radiator support to the crankshaft pulley. 7 inches of clearance to the attachment bolt on the fan tension bracket which is the most proud point of the engine front. The electric fan I have from the mustang is 5.5 inches but should fit with no problem with a radiator flush with the front of support and still give 3 inches of clearance for the front coolant hose that drops down in front of the engine. This is the same clearance the Mustang had. An oem 57 radiator might work with a more slim fan depending on width. Does anyone the width of the orginal radiator or the aftermarket aluminum ones (Auto City?) some members have purchased? That might be to easy.! Al
Al...would you reword your last sentence so I can understand what it is your looking for. I've got the auto city alum. one as well as my orig. 6 cyl. You don't have your original radiator? Unless we get some rainy days where I can't work outside, my '57 is on hold for a while :sad10:
Rich;
I was hoping to get the width or depth of the after market aluminum radiator or how far it sits out from that radiator support. I'm trying to determine if it will be more economical to get a custom made radiator that fits to the front side of the radiator support or to get a oem type which will require the purchase of both the radiator and fan. I think either can be made to work but want to consider both options. Thanks! Al
Al...go to the thread we had going on moving the radiator forward. It is in the general discusion area. On the first page, there are some pics that I think show at least some of the dim's your looking for.
Rich
Quote from: 57dohc on 2013-04-12 11:49
I have removed all steering linkage from my car but I don't anticipate a clearance problem with the steering gearbox with the exhaust manifolds I have. I had intended to go to rack and pinion steering anyway.
The H-pipe from the Mach connects nicely in the 57 and runs quite close to the transmission which should afford good clearance in this area. The cobra should be the same. This h-pipe also includes the co2 sensors and might be a less expensive alternative to a custom exhaust if you can find one used.
If you want, we can hold this section in the car and you can measure the clearance in that area on your visit. Al
After more research, I've come to the conclusion that I too will go to rack & pinion steering. I've been on the other forum and found that the Chevy Cavalier rack from the late '80 will work. Someone posted part numbers and the rack is only $111 at NAPA, that's a deal. I've also found how to modify the existing steering column and adapt the horn to work. It's all right here on this website.
If you are interested, my pictures show the lifting brackets provided by the factory. I did visit the engine at the warehouse where it is stored. It's 16' up on some heavy duty shelving. Not easy to walk around when you get up there. They still haven't found the computer or some of the parts to the wiring harness. They are not done looking, but I am not too hopeful on this issue. The left side manifold is missing, but I have a good picture of the right side. Can anyone confirm if this type will work or do I need to get both sides?
I do have the air filter/intake box, including an air horn. I guess this all mounts in the right wheel well. It's pretty large, but if the battery is relocated, it may fit. Are any of you guys using this large box?
Thanks,
Rich
Rich...somehow missed this post yesterday. I'll have to confirm later today what I'm gonna tell you, but those pics pretty much confirm my suspicions that is a Lincoln engine, not a Mustang. Of course I have no way of knowing if it was modified internally (cams). That right Manifold is the same as what is on the '94 Linconln Mark viii I pulled. The problem is not with that manifold side, but with the left side..it is substantially different. The side you have may or may not work, but it is a mute point since the driver's side definetly is too big. I'll post some pics of mine later so you can see.
The engine in your pics has the same PN as mine..4G814AA..and was made 2 weeks after mine (mine 8-15-93).
PS..My wife must be feeling guilty 'cause I've started working on the house again..she told me she thinks I should do both the Pate swap meet in FW and meet you guys in Colo. the week after.
Rich
The only thing I know about this engine is what my friend has told me.
I am getting a pretty long list of things that need to be bought and get done. I emailed with Ron Francis this morning and found that not only does this project need the engine management wiring harness (MK-93 for $920,) there is another kit that needs to be added to wire up all of the accessories (XP-67 for $469.)
After my visit with Al, and you too it is now sounding like, I will be able to start procuring parts.
Rich
I visited one of my friends on Sunday who is a avid collector and just happened to get a mark 8 drive train. Its "supposed" to be a good engine which includes the trans as well as most of the wiring. Manufacture date on the engine is 9-11-1996. This guy has way too many things and I know he will never get around to using it. He has a least 20 old cars in his yard, mostly old mercurys including convertibles and woodie wagons with mountains of fenders and spare parts. Throw in hundreds of oil signs and pumps and you get the idea. He only lives 2 miles from me and it would be an interesting tour.
If you are interested, it might be worth a shot to try and talk him out of this drive train if it gives you the parts you need. Since it was simply given to him, it might be cheap. Al
Al,
It's sure worth a tour and a discussion. Thanks for the tip. This engine will have the front sump oil pan, right?
Friday I am going to tour three Lincoln's in a junk yard in Denver just to see what I could harvest from them. I am not going to buy anything until after I visit with you and hopefully Rich on May 4th. By the way, what time works for you? You are about 90 minutes from me, but maybe 6 hours from Rich.
According to my sister, you guys did not get much of the storm we had yesterday. We had 14" of snow at my house and we have a chance for more tomorrow.
Rich
Rich,
This engine is the same one you have a line on. I thought the transmission and wiring might be of interest to you. I don;t know if the computer was there but quite possible.
You will need to look for a DOHC Lincoln continental for your oil pan. Front wheel drive from about 1993 to 2001. I'm guessing on the years but should be close. Al
Al,
It has to be the Continental, not the Mark VIII? The Pull and Pay salvage yard that I was going to visit has three Mark VIII's, but no Continental's. Yes, I am very interested in your friend's drive train.
If his stuff is not complete, or available, I would like to strip a Continental then for lots of parts. The engine wiring and power wiring harness's are like gold from Ron Francis. My electrical skills are a good solid okay, and, I have the service manual. I ought to be able to figure this out (I think.) I am working on a shopping list.
Like I said, I'm not buying anything until after we meet.
Rich
Rich...didn't have a chance to untarp the '94 engine and get some pics of the exhaust manifolds we were talking about..raining today. The Mk-93 is the kit I had been talking about. I'll have to check into the accesories kit you mentioned to see if I also needed that. I've got their express kit partially installed. That sounds like your looking into the overall wiring in yours to see if the oem harness is going to be overworked with the 4.6 stuff added on.
Al... a tour of your neighbor's property sounds like another reason to get my butt up there on the 4th. The build date on the Mark viii drivetrain he has would put that in a '97 Mark...which means it is designed with the PATS system and other stuff that complicates the install. I'm not sure about the tranny though. A search on the Mark viii forumn may get some info on whether thae '97 tranny is usable on the 93-96 engines without complicating the electronic controls.
opps..missed your last few posts when I typed the above.
Rich, as Al said the oil pan and oil pick up tube you need has to come off a front wheel drive continental. The Marks and towncars had the rear sump, the front-wheel drive Continental is the only one that has the front sump. I think that is all you'll need from the Continental...most everything else will be from donor Mark viii's.
Any time to meet will be ok with me...I'll be driving up to the Springs the day before. I always stay at the Rainbow motel in Manitou....when I sold my house I stayed there for about 6 weeks while I was finishing up business stuff..really a cool area.
To reiterate what I mentioned in the above post..the mk-93 kit will not work with the drivetrain Al's friend has, and even if he has the computer, it will need to be reprogrammed. Just as a reference...I can pick up computers and engine control modules in this area for 20-25 bucks each.
Gonna grab a few just so I'll have some spares for years down the road.
Rich,
Ignorance is a terrible thing, but I have a good supply. Is the powertrain control module and the "computer" the same thing?
The powertrain control module is Ford part number 12A650, however, as far as I know, this number comes with both a prefix and a suffix. I don't know what those numbers should be for this engine. What does the computer do and where is it in the electrical system?
If you have access to these for the prices you mention below, and if it's convenient, throw them in and bring them along. I will be glad to pay you for them.
Al, what time works best for you for a visit on May 4th? Let me know, email your address and I will be there.
Rich
Computer and engine control module are two different things. The computer is inside, on the left side firewall up above and left of the brake pedal. The engine control module is in the engine compartment on top of the drivers side strut tower. I honestly don't know which does what. Combined, they control stuff like shift points on the tranny, fuel/air mixture, intake runners (the secondariy runners that open/close at 3,000 rpm),cooling fans,...just tons of stuff.
The marks had variable steering ratio that would adjust to different speeds keeping the car from being too touchy at high speeds, and a suspension system that would lower the car by 1 1/4 at 50 mph. The intake tubes would operate one one intake up to 3000 rpm, when it would open the second runners. All of this stuff, has to be controled by the computer or module from reading all of the sensors. The '97 and up systems also had the Passive Anti Theft system (PATS) that intergrated lots of stuff you don't want to deal with. Those cars are recognized by the door/ignition keys that have the chip built into the key.
The traction control system, btw, as I understand it, is actually a brake system function.
I will get pic posted as soon as time and weather permit. I have to figure out what I did with the engine control modul..my garage is just a mess right now.
I'll try to get over to the salvage yard and get those parts pulled before we meet...I was going to anyway. I saw them last fall just before winter set in..hopefully they're still there.
Rich;
Given our never ending winter conditions, We should probably plan for the afternoon to give it a chance to warm up a bit. I know you have selected a place to stay, but you are sure welcome to stay with us. It might help offset the cost of fuel coming up here! I'm sure your "consulting" has to be worth some sort of offset.
My email is sparky0645@yahoo.com and cell # 719-650-3323.
If you are going to be around for a few days and are interested in fly fishing, I have plenty of extra equipment. Spinney reservior should be open by then and fishing for large trout from shore can be exceptional. For me cars are a hobby but fishing is more of a obsession!
Al
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-18 08:50
The traction control system, btw, as I understand it, is actually a brake system function.
Yes it is, as soon as the system understands there is a loss of traction it retards the timing and modulates the brake on the spinning wheel. It can be disabled but needs to be disabled each time the ingnition turned back on, at least my 98 LSC did that.
Bill
Al...."consulting",LOL, heck, I was working on my list of questions. Thanks for the offer of a place to stay, but the Manitou location is perfect for me as I'll probably do my usual...hit the Springs late afternoon, check in to my room, and head on "up the hill" to Cripple Creek until the wee hours.
My cell is 806-341-2036. I'm sure looking forward to this trip..been snowed out of my last few planned trips there. Some of my old friends from that area have passed on (one you may have heard of... Tom Dooley), and others I've just lost tract of. Trying to find them on the internet, but so far no luck. The gallery in Old Colorado City I was partners in for years closed a few years ago...they were my source of up to date info on where everyone was. Hoping to make a contact or two with them on this trip.
Rich...I ended up with an extra Mark viii shop manual. It's a '93 but most things should be relavent to about '96. I'll bring that along with me if you want it..a freebie.
Bill..that's pretty much as I thought it worked except I wasn't aware of the timing being retarded. Thanks for the info.
Rich,
This is information given to me by the guy that has the engine. It is in response to what type of power train control module that it requires.
"The 12A650 PCM code is common to EEC platforms from the 80?s on. What you need is the balance of the information. There will be a 4 digit prefix and a 3 digit suffix that looks like the following XXXX-12A650-XXX. The engine itself is setup for a 60 pin EEC-IV so unless you change the engine loom you will need that configuration.
Another way to find the EEC-IV you need is by matching it to the engine code, 4G-814-AA. Best bet would still be an EEC-IV from a 93-95 Mk VIII but as long as you match the engine code you will be ok."
In addition, I've been looking on the internet for info on how to decode Ford part numbers. This is from a Mustang site, but it may be of help. http://www.classicmustang.com/decoding_part_numbers.htm
Here is a site that sells ECU/ECM's. http://www.ecmtogo.com/fordecmecupcm.htm
In my 1994 Mark VIII service, these terms are not used (that I can find.) I've included a scan of a page that shows the wiring harness under the dash. I can't find anything indicating a computer. Item #22 looks like it could be, but that is the "Air bag diagnostic Monitor."
What have you guys paid for your front sump oil pan/oil pickup? I've located one for $90, but don't know if that a good price or even how rare they are.
Rich
PS - I've been trying to post this message with picture since last night without luck. I'll try it again now without the attachment.
Well, it worked, but I don't know why it does not like my attachment. It's the right format and not too large. Anyway, in my 1994 manual, the picture I was trying to send is on page 01-12-22. This is the title of the page: Instrument panel and console, disassembly and assembly, (continued) Harness Installation.
I'll get a pic of the computer in the '95 Mark....and the engine module. Sounds like you already have a repair manual for the Marks??
I could have picked up a pan and tube from a local yard here for 35.but that would have meant lugging jacks and tool boxes to the back side of their large lot and dealing with sticker bushes..I found one on ebay for 40 ish..about 55. with shipping if I remember correctly.
90 is too high..those cars are pretty abundant.
That Ron Francis xp-67 you mentioned is the main wiring harness that'll replace everything in your car. Not sure mine was that exact number, but it is the Express kit. I think by the time I got thru adding on extras I was a few hundred more than that though. Excellent excellent harness. Talk to me before you order this though so I can make some suggestions.
Finally some pics. First one is where the computer is located to the left of the brake pedal. It's behind a plastic cover and you can just see one corner of it. red x. The second is the plastic cover over the engine contol module on the drivers side strut tower. A pic of both..hopefully you can zoom in on the '94's p.n.
Edit....that last pic is incorrect. As explained in a later post, the black finned module is not the engine control module.
These three are of the '94's exhaust. You can see the right side looks to be the same as in the pic of your friend's. Also you can see how much further the left side sticks out. The third pic is a part you may or may not have on your friends engine..it's a tranny to bellhousing aluminum spacer about 1/8 thick. I have no idea what the reason for it is other than to fix an engineering f.u.
I didn't pull it off the engine because it appears the flexplate has to come off to remove it..but maybe not...I didn't need it, so I didn't fiddle with it too much.
Got a baseball game coming on...go Rockies!!!
Rich,
Thanks a lot for the pictures. I appreciate it very much. I'll forward your picture with the added plate on the back of the engine and see if my friend knows what it is for.
As to the Rockies, you better enjoy what's going on now, who knows how long it will last. This morning they are still in 1st place. From last year's "worst" to current "First." Amazing!
Rich
Rich and Rich,
I believe the plate you two are talking about is used as a starter locating shim. It keeps the starter motor properly indexed & spaced for correct engagement with the flywheel.
Have a good one,
Thor
x2 You need the block plate.
Al, Rich..are we still looking good for next Saturday?
Rich;
We sure are. Looking forward to meeting both you guys! Al
Saw it mentioned here but didn't know what a 'Coyote engine' was & had to look it up.
Anyway, for what little it's worth, I got this ...
https://www.circsource.com/store/multititleoffer.html?offerId=294&sourceCode=I3DQ44
Maybe old news or no use to you guys. No idea what issue the Hot Rod mag is but mentioned on the cover of the preview issue is the 'Coyote engine swap guide'.
So, Tom...you're selling magazines now? LOL
Al...I'm looking forward to our meet also. send me a pm with your address and phone numbers. Hopefully no more snow!!
Don't get duped into buying one of those "takeout" Coyote 5.0 motors for $11-12000. Don't get me wrong, they are great motors, an easy 400 hp, but you can buy them brand new from Ford for something like $6600 with 0 miles on them. All you need then is the EEC harness and hardware, etc. There is a guy here in Gulfport that put one in an 87 or so Fox Mustang, went from 12 sec ETs with a Windsor motor to low 11s out of the box with just the engine swap. Is running mid 10's now, all motor. Great deal.
Al...Our meeting time on Saturday...I think after talking to Rich yesterday, an earlier time might be better for him, and in thinking about it, would probably be better for me, as I may (or not)drive home to Texas afterwards. So if that works for you and Rich, I'm thinking 2 pm would still give me time to do the Pueblo show. If not, absolutly no problem..we'll just leave it a 4.
Rich
P.S...haven't got thru to Jon (hogwagon) yet..will keep trying
Rich;
2:00 would be fine or whenever you can get here. There is a 20% chance of rain for late afternoon (probably snow the way this year is-snowing right now!) so earlier would be better. Hope everyone can make it. Al
I'll see ya at 2ish then. Just wanted to mention if you need to do even a last minute cancel because of the family health issues...absolutly no problem. Can't remember if I gave you my cell #, 806-341-2036
Rich
Al, Rich...I talked to Jon (Hogwagon) yesterday and he and his wife, Sue, are going to take a break from their hectic schedule and meet with us on Saturday. I'm really looking forward to this. Four forumn members..how cool is that!
Al...I told Jon I'd ask you to email him the Map with your address that Rich forwarded to me yeaterday.
Jon...there are two of us "Richs" involved here in case you were just picking up on the end of this thread.
Rich
Rich;
I don't have Hogwagons email address to forward that map. If you have it , prehaps could send it on. Or he could call me for directions. Hope he does come; I do have a 5.0 efi conversion on a early Mustang here. Not a 57, but he might pick up some ideas. Al
Al, Jon, Rich,
The weather looks okay for tomorrow and I'm looking forward to seeing everyone. I'll drive down in my '57 just to give it a good workout on the highway, if it rains it won't be a disaster.
See everyone at about 2:00. I will give myself a little margin and leave a few minutes early.
Rich (Arvada, Co.)
Quote from: Tom S on 2013-04-26 14:46
No idea what issue the Hot Rod mag is but mentioned on the cover of the preview issue is the 'Coyote engine swap guide'.
June issue.
A few tips I picked up in Colorado...The first is a pic of Al's exaust pipes from the '04 Mach1. The next pics are from a '56 Ford at the Pueblo River Walk car show. He is using a 4.6 sohc block, with dohc heads and intake from a mark viii. The Mark intake protrudes past the plane of the bellhousing about 3 1/2". He was able to gain back some of that "lost working room" by building an adapter to move the throttle linkage up and forward. It's hard to tell from the pics, but he used 2 pieces of exaust pipe elbows to fab the adapter. The last pic is a copy of the one Rich K. posted that shows the original configuration of the throttle linkage plate.
Rich/Al/Jon,
I had a great time on visiting Saturday afternoon.
Thinking about the engine mount, I think I can fabricate a cap to sit over the existing mount made out of steel the same thickness as the original mount. This would be an upside down side "U" shape with a slotted hole for the mounting bolt to go through. I think that's why Ford used a slotted hole in the original, so the angled bolt could be dropped down through the slot. The new cap would be welded to the existing mount. I made a crude sketch on the attached photo. If you guys think this will work, I will make some for all of us. I will need some exact measurements on the old mount, but that can wait. I will make an accurate drawing but will need help with accurate dimensions.
Rich
Rich;
I was thinking about doing the same thing after our meeting on Saturday. Looking at the Mustang mounts and their teardrop shaped bolt opening to accomodate the angle change when the engine is lifted out. The plate welded on top of the mount would not significantly change the height of the engine and sure prevent the drivetrain from sliding forward out of the slots I have cut in the existing motor mounts to the crossmember. The transmission crossmember/mount on the manual transmission I will be using has already had a history of cracked tailshaft housings and extra movement would make the problem worse.
I really enjoyed our meeting and look forward working out these problems. If you need help lifting off the front clip etc., I will be glad to give you a hand. I'm sure I can talk Marty into helping as well! Thanks! Al
I think the plate idea is good...as you said, the thickness of the plate isn't going to affect engine height enough to be of concern. I had planned on just welding a 1/8 plate to the top of the oem's.
I can get accurate dimensions of the oem mounting bracket, and Al can verify them to hopefully confirm the same sizes. The problem we'll have at this point is determining where the slot should be, front to back, and keeping in mind the Mustang motor mounts studs are not the same on each side, so the slots will have to be different locations heightwise. The Mustang block Al is using probably has more latitude front to back than the Mark viii's because of the intake. What I'm saying is a slot location on your proposed brackets that works for Al may not work for us...but not the inverse. The studs on the Mustang mounts are quite long also, so that slot would have to be very long....of course we could probably shorten the Mustang studs a bit to help. One thing I would have liked to look at more than I did was whether or not we can get to the 3 bolts that hold the mounts to the engine when it is sitting in the car. If we can, then all we need is a hole to mount the motor mounts loosely in before dropping the engine onto them.
Speaking of the lincolns weird throttle body location. Here is a solution one of slick 60s members came up with. Theres piks on page 10,11,12.
http://www.slick60s.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10877&hilit=intake&start=180
Rich and/or Al if you find a piece of channel I can slot it on a mill at work. Get me some numbers there may be something to cut up at the shop. Al I found the radiator we took out if you want to use it as a setup tool. Jon
Quote from: 62galxe on 2013-05-08 20:12
Speaking of the lincolns weird throttle body location. Here is a solution one of slick 60s members came up with. Theres piks on page 10,11,12.
http://www.slick60s.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10877&hilit=intake&start=180
Thanks for posting..the intake adapter is basically what the '56 guy in Pueblo did, but the thread you linked has some great how-to pics, as well as some great pics of other details. The COP system he is using I was going to look into as far as whether or not it can be used with a stock computer. I want to do what ever it takes to run the car with an oem computer.I like the clean look of the no plug wires.
Jon...I believe Rich was talking about having some heavy gage sheetmetal formed into the u shape the size we would need rather than channel. LOL..spent 15 years running a Bridgeport..sure wish I had one now. Making decent slots in stuff is one of the pain in the ass things to do without a mill. Thanks for your offer.
Jury duty yesterday and today
Quote from: hogwagon on 2013-05-08 21:20
Rich and/or Al if you find a piece of channel I can slot it on a mill at work. Get me some numbers there may be something to cut up at the shop. Al I found the radiator we took out if you want to use it as a setup tool. Jon
Jon,
I have access to an "Iron Man" and can punch the slotted holes. I was just going to make a mandrel the size of the motor mount pad and bend some flat plate around it. If locating the slotted hole is too much trouble, that can be done later, but I think the motor mount cap can be moved fore and aft for an adjustment then welded in place. We shall see.
It may even be that Rich's suggestion to just use a piece of flat plate and weld it in position would work too. Judging from the picture I took at Al's, the weight of the engine will still mostly be directly over the existing pad. I was thinking that by bending the cap it would be stronger.
Rich
I came up with an even simpler solution this afternoon. BTW, rain in the forecast for today and tommorrow, so I get to work on my '57 for a few days...YEAH.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced the verticle slot is going to work, so I thought of this....a 1/8" plate the size of the top area of the oem bracket with a stud clearance hole and one leg bent down about 1/2" to catch the back side of the oem bracket. Think of the plate as a big washer that goes between the Mustang mount and the oem mounting bracket. Just keep the nut and lockwashers loose enough to allow that 1/2 leg to get into position, and tighten 'er down! That leg, along with the tranny mount should keep any forward movement from happening. I can sketch and scan it if I'm not making sense here. no welding, no slotting, just a simple single brake and one hole.
I'm on my way back to the garage to pull the tranny crossmember out so I can get the block and tranny in the position I want.
Tiny steps at a time I guess...I slid the engine mock-up forward and deepened the slots I had in the oem bracket so I could gain another inch backwards. The plane of the bellhousing was @ 5" from the firewall, and I want to get it to 4" so I will have room for the throttle body/intake up top, and clear the Rack and pinion down below.
I did get my tranny crossmember removed so I could push the mock-up unit back that 1", but I of course ran into another problem. The Continental front sump oil pan has an out-of-square configuration on the back side of the deep portion, putting it about an inch closer to the engine crossmember on the driver's side than the passenger side. Of couse I was looking previously at the passenger side so I thought I had plenty of clearance to go back..but I could only go back 1/2" instaed of the full inch I wanted. Hmmm I really want that other 1/2", so I guess I'll pull the oil pan and see if the inside baffles and stuff will let me do some cutting and welding.
decided to rework the oil pan for an additional 1/2" push back. got it started, but I'll probably pull the baffle out tommorrow so I can get in there and clean up the burrs and oil deposits before I weld..don't want loose metal stuff in there!
well, sheeeet..just realized I'm putting the cart before the horse. I never checked to see where the oil pick up tube will be located before I started cutting. I may be ok..or I may be looking for another oil pan.
Does anyone with a front sump oil pan remember how close it is to the area I'm reworking?
Edit...cancel that..just went out and looked at the pick up tube and there's no way it's anywhere near the reworked area. LOL ..."I just love it when a plan comes together"
I went back and checked the thread that Claiborn and Canadian Ranchero were doing. I thought I had remembered him saying he thought about modifying the pan with a hammer..anyway..this confirms the issue I had with the oil pan and the R & P..although his is the stock oem power steering.
quote from Claborn:..."The main fitment problem is the power steering ram and components. After shortening the swingarm stud and fitting the engine as far to the rear as possible, there is still insufficient clearance between the power ram and the front of the bell housing. We could get more rearward movement if we modified the oil pan with a hammer but; our solution is to reposition the Ram/Idler Arm bracket about 3/8 of an inch forward of the stock position on the frame rail. It's a very, very tight fit."
Before I get too deep into the welding, I'm just gonna do a few tacks to hold it as it clamped now, then check the fitment to see if it gives me enough room for the R&P. This is also gonna help with cooling fan room. I also noted that Claborn side the EGR valve was the closest thing to the firewall..I need to check where that is..my guess is it's one of those gizmos attached to the throttle body
Rich;
I sure hope I won't have to go through all this! I was aware of the pan offset but was hoping clearance would be adequate with the transmission I am using. It made me realize that I should get a steering system mocked up before the final fitment of the engine/transmission mounts. By the way, I do have an extra oil pan if you make too many cuts!
Good thinking on the motor mounts: I had thought about the same thing but seem to remember the back edge of the frame mounting plates does not allow much of an edge to work with. I was even thinking of a plate where detents could be fabricated to slip in the orginal mounting holes and prevent forward movement when tighten down. Al
Al....'morning to ya! I did it just to make sure I wouldn't have to go back and do it later. I was wanting as much room up front for the cooling fans, and since that can't be determined for sure how much space I need or have until the clip back on..and that's a long way from now. As soon as I can snag someone to help me lift the awkward R&P stuff back into position, I'll know if it now clears the bellhousing, or if it was even necessary for that piece of the puzzle. The mock up unit I'm using of course doesn't have the crankcase pulley on it, or even a timing chain cover, so I couldn't reference that 8 1/4 dimension you came up with. Where is the plane of your bellhousing sit from the firewall? I just put a tape measure on the verticle part of the wall just above the tranny tunnel and eyeballed the plane of the bellhousing. With the oil pan alteration, I did get mine moved back to the 4" dim. I was shooting for with an 1/8" clearance oil pan to engine crossmember. So now I can pull it out and get it welded up.
After I posted my suggestion of the one legged plate, I noticed that the right oem engine mounting bracket was not as tall as the left side, leaving not a whole lot to grab onto as you said. Your idea of something fitting into the existing slots should work just fine...good thinking.
With a 1/2" mod to the oil pan, I now have about 5/8-3/4 (eyeballing) of clearance between the R&P and the bellhousing (with no cover plate). I guess it would have been ok without the pan mod, but may have eventually rubbed/damaged the boot on the rack. I feel better about where it sits now. I should have 1/2 clearance to the firewall at the throttle body even if I don't mod that, 1/4" or so front sump oil pan to crossmember, and the mentioned clearance at the rack.
Now on to the tranny crossmember.
I'll weld up the oil pan later..need to do some maintenance on my welder.
btw...with rlibew's Unisteer rack problem in mind...I have about 1" clearance over the STFabrications rack to the oil pan.
Hey guys...Rich K. in particular...I may have given some wrong pictorial info back a few weeks ago when I posted a pic if the Mark viii computer (correctly) and the pic of the engine control module. What I showed in the pic as the engine control module may or may not be the correct module. Cleaning my garage tonight I found several modules I had pulled, and now I'm not so sure which is which. I'll try to figure it out tommorrow by looking at the complete Mark viii in my driveway.
It may be Monday before I can get some info to sort this out. Our terminology vs. Ford's terminology makes it very difficult to locate these components in the service manual. I am going to call the detail zone and try to get a PN series number for the control module..hopefully it's like the computer that has one permanent main number with prefixes that determine different variations. I should be at least able to get some info from them as to how many pins the connector has. If that doesn't work I'll bring both modules in question to the Ford dealer service guy here who in the past has been real helpful (he likes the old cars).
The reason for my confusion on this btw, is that on our old thread from a year or two, we were discusing posible mounting locations for the computer and engine control module. Claiborn had made a statement that the module should be located in the engine bay because, quote:"IT HAD COOLING FINS ON IT FOR A REASON" The module I showed in the pic with the computer is the only one with cooling fins on the car. It was not located exactly where the detail zone said though. It was on the left front wheel well, but underneath, behind the headlight I am now thinking(ABS brake system components) The other module I have was located where the detail zone said, but does not have cooling fins and is much smaller.
I'll get it sorted out..
Rich the module behind the passenger side is the air ride and I'm nearly 100% sure the one on the drivers side is for the ABS. Gave my wiring book away with the 98 LSC when it went to a new home.
LOL...well I was right ....I was wrong! The pic I posted is not the engine control module. I brought the one I posted a pic of, and the one I later thought was actually the correct one, to the local Ford dealer and they looked up the part numbers. The one that I posted a pic of I don't think is needed, but the service guy described it as a multi purpose relay for the computer. I'll take a pic of what actually is the engine control module after dinner and post it here.
Rich...while I was in Colorado, I had mentioned I saw one in the salvage yard that looked like it was removed with a crowbar...as you'll see in the pic, one of the mounting flanges actually is bent up kinda wierd...so the one I saw may be ok..but it has been exposed to weather.
This IS the engine control modul not the one in the pic I had posted previously with the computer. That description comes up as such when the Ford dealer poked the pn into the computer. Also, as I had mentioned previously it is located under a plastic cover on the top of the driver's side strut tower.
ANOTHER CORRECTION...a year down the road...I've been eroneously calling this the "engine control module" in all of the above threads. It is an "Ignition control module". I also found out today, 1996's, and I assume newer, do not have them..it's function is incorporated into the computer.
It's been quiet here guys!!....
Al...did you figure out if you can use the mustang firewall section?
Rich....any decisions yet?
I spent some time with my hot rod shop buddy yesterday going over what I've got done so far, where I've got the engine set and how I'm working up the tranny mount rework. He thinks I've got it nailed, so if it rains here all week like it's suppose to, I actually may have a tranny mount soon. Got my welder repaired, and made a long overdue purchase of a 14" abrasive cut off saw, got my sandblaster repaired as well. LOL...I'm running out of excuses (I'll still have the house excuse though..that''ll be good for a long time).
Rich,
The more I think about this project, the more I think that I may not dive into it. If the offer of the engine had not been made, I would never have considered this radical a change to my car. I've wanted a '57 Fairlane for a long time and only got my car two years ago. It was in okay shape when I got it, but in the time I've had it I have improved it quite a bit. It's really my main ride right now. I drive it more than I drive my Corvette, but I do drive them both.
The EFI engine is a technology that I've not messed with, but I am sure that I could overcome my ignorance on that given enough time. If I do install the new engine, then I would also have to add power disk brakes and power steering too. So it would turn into a major make over and all this work would have to be done on a freshly painted car. That being said, I am holding off on a final decision for a while. There is no real deadline, but if I were to do it, it would likely be this winter.
Rich
I can sure understand that. Having a good up and running car is hard enough to come by, I mean it's not like your drivetrain is on it's last leg and your trying to decide what to replace it with. Once I get mine done, I'd be more apt to look for another project car than to tear it back down.
Rich;
Its good to see someone is working on their car! I haven't done anything since you were here except trying to think through some of the problems that will come with further progress. If it isn't time, then its money. I need to sell a mustang fund any further progress. Getting hit with $15,000 plus in out of pocket medical expenses for my wife really makes this a lower priority. I'm not sure much will get done until later this year.
Rich K., I understand your reluctance to tear into your completed car for this engine swap. I do think you ought to pick up that engine in case you change your mind or get another project. It is a great opportunity. Thanks! Al
Medical expenses are just outrageous..that's a bunch of bucks. The main thing is, I hope she's still doing well. The '57 will still be there when you can get to it. There are alot of projects you can work on though that are more labor than money....body prep work, ect.
That reminds me, I have a spare Custom 300 fender I was going to look at to see if it had the same odd hole pattern you were showing me on yours.
I may be back up your way in June(?)..got to check to see when the goodguys show in Fort Collins is.
Rich;
You are right when you say there are a lot of things to work on that don't cost much. It also is fishing season and those of you understand this obsession can relate.
I do hope to get the engine and transmission in final place this summer so I can move everything to the heated garage for this winter.
Please check in if you do come to Colorado in June and happen to come through the Springs. I have not been to that show but it sounds interesting. Thanks! Al
The Good-guys show is in just a little over two weeks. June 7-9.
This is the same show that use to be at Pikes Peak International Raceway up until 4 or 5 years ago. I sure wish it was in Pueblo instead of Fort Collins. That difference make my round trip from about 800 to over a thousand, and makes for one long ride home after driving up there from the Springs and walking around for 5 or 6 hours.
Great show...should be about 2000 cars..., small swap meet, lots of new part vendors
www.good-guys.com
Quote from: 57dohc on 2013-05-11 10:50
Rich;
I sure hope I won't have to go through all this! I was aware of the pan offset but was hoping clearance would be adequate with the transmission I am using. It made me realize that I should get a steering system mocked up before the final fitment of the engine/transmission mounts. By the way, I do have an extra oil pan if you make too many cuts!
Good thinking on the motor mounts: I had thought about the same thing but seem to remember the back edge of the frame mounting plates does not allow much of an edge to work with. I was even thinking of a plate where detents could be fabricated to slip in the orginal mounting holes and prevent forward movement when tighten down. Al
Al...reading back thru our old posts, I realized I was going to reply to this and never did. The reason for the oil pan mod was primarily the clearance issue with the R & P, and not the tranny. I don't remember if you ever mentioned what you planned for the steering, so whether or not you can benifit from the backwards move as much as I did will depend on that.
Rich;
I had planned on using some form of rack and pinion but I wasn't expecting any clearance issues. Might consider the borgenson (sp?) box as a cheaper alternative. With my progress to date, you will have figured out all the issues by the time I get there!
I probably won't get to go to the Good Guys meet in Loveland as it is Sue's "treatment week" and I think she will need me to stick around. Marty is going on Friday so it would be possible to hook up with him to share the gas up there if you are planning on attending.
Thanks! Al
Al...I decided to pass on the Goodguys show in favor of the NSRA show in Pueblo later this month.
With all the rain we've either expected or got putting a hold on my house resideing project, I was actually able to get a few hours in on the '57. This is what I came up to modify the oem tranny crossmember. I was fighting the wind trying to mig weld outside, so it ain't too pretty. Today I'm going to try to add gussets as shown on the chalk marked stick, and some welding touch-up. My car is not going to be that low, so I'm hoping having the gusset 1 1/4 below the crossmember won't be a problem.
You guys know it's my first rodeo for an engine swap...so if you see any problems ...comments would be appreciated.
Pic #1..that scribe line 3/8 in from where I'm cutting is in line with the rear lower crossmember mounting holes. The tranny oil pan is sitting 1/4" in front of that plane. This was determined by stretching strings from bolts in those holes on the car, then doing the same on the crossmember.
Pic #2..Tip...that piece of cement-fiber siding I'm doing my house with makes a great welding shield/protective barrier. The welding slag/splatter won't burn into it.
a few more
Rich:
Nice photos, they take me back to when Rick was redoing my transmission cross member to work with the TKO 600. I'm always amazed at the ingenuity of the club members and their fabricating skills. Yours are way up there, IMO. Great job on keeping us informed on how your 4.6 install is going. I couldn't help but think how fortunate you were during that hail storm your 57's garage withstood. I?m looking forward to someday traveling eastward with 57 AGIN to meet you and James, and many of the others.
Bob
57 AGIN
Just goes to show you can do anything with enough C-clamps.
Great job!
Thanks guys....I was a little nervous about cutting as much out as I did, but I think the gussets I'm adding will compensate ok. Some of the guys had told me the notching was common practice for many of the tranny swaps, but I didn't know if they were talking about notching this deep.
Actually the reason for all the c-clamps is the original tranny mounting bracket was tweeked a little (maybe from road kill), so I was using the 1/4" angle to pull it back before welding.
All gussied up...Not sure if i'll just leave the tacs or fill it in...I'm out of gas anyway (me and my mig).
A little progress. I altered a urethane "bump stop" to at least temporarily use as a tranny mount. Once I get all my final ride heights, engine tilt, etc. finalized, I'll know how much space I've got to work with. I had to shorten the height of the bump stop to get me enough pad length., and I drilled the two holes where it bolts onto the oem tranny crossmember 5/16 off center to match the slots in the crossmember, but center the tranny. I then used a hole saw to make a counterbore big enough to spot weld 2 3/8-16 flange nuts on the backside.
If you look at the 2 scribe lines (between the holes)on the crossmember mount pic, the two centerlines indicate the center of the crossmember (and tranny) and the center of the two slots. I drilled from the scribed side, and flipped it over. If you look closely at the slots in the pic, you'll see why I had a smile on my face.
The pic with the crossmember bolted on is pretty close to where I think it'll end up. The tranny is within a 1/16 of being centered on the crossmember, and has 1/4 clearance to the backside of the tranny oil pan. I can drop the tranny another 1/2" before I hit the flange on the oil pan.
A few more pics. I'm just using spacers I have to get me to a starting point. Once I determine the final height I'll figure out a permanent mount / pad.
Now I get to throw everything back in the car and try it out.
The last pic is the project that keeps me away from the '57 most of the time. Just got the new porch railing put on and painted, and new windows, siding, ect on the lower portion of the south side.
Success...I think. I got the altered crossmember, gutted tranny case, and engine mock up block installed temporarily yesterday. My engine oil pan is within a 1/8 of the engine crossmember, the bellhousing clears the rack and pinion by 1/2", the tranny oil pan clears by 1/4", and the bellhousing clears the firewall by what should give me 1/2" to the oem lincoln air intake.
My car is not at final ride height. I currently have the rockers levelled, and levellled side to side. My final ride height will be about 3 degree rake. With the tranny sitting on the mount I temporarily fabbed from the bump stock, with about 1" of spacers as in the previous picture, the engine sits at about a 5-6 degree angle. If I jack up the tranny so I have just a 1/2 clearance to the floorpan, I can get the engine to about 3 degrees, and I'll be able to use about a 2 1/2 thick tranny mount pad. I think however if I do that, the engine will be too close to zero at final ride height, and may cause problems with the differential pinion angle.
anyway, I know I have enough adjustment to get a good proper downward angle on the engine and everything seems to be where I need it clearance-wise. Now on to altering the ears on the control arms...if I can do that without actually having heads/exhaust manifolds on my mock up. I also need to run my front brake lines while I can easily access the area. I'll post some questions on that in the forumn's brake post area. I also have to get the welding done on the oil pan where I altered it.
I can't emphasize enough how much easier having the plastic engine mock up and gutted tranny has made this part of the conversion so easy for me.
Rich they have shims that are wedge shaped to help with pinion angle if needed. I have seen them in our local Pep Boys so it may help keep the clearances for the engine/trans. The pads for the axle are at Speedway if you have a lot of change in angle. Crossmember looks great.
Jon...thanks. I'll keep those shims in mind when I get to that point. I may be up your way Friday if they are still having the NSRA show in Pueblo. Wouldn't surprise me if they cancelled it with the Royal Gorge fire going on. I'll check on that mid week.
Al...are you still thinking the exhaust pipes that hook to the manifolds from the '04 Mustang are gonna work? I may have a lead on a pair...ebay Mustang guy parting out an '04 Cobra.
Also, Al...I couldn't remember if you had the exhaust manifolds on that engine sitting in place. If so, did you have to trim the control arms or corresponding brackets? It's looking like my trip to Colo. for the weekend is on. Did a brake job on the Jeep yesterday, and the weather is looking to be good there.
Also, does anybody here know what is required, if anything, electrically or electronicly to change the Lincoln coil packs to cop? I know I'll need the cop valve covers, and of course the coils.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-04-10 09:47
Motor mounts...I discussed this once before, but I'll bring it back up. Both Canadian Ranchero and Claborn posted pics of the mounts. Both of theirs had the drivers side sitting flush and the passenger side at a slight angle. Both reported the passenger side pulled down flush when tightened. When I got my mounts, even with the plastic mock up block, I had the same thing. My thoughs were even though the passenger side would pull down...it is an aluminum block and I was worried about possibly creating too much stress on the block. Instead of just pulling it down, I opted for a spacer between the mount and the block on the top 2 bolts. The 3/16 thick washers you see in that pic (passenger side only) made the mount flush with the crossmember almost perfectly.
Any comments on my approach??
Also to remention what I had discussed in another post, the mounting studs for the two mounts are not in the same place...the passenger side is up about 3/8 (if I remember correctly) from the driver's side. That means the slot in the oem crossmember pad is in different locations side to side. It's hard to tell from the pic I took of the two mounts, but the left crossmember stud is off centered from everything..the right side is centered. This was confirmed to be correct as oem by the manufacturer of my mounts.
It took me a while to find this, so I just quoted me so you won't have to look. The spacers on the right side, between the block and mount won't work. It kicks the engine up too far from level. In fact, even with the spacers out, I'm still about 1 degree from level. I'm thinking a shim under the left side mount, between it and the crossmember pad, will kick the left side up a bit, and still help with the right mount not exactly sitting flush.
Al. The pipes you have that connect to the exhaust manifolds I was just told are not stock oem pipes. I forwarded a pic (below) of your mid pipes to an ebay seller (Mustang Solutions LLC) that specializes in '03 and '04 Mustang Cobra parts. I called him this morning, and the all pipes he has are a welded together H-pipe, not seperate pieces like yours. He said if you look closely you may find a manufacturer's stamp on them. He said the mach 1's had the same 1 pc welded construction.
If anybody else is looking (Rich K?)..the seller I mentioned has a set of Cobra exhaust manifolds. 80 bucks + ship.
Rich;
Sorry I haven't watching this site the last couple of days and missed your questions. I just assumed that the exhaust on my car was stock! I will try to find a manufactures stamp on them.
The exhaust manifolds are on my engine as it sits on the motor mounts. It seems I trimmed a very small part of the rear of the control arm "ear" on the passenger side. No modification on the drivers side except for the water outlet. The exhaust pipes look like they can be used without modification but I don't have the steering box or any steering linkage attached.
I had kinda given up on being able to attend the Pueblo show. I was able to sneak away fishing today (pueblo Reservior) and on the way out meet a motor home towing a trailer with a nice black 57 custom 2dr. Man, I would like to look closer at that car! Al
Rich;
I kept thinking about your exhaust inquiry so I pulled out the Factory repair manual I recently acquired. You are correct; the factory exhaust for all 4.6l engines shows a standard H-pipe with converters attached. With that thought in mind, I did a search online for performance exhaust systems and found it to be a Mac offroad system. You can research that for 1999-2004 Mustangs. The site I looked at had it priced less than $300. That doesn't sound too bad considering converters won't need to be purchased. Al
Al...thanks for the info. LOL..I'm glad I missed your post on maybe not being able to make the show. That was a nice show...I sure like the fairgrounds for a venue like that. I forgot to tell you yesterday, I had called Jon and he wasn't able to get away from the shop. I thought I had Rich K's card in my wallet, and didn't, so I didn't have a number to call.
On the mid pipes..I checked out the site and viewed some customer pics. I would think the only problem may be whether or not they would clear the '57 oem crossmember. If you have time to check it out, you could put a bolt in each side of the lower crossmember mounting holes on the frame and just stretch a string across. Not sure how close you'll be able to check anyways, unless you have the engine angled back at it's final (3*?) position. It looks like the pipes connect to the chamber rearward of the tailpiece on the tranny. I may have more of a problem with clearing the crossmember than you because I added that gusset on the bottom side.
Al..that exhaust link you gave me for macs actually is not macs, but a distributor. On the distributor site, I found this mid pipe arrangement from bbk that actually would work better for me, I think, as it would be more easily reworked to clear the crossmember. Since you already have yours, I'd keep checking to see if it will work. This will be on the backburner for me..got more things to take care of first.
http://www.americanmuscle.com/bbk-offroad-xpipe-9904gt.html?source=igodigital
Stupid question #659: do the mid pipes go over or under the tranny crossmember? It was so long ago I pulled the oem one out, I don't remember. I was thinking they went under, but just realized there is about 3 1/2 between the floor and the top of the crossmember....so there is enough room to go over, but will the heat factor be too much? I know there is a baffle attached to the floorboards in that area.
Over on mine. Mark
Cool, thank you
Wow...almost a month since we posted on this thread. I've still been working mostly on the house, so not much to post about. I did work on engine compartment stuff I wanted to get done before the engine was installed. I did get the reworked tranny crossmember pulled back out, sandblasted, painted and reinstalled. I got my front brake line flex hose mounts moved to in front of the control arms to compensate for the Granada disc brake calipers. I got the frame touched up where I took the old ones off, and I got the hard lines made and installed as far as I can go without having the hydro-boost unit and proportioning valve installed. I got the emergency brake handle/cable rebuilt and installed all the way back to the tranny crossmember. I've been working on installing the throttle cable linkage from the Mark viii. I've got it mounted, including the cable, but only have about 1/2 the cable action that is built into the ass'y as the pedal arm is hitting the toeboard. I need to play with shimming the ass'y to see how much movement I can gain, but I may end up reshaping the pedal arm.
I also got the long nuts holding the upper control arm turned towards the outsides for exhaust manifold clearance. I got the exhaust manifolds sandblasted and painted with cast iron color header paint.
I think I'm ready for the engine. I'm going to intall it without the exhaust manifolds, so I can do the mods to the control arms later. Hopefully I can get the Mark viii stripped down and the engine in place on the '57. I've got to pull the '57 out of my garage, across the yard and into the driveway...which finally got concrete last year....so I only want to do this once.
Al...almost forgot...your probably past the point where my plastic engine mockup would do you any good, but my neice is headed up to the Springs next weekend if you want to borrow it.
I got the gas pedal figured out. I put 1/2" spacers under the mounting plate and got all but 1/8" of the full travel. I noticed some torquing of the plate with just the barrel spacers, so I'll make a full plate out of nylon I've got. I'm going to rework the crescent shaped pedal pad I made so I can move the floor mounted pedal up another inch or so towards the firewall.
Pics of the hinge I found that'll be perfect. there's enough space between the leafs for screws, the hinge actually has bearings so there's no slop like a normal gate hinge, it's real heavy duty, and was only about 8 bucks at Lowe's. I've got 1/8 heat shield under 3/8 carpet pad, so the 1/2" thickness of the hinge won't be a problem at all.
correction...there is slop in the hinge. I guess I wasn't tugging hard enough when I first checked. It lets the pedal move back and forth a little more than I'd like, so I'm going to play with it a bit to see what I can do to reduce the movement.
One more thing I got done, well almost, getting ready for the engine. I finished welding on the oil pan and am cleaning it up (soda blasting) for paint. It turns out the oil pan is a double wall affair with each wall being a pretty thin gauge, so welding wasn't as straight forward as I had hoped. I was getting an occasional blow back on the mig welding, I'm guessing because of the slight space in between the two walls, and of course I had to weld it on the inside as well as the outside. The good news was I figured this was really going to test my welding skills, and it ended up quite well I think. I had to grind out areas and reweld more than a few times, but I finally got it. I tested it by filling that corner of the pan with laquer thinner so I could check for pinholes without contaminating the welding area. Lots and lots of cleaning and using magnets to remove grinding dust and metal pieces from all the cutting, then flushing and high pressure blasts to get everything out. I por-15'd the inside reworked areas, and I'm soda blasting the outside for painting so I won't get sand trapped in it. Getting sand out of places like under the baffles is almost imposible to do 100%, and I didn't figure sand in my oil would be a good thing. The soda is water soluble...so a good flushing and it's gone.
Rich;
Great progress as usual. I am impressed with your fabrication skills which I am sure has been an inspiration to everyone on this forumn.
I want to thank you for offering to loan me your plastic engine block. I won't be able to get back to any work on my car until December so it probably won't do me any good.
I had hoped to get some work done this summer but it hasn't worked out. Sue's chemo has had more of a cumulative effect than we had thought and she required (and deserved) more attention. She completes treatment this thursday so it should up from here. We will probably go up to Minnesota to our lake cabin for the balance of the summer and fall for a total break.
I will continue to check your progress as usual even though I can't add anything meaningful. Again, thanks for your offer and keep up the good work. Al
Al...sorry to hear Sue is having such a tough time with the chemo...from all the stories I've heard I guess unfortunatly that's the norm. Super glad it's over next week.
Send us some pics of fishing in Minn!!
The offer will still be open for the mock-up block when you get back.
Forgot to post a photo of where the Mark viii throttle cable exits the firewall. Just eyeballing, I think the location and cable length will be just fine
Managed to get a few hours in..got the pedal finished. I tightened up the hinge I was using, and now it works super smooth. I'm not going to move it, as it is functioning well as it is installed, but had I to do it over, I would have moved the Mark viii pedal to the right...see arrow in the pic. If I were not also trying to use the '63 pedal with it, it would have been fine. I didn't realize the floor mounted pedal is designed to lean to the right..for natural comfort I guess. The axii of the two pedals are not in line, so the swing pedal moves across the back of the floor pedal as it is depressed. As I said though, it is super smooth so I ain't gonna worry about it. I
I did have to rework my console a tad so the front edge wouldn't catch the sole of my shoe. The last pic shows the nylon pad I made. It's about 9/16 thick and puts the Mark viii pedal in the right position to get full cable movement just as the arm hit the floor. The hinge I used sits in a pocket where I cut out the thick underpadding and is just about level with the carpet, so that worked well also I think.
I'll explain the trashbarrel in another post.
My install is now back on fast track, engine, trans rear end all in final time. Engine harness and computers in place as well as new auto wiring mounted and routed. Hydro boost in place and brake line being installed, the fuel tank is in but needs to be reworked for gauge sending unit to work with auto meter gauges. All plumbing for intercooler and pump in place with moon eyes type tank fabricated, best of all, all fits with stock 57 aluminum radiator in stock location.
We are working on, or should I say Schraders is working on 3" exhaust from stock cobra exhaust manifolds to just over and past rear wheel opening with 3" 3 chamber flowmaster mufflers close to rear axle , looks great so far, hope it is not to loud with the 4.6 supercharge cobra.
With steering problems solved, firewall reworded to except mustang peddles , four wheel disc install and being plumbed I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I hope to have it running and on the road by January, but interior and glass as well as a return to paint shop could and most likely will delay completion. I'm very excited with this project' should be a very nice 57 and stand out next to tri five Chevys.
I still can not post pictures, I will send some to Rich
You must have esp...I was just wondering yesterday about your build and how it was coming along. sending me those pics would be great...I'll get them posted for you. Your progress has gotta be exiting at the pace it's going.
Don't know how far Schradres has progressed on your exhaust, but a posibly helpful tip....check out places like Jegs for off road Mustang stuff. Thanks to Al, I found alot of mfgs. offering different components for the Mustangs that should help with our exhaust, at least to get it back to the tranny tail area.
Someday when I have time I'm further down the road with my install, I'm going to start another thread consolidating all the info that everyone has gotten together on this project.
Thanks for the input...and I'll look for those pics.
My memory sucks, rlibew, what tranny are you putting in?
Rich I'm using the 6 speed trans out of the 2003 cobra I bought the engine trans computer peddle assembly etc. My exhaust is in and believe It or not, I have 3" exhaust all the way to rear of car just behind the rear wheels. I had a gentleman that worked for Banks build the system form scratch 3" tubing and u bends. The system is run inside frame rails with 2 chamber 3" flowmaster at rear seat area and a 2" cross over pipe (H pipe) at rear of the trans. the cobra should preform well with flow this system will provide. With fuel lines brake lines and wiring being installed should be started soon. " I know where are the pictures"
"I know where are the pictures"...you DO have esp!
Keep us posted. Thanks
The reason I was asking about your tranny was I was wondering what you used for the tranny mount (the removable pad) and what you did fot the crossmember. I assume the tranny mounting holes for the manual are in the same location as the Automatic, but I don't know for sure. You probably didn't have the tranny oilpan clearance problem I had, resulting in the mods to my oem crossmember.
Rlibew....any updates??
also..on one of your last updates you mentioned...
"All plumbing for intercooler and pump in place with moon eyes type tank fabricated, best of all, all fits with stock 57 aluminum radiator in stock location."
Here's my ignorance poping out here...you have a manual 5 speed...I thought intercoolers were an automatic tranny thing. Could someone enlighten me?
He has a blower engine. For the Ford blown engines they installed an intercooler to cool down the air after the blower. It is a water to air cooler, has it's own "radiator", water pump, intercooler and tank.
Ok, thanks Bill. Guess I'm not missing anything on mine then.
Made an interesting discovery today while cleaning the engine/tranny I pulled from the Mark viii. The valve covers are aluminum! Hmmm. Wonder how they'd look polished. I had assumed that red Custom that's been at Mecham's twice had chromed valve covers...maybe not. Think I'll be figuring out how to polish aluminum.
Anyways, cleared a path on the Lincoln with the sawzall after unspotwelding the inner bumper, and just rolled her on out. The cherry picker is being attached after the clip was rolled out.Today, I'll raise it off the clip and get that put back on the Lincoln so I can get it out of the way. Got the engine and tranny cleaned up a bit, need to pull the exhaust, and switch oil pans. Shoot...forgot to get the front sump oil pan painted.
Another interesting discovery....I was at our local yard checking out a '98 Mark viii for the cop valve covers. The car had already had one of the valve covers removed, so no luck there, but I did discover that the front wheel drive Continental 4.6's have a very flexible, heavy rubber intake for the throttle body rather than the hard plastic on the others. This may come in handy if building a custom air intake..and of course it even has the sensor mounts molded in. I may go back next week with some tools and grab one while it's there....and get a pic.
Rich
Rich ,Go over to the HAMB site and do a search for alum.polishing, There is a guy that custom polishes for a good price.
I'll keep that in mind, Tom. Thanks for posting. I'm a ways from that point as it's not the valve covers on the engine now I want polished. My plans are to get it installed and running with no mods first, then change to the COP after that.
I'm actually getting close to having the motor in. Got the car out of the dirt floor shed today and up on my driveway. First thing in the morning, I'm gonna drop the rack out just to make sure I don't damage it, and the tranny crossmember (maybe), then I'll get to find out if all my mock up work with the plastic block and gutted tranny case worked. I'll be really happy if I can get this puppy in and bolted down once with no in-and-outs as planned.
That Mark viii I sold to a now friend, is already being put to good use. He's installing the independent rear suspension into a '56 ford pickup. It's been interesting to watch the progress on this. I didn't realize those Mark rear suspensions came out as a complete clip, just like the front. looks like a much easier install than I would have thought. If they can work out the strut towers, he's going to install the entire front clip from the mark as well. Otherwise, just the traditional install of the 4.6 dohc/tranny.
You will be on the road in no time now :002:. Just get it back in the shed before the next hail storm. Looks good Rich.
Well, the Mark viii is on it's way to fulfilling it's........
Probably overly sentimental, but the day I took the Mark viii out for it's last drive, I noticed the tire series for the first time. Anyway, the engine is in...hopefully ain't coming out again. Everything looks as planned, except I had some type of gizmo attached to the bottom of the throttle body intake that wouldn't clear by about 1/4". I pulled it, may have to remount/replumb/rewire to another location. I don't even know what it is at this point, but got some numbers, so I'll check with Ford and see what function it performs, then with Ron Francis to see if it's needed.
I've got about 1/2 clearance to the actual throttle body depending on where the tranny height ends up. the slots in the motor mount pads lined up perfectly, so I guess the mock up block was accurate.
I did a quick look-see at the exhaust manifolds, looks like they are going to be needing to be located before the manifold studs are installed. First look seems like the manifolds would clear easily if the studs weren't there, so I'll pull the studs out that I just installed...fortunatly with anti-sieze rather than loctite.
Had to cover everthing up...starting to rain. I'm anxious to get the exhaust manifolds in so I can check steering clearances with the r&p. Hopefully clear skies tommorrow.
Excellent Rich. Those gizmos will get you every time, must be destiny :003:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-09-27 12:47
You will be on the road in no time now :002:. Just get it back in the shed before the next hail storm. Looks good Rich.
Yeah, but "no time" is the problem, and another 6-8K to finish it up. Got almost all of the wiring yet to do, finish the interior including having a dash gauge panel custom machined,air/heat,rearend,fuel system,etc.,etc. I'm probably looking at 2 years.
Hailstorms
are in the area tonight...not ready to go back in the garage, and that's a 2 hour thing with taking down a fence, and a large panel in the garage that gets screwed on/off to get the car out. I pulled it out with my Jeep and a rope, but It'd be tough trying to
push it back with a rope. Got a couple of 2" thick foam bed toppers ready just in case.
Thats why I mentioned it, I was watching the weather channel..
Off topic, but I got some pictures from Jay and the new paint on the Ecode, I'm sure he will post them soon.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-09-27 18:17
Excellent Rich. Those gizmos will get you every time, must be destiny :003:
Did some checking. That gizmo is the egr valve. It's the valve itself, rather than it's attached sensors and tubes that is hitting the firewall.
So, somebody please educate me on egr valves...I believe they 'recycle' the exhaust fumes? Can they be deleted from the system without reprogramming the computer, which I don't want to do, or do I have to make room or modify it's location?
Exhaust Gas Recirculation I believe. I'm no help sorry, I don't deal with engines with all the electronic gizmos but from what I have seen on other peoples any slightest glitch in any of the system throws them into a tail spin :005:. Will this engine require O2 sensors in the exhaust?
Yes on the o2 sensors. That shouldn't be a problem. The o2 sensors could be eliminated, but that would require reprograming of the computer, which I don't want to do. The offroad exhaust pipes readily available for Mustangs , that I'm planning on using, has the 02 sensor bungs in them. The Ron Francis efi kit includes wiring for those as well as all the other original sensors. I'm assuming it's gonna be the same for the egr valve and sensor.....will require reprograming if I eliminate them.
driveshaft info: lots of good news, and a little bad news. This info pertains to MY install...4r70w tranny, the Custom's short wheelbase, and the engine pushed back a tad more than some other guys have done.... Other trannys or the Fairlane wheelbase may be different. The one piece aluminum driveshaft out of the '95 Mark viii is almost a perfect fit in my car. This goes along with what Claiborn had reported on his install into his wagon. The pic shows the driveshaft just pushed into the oem differential yoke and held in place with 2x4's, but you can see the length. Engagement looks good to me..about 4", and 3/4 or so shy of going to a full bottoming in the tranny. That's most of the good news, as well as the Mark viii's 1 1/16 bearing caps on the u-joint being the same diameter as the '57's differential yoke. However, the stock Mark viii u joints have a 3 5/8 length to the legs, and the '57 differential needs a 3 1/4 length to nest in the centering stops. The rest of the good news is this is not a problem. My local o'reilly's had IN STOCK a universal with those different leg lengths. The caps were a different ouside diameter, so I ended up using the caps from the Mark viii oem type ujoint I had previously purchased. 2 new ones to make one, but it'll get me the driveshaft installed for a whole lot fewer bucks than the machining and rebalance. The special ujoint to adapt the Mviii driveshaft to the '57 yoke is Precision (Federal Mogul)part no. 449. Made in the USA, 24 bucks.
Sometime in the near future, I'll do a summary of what I've done so far, and what I used to get there.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-09-30 17:42
Yes on the o2 sensors. That shouldn't be a problem. The o2 sensors could be eliminated, but that would require reprograming of the computer, which I don't want to do. The offroad exhaust pipes readily available for Mustangs , that I'm planning on using, has the 02 sensor bungs in them. The Ron Francis efi kit includes wiring for those as well as all the other original sensors. I'm assuming it's gonna be the same for the egr valve and sensor.....will require reprograming if I eliminate them.
Thats why I asked, I think if you remove the EGR it's going to change the O2 that the computer wants to see. Reprogramming will more then likely be needed.
You're probably right. I think I'll call the detail zone/Ron Francis tommorrow and find out for sure. The easy fix for this were my car in the prepaint stage would be just to add a little cavity to the firewall...I've only got a 1/4" or so issue with it. For Al (57dohc) or cyclone, this will be a non issue because they've got the supercharged 4.6 version, and the intake doesn't protrude in the back like the EFI does.
Just my opinion but I think doing the clearance would be the safest and cause the least headaches in the long run. I don't know what is required to remove the EGR, but it may require a little more clearance for wiggle room if you need to replace it in the future. I should have familiarized myself with these engines when the wifes car had one, luckily it went 174,000 miles without putting a wrench on it and it still ran great, the trans went..
Maybe there is an EGR off another model car that is a different configuration?
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-09-30 20:43
Just my opinion but I think doing the clearance would be the safest and cause the least headaches in the long run. I don't know what is required to remove the EGR, but it may require a little more clearance for wiggle room if you need to replace it in the future.
I tend to agree since I wouldn't want to mess the reprograming stuff.
Rich, I know you don't want to but you might consider cutting a hole in the firewall & inserting/bolting/screwing in some sort of a shallow box section thing. Only just enough that you need for room. Depends on what is behind the firewall in that area.
You may think I'm nuts but I keep thinking of using something like this with a flange that covers the outside of the cut. Stainless of course.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Bread-Loaf-Pan-8-5-4-5-New-/121060397473?pt=Bakeware&hash=item1c2fc311a1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Square-Cake-Brownie-Pan-7-5-inch-7-5-inch-New-/310583274184?pt=Bakeware&hash=item485034aac8
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/hide.gif)
Great idea with using a premade pan of some sort to add the clearance pocket...you know how I love the "thinking outside of the box" stuff. I'll consider that with other options.I'll try to get a pic of the area affected though..it's right on the edge of the tranny tunnel near the top. This egr valve is a kind of flying saucer shape, so the clearance cut would be small. Your pan idea wouldn't work exacly as such because of the odd shape the cut would end up, but I could still make some kind of a filler that could be attached by means other than welding...so thanks for that general idea.
I had posted some pics earlier this year of a '56 with a 4.6 dohc, where the owner had actually made an adapter that relocated the entire throttle body inlet..maybe for the same reason I'm running into. I went back to find a pic of his setup, and I'm not sure what he's got going on. It looks like the egr valve isn't there, or he is using a much smaller valve from another vehicle...another option to look into.
In the pic I'm posting, the notch would be the smaller shape inside the drawn circle.
Went back and looked at Claiborn's pic album...The flying saucer shaped thing is what I've been calling the egr valve, the rectangular cast alum box to the left of it is a presure sensor for the valve..it can be mounted anywhere...firewall, etc.
And I just made a discovery looking at the Claiborn pic. See that tube assembly running from the egr valve to the exhaust header? On both Lincolns I disassembled, the tube was cut in the corrugated area, and there were plugs in the exhaust maniflods. The cut tube end was just left open. On the Cobra exhaust manifolds I got, the drivers side had a plug as well. You can see the plug in my rack and pinion clearance picture.3 out of 3? This must have been a Ford authorized fix for an egr problem? I could never figure out why they had those plugs...now I know from Claiborn's pic what they were intended for.
Rich you can not remove the 02 sensors, they are the heart of you fuel milage and drivability. Those after the cats (if they are there) can be "dumbied" out with readily available plugs but if you are using the Francis kit they may already be taken care of. Need to check on that with them. Try looking at rotating the EGR valve, it don't care which way it is oriented. The computer that came with the MK should be OBD 2 (might beEEC-VI) which really don't care if the EGR signal is there or not. It will throw a code for it.
Might be easiest to call and see if they can re-program with all the crap taken out.
Looks like you can turn the flying saucer over and re-route the pipe closer to the head. Those two hose connections are for checking "flow" in the tube and are required to feed a device that tells the computer how much is flowing.
I think that pic of Claiborns shows a modified tube assembly to fit his new headers. The remains of the ones I have are closer to the heads, and both smaller tubes are above the corrugated area. If you look at the flow sensor to the left and above those 2 pipe outlets, you'll see the rubber tubes coming out the bottom of the sensor...they hook up to the 2 on the pipe. Claiborn had moved his sensor to the firewall, which is why I think his tube is where it is.
Bill, what's your take on the the manifolds no longer using the pipe to the egr valve as Claiborns is using? Too much of a coincedence to be on all three of my vehicles involved. Ford just bypassing a problem rather than fixing it?
No, all vehicles have EGR, the EGR system is used to cool down the combustion chamber to reduce NO2 emissions (left over from the days of "Global Cooling" and acid rain) while the car is running after it is warmed up. The pipe gets the exhaust gas to the control valve, some makes use ports in the intake (mid 70s Fords used a plate under the carb and pulled gas from the heat cross over). The entire system can be elininated with no ill effects to engine performance or drivability but the computer may need re-programming. Kinda like removing the cats, no harm, no foul as long as the computer is tweeked.
Rich after thinking about this for a while....if it were me.....I would elininate the EGR, the cats, the purge system, the air injection system and have the computer programed so when the "check engine" light comes on you know you have a problem.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2013-10-01 07:16
Rich after thinking about this for a while....if it were me.....I would elininate the EGR, the cats, the purge system, the air injection system and have the computer programed so when the "check engine" light comes on you know you have a problem.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/THUMB.gif) There is no question that that could eliminate any future problems with all that crap
if it can be successfully done.
I'm lost when it comes to all this computer controlled stuff on new cars.
On the other hand Rich probably only needs another 1/4" at most for space for that damn EGR valve & could still use this no cost solution ... :002:
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Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2013-10-01 07:16
... some makes use ports in the intake (mid 70s Fords used a plate under the carb and pulled gas from the heat cross over).
This was on a near new, but out of warrantee, 1979 FoMoCo 302 powered car that belonged to my now ex-wife. When the car started running crappy I pulled the carb & this spacer.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/VAN/EGRspacerplate1.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/VAN/EGRspacerplate3.jpg)
Of course the gasket was burned away too.
It never seemed like a good idea to me to be running hot exhaust gasses thru aluminum.
Even the passageway between the EGR valve & the base of the spacer is burned out.
In any case, I replaced the aluminum spacer plate with a cast iron one & a new gasket & the car ran just fine for many thousands of miles afterward.
At the time we had to pass an under hood inspection & a tailpipe emissions test or I would have eliminated that stinkin' EGR valve & it's spacer altogether.
LOL...thanks for all the input guys, I think if I drew out my learning curve it would just be a verticle line. Piece by piece, I'm gradually figuring this engine out, instead of the "holy crap, what is all this stuff?". One of the really cool things about doing it yourself, as the Ron Francis sales spiel says...it's the only way you will know and understand your car so you can troubleshoot future problems.
I googled egr valve last night, just to see different physical shapes of valves used. Interestingly, one of the things I ran across was lots of egr deletion kits that ran the gammet from simple 10 dollar block off plates to complicated kits in the 300. range. Saw some for lots of Ford engines, but none for 4.6 (yet)
Lots of research yet to do... the egr will be on my winter to-do list.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2013-10-01 07:16
No, all vehicles have EGR, the EGR system is used to cool down the combustion chamber to reduce NO2 emissions (left over from the days of "Global Cooling" and acid rain) while the car is running after it is warmed up. The pipe gets the exhaust gas to the control valve, some makes use ports in the intake (mid 70s Fords used a plate under the carb and pulled gas from the heat cross over). The entire system can be elininated with no ill effects to engine performance or drivability but the computer may need re-programming. Kinda like removing the cats, no harm, no foul as long as the computer is tweeked.
Rich after thinking about this for a while....if it were me.....I would elininate the EGR, the cats, the purge system, the air injection system and have the computer programed so when the "check engine" light comes on you know you have a problem.
I'm glad to see someone else remembers when they tried selling us on Global Cooling :003:
Rich, after looking at the mounting flange on that EGR valve here is another crazy thought for a cheap way to get out of reprograming the computer.
Maybe you could fabricate some sort of spacer for your ... "flying saucer"? That's a definite maybe 'cause I don't know where the valve could fit.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/Ranchero/EGRspacer.jpg)
Good idea....another method to consider.
I did call Ron Francis today, and talked to Scott....I think he's the head guy there now. The computer would have to be reprogramed if the egr is deleted, so it's gonna stay, one way or another. He didn't seem to think it would be a problem if I were able to fit an egr valve of a different shape in it's place as they all pretty much function the same as far as the computer is concerned. So, one way or another, I'll get it ironed out. Thanks again for the idea, that may work also if I can find an area close that has more room, or at least use it to reposition the way it's sitting.
Spent a few hours walking the salvage yard looking for ideas, actually came up with two, but decided Tom's flange extention would be the best route...however.....EGR issue is resolved. The valve is temporarily in with no mods whatsoever. I've just got to pull it to clean it up, new gasket. etc., and decide whether or not to replace the inlet tubes from the exhaust manifolds that were cut. Why did it become a non-issue? I woke up and remembered I had the tranny sitting temporarily on a spacer at what I thought would be a minimum spacer thickness @ 1 5/8 (yes, a 2 x 4). I jacked up the tranny rear to 2 1/4 which rotated the engine up and away from the firewall almost a 1/2". Engine angle will still be in good shape I think, and still have plenty of tunnel clearance.
Just some interesting info....one car at the yard had a Ford sticker on it saying the "alterations to the recirculating gases system was a ford authorized repair". Car had been stripped, so I couldn't see if it was the egr/exhaust man. tube I had found altered. One posible egr solution that I ended up not needing was I found out the 97-8 Mviii's had a intake manifold with the throttle body in the center (on top of the middle of the motor). The continental front wheel drives have a similar intake to the Mviii, but the egr valve is on the right side, where I have more room. As I said..not something I have to worry about now.
A little follow up...did a bunch of reading on the Mark viii forumn regarding the egr valves, the flow sensor, and the tube that runs to the exhaust. It seems that the egr itself is rarely a problem, it is usually the sensor and the cracking of the tube, and split vacumn lines. I decided that being in a difficult place to get to once the car is assembled, I'm going to replace everything with new while I can get to it easily. The problem may be the tube..100 + from a Ford dealer according to 6 or 7 year old posts. They may not even still be available, and the adapter needed to attach them to the manifold was reported to be no longer available.
Got all new egr components ordered today. The good news I got was the connector tube is available from Ford as well as the adapter needed. They'll be in from Fort Worth tomorrow.
Next problem to solve is the tranny mount now that I know for sure what the height of the mount needs to be. My makeshift one I didn't feel comfortable with, so I ordered an '03 Crown Vic oem and I think I can adapt it to work...todays project.
Good decision to buy all new and get it in now rather then fighting it later. Just to back up a few posts, I forgot to ask about the drive shaft front yoke. What you are doing is using the OEM 57 yoke on the new drive shaft and that has the correct spline, ID/OD to fit the new style trans?
No, all the components are the Mark viii...engine, tranny and driveshaft. Driveshaft is unmodified except for the rear universal joint. The front yoke is original Mark viii except for new oem style u joint.
Was trying to figure out what I said that made you ask that, and it was probably that I called the piece on the differential the driveshaft bolts to , "the '57 yoke"...probably the wrong term for that piece.
Damn, both my keyboard and mouse are acting up now.
Thanks Rich, I think I just got confused looking at the picture, the front yoke looked old. The piece on the end of the differential is a companion flange in most Ford manuals but I always refer to it as the yoke also.
From a non computer guy, I've had issues like that and it's usually cured by taking it out in the garage and blowing it out, I live in a dusty area..
I had the low mileage mark viii driveshaft, but I gave it to the guy that bought the car after I pulled the engine. I thought I was giving him the high mileage one, but picked up the wrong one. I do have it all cleaned up now..looks much better. I used the autobody zinc phosphate to give the mating surfaces a good cleaning/rust removal and little bit of protection, new joint, and a little paint on the non mating surfaces of the yoke. Skotchbrited the driveshaft itself with aluminum wheel cleaner. LOL Just couldn't bring myself to putting all that dirty stuff on the car.
well, I guess nothing has got to be easy for me. I picked up the new Ford connecting tube for the egr to exhaust, and it's about 1 1/2 too short for my needs. Probably because of the Mustang exhaust manifolds. They also redesigned it, eliminating the weak accorian section that made it somewhat adjustable. I've got it reshaped and heading in the right direction, but as I said too short. One of the guys on the Mark viii forumn thought the fittings might be plumbing type, but no such luck, and that of course eliminated the hope of just stacking up some couplers or adapters to make the reach. I'm gonna look at salvaging a section of tubing off the old one to weld in the middle. I'll let you know how that goes.
Well that egr and tube chewed up my day..but it's in. I did end up using remnants of the original tube that was left to extend the new one. That was pretty easy, and would have been easier if I hadn't cut the wrong end off the new one and have to weld on new ends at both ends.
4 or 5 trial and errors and tweeking with heating and bending to reshape, but it's there and hopefully won't have to come back out. I got some kinks in the tube trying to reroute the original bends, but not enough to interfere with flow. It ain't real pretty, but I'm not going to worry about it. Had I had to do it over, I'd check to see if a hydraulics tube company could fab some from scratch. The kink there would be I think the fittings are metric threads.
The egr valve was easy to get in place, but getting to the bolts was another matter. The new egr valve, 2nd pic, is slightly different configuration than the original and is an even tighter fit. It's the round black thing with the vacumn line tube in the center.
The last pic, btw, is a better pic of my exhaust manifold to r & p clearance.
Didn't get very far today. I ended up relocating the new egr flow sensor to the firewall just above the valve cover as there was not enough room for the connector. Got the egr connector tube wrapped with heat shield, and everything related finished. I can finally scratch that off my list. I also got the throttle cable hooked up. Fit was a little tight, I thought it might bind the cable, but the gas pedal arrangement I cautiously played with a few months ago works smooth as silk. I read a few nightmare scenarios on the hamb about mickey moused throttle linkages and the results...didn't want that hapenning here.
Finally tommorrow I can pull the tranny crossmember out and get it modified to accept the '03 Crown Vic mount. There might be an interference problem with the 2 studs on the mount and the oem gussetts on the crossmember.
wow..almost a month since I updated. Haven't been working on the '57 too much though, hopefully back to it next week for a while anyways.
I mentioned in an earlier post that the 4.6 dohc in the f.w.d. Continentals had a rubber air intake to the throttle body. I went to the salvage yard and pulled one that was the shorter of the two I saw, both on '95's. (Shorter where it comes up off the throttle body before turning 90*) As it turns out, the taller one might work, but with it turned from it's oem direction of going away from the engine, the shorter one won't clear the intake manifold on the Mark viii motor. The taller one that I left there may work. I'm going to go get it Monday. $5 each, so not too much lost. I'm still playing with the idea of running the air intake to the cowl and using that for the intake area rather than running it thru the wheel well near the headlight. The rubber will make it easier to fab components than the hard plastic that came on the Mark viii.
While I was there, I noticed they had a '97 continental with all the engine components intact. I came home and researched whether the valve covers would fit, and they will. I went back to the yard and started pulling the covers off, but couldn't get them out before the yard closed, so I'll go back on Monday and finish pulling them, along with the cop harness and covers. I almost bought a set on ebay for $109, but fortunatly didn't because these will only be 20.! (not sure if they meant 20 each or the pair, but still cheap). Anyway, this will allow me to convert the Mviii motor to coil on plugs, eliminating the coil packs and spark plug wires, thus cleaning up the engine compartment quite a bit. I won't do the conversion until after the motor is up and running, but I want to get them while I can cheaply, and it'll probably take a ton of hours to get them stripped and polished up anyways.
Al:...you home yet?
Cyclone:...any progress on the Roush setup?
Forgot to update on the install to date. As I had hoped, the engine and tranny went in once and done thanks to the mock up block and tranny. Best money I ever spent. I had to play with the tranny height abit to get everything fitting, but I knew that was going to be the case.
What I did/used, and what I ended up with:
the Mustang motor mounts worked great with having allowed for the mounting studs being at two different heights. I did discover the engine is offset to the passenger side the same 3/8" the oem tranny crossmember was. This gives me 7/8 inch clearance exhaust manifold to upper control arm bracket on the driver's side, but only 1/8 on the passenger side. I think I will go in and trim the passenger side control arm bracket a bit before I put the front end on, just to make sure. The 02 Cobra exhaust manifolds fit perfectly. I did have to remove the manifold mounting studs from the heads and use bolts in their place. The manifolds won't go on over the studs.
I modified the front sump Continental oil pan so I could move the motor back an additional 1/2". I now have 1/2" clearance from the bellhousing to the rack and pinion, 1/16 oil pan to engine crossmember. Up top, I have 1/4" clearance from the egr valve to firewall. I did have to relocate the egr's flow sensor to the firewall. I have 9 1/2" clearance from the crankcase pulley to the engine side of the core support, so there is plenty of room to adapt the Mark viii electric fans. The '03 crown vic tranny mount was the exact height I needed to get my egr clearance, and give me 1/4" clearance from the driveshaft to the floor brace above it. With the car sitting level, the engine is at about 4 1/2 to 5*, so when I get my ride height settled in with about a 2 1/2* rake, the engine should be within a few degrees of level.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-11-02 20:42I'm still playing with the idea of running the air intake to the cowl and using that for the intake area rather than running it thru the wheel well near the headlight.
Did you see the way this guy did his 57?
http://spudsgarage.com/vehicles/57FordConvert/index.htm (http://spudsgarage.com/vehicles/57FordConvert/index.htm)
(http://spudsgarage.com/vehicles/57FordConvert/presentation/020.jpg)
(http://spudsgarage.com/vehicles/57FordConvert/header.jpg)
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-11-02 20:42
Cyclone:...any progress on the Roush setup?
I'm collecting parts. Got the motor mounts and a hydroboost setup. Waiting on a back ordered front sump Canton pan that should be in next week. I'm still have yet to order a rack&pinion kit for the steering. I have contacted S and T, just a little short of money now. Should order it soon.
The Mark viii driveshaft fit, although it ended up being almost an inch short of ideal. I still have 4 or 4 1/2" of spline engagement, so I hope that will be adequate. I really hope I don't have to have the driveshaft lengthened an inch. As posted earlier, I did have to replace the Mviii rear oem ujoint with one that adapted it to the '57 differential's yoke sizes.
Exhaust manifolds clear the rack and pinion steering with plenty of room. As I posted earlier, I adapted a new Markviii egr tube to reach the Mustang exhaust manifold.
I have plenty of oem tunnel clearance all around the 4r70w tranny. Cooling lines, wiring harnesses, and shifter mechanisms will have no clearance issues.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-11-02 21:25
The Mark viii driveshaft fit, although it ended up being almost an inch short of ideal. I still have 4 or 4 1/2" of spline engagement, so I hope that will be adequate. I really hope I don't have to have the driveshaft lengthened an inch. As posted earlier, I did have to replace the Mviii rear oem ujoint with one that adapted it to the '57 differential's yoke sizes.
Exhaust manifolds clear the rack and pinion steering with plenty of room. As I posted earlier, I adapted a new Markviii egr tube to reach the Mustang exhaust manifold.
I have plenty of oem tunnel clearance all around the 4r70w tranny. Cooling lines, wiring harnesses, and shifter mechanisms will have no clearance issues.
Rich, have you considered changing your pinion yoke. Ford nine inch yokes come in different lengths. You could make up that inch there.
Nice clean look on that convertible's engine. Same concept as his intake into the cowl, except mine won't be so direct and clean looking because the Mark viii's up until '96 have the throttle body intake at the back end rather than the middle as his is. He could just go up and back, I have to go somewhat forward and make a 180. I'm playing with the air intake first, because that will determine where I can put my battery, which will determine how I run the wiring, etc. That convert. also has the cop design which really cleans things up. He just needs to get those cast aluminum valve covers stripped and polished. LOL
Good choice with S & T fabrications on the R & P.
I had entertained the idea of switching to the '97 - 98 intake manifold to get that centered throttle body, but I understand they also eliminated the dual runners when they did that...a feature I like. Probably would create problems with computer as well, so I decided not to change.
Looks like you are making good progress Rich. I just question your concern about the engine being level. Isn't it more important to match the trans output shaft angle to the pinion angle?
Quote from: Boss/Cyclone on 2013-11-02 21:28
Rich, have you considered changing your pinion yoke. Ford nine inch yokes come in different lengths. You could make up that inch there.
I didn't know that...thanks much for that input. I haven't touched my differential yet. Was going to leave it for last, then pull it for shortening, trac-loc, discs,springs, sway bar,maybe a cal-trac traction bar set up. and adjusting the pinion angle if needed. I'll look into the longer yoke. Thanks again.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-11-02 21:43
Looks like you are making good progress Rich. I just question your concern about the engine being level. Isn't it more important to match the trans output shaft angle to the pinion angle?
see previous post. I know efi engines aren't as picky about level as carburated, but level as posible would be better for any oiling issues so I'm told. I really can't get the pinion angle checked acuratly until I get the ride height established. I think everything is at least in a workable range now though. The aluminum driveshaft is so much larger than the old oem, I can't go up any more with the tranny without cutting into the floorbrace for clearance. I'd rather not. I can't go down any without a major pita with the egr stuff...again, I'd rather not. I'm thinking at this point I shouldn't have to do either, because the angles are coming in close enough that shimming the differential should be a worse case scenerio.
OK, didn't know you hadn't done the rear yet, so shimming the axle is an option.
As soon as it warms up a bit this morning, I'm gonna go get those cop valve covers.
A few 4.6 tidbits: went to the Pavilion Cruise Night in Phoenix a few weeks ago. There was a nice '60 falcon wagon there with a 4.6 sohc. Nice guy, proud of his ride he had just aquired, but didn't know a whole lot about it. In fact, he tried to convince me the engine had 3 cams! "that's what they told me" he kept saying. I tried to tell him the guy probably meant 3 valve, I mean, where would that 3rd cam be?. oh well.
There also was a real nice black '54 (?) mercury there with a 4.6 dohc. my camera wasn't working (card was full), or I would have gotten pics. He and his brothers built it, with alot of help from guys that worked for them....including the engine wiring harness. Interesting guys. They actually used the Mark viii exhaust manifolds by using the passenger side from 2 vehicles, cutting and rewelding one of them to fit the right side. He was running Magnaflows, a bit loud for me. When I see 4.6's in something at a show, I try to get to listen to it if I can...looking for that right sound.
My guess is a sohc 4.6 engine is not going to sound like a dohc? what do you guys think on that?
That low miles Mark viii I took my engine from....The guy I sold it to, and has since become a good friend, and is putting its front and rear independent suspension into a '56 Ford pickup knows the guy that originally owned it, and that guy came by his shop last week. He was surprised to see it again. The accident that doomed it ( along with the subsequent hail storm) happened as a hit and run in a restaurant parking lot while he was in eating diner! He had bought it new, and said he could count the nights on one hand that car wasn't in a garage. So, it turns out I was just the second owner.
It took me a total of 4 hours to get those valvecovers off, but I got them.... @20 bucks for the pair, including the coil covers. Yeah!! I also got the coil electrical connectors, and the resistor type grounding blocks. (the coils wire harness, or as much of it as I could get) left the actual coils there...gonna get new ones. Spent 1/2 hour playing with stripping and polishing a small area just to see what I was in for. Very high quality surface finish on the castings...typical with investment castings as opposed to sand castings. Just gonna be real tedious getting into all the cracks and crevases, but the accesible area I worked on polished up great. I'm gonna guess 20 hours a cover. Got to check into what's available for arbor mounted abrasives I can use in a die grinder.
some pics I forgot to post that go along with the posts a few days ago. That tranny mount is Anchor #3038, btw. I sloted it for the tranny bolts,, and redrilled new holes thru the crossmember for the mount's studs. No issues with the studs being too close to the oem crossmember bracket.
Lookin good Rich, that looks like the keeper in there, no more mock up block?
Thanks Mark...much appreciated. Too many years waiting to get to this point. That's the keeper...in once and done thanks to the mock-up. Lots of pics and info starting a few pages back in this thread.
My next projects to tackle: Getting the core support/radiator installed so I can start working on the electric fans, ac, ps, and tranny condensors located. Then I can figure what I need for lines, hoses, etc.
Also first on the to-do list is figuring where my air intake is gonna run...that will determine which side of the car I have my battery on, and of course how/where to run the wiring. I really don't want the battery in the trunk, so it may end up on the driver's side with a modified wheelwell to accommodate. If it stays on the passenger side, I'll still have to modify that wheelwell to move the battery away from the head/valvecover
I've been playing with the top radiator hose dilema a bit, think I found the solution. I picked up some stainless flexible radiator hoses to begin with, but the top radiator hose is gonna take some additional work. The Mark viii top engine to radiator hose comes off the engine pointing in a downward angle, and pretty close to the radiator inlet, which point upwards a bit. I picked up a spare engine tube assembly, and cut off the corner with the tube pointing down, flipped it over and rewelded it pointing upwards. I think this will get the angles/direction close enough to work. The tube assembly is a slip fit/o-ring arrangement in the engine, and that front sleeve between the bleed valve and the hose outlet is also an o-ring slip fit affair, made welding easy as the two halves can be rotated, or slipped in and out a little to adjust. LOL..after I did this, I looked at Claiborn's old pic album to see what he did, and it looks like he came up with the same solution.
This would have been easier had I planned better before I bought a new radiator. The tube assembly in the previous post is different on the Continental front wheel drive engines. The radiator hose on those goes off to the driver's side. Assuming the new 6 cylinder radiators have the same cooling capacity and could be used, the top inlet is on the driver's side, so, a 6 cyl radiator, and a tube assembly from a Continental I think would have worked better.
Just thought I'd mention it for anyone still in the planning stages.
Got the radiator redrilled lowered 5/8" and installed, set forward 1 1/8 as discussed on other threads.The bottom of the radiator is actually touching the head of the core support bolt, so next time I yank the radiator, I'll put a little dent in the radiator with a plastic mallet so it clears the bolt head.
Cutting the upper coolant tube so I could flip the outlet to an upwards direction and reweld worked out well, although I'm not going to be able to use the stainless radiator tube kits I bought anywhere. The hoses needed are too short and too many tight bends for the stainless hose. With engine and core support movement, they'd crack in no time. For the top hose, I found a radiator hose at O'reilly's I was able to cut a section out of that worked quite well. It was Gates #22661. Both hose ends are 1 1/2 on the top one.
Today I resolved issues with the bottom radiator hose...at least I think I did. LOL...I'll have so many places to look for leaks when the engine gets kicked over for the first time. Next thread will be on the bottom
The bottom radiator hose, and the issues to deal with for the Mark viii version of the 4.6: The lower outlet on the oem style '57 radiator is a 2" outlet. That's the first problem, because most of the hoses stocked in O'reilly, Auto Zone, etc are 1 1/2 or 1 1/4. The second issue is the thermostat housing (lower half). When Canadian Ranchero was looking at different housings, he talked about a Crown vic oil filter adapter that raised the water inlet higher than the Mark viii's. I didn't have a problem with the upper half, and Al (57dohc) had mentioned on his Mustang version, he had to clear the upper control arm bracket to make room for the oil adapter/water inlet. I couldn't see any sense in asking for that problem. My upper water housing and the pipe going to the oil filter adapter easily cleared everything, the problem being the hose coming off the lower half of the thermostat housing was rubbing the lower control arm.
I also wanted to delete the pressurized overflow tank, so I found a thermostat housing off a 2001 Crown Vic that headed the hose in the right diection, and was angled quite a bit more than the oem mark viii housing, so it got the hose off the lower control arm. I had to make two minor alterations on the CV housing to mate it with the Markviii upper half. The parts had two different hole spreads by .085, so I elongated the CV housing's bolt holes to suit. The boss that seals against the o-ring was about .065 too short on the CV housing, so I made a rubber washer to go under the oring (on top of the thermostat..you can't put it under). Also, the CV housing eliminated the coolant reservoir pipe. I looked at earlier versions ('91) of the CV housing, and that boss was shorter yet.
The next issue to deal with was finding a radiator hose that had some weird bends..really lucked out there, as far as shape and length.Gates # 22472. Unfortunatly, the hose was the correct 1 1/2 dia for the housing, but only 1 1/4 for the radiator. I decided to use it until I find something else. I had a series of hose adapters I had got with the stainless flexible kits, plus a 2" adapter I had aditionally bought at the same time. Assuming I have no leaks with all the adapters used, I'll have to keep a close eye on the water temp. til I see if the 1 1/4 bottleneck is a problem.
The second picture above shows CV housing on left with the needed spacer and o-ring. mkviii housing is on the right. The last picture shows new setup easily clearing everything.
P.S. I've really been happy with what I've found on my engine so far....absolutly no sludge in the oil pan, the thermostat in the 3 rd pic above is as it came out of the car...that's not a new one, and hasn't even been cleaned. Looking into the oil filler hole on the valve cover, it's as clean as a whistle. I found some corrosion of the steel tubing installed in the aluminum housings and engine block for the coolant systems. I think probably has more to do with the "dissimilar metals cause corrosion" thing. I haven't even found any cracks in rubber components..belts, hoses, etc. Also, no indications of any oil or tranny leaks.
Next project: fitting the Mark viii fan and shroud. The lower hose, btw, will cause no interference with the shroud, and it also clears the power steering pulley by about 3/8".
The mark viii fan and shroud fits the '57 style radiator almost like it was made for it. It totally covers the core top to bottom, and only lacks about 3/8" on either side from full coverage. I trimed off the 4 mounting tabs flush with the sides, cut a relief for the bottom hose outlet, and for drain plug access. The top part of the shroud is up against the top tank, and the bottom edge does not interfere with the tranny coolant inlet and outlet. I attached a 1/16 x 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 aluminum angle to the shroud sides. Tommorrow, I'll get the alum. angle attached to the side flanges on the radiator. When mounted, there is nothing within 2" of the fan shroud.
LOL...the last pic....that moon radiator cap is gonna have to go, or I'm gonna have to form a bubble in my hood.
Shroud is cleaned up and in for it's final (I hope) resting spot. You can see the closest thing to the shroud is the left coil pack plug-in. Plenty of room to run any lines, wiring, etc if it has to go there. I even got about 1/2 the engine cleaned up.
Nice job Rich, very neat and clean looking, like it was suposed to be there!
Thanks Bill. I'm really, really enjoying this end of the overall project (unlike the bodywork/paint). Never having done a conversion before, it's been fun trying to figure out all the pieces to the puzzle.
I know I still have the biggie...the electrical...but even still, all the apprehension I had attempting this project is totally gone. Now, if I just had some money...
Nicely done Rich. The height of the radiator cap makes me nervous but I'm sure sure you calculated that..
LOL...it's got me nervous too. I'm just going by the fact I know Pat/suede57 installed one of these in a forward position, although he did say he wacked the neck a little with a 2 x4 to move it down a little. If worse comes to worse, I'll cut out the neck, have it welded closed, and install a right angled neck on the engine side of the top tank....it looks like there's room.
I got my bulkhead fittings with the barbed push-on hose ends in from Vintage air today. Now if the flex tube would just get here I'll be able to finish another step.
update...fedex was delivering late tonight. The flex hose came about 8pm..yeah.
I think I like the moving it method better then the 2x4 LOL
details, details....I hope I'm not driving you guys nuts with small details, but I'm trying to cover even all the small stuff I encounter that wasn't covered on previous threads.
My heater hose stuff came in today and tonight, so I went out and braved the cold to check it out. The fittings I got from Vintage Air for the bulkhead end will work out perfectly.
The engine oulets, not so perfect, but I can make them work. Firstly, I wrongfully assummed the engine inlet/outlet tubes were 3/4, they are in fact metric, and a bit bigger. The tube dia. is about .790, and the flared ridge is about .820. If the stainless hose I ordered were in fact 3/4 as stated in the ad, and on the packaging, I probably couldn't have got them to work on the .820 dia. However, they misstated the inside dia. they are not 3/4 (.750), but in fact .840. I'm thinking the hose clamps would probably seal that .020 difference, but after cleaning the tubes real well, I'm going to wrap them with teflon thread sealing tape to build up the pipe dia. so the hose fits tight, as it should, before I tighten the clamps.
If it's warm enough to work out there tommorrow, I'll get some pics.
It sure wasn't warm enough to hit the garage today for very long spurts. Had the space heaters running all day and it never hit 40*. I did get everything figured out for the heater hoses though. Came up with a better idea for "swelling up" the engine heater tubes so they fit my new hose better. Instead of trying teflon tape, I went looking for some large dia. heat shrink tubing, and found some heavy wall .875 ID. This stuff is much thicker than normal heat shrink tubing, and sized the engine tubes perfectly. I'll get some pics posted of everything after I get further along ..hopefully nice enough out there tommorrow.
One small step done. The stainless hose kit worked great except one pita problem. They use hose clamps that are too flimsy..I guess the idea was to keep them small and unobtrusive, but the clamps were probably made in China, and they wouldn't tighten. The worm drive kept slipping on the metal band. I picked up some made in USA clamps that required the aluminum covers to be altered to make room. I just cut out the material between the two slots and made it one big slot.
First pics is the shrink tubing, not the heater hose
And the final pic. That hd shrink tubing worked excellent to get the metric sized engine tubes up to a tight push on for the flex hose's adapter. Those hose clamps holding it to the firewall are gonna have to do for now. I'd eventually like to get some billet clamps...haven't found any yet.
I'm guessing it makes a difference when hooking up the AC/heater evaporator, which I don't have yet, but how do you tell which is the out tube on the motor, and which is the return?
Second pic shows the mod I made to the hose clamp covers so I could use wider, better clamps. The bottom, attached, cover still has the small clamps.
Got the which is which figured out. Nice to have a spare engine to look at the things I can't see when it's in the car. The bottom tube is the supply, and the top tube is the return. This was determined from the fact the bottom one comes out of the head, and has the water temp. sensor on it. The top one looks like it feeds under the intake to the front where the water pump is.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2013-11-21 18:45
Nicely done Rich. The height of the radiator cap makes me nervous but I'm sure sure you calculated that..
Still makes me nervous...moving it back to it's original position will make the radiator hoses a real pain to refigure. If there is hood interference, I've figured out I'm going to alter the core support by shortening the height of the supports very bottom crosspiece. I'll have to cut out an inch or so, then weld in something to replace it, just lower. I'll have to figure out something shorter to replace that strange core support bolt, and redrill the radiator mounting holes. I can only lower the radiator that way another 3/4" inch without the lower radiator hose hitting the front crossmember.
Hopefully, that mod won't be needed. Next time I'll consider a different (shorter) radiator..probably a griffin.
While I'm waiting for ordered stuff to come in, I'm working on the tranny shifter. I've got that center console that was designed for a B & M shifter when I thought I was going to be using an AOD tranny. That shifter won't work with the 4R70W tranny. I am going to adapt the Mark viii shifter to my console. Another reason to do this is it gives me the built in overdrive on/off switch.
I took good pics of the linkage as it sat in the Mark, so I'd know where to cut the hole in the tranny tunnel, which is about 6" forward of the very end of the tranny. I could access the area I needed to cutout thru openings in the console, so I was able to get that done without pulling the console. I got the cable linkage cleaned up and temporarily hooked to the tranny. The cable is about 2 inches too short for my particular application, so I'm going to lengthen the cable, and fabricate a cable housing retainer. That's today's project. Once I get the shifter mounted in it's permanent home, I can work on a Bezel to fit the console/shifter together.
Also....I spent a while figuring out which Mustang off road pipes would be best for our application. Best, that is, with budget a strong consideration, since it's not 100% sure this would work. I almost ordered a set made by Pypes because they were stainless and an X crossover, and only $30 more than MAC's. I called the Pypes manufaturer, and found out even though the EBAY ads said they fit Cobras, they in fact don't. He told me Pypes did not manufacture anything that would mate with the Cobra OEM exhaust manifolds, regadless of what their distributors claimed. In the budget category, that left MAC's..which is what Al/DOHC57 has with his Mustang 4.6 drivetrain. Thanks for your input on that, Al. An email to the seller confirmed they will fit the Cobra OEM manifolds, and will fit the manual or automatic trannys. The only downside is they are not stainless, but aluminized steel. I had other options if I wanted to double or triple the 170. price I paid for the Mac's. They do have the 02 sensor bungs installed (4, I actually only need the front 2 on the Mark viii setup), and are not welded to the H pipe, so that's gonna help with trying to fit to the '57.
I am not sure if what I ordered is the same as what Al has...the difference being the H pipe...they make a more elaborate, and I assume better, crossover (not an X) than the simple H pipe I ordered. MAC's number I ordered is 43969.(could be the seller's stock number, not sure)
Anyway...I wanted to get the downpipes installed before I started running my other lines...fuel, A/C, electrical, etc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAC-Ford-Mustang-GT-Cobra-4-6L-99-04-Off-Road-H-Pipe-to-Stock-43969-/300996248336?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A2001%7CModel%3AMustang&hash=item4614c64310&vxp=mtr
Well, I gotta quote Edison again....I now know what isn't going to work. I extended the shifter cable 2 3/4 inches, and cut the leading edge of my spare shifter housing and welded it to the one being used, so I could add the same 2 3/4 to the cable housing suport. That 2 3/4 added let me move the shifter back to where it needed to be,however,the problem is, my console is too high, and therefore puts too much angle/bends on the cable, causing it to bind.
Tommorrows project.....I'm going to weld on a plate to the front of the housing so I can lower where the cable housing is attached by an inch or so. That will aim the cable more in the right direction. I'll probably have to lengthen the hole in the tranny tunnel that the cable passes thru to allow the cable to move in the right direction.
I don't think I'm going to be able to get the shifter up high enough to use gear position indicator. so I may end up with an aftermarket setup for that...or just glue a wooden stick to the console with P N D 1 2 next to the shift handle!
Looking good, not able to give any suggestions on the issues other then look at the routing of the cable with the shifter up where you want it.
Wasp and hornet spray??????
wasp and hornet spray....excellent for killing black widows on contact....killed three in my garage yesterday. This was a bad year for them. I got bit twice when I pulled that Irory Mark viii apart.
wasp spray =3 bucks a can, spider spray=8 bucks a can
The car I got out of west Texas had a gazillion black widows and wolf spiders, sucked them up with the shop vac and those that stayed hidden got it with the presure washer! We have them here as well, never been bitten that I know of. We do have the brown recluse as well, not sure I have ever seen any of them....
I think I moved a little in the right direction today...didn't work on the shifter much, too busy being lazy. I did cut off the extension I welded on in the previous pics, and blacksmithed a new one longer and lower, and welded it on. It took alot of the kinks out of the cable and allowed me to position the shifter up to the top of the console. I now need to go back and relengthen the cable about another 1 1/4 or so, and clamp the shifter in place before I can check it for binding. Just sitting in a free state, the cable is now aimed right at the place it needs to hook up to, just too short again. It does not appear that I am coming off the "pusher" at too great of an angle to cause binding.
Even with the cold, I had to have a look-see at the Mac's Cobra downpipes to try and at least get a feel for whether or not it's gonna work. I will need to drop the tranny crossmember to get them in, but at this point it looks like they're gonna be darn near perfect.
The bigger question mark for me at this point is whether or not the H-pipe is gonna work. If the downpipe clears the crossmember, and the floorpan, without having to tweak the pipes, the h-pipe would have to fit (under the driveshaft) wouldn't it?
BTW, I ordered two oxegen sensors today. O'Reilly's price was 49. each, plus tax. RockAuto's price 45. total, delivered, for the pair. Same brand.
Sorry Rich, off topic but my garage and back yard has always been a haven for black widows and I won't even try to guess how many times I've been bit. I drive the 57 90% of the time and take my truck and mustang out once a week to keep them running. When I grab the keys and the wife asks where am I going I reply with "taking the spiders for a ride" :003:
Cobra downpipes.....they're gonna be far from a perfect fit as I had originaly thought, but I'm gonna give a shot at making them work, as I think the alternative is some very expensive custom exhaust work. Originally, eyeballing them with the tranny crossmember in place, it looked like they were going to pull up pretty close to the floorboards. I dropped the crossmember and got them bolted up, and they are 2 1/2 " below the floorboards, putting them right where the crossmember is. In that position, the h-pipe easily clears everything, but of course they can't be left in that position. Also, the h-pipe comes back so it is underneath the driveshaft.
The fix...I hope....I measured the angle the downpipes are at between the flange and the horizontal portion, and calculated a dim. of 3.88 to cut out and weld back together. This will raise the horizontal leg by 2 1/2", putting it next to the floorboards. It will also move forward the horizontal legs, so the h-pipe is moved frontwards almost 3". This is good because it may move it far enough frontwards for the h-pipe to be under the tranny tailshaft, which is a smaller dia than the driveshaft. At this point I'm not even sure if I can adapt/use the h-pipe because it may interfere with the emergency brake cable. I think at the very least, I may have to relocate the emergency brake cable bracket from the top of the crossmember to the bottom.
Got the passenger side downpipe redone. I cut out 3.88 from the sloped leg. The horizontal area of the pipe is now sitting, or will be, about 1/8" above the crossmember and 1/2 below floorpan..leaving some room for some heat shield if needed. The pipe welded fantastic...love that sizzlin' sound when things are cooking just right. The hardest part was figuring out how to scribe some accurate cutting lines on the pipe!...which turned out to be quite simple. While the Dykem was drying, I cut about a 10" strip of chipboard 3.88 wide, and just wrapped and taped it around the pipe. The chipboard is thin enough to wrap smoothly, but thick enough for a good edge to guide the scriber. Fortunatly I thought to also scibe a line thru the cut marks that I could line up before welding to keep the timing of the bends in the right plane. Looks like we got some warmer weather headed this way in another day, so maybe I can get the driver's side done and the crossmember reinstalled so I can see what, if anything, I need to do to the emergency brake cable, and if I can use the h-pipe.
Does anyone know if the dip stick from a 97 Lincoln mark V111 is a front sump pan. Unable to try on car as it is back in paint shop, second time should be a charm, paint.
My car is now 95% complete mechanically, I have driven it a few blocks with no windows, hood or trunk, loud but ran great with trans, clutch working great. Next is the other 5 % mechanical ( head and tail lights AC grills etc etc.) than headliner and window interior and stainless.
There have been many issues since the fast start , relocate alternator, eliminate oil cooler for clearance, rack an pinion ect ect. and paint.
Anyway I need a front sump dip stick for my 4-6 cobra
All mark viii's were rear sump oil pans. I still have to "play" with mine, but what previous members have done(with the Mark viii motors) was to keep the dip stick that came with it and just shorten it a little so it doesn't hit the what-is-now-the-shallow end of the pan, remarking the "full" position. The one in the '95 I'm using is a cable type dip stick rather than the regular thin flat strip, I don't know if they are all like that. The spare '94 engine I have is that type also.
I haven't shortened mine as I said, but even if I push the dipstick in hard, I cannot hear or feel it hitting the oil pan. It really just feels like a normal dipstick all the way to the bottom. I figured when time came to put oil in, I'd put in the exact amount to fill it per specs, then see what the dipstick reading looks like.
All that said, I don't know what the Mustang has for a dipstick setup, so don't know if anything I said is of any help.
Hope you have gotten resolved whatever issues you had with the car having to back to the paint shop. You mentioned your car was loud...no exhaust yet or just loud exhaust? speaking of which.....
daily progress report...lol....more often than not, a daily lack of progress report. Got the drivers side downpipe shortened, got the tranny crossmember temporarily back in place. With the downpipes just barely snugged so I can wiggle them a little, it looks like it's just going to take a little tweeking to get both the emergency brake setup and the h-pipe installed. The drivers side downpipe is a close fit. Since shortening it, it is turning in towards the h-pipe just over the bracket for the emer. brake cable. It is not jammed in there, I can still move the pipe around a bit, so I can live with that. I may trim the bracket a little after I get the h-pipe attached. I also have to tweak the bracket that holds the pivot bar downwards a little. Currently it is angled upwards, and may not even suppose to be that way to begin with, so a little straightening, bending, or coaxing here and there and the cables should clear just fine.
I do have to modify the h-pipe. Shortening the two downpipes caused the two ends where they attach to the h-pipe to be further apart than they were. I just need to lenthen the crossover piece of the h-pipe. This will also give me the opportunity to make other adjustments if needed.
I so slo....About all I got done today was get the h-pipe cut into 2 pieces, and put in place to see how much I needed to lengthen the cross tube. After determining that I went out looking to see what was available, and found this perfect flex-type connector. They have them in different lengths as well as diameter, and I was able to find one that will work.
The flex pipe I'm using isn't all that flexible in the short length I needed, but it will give me some flex to help get the h-pipe seated properly to the downpipes. Under the braided ss cover is a ss flex tube. The pipe dia just inside my cut lines is a snug fit for the h-pipe.
I couldn't find any sensor hole plugs to close up the 2 extra ones I don't need, but I did find 2 steel freeze plugs the correct diameter. I'll just weld them in.
I did play with the e-brake cable a little bit and got them pretty much clearing everything. I do, however want to change the angle the e-brake cable is exiting the bracket from. Next time I pull the tranny crossmember, I'm going to cut the bracket and reweld the face at a downward angle. Yep, I know, my little drawing on the bracket in the pic is showing backwards from what I'm going to do.
Where did you get the short flex pipe? I have a mustang H pipe mocked up on the 57 and I need a shorty. Mark
Oreilly's. Here's some finished pics. Really gave the H-pipe alot of flexibility once it was welded...more than I thought. It leaves you able to adjust either side of the H without moving the other. I suspect there are more sizes being made than what o'reilly's had on the shelf. Mine was the smallest they had..was just what I needed. I didn't have any problem with fumes/welding, so I suspect at least the inner portion that I welded to was stainless...not galvanized. I also welded the two extra O2 sensor bungs closed.
I also "adjusted" the e-brake brackets so they cleared everything. I've got to go back in tommorrow and lower the passenger side of the H-pipe a little more just for some aditional clearance at the yoke.
LOL...Glad someone is finding my posts helpful. Mustang H-pipe? That kinda surprised me from you, Mark....I guess I can't remember what your working on drivetrain-wise.
Looks nice, you are making good progress, you should have fire in the hole this spring :violent5: If I can get back in the shop I can post some updates, this job I have really cuts into my shop time, Mark
Nice work! Got that bad boy going now! The rest is easy....
Thanks guys.This is as far as I'm going with the exhaust until I hear the right system. LOL...got on the flowmasters website audio where you can pick a car, then listen to audio of all their different mufflers. I couldn't tell one from the other.
Got the new O2 sensors plugged in. Today I'm hopefully gonna get back to the shifter and get that finished up, then onto installing the VintageAir condenser and dryer so I can get those lines made up. I temporarily mounted the hood hinges so I'd know how to route things.
Yes I have resolved the paint and body issues, in fact came out of booth Wed 12/11/13 and looks great, even with out cut and buff,which is being done now.
As for my loud exhaust comment, I drove it without windows , hood, trunk or insulation, car sounds and drives great. Now in the next few weeks all the small detail will come into play and take time.
Rich I tried again to post picture but no luck, I did sent some to you via your e-mail address hope you receive them. As for posting I don't have a clue about Avatar or not, I do understand sizing of pictures but just can't make it happen. clueless in California
"Runs and drives great"...that's awesome. Good to hear. What are you running for exhaust on it?
Call me when it's convienient for you and we'll figure out what the problem is posting. Also great to hear the paint is looking good. Can't wait to see pics..haven't checked my email yet.
Rich
My exhaust consist of stock cobra manifolds connected to 3" with H pipe and ran though 3' FLOWMASTER mufflers located under rear seat area in front of rear axle. The exhaust pipes exit just past the rear wheels at the quarter panels, did not want them out at the rear bumper. If I was to give a better description the exhaust exits much like 70's Torino's or Nova's of the era.
This was quit a feet, with the rear end being narrowed 2 " and lowered 3", the guy doing this job had worked for Gale Banks and definitely had the skill set for this task. He did this with car on jack stands, the system is all mandrel bends and clearance everywhere needed, fantastic job.
How 'bout driving it over to Texas so I can hear it. btw, no pics in the last email I got from you.
Got my Markviii shifter installed where I wanted and operating. It is slightly stiffer than I'd like, but it'll be just fine. I will work some pb blaster into the mechanism and cable. The Mark viii boot on the shifter cable luckily fit the hole I chewed in the floorboard pretty closely. Tommorrow I'll get some sealant put on the boot. I'm going to make a maybe-temporary bezel for the console to try and pretty it up. I may eventually have a billet one machined, but for now it will be vinyl covered wood. I also have to decide if I want to keep the black shifter knob or look for a grey or tan one.
As big a pitb as fitting the shifter was, it would have been imposible without the access panels on the side of the console. I'm sure glad I put those in. I just run springs from one carpet covered panel to the other side to keep them nested in their openings.
Rich I found some Teflon lube at Lowes that did the trick with the heater control cables on the Edsel. It is in a small plastic bottle, looks kinda clear with white stuff in the bottom. Have to shake it up really good to mix all the white stuff into the clear fluid (alcohol I think) and the put it in what ever you want to lube. Made those old cables move as slick as can be!
That would probably work well..the cable housing has a 1/2 guide tube that funnels into the cable tube, and that guide tube aims downward, so I could get some in there and let it work it's way down.
Do you remember what department the lube was in?
I'm not so sure I don't have too much pressure on that top plastic cover and that the gear indicator isn't pushing down on the "pusher"causing a little drag. I've got to play with shims a little so the underside of the console isn't pushing down on that cover.
It is/was (hard to say with all the Christmas stuff) on the main isle at the tool section. The rack it is on has been moved twice in the last three weeks but has remained on the isle (the isle that runs the length of the store in the front) in the tool area.
Found it...LOL...main aisle in the tool department just like you said.
Got another problem resolved this morning. I was going to try and thread the Mark viii tranny cooling lines in place after cutting off the front section where it turned towards the drivers side. I brought the assembly to the local shop that fabricates hydralic lines to make sure they would be able to attach a flex line where I cut them off. They can, and would, but recommended I just go with flex line all the way. As luck would have it, they were out of the fittings that go into the tranny, but he's ordering some and will be here by end of week.
The tranny fittings and tubing BTW, are not metric as I suspected..never checked..they are 5/16 tubing with a 1/2-20 fitting.
Couldn't get the bottle of teflon lubricant inside the console to where the cable tube was, so I did an I V drip type thing using a length of small dia. shrink tubing. Got quite a bit in there, working the shifter back and forth. No binding at all now...stuff worked great. Thanks Bill
Got the bezel for the console started yesterday...far as I got.
Not too much done in the past few days. Did a horible job of attempting to make a bezel for my console at the shifter. Gonna attempt it again today. Need something that's gonna be good enough for a temporary one eventually to be replaced with a machined billet one....my first attempt wasn't.
I also got my ss overflow tank installed.
Rlibew.....or others, what did you do for a fuel pump/lines?
redid the shifter bezel. This really needs a billet bezel, but the redone one I can live with till I get wealthy.
Bob/rlibew replied to a pm I sent him on the fuel pump he was using. His fuel pump corresponds to the '03 Mustang drivetrain he is using. Because it is a regulated fuel pump with no return line, it uses a control module that is intergrated with the Mustang computer....so, not a solution for the Mark viii donor install. Should work for Al/57dohc though.
I'm kicking myself for not looking at the Mark viii pumps before I got rid of them.
Just looked up the Mark viii fuel pump to see what it was I didn't look at. This might work, depending on dimensions. The fuel gage sending unit is built in, so posibly could be put where the oem fuel sending unit was. Downside might be having the fuel lines into the trunk area.
Did some more checking on in tank fuel pump kits, and am pretty sure this is the route I'm going. This is what a friend recently installed in the stock '56 t-bird tank for the 4.6 sohc he installed. He is also putting one of these in a '36 chevy that's getting a 4.6 dohc. Price is half what I was looking at with the phantom fuel pump. They also have a weld in panel available which would make the installation easier.
http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=84/category_id=61/home_id=61/mode=prod/prd84.htm
http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=370/category_id=61/home_id=61/mode=prod/prd370.htm
Looks like its about $150 cheaper than the kit I mentioned earlier by the time you buy the weld in panel. But more complicated instalation with the cutting and welding on a used tank. The other kit is made to work with the ribs already in your stock tank. Keep us updated on the installation.
The Tanks inc unit can be installed just as the Phantom is shown, but the phantom would present the same problem as the Tanks Inc unit if it is installed without being recessed. As with most gas tanks, our tanks mount against the floor of the trunk, so if you didn't recess either unit, you would have that problem of the top plate/fuel lines being into the trunk area. I would still put an access cover in the trunk to get to it in a similar fashion to the oem sending unit.
I didn't see a dimension given as far has how high the Phantom unit is above the mounting surface, but it looks like it would be in the neighborhood of the 1 1/4 the Tanks inc unit.I'm planning on ordering a new tank, so I won't be trying to weld an old unit, even though my old one is in pretty fair shape. If you scroll down on the web page for the recess piece, they show one way of mounting it on the back edge of the tank, that way the lines and wiring would just exit quite easily.
BTW, I don't know about the Mustang setups, but the efi Markviii fuel log already has a fuel pressure regulator mounted to it. I'll post a pic tommorrow of at least what I think it is.
Forgot to mention the Tanks inc site has some instalation pics/videos you can click on. That was really helpful to me. The Phantom unit may be a better quality...maybe quieter...I honestly don't know, but the Tanks unit does use Walbro pumps, and from what I can gather, they are a good brand. As I discussed in the previous post, I think either unit I would recess, so without considering that pre-fabed piece cost, as that is an option that just makes the recessing easier, there is a cost difference of 219....that's enough to pay for the new tank!
Unfortunately a new wagon tank is double that. I am glad you will be the guinea pig for me. :burnout: I hope it works and Walbro has a good rep with the newer Mustang crowd.
LOL.....a fella could get old and gray waiting on me. First, I have to figure out what my priority purchases need to be. Even if I go for the gas tank/pump first, it'll be a long time before I get my car wired and running to know how the fuel pump works.
Last pic is what I confirmed is the fuel pressure regulator. It is attached to the fuel log downstream of the injectors. One less thing I'll need to be concerned with when setting up the fuel supply.
first two pics are of the flex lines I used for the tranny cooling lines. Not too pretty, but will be hard to see after assembly. I routed them where the oem steel lines were, and I wrapped them with titanium exhaust wrap just to be on the safe side...was going to make a bracket to hold them away from the exhaust pipes...then figured it would be easier just to tie them to the dipstick tube with the wrap. As I said, not too pretty, but it works. Those hose fittings are designed to not need a clamp, but I put them on anyway. You need a trained gorilla to push the hose on to them. 3 of the 4 I got them all the way on except for about 1/8"..just couldn't get enough muscle behind them to get it on all the way.
That rubber/steel hose going up over the lower radiator hose is the old oem power steering line, which will be replaced before too long.
Rich take a look at the pump from a 93 - 96 F150 rear tank. It is a return type system. That tank is fairly shallow, might fit without major mods. As far as clearance goes...there is a hole in the trunk floor to allow access to the fuel sender. Might work to do the same thing with the fuel pump either way you go.
Thanks for the info, Bill. I've already ordered the Tanks inc. unit. I ordered the PA-4 and the weld in recessed box.
worked on getting the oem Mark viii intake housing reworked to fit under the ledge on the firewall. I was hoping to heat the plastic enough with a heat gun to reform it, but no such luck Too thick, too tough, heat resistant. I cut out enough of a notch for it to fit in...similar fashion that Bob Claiborn had done on his, except I had to notch further because I set my engine back further. Now I've got to play with different ways of closing it back up. Claiborn riveted a thin aluminum piece in place. I'm gonna try moulding something in if I can figure out what will adhere to this plastic. It's got to be secure...I sure don't want to be sucking in pieces of stuff to the intake.
I don't think I've got room for, or want, the big filter box that was on the Mark viii, but I'm going to take a look at it tomorrow.
The 2 chambers marked with a red X I'm going to delete if I can. No sensors going to them, just seem to be some type of extra air chamber. Does anyone know what the purpose of these are? There are no sensors or hoses, etc. coming off these.
Had 4 guys over the house this morning from my buddie's garage...got their opinions on stuff while they were here. I found out those 2 chambers are baffles..kinda work like a muffler. So, they are coming off. I'm pretty sure at this point also I'm just going to run a K & N filter setup on the inside of the Engine compartment and not go thru the inner fender. Also it looks like the battery would be better in the trunk area, so I may give up on trying to squeeze it in up front. Next I need to figure the condenser lines and which direction to go with those.
So anyways those are the things to be worked on next, at least I've finally got a gameplan...it'll be interesting to see how or if the gameplan changes as I actually proceed.
Rich - mounting the battery in the trunk is a good solution. I would run the cables under the car using insulated tie downs on the inside of the frame with a battery shut off switch. Installing the cables inside the rockers could present problems(corrosion, accessibility), etc. in the future.
A little progress....got my condenser mounted, well 3 of the 4 brackets. Also started on reworking the Mark viii air intake. I notched the back end of it to fit under the firewall ledge as posted in previous pics. I checked my tube of por-15's por patch and it says for plastics, an adhesive as well as seam sealer..great. I started by "tack welding " a piece of window screen on with a hot glue gun. This kept the screen in place while the por patch set up. I got two thick layers put on and sanded a bit. It wasn't completly set up due to the cold weather. but I could tell it was going to work really well to get an acceptable finish on the reworked areas and is sticking very well to the plastic housing...won't be a problem feathering a good edge so I can get it painted or powder coated. I also closed up an 1 1/2 dia hole where I cut a tube off. I used a metal hole cover and bent it to shape, then gobbed a bunch of por patch around the clips and snapped it in. Likewise, a 1/2 x 1 1/2 rectangular hole where I cut off an air chamber I didn't want was also plugged with the screen and por patch. It may take a week or so to get another few coats put on and dried enough to finish with the cold weather.
after two layers and a bit of sanding. I'm gonna get a third layer put on this morning. Unlike por-15, por patch has a good shelf life after opening. This tube is at least a year old.
Got the final coat of por patch put on the air intake a few days ago..too cold in the garage to sit and sand on it now, so it'll get set aside for a while and on to the next project.
Next project: gas tank and fuel pump. I got my gas tank in from Auto city Classic. I ordered the Ni-terne finish, my only concern was if it would cause a problem similar to welding galvanized (I'll never do that again), and it does not. It welds really well with no fumes that I can tell.
I thought I had ordered my fuel pump and installation pan from Tanks inc two weeks ago, but on checking on the order last week, discovered I apparently never finalized the order. Funds were getting short anyway, so I reordered just the installation pan for now. I'll reorder the pa-4 pump next payday!
The pump is going to require 1 1/4 clearance at the top of the tank to avoid clearance issues with fuel lines and the trunk floor when the tank is mounted. The pump also requires a minimum of 6" tank depth. I Dykemed and layed out the tank, using the weld-in pan from Tanks Inc to scribe the cut lines, then used a piece of 1 1/2 angle to scribe the cut depth. After cutting the opening, I Dykemed the weld-in pan and used the tank to scribe those cuts.
Got it tacked in yesterday..ran out of shielding gas for the welder, so had to stop. The pan is set at 1 5/16 from the top, and that leaves a depth of 7" to the tank bottom..so all appears to be well in tankland.
By far the most tedious part of the job was the deburring and cleaning. Lots of burrs and grit from the cutoff tool. I used a plastic coated magnetic pick up tool to 'sweep' the inside of the tank thoroughly..got most of it. Also a lot of blowing out with an air nozzle. I then soaked new microfibre towels with brake cleaner and gave the inside a thorough wipe down. After the welding is done, I'll do a final cleaning. Tanks Inc. recommends a really strong magnet inside the tank with at least a quart of WD-40 to slosh around. I guess the idea is when any loose stuff passes the magnet suspended in the WD-40, it'll stick to the magnet. Sounds like a good idea to me. I'd follow that up with a rinse of Gasolene before installing the tank. Probably would also be a good idea to change out the fuel filter after the first tank of gas.
I also ordered new Stainless gas tank straps. They're made well, but not too pretty...yet!
I cut off quite a bit, btw, from the weld in pan..it comes as a 5 sided piece large enough for a sender as well if needed.
Serious tank surgery!!!!!
When it was open, did you add a surge box?
What's a surge box? If it's the same as a baffle/tray setup to prevent air from getting in the pickup tube with low fuel, it is part of the Tanks inc fuel pump setup. If it isn't, I didn't.
Also got the welding done. I've got to do a leak check tomorrow. Or...I could just wait til it's all done and see what happens when I install that flame thrower exhaust. Had a bit of a time fixing the blow-thru, but finally got it. I had no problems with blow-thru today at all. All in all, I was really pleased with my welding. I was able to get a nice small bead, but with good penetration. In the past I've had trouble getting a small weld, but for one thing, I welded inside so I wasn't contending with the wind blowing away the shielding gas. I also played with the wire feed controls a bit so I was able to get a nice steady, but slow feed for a change. Love that sizzling sound when things are going right. I'd weld about 3/8 of an inch and stop, but keep the torch there until the red glow went out, then another 3/8 until I got all the way around. I ground off most of the weld, but I'm not going to try and get it flush. A close look at the ground area shows no breaks, cracks, or voids in the weld. I'm happy with it.
Nice work, looks like you got that "wire/heat" thing figured out!
Thanks Bill...now, if I could just afford a helmet so I didn't have to weld with my eyes closed.
Save up for a decent mid range priced auto dim. Best money I spent with respect to patch panel work!
Actually got on of those years ago..but a cheap auto dim. I just use the eyes closed excuse cause my welding never looks pretty. I do need a better helmet though, at least want to borrow a good one to see if visibility while welding is any better than what I've got already. Can't tell ya how many times I've wandered off a seam thinking I was right on it, but ended up laying down a bead 1/4 off to the side.
I need to plug up the oem fuel line hole..does anybody know offhand what the thread size is? I think it is a 1/2-20. It is not a 1/4 npt or 1/2 -13. If I could just find my thread gages...need to clean up my shop.
I also need to figure out whether to use the new vent location in the fuel pump assembly, or plug it and use the oem location.
The unused oem fuel line port/fitting is 1/2-20. Picked up a allen head set screw and set it in with sealant.
Also just did a leak test on my welding. All good except the seam area where I went back to fix the blow-thru. I was hammering on that area a bit, so it doesn't surprise me. To check for leaks I used laquer thinner with a little dykem added for bluing so I could see it.
Back to welding after I let the lacquer thinner evaporate thoroughly. After I get that fixed, I'll por-15 the seam from the inside for insurance. Yes, the por-15 is recommended for sealing gas tanks.
EDIT..........DO NOT por-15 the inside of your tank. Not enough tooth, the por-15 will eventually come off.
Got it rewelded and checked...no leaks...Yeah!! I ground some of the weld off to clean it up a bit, but left most of it on this time. I por-15'd a test patch on the cutout piece to make sure it sticks with the Ni-tern coating. I'll let it dry overnight and check it in the a.m.
The por-15 does not adhere well to the plating on the tank..so not a good idea.
Don't know what fuel pump it is set up for, but I just found out today Bob Drake sells a '57 passenger car gas tank already set up for an in tank fuel pump.
Got my air intake prettied up a bit..two toned it to match the engine compartment. It's now ready for a 45 degree adapter/connector and the K & N filter.
Looking good Rich! Once life gets a little more settled/slowed down for me (this summer hopefully) I will get started on a swap in my 58. Haven't decided on the swap you are doing (I have a 49K mile complete pull from a 93 Mark VIII) or a 93 Cobra 5.0 that I have. I can't even decide between a 5 Speed or Auto as I have either for both combinations. Why did you decide on the Mark VIII swap?
Before I forget, Tanker, edit: Thor!!you've got a big swap meet coming up in your area in 3 weeks or so, right? I may need a road trip by then, but I also need to stay home and spend my money on parts instead of traveling.
Many reasons for the Mk viii decision. First, I owned a new '95 Mkviii, best car I ever had. Good gas economy, dependable, moderate power with easy build to higher hp, '93-'95 (and maybe '96) mk8's had the strongest blocks of any 4.6, The blocks were cast in Italy. Alum. block, alum heads=weight not a factor for handling, suspension, etc.
I really like the way the dual runner intake setup functions, cheap availability, a real high mileage expectantcy without major repairs. Ron Francis makes a wiring harness for it. Sounds petty, but a major factor for me was that I really like the looks of these engines. The sheer size is just awesome. I really hate looking into an old engine compartment and seeing alot of empty space....as you can see from my pics..there's not alot of space left. The earlier engins can be easily changed to coil on plugs to eliminate the coil packs and plug wires. The mating tranny is a 4 speed auto with O.D.
Your '93 computer may not have the programmed-in speed governor..the earliest ones didn't, and if you have the '93 driveshaft it was the only year they used a one piece shaft, again the earlier ones built for '93. The mk8 driveshaft is almost usable on the short wheelbase '57's (and8's) as is, and should be perfect with a 1" longer yoke on the differential. If you '58 is a Fairlane, I would think the driveshaft would have to be lengthened.
Haven't got a whole lot done..been in one of those one step forward and two steps back modes. I did get in my K & N / Spectre air intake stuff. Looks good and fit like a glove on the end of the modified oem Mark viii air intake. I could have gone a little bigger(length) on the filter. I've been mostly working on the A/C lines, at a standstill on those until some replacement parts come in. I ordered a tight 90 degree #8 fitting for the compressor condenser to get me around the hood hinge. I ordered it from www.purechoicemotorsports.com.
Great people to work with.I can't remember who on this forum recommended them, but thanks. While I was on the phone, I found out they also make springlock adapters for the fuel lines. They come with the push in springlock fittings on one end, a 30" braided stainless hose, and a #6AM fitting on the other end. 49 bucks per hose. I'll post a pic of those when I get them.
Edit...I should have noted that all the intake stuff to fit the mk 8 housing was 4 inch.
Got my pieces from Pure Choice in today. What I got for the fuel injection was not what I was expecting, but actually will work better for me. Also less money. They do make an adapter fitting that has a 30" hose attached, but what I got was just a set of springlock to AN6 fittings. My oem fuel log is just a few inches in front of the air intake duct, and I was a little worried maybe the flex line didn't have enough flex to allow me to get it under the duct being that close. Having them send just adapters will allow me to use an angled fitting to connect.
The fitting for the condenser top line should work perfectly to clear the hood hinge. A pic of what I got....
Another day of one step forward and two back. I got the fittings and barrier hose I ordered from Cold Hose today to complete the A/C lines on the engine side of the firewall. Found out I had made a wrong assumption with the springlock fittings off the compressor. The small one is a number 8, and everything I ordered for that line fits. The wrong assumption I made was with the big tube. It is not a #10, as I had thought. I could not find any dimensional references for the springlock fittings, so I am going to assume (again) it has to be a #12, because that's the only other larger springlock size available. I ordered the #12 springlock fitting, some #12 barrier hose, and a #10 o-ring to #12 beadlock fitting for where it ties into the #10 suction line.
Rich,
You are correct. The Swap meet in Wichita is the 7th and 8th of Feb. the same place it was last year. I won't be able to go by he looks of it because I will be out of town. Thanks for the input on the engine choice. Your car sure looks like it is coming together.
Not too much to add..was taking a break. I did get the final 2 engine side AC lines installed. They were the 8 and 12 size hoses off the compressor. The fittings were from Cold Hose, and I had them crimped locally at a hydraulics shop...8 bucks for the crimping while I waited. I also got the trinary switch added to the dryer
Rich the wife must be at work, with all those car parts on the kitchen counter. :061:
LOL...I just make sure they're clean parts I'm bringing in(if she's home)
Just don't get caught using the bath tub to wash an engine block or the dish washer to clean a carburetor or the oven to cure manifold paint.....all of those are a sure way to find out if she has a sense of humor!
Rich,nice work.too bad i was not around could have answered alot of your questions
LOL...I know, I know. The thread you were running with Claiborn was a great help though. A lot of the details were left out with Claiborns actual installation, but I think I got, or are getting most of them worked out pretty well as I go along. Money has been a big hangup, so having to spend a lot of time figuring out small details hasn't been such a bad thing...been kinda fun for a newbie anyways. At least I proved to myself a statement made a few years ago that this was "not a job for a one bay garage with a floor jack and a cherry picker" just isn't true...It can be done, even by a first timer.
As usual, a number of guys on the forum have been a great help and source of encouragement, along with some local friends.
When I get closer to being done, I'll condense a thread so it's got all the pertenant info without all the side distractions to wade thru.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2014-02-22 12:15
Rich,nice work.too bad i was not around could have answered alot of your questions
Well, I got one for ya....After I get my '95 engine running with no alterations, I want to swap over to cop to eliminate the coil packs and plug wires. I want to do this primarily to clean up the engine compartment. The low miles engine I ended up using was running perfectly when I pulled it from the donnor car, so I don't want to do any mods to it until I get the wiring harness and the chassis harness wiring done. That way I'll know if something isn't working right, it's not because of any mods I made to the engine. Anyways, my question is this...I couldn't find a Mark viii donor car for the cop valve covers, so I pulled a set off a 97 DOHC Continental. Is there any reason they wouldn't be compatable from the fwd Continental engine?...as near as I can tell without pulling the covers of the Mark viii engine, they appear to be identical except of course for the cop setup.
I'm ordering the rest of the stuff for the fuel lines today. I ordered the Tanks Inc PA-4 fuel pump and some fittings yesterday. I'm going to run air-quipt type ss flex lines off the engine, and mount the fuel filter on the slopped portion of the firewall. I'm going with a Lincoln oem fuel filter because they are redily available at auto parts stores. I'll be picking up some adapters for the Ford type filter at Pure Choice when I go to Phoenix. The adapters allow the quick-change to a an6 fitting. Off the gas tank I'll probably run the new rubber-like hose (for the new fuels) to the hard lines. The hard lines I'm going to use 3/8 NiCopp for the supply and return with an6 fittings.
Question....What is the best way to put an6 fittings on a hard fuel line?... 37 degree flare?, compression?, other?
SS Aeroquip flexible hose should be the Teflon lined...not the rubber lined. The rubber lined will deteriorate and should be changed out on a 3-5 year schedule as recommended by the manufacturer. Since I already used Teflon lined for brake, HVAC, and power steering lines, why add in another fitting and line type with less durability. So all fuel lines are changed to Teflon. More expensive now but cheaper later!
definetly. The teflon was also what I used on my A/C lines. The stuff I was talking about for back at the gas tank is a high pressure fuel line impervious to all the new fuel additives...I just can't remember the name of it, but it's a reinforced "rubbery" type of hose, not braided like the aeroquip I'll use up front. It's blue in color.
Speaking of blue in color...what's up with all the Earl's and areoquip type fittings that are blue and red...man those are ugly.
Most of the past few days was spent researching and in the Edison Tradition, finding out what wasn't going to work. I've decided not to try and flip the hydo booster upside down..it'll still be ugly, so not worth the effort. I did find a plastic remote reservoir from a Ford 250-350, 2003, that had two return lines, but I am going to find a stainless remote tank...maybe even a radiator overflow would work...that I can add the power steering fittings that I need. Plenty of aluminum stuff out there, but I can't weld aluminum and I suspect finding alum fittings would be difficult anyways.
Gasman...did you use the teflon lined hoses on your return lines as well? I know your not running an outside cooler or a remote reservoir, so you may not have any push-on type connections. I did find a cooler that was set up for an-6 fittings, and I guess I could do the same if I weld on new fittings to a s.s. tank. I don't know if I go with the plastic tank and it's push-on connections if I'll be able to even use the teflon hoses there.
The fuel return lines run at a reduced pressure and would erode as fast. The short answer is yes...my return lines are 'teflon' lined...same line, same fittings and piece of mind.
hydraulic booster is ugly but it works GREAT and clears the valve covers. You don't have the cam overlap issues of no vacuum at idle. If I want power brakes that work at idle, I need a huge vacuum reservoir or an electric vacuum pump. When I added this system to my car, it was quite uncommon on custom car...not so much anymore.
Aluminum and stainless reservoirs are plentiful and can be pricey. Steel and aluminum weld in bungs are common and cheap. Stainless bungs are less common but you can find them. I out source aluminum and stainless welding. I love tools and want all of them but I have only so much room. Unfortunately, stainless/aluminum MIG accessories or TIG machine has not made the cut...least not yet!
Don't overlook Mustang GT for the hydraulic boost/power steering reservoir. Your car has so much custom stuff, maybe a custom reservoir might look better than OEM plastic. Plastic might be the cheaper and easier way to go but would be a easy upgrade later on.
quote Gary:"The fuel return lines run at a reduced pressure and would erode as fast. The short answer is yes...my return lines are 'teflon' lined...same line, same fittings and piece of mind."
I guess I wasn't clear on my question...it was the booster/rack return lines I was inquiring about.
My teflon braided hose for the fuel lines(both ways) has been ordered and should be here today or Monday.
The Mustang reervoir is identical to the Markviii's..only one return port. I'm still looking for a stainless resevoir...haven't found one yet. I did find a few aluminum ones though. I can outsource the welding on that if I have to.
I thought mig welding stainless was the same as mild steel, only required ss wire if you also wanted the weld to be rust resistant as well.
To clarify, I also used Teflon high pressure hose for the PS/PB return lines. Same reasons...one product for lines and fittings.
MIG welding stainless is harder to get quality. It does require stainless wire but also a stainless gas mix. Thin stainless uses a different gas mix than thicker stainless. I weld stainless exhaust with stainless wire and mild steel gas mix for non show welds. The welds turn black. With the exhaust 4 inches from the ground, no one sees it!
I found some banjo fittings for the hydro boost and the rack that will adapt the 16/18mm threaded holes to AN-6, and I found a cooler that has the -6 fittings as well. The banjo fittings I found at pure choice, expensive, but they'll allow me to use the -6AN straight fittings which are neater/more compact, and a lot less money than the 90 degree fittings, so overall not that much more money. I'm still looking at reservoirs to see if I can find better that what I have found, but I'll probably end up with something I can modify,or have modified, to have 2 6an inlets, and the oem style larger oulet.
Rich what computer are you going to use?the early 93s do not have a speed limiter
I'm using an unmodified 95 Mark viii..same car I pulled the engine and tranny from. I remembered you had said that about the '93's...lol...at my age, trust me I don't think I'll ever find out what top end is on my car, so for me, it doesn't matter. I have been keeping my eyes open at the local yards for an early '93 though, I already have a '94 backup, another wouldn't hurt. I also read the early '93's had a one piece driveshaft.
spring forward
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-03-08 22:41
I also read the early '93's had a one piece driveshaft.
That is correct.
when i read this post Rich,you had said you were changing to coil on plug.now that needs 8 coil drivers in the computer,the early computer uses 4 coil drivers,so i am not sure if the swap will work.maybe you know something i do not.FYI
One of the members on the markviii forumn makes a harness to complete the conversion, along with the valve covers from a donor car and of course the 8 coils, however I'm not sure that harness would be hard to make, and for sure I don't know enough (or anything actually) about the system to figure it out for sure, but I guessed what the guy was doing was taking each of the 4 wires that "fed" the coil packs and splitting them to go directly to the two corresponding coils/cylinders instead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but each of the 2 coilpacks has 2 coils, each coil firing 2 cylinders simultaneously, which is why I am assuming a total of 4 signal feed wires to the coil packs. If that is correct, would the newer computers have been changed to emit 8 pulses rather than 4, each signaling 2 coils as I think the older computers did? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, I'm sure the guys are not using the newer computers...pats, elimination of dual runner intake, etc., nor are they reprogramming the original computer. Also, I'm not sure what the ignition control module in '93-'95 Marks actually did. In '96 that module function was incorporated into the computer, but '96's still had the coil packs.
So, trying to simplify what I said above...The coil pack systems had 4 coils, each firing two cylinders simultaneously, so instaed of one pulse to a coil feeding two cylinders, it's just a matter of splitting that pulse wire so it feeds 2 coils, 1 cylinder each.
Your thoughts please...as I said I was just trying to figure out how those guys were doing it.
http://www.markviii.org/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=81720&mesg_id=81720&page=6
Sorry Rich but this is off no useful help, what I know about these newer type engines you could put on the head of a pin and have roam left over :003:, I'm just curious. Two cylinders that fire simultaneously baffles me. I remember reading something when my wife owned a 95 CV that the plugs on one bank were different then on the other and they fired with a reverse polarity or something like that. Glad I never had to work on it because I was at a total loss :005:
Rich the electrical book I have for a 2001 V-8 Explorer (302 small block) that has the coil packs. It has a pair of coil packs, 4 outputs each, there are 4 seperate leads into the plug for each of the packs. The computer plug shows 8 outputs for the coils and 8 outputs for the fuel injectors. The book I had for the 98 MK VIII went with the car, it was a coil on plug engine. Just don't remember (It left here in March 2010) the configuration for it. If you hit that web site you had with all the wiring diagrams and such for any car you wanted to pay for it will allow you to sort out the compartibiliy issue.
Given the C-O-P MKs were OBD II I'm going to make an educated guess that you will need to change the computer.
If a computer change is necessary, then I won't do the change. I just followed the links starting with the Markviii thread I posted(one page, last post 1 1/2 years ago), and got to a svtperformance website where the thread is active, 49 pages of it, and up to date. I've got a lot of reading to do when I get back home! a few pages I read indicates what he has done was to make a harness that plugs into the original coil pack connectors. That may have changed, since the beginning of the thread goes back to 2010. I'll do some posting on this when I find out more.
Rich i looked at the other sites you listed.i understand now how they are making the 4 coil drivers work with 8 coils.sorry for making your head hurt
Hopefully, after I read the long thread I mentioned, I'll understand it also. I'm glad you checked it out. Been too busy/tired having fun in Phoenix to read thru it.
a little background info,when i worked for ford in the 80's and 90's as a mechanic, my speciality was electrical and fuel injection
Highball had made a comment that my statement about firing two cylinders simultaneously was confusing to him.....probably because I made a statement not knowing squat about what was actually happening. So...how does the 4 total coil setup on the coilpack versions actually work? Are they firing simultaneously, or is there some type of delay mechanism built into the coilpacks? Not being a mechanic, I assumed one piston on each bank was firing at the same time. LOL...I'm sure building a long list of wrong assumptions.
engines have what are called running mates,when one cylinder is ready to fire, its running mate is on the exhaust.so what they do is fire the coil in pairs,two plugs at a time,they say firing the plug on exhaust lowers pollution
I understand that now. Firing on the exhaust stroke to try and burn off any unburned fuel. I'm so far behind on technology :003: and no plans to try and catch up.
Gary..thanks for the explanation. Typing Canadian Ranchero is way too much typing..we're gonna have to start calling you CanRan, or CanadaR.
BTW, got thru page 10 of the link at the Mustang forum and found this, which is probably what Canadian R. was thinking about:
"This swap doesn't change anything in the ignition system other than the physical layout of it. Inside each tower coil there are two smaller coils that fire two pistons each using wastespark. The COP coversion does the exact same thing but uses one coil per-each cylinder, still using wastespark. No difference whatsoever. My limited understanding of the system tells me that we can't actually wire our cars to be non-wastespark without major changes to the ignition system, the real COP system allows each coil to fire independently. Our cars are limited to the pairing of the coils to fire the sister cylinder at the same time. So you're really not doing anything other than changing the physical location of the coils, and making it so that each plug has it's own coil.
This has been done multiple times and has been proven to work on our cars, I don't think anyone has actual empirical evidence to support the differences between stock and the conversion or any ill effects after doing the swap. People have done it for years, people have done it in this thread using this harness, it works. If only for aesthetics, it works.
Sorry for that mess of a thought."
LOL...I don't even want to know wth wastespark is.
Resolved a few problems with the hydroboost/PS/cooler/reservoir system. I picked up hydroboost and rack banjo fittings from Pure Choice that will help keep the lines tidy., and I ordered a 4 pass cooler with 6an fittings from summit. The cooler was only 34 ish, so not worth adapting the markviii cooler. I also found a guy that will make me a S.S. power steering reservoir with 2 returns. I'm just waiting on a price so I can get it ordered. should be around 100. He said he makes them all the time..knew it was for a hydroboost system. He sent a pic of one he made in the past.
I also picked up a battery tray at SoCal Speed Shop in Phoenix. I'm pretty sure I'll have enough roo on the driver's side wheel well to get it under the fender and enough room to actully get the battery in (Optime on it's side). I'll have to make sure I don't use up any of the access space when I mount the PS reservoir. I'll need 8" or less space to get the battery in and out. Anyway, for 30. bucks, I didn't want to pass on it.
Got a price on the stainless reservoir. He's going to put the 2 6AN fittings on the side and change the bottom fitting to a .655 tube so I can still use the oem metric rubber hose so I won't have to alter the power steering pump. 125. his ebay name is j.a.c. specialties, btw. I think he's the same guy I got my overflow tank from. very easy to work with.
I read about 1/2 of the 49 pages on the 4.6 coil pack to cop conversion. Very few of the guys had a problem of the dozens that posted, and I think all but one of those turned out to be either an unrelated problem or doing something wrong that was easily fixed. I'm thinking now what I should do is get my valve covers changed to the cop's while I have my front sheetmetal off, and just replug in the spark plug wires. That way I won't be attempting any electrical mods until after the engine is wired and running. I'm gonna pull a plug wire from my spare engine just to make sure they fit inside the cop valve covers. I would guess the well for the cops are larger, so I can't see how that wouldn't work..at least temporarily.
A little change in my planning....I realized two things with the cop conversion. I found out I can put the cop valve covers on and still temporarily use the old coil packs/plug wires. That way I can replace the valve covers while they are still easy to get to without doing any mods to the oem wiring until after the engine is wired and running. I also realized this morning, it's not only the sheetmetal that is going to make changing valve covers a pain...it's the hydoboost as well. So, now that I've got everything to install the hydroboost and lines, and spent my monthly budget doing that, I'm going to have to wait until the cop valve covers are installed. I need to decide on powder coating or polishing. I'm thinking the polishing is going to end up with too much detailing time in the future trying to keep them looking good, so I'm leaning towards powdercoat.
Polish then clear powder coat.
Wasn't aware they could do a clear powder coat. Thanks for that idea. Actually I was going to a powder coat place today my local buds were telling me about yesterday. Don't they have to sandblast for the powder coat to stick? That's what they told me on the gas tank I inquired about a few weeks ago. That's why I elected not to go with it on the "nitern" coated tank.
I was also thinking I'd paint them the dark silver to match my car, then clearcoat over that with header clearcoat to make it a little more resistant to chemicals.
Most of the "mag" wheels on new cars are powder coated. Sand blasting is the absolute best surface for powder coating but....all the appliances in your kitchen are powder coater (unless they are stainless), they do not sand blast them. Your Mac tool box is powder coated, no blasting there. Just get it as clean as you can, bake them after cleaning, let cool a little, put the powder on and bake again. Handle with clean gloves to keep body oils off, your finger prints will show up (don't ask me how I know this....).
I got in the power steering stainless reservoir yesterday. I couldn't be happier. j.a.c._specialties out of Kerman, Ca. made it for me for my particular application. His standard ebay units are an inch or so shorter, have one 6an return fitting, and a 10an bottom fitting. The bracket is aluminum. I had him add the second return fitting, and change the bottom fitting to a push on type fitting, .655 dia. to match the metric hose size on the PS pump. I did not want to alter the oem pump for the aeroquip hose that I'm using elsewhere, so having the push on fitting and keeping the rubber hose was the easiest way. It is baffled, and has an o-ring screw on cap. Anyway, like I said, I couldn't be happier, and Jaime is one I'll highly recommend. Honestly, I really don't know how he can fabricate these from stainless on a special order basis for 125. + ship. His standard units are 55-75 depending on baffled or not. Jaime added some length to the housing to keep turbulence at a minimun due to my second added fitting.
I did tell him to vent it, not sure if I needed that, but I didn't want to hold him up machining and welding it while I found out. I figured I could close up the very small vent hole near the top of the tank if I needed it unvented. So, guys, should I leave the vent hole? You can't see it in the pic I posted, but it's in the neck of the tank, about a 1/16" dia. hole
You guys have made some great info available. I have been researching putting a 93 mark VIII in my 58 Edchero project. I will not offend anyone by posting my project here but I may PM you guys as I work through it. I have read Canadian Ranchero and the wagon swap. I don't know where I will be posting my project yet.
Hey BadDog...welcome to the forum. Lots of great info in those threads by Canadian Ranchero/Gary and Bob Claiborn. Claiborn has disappeared from the forum, but after missing Gary for a year or two, he is back with us...and is always a great help.Those threads and Canadian's encouragement are what got me started.
Let us know more about your 4.6 project plans, and your car in general. You certainly won't be "offending" anyone by posting questions, btw. That's how we all learn. Did you happen to see the pic I posted of an Edsel/Ranchero at the Pavilion Cruise? we love pics..I suggest doing an intro in the general discusion or member's rides areas.
You've been doing alot of reading....sorry this thread has gotten so long. I will go back at some point in time and make a condensed version of it,just including the stuff that worked. What I wanted to do with this thread was include all the stuff that was trial and error,since there is very little info available on the internet that I've found. Gotta warn you with this thread...This is my first ever conversion, so take whatever I post here in that light...I am for sure no expert or long time car builder....one of reasons this thread got so long...I'm always looking for help on everything.
Rich
Quote from: nonobadog on 2014-04-14 01:41
I will not offend anyone by posting my project here but I may PM you guys as I work through it. I have read Canadian Ranchero and the wagon swap. I don't know where I will be posting my project yet.
I'm not sure anyone would mind you posting here....the 58 is just about the exact same thing....matter of fact the Ranchero is the same fire wall back....and if we were sensitive to folks modifying their cars the boards here would be empty.
So....having said that, IMHO, post away! As Rich said....WE LIKE PICTURES...and we do run the serious risk of learning stuff from the "new guy"! and by the way, Welcome aboard!
What Bill said! Lol!
:unitedstates:
Thanks I appreciate it. Some forums get real "focused". I will try to get some pictures in my profile in a coupe of days.
Got to work on the '57 for a bit this week. I made some brackets from really light weight tubing fo the PS fluid cooler and did a check fit. Now I need to take it appart and repaint. I also got the custom made reservoir mounted...I wish everything was that easy. Just had to transfer the original mounting holes to the new bracket. Fit was perfect...the oem rubber supply hose to the pump just pushed right on like it was made for it (it was come to think of it). The oem mounting holes were actually on two fingers that the new reservoir just nestled right in between. The finish on the tank when I got it was a light grained surface which I played with for a while to see how much work it was going to take to polish it up. I think too much..it'll take hours, particularly around the two inlets. I think I'll just settle for a clean skotchbright look. It'll be a good project to do while watching a ball game.
got the cop valve covers cleaned, painted, and all new gaskets and grommets installed. Glad I did this..found out the #5 cylinder was leaking oil into the spark plug well, so 2 birds killed with one stone. I painted them with a spray bomb color close enough to the body color. I'm still working on the coil covers...hard to get a real consitant polish on them without actually being able to take a flycut on the top surface to remove the casting skin, but I'm not going that far..so they'll have to do with 80% happy.
I went to the salvage yard yesterday and pulled a ps reservoir bracket off a '98 Mark viii. When I actually remove the coil packs, it will leave a big heavy cast aluminum bracket that mounted both the coil pack and the ps reservoir, so the cop mark viii bracket will get rid of that extra bracketry.
The coil cover in the pic is actually the passenger side I just layed on there to see how it looked..haven't polished the driver's side yet. I'm not going to do the cop harness until after I get the engine running, so I'll just plug the spark plug wires in thru the cop valve covers for now.
Today I'll get the passenger side cover installed and see what I need to do to hook up the relocated pcv valves/smog stuff.
Nice work guy!
Thanks, Bill. I got the passenger side cover put on yesterday. I've got a half dozen little projects now to adapt everything to/around the new covers. The egr sensor connector no longer has enough room, so I've got to move that up. The bracket that held the intake plenum strap will not fit over the aluminum coil covers...etc, etc.
Got all the pcv/crankcase adapted to the new valve covers. I had to shorten the driver's side tube quite a bit, so I just cut the tube ends off and connected them with a short length of rubber tubbing. This was the tube that went into a tee at the throttle body, and I did not know where the other branch of that tee was hooked up to...I had just cut the tube when I pulled the engine. I found out it went to a crankcase vent canister mounted under the fender..not needed, so I'll replace that tee with just an elbow. The driver's side oem hoses and fittings fit just fine with the new valve covers..just picked up a new moulded rubber elbow fro the Ford Dealer to replace the old one that was cracked. Don't think I've ever got a part before from a Ford dealer for 2 bucks!
I used the old air plenum bracket off my spare engine to modify the bracket I'm using to make it tall enough to clear the billet coil covers.
While I had my intake plenum off, I finally remembered to check my gas pedal to make sure I had full throttle when down to the floor...and I do not, so I've got to modify that some more. I'm using the Mark viii unmodified throttle cable and gas pedal. I had made a 5/8 plate to mount under the gas pedal, but apparently I need to go to about an inch so the pedal has enough travel to get full throttle before it hits the toeboard.
Edit...The throttle pedal arm was not hitting the toeboard. The pedal assembly has to be more in an upright position than the angle on the '57 toeboard. The pedal bracket was leaning so far back, the arm was bottoming out on it's own bracket. I'm in process of modifyinng the bracket so that it is wedge shaped..should do the trick.
Nailed the throttle linkage. I cut off the mounting bracket from a spare assembly and welded it to the modified one in a wedge shaped. Got it installed with the nylon spacer and it's just where it needs to be...full throttle just as the pedal arm touches the carpet. I am using this with a traditional floor style pedal as well..sounds screwy, but looks more traditional, and looks better as the gas pedal matches my brake pedal...and operates smoothly
Once again, not too much getting done as I've been working on house siding. I'm going to post some hydroboost info here even though I was running a seperate thread on it.
I got the linkage made up by cutting off the eyelet end of the hydroboost' pushrod and welding on a 3/8-24 length of allthread. The stock '57 pushrod was cut off and a shortened version a 3/8-24 connector nut was welded to it. With the protrusion of the hydroboost housing in towards the cabin about 3". there is not a whole lot of room to work with getting all the components together. It works, and is hooked up right where I was wanting it (pushrod at rest, brake pedal in spring retracted against rubber stop position), but I don't have any adjustment left if I need it down the road. If that happens, I'll have a 1/2" steel spacer plate made up with a plasma cutter to space the booster unit away from the firewall. I've still got one last fitting to do to finish up the hydroboost/pump/reservoir/rack lines, then on to the Wilwood proportioning valve to finish up the front brake lines....after I verify which port on the master is front and which is back.
In hindsight, were I to do it again, the 1/2" spacer under the boost unit would make it an easier job.
One added note..I had tossed arounfd the idea of turning the boost unit upside down to keep the lines on the bottom for a cleaner look. That wouldn't have worked with the 4.6 dohc..the distribution block on the side of the boost unit would hit the valve cover.
Speaking of tight quarters and no room to work, do you have a way to assemble the Custom truck lock assembly???
Now that's a hijack if I ever saw one...I'm sure glad I don't do that.....If you're asking about how to tighten the inside locknut (which I don't have any more cause I've cleaned off my trunklid), I removed mine with a plumber's basin wrench. Someone else had a different idea for that a few years back, but I can't remember what it was.
I got a bracket made up from 1/8 x 4 stock to mount the proportioning valve. I thought about making a longer bracket that would put the valve under the boost unit, but as it sits, I've got working room to all that stuff under..steering linkage,o2 sensors, exhaust, etc...so I think I'll leave it where it be!
That engine bay is sure getting filled up. I'm looking forward to cleaning things up a bit when I get to the wiring..particularly getting to remove the spark plug wires and coils. Once the fender wells are permanently in, I can also clean up the hose runs a tad.
Question: right now I've got the front brake lines running to a tee on the frame. I was planning on running one line for the front brakes down to that tee. The proportioning valve I got has one front brake line inlet, with two out ports. Wilwood says one of the two out ports can be plugged, which would work with my original planning, but now that I have that option, I'm wondering if it is better to run two lines from the valve separately to each of the front brakes.
I Got the front brake lines all run and connected to the line going to the rears, the prop valve bracket painted and reassembled. I used the NiCopp lines as I had used before.
Next project will be the gas tank, pump, and supply and return lines, filter. When that's done, it will complete all the plumbing for the engine, at least to the firewall. Then I'll get the inner fenders fitted with all the rubber stuff and permantly attached so I can neaten up all the lines and hoses with line clamps.
Also, now that I've got the left inner fender in place for the first time, I'm 95% sure I'll have room for the battery up front (my preference) with some mods and fabrication.
I ordered a cop conversion harness today. He is going to make it over the weekend and ship it out Monday or Tuesday. 150. incl shipping. This is one item I could have waited on, but wanted to get one while they were still available. I also used more footage of the teflon/ss braided hose for the steering lines, so ended up short on the same hose for the fuel line connections to the engine. I got that ordered as well.
The mud from all the rain has finally started to dry up a bit, so I spent the day installing a new window in the house...that's 11 down and one to go!
Surprising how quick the braided hose yardage can sneak up on you. Should have bought the whole spool.
This reminds me...anybody need any rubber lined braided AN hose. I'm having a garage sale.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2014-05-30 18:29
Surprising how quick the braided hose yardage can sneak up on you. Should have bought the whole spool.
At close to 10 bucks a foot, I thought I was being wasteful buying 2 feet more than I was estimating...lol...if I had bought 3 foot extra instead I would have had enough....need
two 3 foot sections I just can't get out of a 5 foot piece.
I have this hose stretcher that I bought at a surplus GA auction. It will stretch about 10% but not 33%.
funny. reminds me of the first time (35ish years ago) someone told me about a metal stretcher. I just laughed, thought he was putting me on.
Well, obviously not a whole lot going on here with the install lately. I did get my fuel pump installed into the tank. Note all the fittings are below the trunk floor mounting surface, so there will be no interference there. I also got the new straps cleaned up. Next to do is cut an access hole in the trunk for the fuel pump, and clean up the old L-bolts (I don't like the bolts they sent with the new straps), and add the short flexible fuel lines....then get 'er put in so I can run the hard fuel lines. The tank has the Ni-tern finish, so I'm just going with that..no paint. LOL, I did paint the new straps even though they are stainless...thought black straps would look better than polished with the finish that's on the tank.
How are you going to actuate your brake light switch? The 57 rod doesn't have a flat on it to cause the switch to work.
James...a while back I installed a gm style electric switch on the brake pedal. It's a tight fit, and I barely got it in there, and there is very little adjustment room. It makes contact right beside the rubber bumper stop. I think it'll work, but I have already installed a back up in case it doesn't..... The Wilwood proportiong valve I installed has a low pressure switch on it. There is a pic of the wildwood valve about 1/2 way up this page. I couldn't find a pic of the gm inside one, but I'll get one if you need.
It got too hot to work on the house yesterday, got to spend some time on the gas tank install. I got the hole cut in the trunk floor and the tank check fit. When I make the cover for it I will make it also cover the sending unit access hole so I've got one cover instead of two. One change I would have made now that I've got hindsight...Had I welded in the recessed box for the fuel pump another 3/8 or so deeper (probably the max allowable), the fuel lines would not have any clearance issues. As it is now, the lines won't clear the hat section/stiffner spot welded across the bottom of the trunk that has the two support strap slots in it. I'm hoping* to get into the area from underneath with a 3/4 steel rod and a big hammer and just dimple some clearance into it.
* LOL..I tore a rotator cuff earlier this year and had bursitis in it as well..holding a steel bar while hitting it with a big hammer while under a car is much easier said than done..man, gettin' old is a bitch.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-06-30 08:33
..man, gettin' old is a bitch.
...and not for whimps.....
quoting me....."One change I would have made now that I've got hindsight...Had I welded in the recessed box for the fuel pump another 3/8 or so deeper (probably the max allowable), the fuel lines would not have any clearance issues. As it is now, the lines won't clear the hat section/stiffner spot welded across the bottom of the trunk that has the two support strap slots in it. I'm hoping* to get into the area from underneath with a 3/4 steel rod and a big hammer and just dimple some clearance into it."
Plan B....The dimpling isn't going to work...I'm going to have to cut out about a 4" section of the rear half of the stiffner for enough fuel line clearance..... I'm posting this because if anyone is adding an in tank fuel pump, I would recommend they put it on the driver's side of the tank rather than the front side. Even if I had gone the max allowabale on the recess box, the fuel lines still wouldn't have cleared the stiffner. The driver's side is the only one that is clear...wished I had thought to check that earlier.
I love it when I wake up in the morning and a better idea jumps into my head...
Plan C: I don't have to cut the stiffner. I had bought a bunch of nylon "bar stock" in various thicknesses from 1/4 to 3/4 at a surplus yard last year to use on my house foundation/rebuilding project....(I didn't want to use wood shims that would rot away). I'm going to use a 1/2" x 2 or so thick bar as a spacer across the back the tank between it and the trunk floor. That may even work better, as it will tilt the tank so the gas is at the pickup end when low on fuel. Now, one more cup of coffee and I'll see if I can get it done!
Got the tank in last week. The 1/2 spacer bar I talked about in the previous post worked out just fine. I rerouted the vent tube so it's more direct and eliminate the long oem vent tube comming thru the side of the trunk drop and across the trunk. I just ran some rubber gas hose along the flange of the tank's midsection from the vent at the fuel pump and up under where the oem vent tube's exit point was above the license plate. 1/4" copper tubing was used for the connections and the short section passing thru the trunk. The pic of the new strap bolts shows the copper tube and the rubber tube not connected yet. Since it was just a vent tube, I didn't worry too much about the type of rubber fuel line I used. The actual fuel line connections to the pump are the special rubber lines that resist all the ethanols and other crap that's in fuel nowadays.
Another change was the tank strap bolts. Since dropping the back of the tank a 1/2", the oem L-brackets were too short, so I drilled the 2 channels those bolts passed thru and used 3/8 x 6 1/2 eye bolts with 3/8 x 1 spacers inside the channels.
I forgot the rubber insulation strips for the tank straps, so I've got to go back and add them. I did put a layer of insulation on the top of the tank.
Edit a few years down the road: The vent tube as routed above created a problem in that it had a low spot in the line after id dropped down from on top of the tank. Gas sloshed up into the tube would settle in the low spot rather than draining back into the tank. I thought I was having a leaky gas cap problem, but as I discovered, it was the vent tube blowing out the fuel caught in the line when the pressure rose high enough. Problem fixed by rerouting the vent line up into, and around the edge of, the trunk. All level or uphill with no low spots for sloshed fuel to get caught.
I got the fuel lines run. I used 3/8 NiCopp lines for the main lines running along the frame. An oem style '95 Mark Viii fuel filter was selected over a billet custom one for ease of availability. I picked up some springlock to AN adapters from pure choice for the fuel filter. The engine side of the fuel lines were done with aerquip teflon,braided ss flex lines, also with springlock to AN6 adapters at the oem fuel rail. The tank end of the lines were connected to the pump with Goodyear instagrip 3-core hoses. The outer core resists abrasion and burning, the center core is braided, and the inner core is resistant to modern fuels. Fittings and hose for the Goodyear stuff costs about 1/4 what the Aerquip stuff does....so I decided that would be fine for underneath the car back at the tank. Clamps are not required for these hoses, but I add them anyway..not installed yet in the pics.
I was hoping the 3/8 NiCopp line would be a little easier to form than it was....I've developed a new respect for the hydraulic/fuel line guys that can plumb a car/engine so pretty and with matching compoments. Mine are not pretty, and tried as I might, the shapes of the two lines are nowhere close to one another. I used a 2" ss muffler clamp mounted on the rear crossmember to hold 2 insulated clamps for the goodyear fuel line. I just hate poking holes into the floorboards for screws...only had to once.
The good news is, that completes the plumbing portion of the install....at least in the engine bay area....exhaust still needs finishing from the H-pipe back, and AC evaporator inside.
well i am not happy with my 6cyl.it is really hard to get on to the freeway and not get almost run over!!!! so i am digging out my 4.6 stuff and will start the swap when the snow flies.thinking of using the 6cyl rad and got the continental water manifold so the top rad hose is on the left side.also picked up all the coil on plug stuff so i think i will do that at the same time.Rich what axle ratio are you going to use? i was thinking 3.25 or 3.56
Great news, Gary....and you'll probably get it finished before I do! LOL. I saw that Continental setup for the coolant flow, and wished I had known about it before I bought my new aluminum radiator, or I probably would have chosen a 6 cyl radiator setup as well. If you do go with an 8 radiator, the Markviii setup can be altered by cutting off the corner with the outlet tube and rewelding it on flipped upwards. I can't remember what side the bottom outlet on the radiator is on on a six, I think I remember it being on the drivers side as well, but I'm not positive. I would think the bottom one would have to be on that side.
On the axel ratio, I've got to do some final rechecking when I get to the point of redoing my rear end setup. I believe the ratio that was recommended for what I wanted was a 3.50 (3.55?). I do want a tracloc and a narrowed rear with discs, as well as new springs, etc....so it's a major cost thing. I've got the stock untouched differential hooked up to the driveshaft so at least it could be driven. The rear is the final thing I'll do to the car.
I've got everything I need for the cop conversion except the actual coils. I heard from the SVT Mustang crowd the oem Ford cop coils are much better than any of the aftermarket stuff, so I'm looking for a used set of coils from a dohc 4.6. I won't do the actual conversion until after I get the '95 coilpack setup up and running. I don't want to alter anything from a known to be good running engine before I get it wired and started. As I mentioned in a previous thread, I did install the cop valve covers, but I've just got the original coilpacks and plug wires plugged in thru them.
Btw, I picked up a steel ps reservoir bracket off a '97 Markviii..it's much smaller than the cast aluminum bracket you'll be left with after removing the coil packs. I think it could even be cut down smaller yet....I'll check after I remove the coil packs.
I just went out and looked at my old 6 cyl radiator, and the bottom outlet is on the passenger side, so you may not be able to use that.
With that in mind, unless your just trying to avoid buying a new radiator, when Auto City Classic came out with their '57 aluminum radiators a few years ago, they were showing pictures of a radiator with both outlets on the left side. I tried to tell them that didn't match up with anything oem, but I don't know if they ever changed anything. Maybe they still have some of those.
i have the oil cooler set up off a 2000 crown vic police car.it moves the lower rad hose from left to the right side of the rad.i have found your posts on this swap full of information and vary interesting.
Thanks Gary. It's gotten quite lengthy and wordy, but after you helped me decide to go with it, and provided me with the bulk of the "big stuff" info, and before you actually were able to complete the swap, I found much of the past info we had here was lacking in the small (time consuming details). I decided at that point to make sure I covered all the details as much as I could, including the inevitable stuff that didn't work. Hopefully I(this thread) can actually help you this time around!
Sounds like you're good to go with the 6 cyl. radiator. There should be plenty of room for the hose, and you won't end up with one of those "water-slide curlyque" hoses I ended up with.
BTW...I now know what Claiborn and his guru spent so much time on!! LOL., and I haven't even begun the wiring.
I haven't been able to actually work on the '57 for a while, but I did make some progress towards the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. This morning I was able to order the Ron Francis efi harness. (#MK-93). They normally stock them, Scott, the owner, told me but business has been so good lately, they haven't been able to keep them on the shelf. He told me a week to 10 days to ship. That's ok, I can't work on it until after October anyways. One thing that has changed from them...they can no longer supply the components to hook up the Mark VIII cooling fan as it operated OEM, so it is no longer a part of the engine harness. The connectors are no longer available, and the special relay modul is no longer available. I had several alternative options, I chose a relay that will turn the fans on anytime the engine is running. I'm not sure I made the correct choice, I'm going to call him back in the morning on that. The fan relay that is on my Ron F. Express chassis harness is only a 50 amp, and the Mark VIII's need a 70 amp relay. The efi harness and fan relay came to 994. including shipping.
I also ordered a Vintage Air GenIV Evaporator unit and ducting. Everything is already complete up to the firewall, and I have the switch and vents already installed inside,so the evaporator unit is the last piece of the puzzle.
I'm hoping to get my custom dash panel machined this week also, but a broken underground water supply pipe may put a hold on that. Still haven't heard from our plumber, probably gonna be a few grand....it's about 80 feet from the meter to where it enters the house. Probably going to have to tear up our new kitchen floor as well.
Rich give serious thought to having that fan(s) run on a temp switch. You already have the trinary switch for the AC (I think, if I remember correctly) so putting a temp sensor in at this point would be easy and make a lot of sense. There really is no need for the fan to run for any reason when you are above 40 MPH. That just puts an extra load on the electrical system and many unneeded miles on the fan.
Sounds good enough for me...thanks for your input, I'll get it changed. You remembered correctly, I did put a trinary switch on the drier in case I needed it.
Rich, I hope you take your usual good pics when installing the Gen IV unit. I have just the heater and I'm curious to see how yours fits (we've found being in a 2-dr in the summer with no air vents, no roll-down rear windows, and header heat getting thru the insulation is a sauna like experience!). AC would be cool.
Hey Lorne...good to hear from you. I've had the GenIV mock up unit in there. Mine is going to be a little different install(what else is new?), so I'm not sure how much it'll help you. At this point, I don't think a normal installation would be a problem other than losing some, or all, of the glove box. Because my windshield wiper motor is inside the cowl, and access to it is under the dash, I'm having to move the evaporator all the way to the dash and right to the kickpanel. I'm anticipating a problem with the defrost ducts as they exit the evaporator on the dash side. I actually don't know where the heater hoses enter and exit, so I don't know if being all the way to the kickpanel is going to create a problem there. I'll know before too long. Once again, my fitment problems are going to be unique to my install. By the way, were sceduled to hit Phoenix again on the 10th of Oct. Are you headed that way again?
I think others here have done the Gen IV install. Pat Fleishman borrowed my mock up unit a year or two ago, and I think mocked up 3 cars with it.
Phoenix depends on money and since I haven't sold my boat or my other 57 any trips this winter might not happen. I'd like to see the Pavillion Sat night show again for the LED lights a lot of guys have, last time we were there after dark I didn't have my camera. The light strips are available here now and I've put the ones I got at Autozone on the front rear and a couple inside. I might end up parting out the 57 custom like Norwell suggested to me, don't know yet - no one wants to fill holes anymore it seems.
Lorne...let me know if things change. BTW, Sat. Oct 11 is also Cruise Central annual show and cruise...makes for a heck of a day with the Pavillion cruise night!
Bill..I got the fan relay changed to a temp controlled setup. Thanks again
Btw, on the EFI harness I ordered, unlike the Ron Francis Express wiring chassis harness that had a number of customer specific alterations they supplied for me, the MK-93 EFI harness is pretty much "everybody gets the same thing"
trying to get all the parts i need in the shop before the snow comes.looking at putting power steering in at the same time i am thinking of using a borgeson set up.rich in one of your pictures i saw,your air filter was in a position to get air blowen at it when the fan comes on,this can cause problems with your mass air flow senser.just something to think about
Thanks for that input. I'm not even sure where the mass airflow sensor is at this point...I suspect it's the sensor that is still plugged in the intake plenum close to the back end.? Hopefully it's not something I unknowingly deleted. This is the kinda stuff hopefully I'll know after doing the wire by wire Ron Francis type EFI install rather than a plug-n-play type harness.
I hadn't done it yet because I need the hood in place, but I planned on making an aluminum or ABS surround to go under/around the air cleaner just leaving the top area open....like the setup you'd see typically on late model mods. I thought they did it to block off warm engine air and for cleanlyness..hadn't thought about it being a problem the air intake getting air blown on it from the fans....I though that would be a plus rather than a problem.
I guess I need a little education on the mass air flow sensor, and what problems could arise if the cooling fans affect it. A friend has a 4.6 sohc in a 56 'Bird, with an air filter setup similar to mine, but I don't know if his has the mass air flow as his computer has been reflashed to eliminate "some" stuff.
Went over and talked to my local builder friend and got a little education. The mass airflow sensor is not what I still have and hoped it was. He is telling me it is something that is going to be needed for the computer...phsically I found out, it is the sensor that is mounted to the cylindical aluminum casting that was in the oem airbox, just before the engine intake plenum...so back to the drawing table to try and figure out how or if I can squeeze that casting/sensor in the "line", or if I have to start all over from scratch. Kim didn't know for sure, but he is taking an educated guess that the computer knows the diameter of the aluminum casting and that is used to calculate the air flow and temp., so I probably need to keep the aluminum casting as well as the sensor to avoid feeding the computer incorrect info. In other words, it would be easier to remove the sensor from the casting and install the sensor in the existing plenum, but that probably won't work accurately
Thanks for bringing it to my attention Gary...better to find out sooner than later.
I got confirmation from Ron Francis that the Mass air flow sensor unit is definetly required. He also confirmed my friends theory that the aluminum housing is to maintain a specific dia to conform to data the computer has. Scott also told me that '96 and newer had different connectors, so If I don't have the one from my donor mark viii, I need to pull one from a '93 to '95.
glad to help.the mass air flow senser and the computer are matched togeather,hope you have the one out of the doner car.93-95 mass air sensers are the same,but need to be from a mark VIII
I'm going to look today, I'm not sure if I kept it. If not there are a few 93-95 Marks at the local salvage yard. I'd feel better knowing I've got a working one if I had the one out of my donor car.
Edit...I don't have the MAF sensor, so I'll have to hit the yards before snow flies....and figure out how to make a housing for it. I can push the existing air filter forward 4" or so, but if I have to, I'll change the shape/size of the filter to something else.
Hmmmm....
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3469908&cc=1430243
Bill, Gary..please check this out. What are your thoughts regarding it's statement.."incorporated into any platform regardless of duct assembly".
Does "incorporated into"posible mean without computer reprograming?
Am I asking for additional problems trying to use this in my existing ducting? This sensor came up with others in the search for 95 mark viii. maf sensors.
Edit...never mind...with a little research, I figured out the description attached to this sensor is not specifically for this sensor, but a statement on Delphi sensors in general.
None available locally in the salvage yards, I'll either order a new one or an ebay used one.
I ordered a new MAF sensor from Rockauto. It comes with the aluminum housing, and is $88. Looking at my friend's sensor for a '96 dohc waiting to be installed in a '36 chev, I noticed the sensor was made in Japan. The Rockauto new sensor was made by Hitachi with a note it was an OE part. The rebuilt Cardone units were the same price. The connector changed in '96, BTW. I am hoping to remove my air cleaner, and fit the aluminum housing where that joint was, then make an adapter plate to mount the air cleaner to the MAF housing. Should be easy if all the diameters are the right size.
I got my Gen IV Evaporator delivered Friday, so when I get a little time, I'll figure what I need for the hoses to hook it up.
when they went to EEC V/obd II thats when the connecter changed.the early marks are EEC IV/obd I.
Speaking of air cleaners, Gary...something you may consider doing before you install the engine is trimming the pinch seam back to the firewall right in the center where it is already smaller. This will give you more room for the intake plenum.
I got my MAF sensor in today from Rockauto. Funny, you can see where they ground off the Ford oval on the sensor housing, and put the Hitachi sticker over it. Guess they weren't lying about it being an OE part. This won't be a major issue to add it. Summit carries Spectre brand air intake systems, and they make both an adapter plate and a rubber collar to adapt the MAF housing to their 4" ducts, and the air filter. I ordered both today, $24 with shipping. The adapter plate will make it the assembly too long by an 1 1/2", so I may not use it unless I can get that much taken out elsewhere, or I buy a shorter air filter. I may just cut the collar off the air filter, and attach the MAF housing directly to the backside of the filter.
tested some of the wiring.found the mark 8 oil presser switch works with the 57 dash light
That's good to know. After I get my gauges and the rest of the car wired, I may go back and put a bank of idiot lights on the console , although mine will probably be the led type.
Rich what are you planning to use for power distribution in your conversion? The 57 has a very basic system and with electric fuel pumps, ac etc all needing power I was curious what you Re planning. I am doing a 302 swap and the selection of fuse boxes etc is almost overwhelming. Thought maybe you have the filed narrowed down!
I went Ron Francis all the way for many reasons. This is going to get quite lengthy, so I'm going to post the reply in the electrical section.
my plan is to use the mark 8 wiring.removing what i do not need
LOL...perfect timing...check the last of my 4 part reply in the electrical tech.
I hope not to hijack your thread here but I have been looking in the local junk yards here in Phoenix for a 4.6 DOHC and I went to a yard that really helped me out when I built a Factory Five Cobra, they supplied every thing for the 5.0 motor and even gave me a Fluid Dyne alum. radiator for Christmas because the one they included in the parts purchase leaked. They said they have a Mark III with 60K that they will do the same thing for (include every thing I need and a after market oil pan for $2500.00 and they will deliver to my house. Is that a good deal it sounds good to me but what does the experts say?
A Mark iii (very rare...a typo?)is not going to get you a 4.6. The first 4.6's came out in '93 with the Mark Viii. I think 2500 is a bit high. Does Arizona allow the public to buy at insurance autions? That's how I found mine. Long story, but the best one I saw on the auction site I was using turned out to be the closest of their 50 some odd sites across the country. I found what I was later able to confirm a one owner 58,ooo mile 95 Mark Viii that had been garaged all it's life. Honestly except for the rear quarter accident damage, there wasn't a ding or scratch on it. Interior was perfect. I paid 1,000 for it at auction, by the time I paid agent fees and the auction house fee, and rented a trailer to tow it home, it cost me 1800 roughly. It even had a set of new Michelins on it. After I pulled the engine, tranny, aluminum driveshaft (it fits the '57 short wheelbase cars with only a rear u-joint change)computer, ignition control module, electric fans, etc., I sold it to a guy who has since become a good friend. The independent rear end clip out of that car is now under his '56 Ford pickup....Michelins and all!
The best year range for a 4.6 dohc Mark VIII is 93-95. 93-95 are the same, everything is interchangeable. '96 has different computer programming and is not compatible with '93-95 as far as at least the computer which leads me to believe there are other things. 97 and 98 Mark VIII's were the last years for the Marks. the engines are coil on plug rather than the earlier coil packs and spark plug wires. The biggest difference with them though is you'll have to deal with an electronic gas pedal linkage, and they also have the PATS system which is a major pita to deal with. Pats=passive anti theft system, you can tell if a car has it by the ignition key having a chip in it. The computers definetly need to be reprogrammed to use these 2 years.
The other option to consider are the later year Mustang dohc. You will have to deal with them the same as the 97-98 Marks, but some of them are supercharged, and some are manual 5 speed.
continued....
I guess 2500 isn't all that bad if they are delivering it....Lots of Marks out there, but a low miles one is hard to find. getting it delivered sure saves two or three hard day's work. If the Mark iii you typed is a typo, let me know. what you will need along with it depends on the year. One part you'll need I didn't mention is the mass airflow sensor.
Oil Pan...aftermarket?? What you need is a front sump oil pan out of a Continental, along with the oil pick up tube. I looked when I was searching for one and couldn't find an aftermarket..Dorman makes them for the Marks, not the Continental. I got mine from a '95 Continental..ebay 45. with the tube. Not sure what other year Continentals will work....as long as it's a Continental with a 4.6 DOHC, it should work. The Continentals are front wheel drive, btw..mostly useless for our purposes. I did pull a set of COP valve covers off a '97.
If the drivetrain you found is 97-98, I'd keep looking, just because of the extra work and expense. Lots of Mark VIII's out there..particularly should be easy to find in your area with all the snowbirds. I think for some reason they also deleted the dual intake runner system in '97...one feature I like.
Canadian Ranchero (Gary) may have a different take than what I said.
Arizona does allow the public to buy. I just saw a 93 Mark Viii coming up for auction on the 16th. It only has 79K miles, but the reason it's at auction is not the usual collision, it's "mechanical", so no telling what's wrong with it, and you wont find out from the aution company. This is definely buyer beware territory. My guess on this on is it won't go for much higher than scrap value, which should be around 300.
www.iaai.com
poke in 1993 Lincoln mark viii in the search block
Bad thing about the public able to bid is bidding would probably be higher than when it's limited to dealers who are looking to salvage cars and make some money.
Rich you are correct it was a typo. I cannot nor do I want a donor car because I'm getting too old to mess with it and I have NO room at my house for another project. I will check and find out what year this "kit" is and I hope it isn't a 93 - 95 that way I can pass it up. If is in the 93 - 95 range I most likely buy it a put it back for a while. They have the Mustang stuff too but they told me all 4.6 cobra motors and trans will be more money and all cobra's were 5 speed manuals and I want a auto. I will call you in a few days to talk 4.6 swap if that is OK.
Call me anytime...(except when the Broncos are playing, lol)My home number is 806 379 6213. I hear better on the land line than the cell that I posted before . With the "kit" they have, you'll need to make sure they know the importance of having components from the correct vintage. If it a '96, make sure the computer is from the same donor car...I think there may be two versions of the computer for '96. This weekend would probably be good so we can talk before you make the deal with the salvage yard. Also remind me when we talk, we need to discuss what your thoughts are for a shifter....that may affect your parts list from the salvage yard.
Kennyoops...Raven..you can verify the info they give you on the vintage. There is a vinyl sticker on the valve cover with a sku code and date of manufacture.
Back to my install...I was able to make room for the MAF sensor. I cut about 5/8 off each end of the 45* elbow, and 5/8 off the end of the plastic air intake plenum. I also cut off about 3/4 from the rubber collar on the K & N filter. The filter adapter I got from Spectre has a different hole pattern than the one on my MAF sensor, so I need to slot one or the other to accept the screws.
There's always something to make the job not as smooth as it could be! Where I want my MAF sensor's connector to be is too close to the coil pack, but the coil pack is coming off eventually anyways.
there is also a build date on the sticker you can see when you open the drivers door.the early marks are easier to swap. rich you are a lot further than i am,still rounding up all the parts.but i do not want to take a driving car apart until the snow flies
The door sticker, yes. And there is a sticker on the hood that references the emmisions system's year. I wasn't sure if Raven would get to see the donor car though, or if the drivetrain had already been pulled. The door sticker also references the gross weight (w/ passengers, luggage, etc.) of the Marks at 4921 lbs..I haven't been able to find a number for the net, or empty weight though.
Gary...what are you doing for the shifting mechanism...are you going to a floor shifter, or going to adapt to the column? A few years back you recommended using the Mark viii's shifter for my application, which I did. I think I'm going to be happy with it. It took some mods to the cable length and the housing to get it in the console that was designed for another shifter, but I finally got it in and working smoothly.
Thanks for all the good information. I have bought from these guys before and we have had a few "misunderstandings" so now we have a good working relationship. They know me and I know them. I will find out tomorrow what year it is and if not 93-95 I will have them look for that year. I have a ton of things to do first so this maybe a while down the road. Even canadian ranchero might even get it done before me. :005: I do appreciate all the help.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-09-14 09:56
The door sticker, yes. And there is a sticker on the hood that references the emmisions system's year. I wasn't sure if Raven would get to see the donor car though, or if the drivetrain had already been pulled. The door sticker also references the gross weight (w/ passengers, luggage, etc.) of the Marks at 4921 lbs..I haven't been able to find a number for the net, or empty weight though.
Gary...what are you doing for the shifting mechanism...are you going to a floor shifter, or going to adapt to the column? A few years back you recommended using the Mark viii's shifter for my application, which I did. I think I'm going to be happy with it. It took some mods to the cable length and the housing to get it in the console that was designed for another shifter, but I finally got it in and working smoothly.
the shiping weight on the base model marks is about 3800lbs.i have a 2001 4r70w that has a totally different shift lever,i think this will hook up to the stock 57 auto coluum.will not know for sure till i get to that part of the swap
Another month+ gone by, and not too much to post. I've got my engine wiring harness now, and I've been working on moving everything electrical in the right direction. As posted on another thread, I've now got my dash panel, finally, so all the gages are in place waiting for the wiring. I decided to relocate the battery to the driver's side engine compartment, rather than the trunk, and I've been working on that for a few days. Battery location of course had to be decided before wiring could progress. Cutting a big hole in the fender well weakened it quite a bit, so I'm building the battery box pretty beefy to compensate. The pics are as far as I got today, the attaching brackets need to be completed, as well as a bottom, and closing off the wheel side of the box to seal off road crap.
If I can convince my wife I'm done with the house until spring (weather is getting nice again), I'll work on getting the A/C evaporator installed, which means the A/C lines will now be a closed loop as well as the coolant lines, and one of the final components for wiring. I've even got my third brake light to install. Once I get all the components in place, I can finish the chasis wiring, then on to the engine harness. Once I focus on the wiring, I want to be able to proceed thru the installation instructions instead of jumping around like I was trying to get the wiring to the back done so I could install the interior.
rich, i put my battery box in the same location, but i turned it 90 degrees for more room on my inner fender.
That's one option I never considered. Have you run your battery cables to the starter yet? I'm going to stick with Ron Francis for the cables, and they have two options...6ft and 20 ft. I'm hoping the 6ft will reach as there is a hundred dollar difference in the set. I also bought an Optima battery with the side posts and top posts as well. I figured it would help keep clutter down with all the components that suggest running right to the battery.
Another thing I was reminded of on another forum was to get a sacrificial annode installed in the radiator.....probably a particularly good idea with our engine/heads being aluminum.
What are you using for a radiator, btw? I seem to recall James mentioning you and he had both bought an aluminum one from auto city classic when they came out.
And another question that came up this morning...... Has anyone that has done the swap, and kept the Ford differential, had any issues with the transmision not shifting properly because the computer is not necessarily getting the correct mph/data from the transmision necessary to control the shift points? Rear tire diameter would also come into play here as well. I'm making the assumption here that it is mph and not engine rpm's that's determining shift points.
i am using the radiator from auto classic. i did as you did and relocated the mounting holes to lower it for hood clearance. i also heard about the diode, and i think i will use it. as for the transmission i am going to use a vss from an older (70-80) car to signal the transmission. . the 6 foot cable will be long enough. i cut mine to length and crimped the eyes on it with a huge crimper that i have. that is a good idea about using a top and side post battery. there sure ar a lot of connections at the positive post, and one more place to connect sure makes it easier.
I knew they were using the pulse generators ( I think what you're calling the vss?) from the cars that had the manual speedo cable output as well as the digital output for the computers. What I'm wondering though is when you change gear ratios or tire dia's from whatever the computer was programmed for will that affect the computer controlled shifting points on the electronic automatic trannys (as with the Markviii 4R70W). This obviously wouldn't be a problem for the manual tranny that some guys are using with the later Mustang drivetrains.
I guess a simplified way of asking the same question...are the shift points on the 4R70W controlled by engine rpm or mph?
I'm not concerned with the speedometer as mine is digital and the pulse generator included with it is the same oem part number that is in the 4R70W, so, for the speedo input, I should just be able to tie in to the generator output wires where they tie into the Ron Francis patch panel for the computer.
Phillip, another question....have you installed the hood on your car by any chance? I know from the original pics James posted for you, it was a ways from being ready for front end sheetmetal, but I'm trying to find someone with an installed classic auto radiator in a car with the hood installed. I'm hoping to get them to put a glob of play-doh on the radiator cap to see how much clearance they have.
sorry for the late reply. my best friend ( my wife), went to moonshine mountain festival and stayed all day long. never have seen so many fords at a car show before. so many 40 fords, and a lot of 57"s too. i don"t know for sure what determines shift points, but the ecm uses input from tps and vss to calculate shifts. as for the hood, no i haven"t tried it yet, but i am hoping to this coming week. i will let you know how much clearance i get from radiator cap.
Sounds like you had a good day. I'm not sure I'll ever get to do car shows with my wife...she has lots of problems with her feet. Hopefully, eventually the docs will figure things out....of course there's always the sit down scooters.
i know what you mean, rich. we saw several scooters yesterday, and i told my wife that we needed those to get around on. lol
Do they make 2 person ones or would I need to add a trailer for the wife? :003:
Yep..I think they call them golf carts though.
An update on the battery box....another thing to cross off my to-do list.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-10-24 20:47
I guess a simplified way of asking the same question...are the shift points on the 4R70W controlled by engine rpm or mph?
Yes on both, any tuner can do that, change the ratio in the program.
I'm not concerned with the speedometer as mine is digital and the pulse generator included with it is the same oem part number that is in the 4R70W, so, for the speedo input, I should just be able to tie in to the generator output wires where they tie into the Ron Francis patch panel for the computer. NO
There is an adaptor that will give you the speedo input you need and then add the sensor to it. It is set up to piggy back them. A good parts guy should be able to get one. I will see if I still have the box (part number) from mine and get back to you.
Just when I thought things could be simple...lol. Welcome back Bill. Have a good trip?
On the shifting points, once I get to actually test drive it, if shifting points become an issue, there is a performance shop here locally that does computer stuff, so that is good to know.
Ok...I know my lack of proper nomenclature confuses the issues at hand sometimes, so lets make sure we're all on the same page as far as the speedometer is concerned.
1....What I have for a speedometer is a digital (TPI-Tech), and included in the kit was what they call a generator. I don't know how I lucked out, because when I bought the gages about 8 years ago, I didn't know for sure what drivetrain I was using. That generator is pic #2, and is a Ford unit with the same part number as what I have in the Mark VIII's 4R70W...see first pic, it's labeled #1. I assumed that output was sent to both the speedometer and the computer.??
2....The Mark VIII also had a digital speedometer
3.... At this point, I don't know if the Ron Francis engine/tranny/computer harness addresses the speedometer at all....I suspect it does, but....
4....I do not know what the vss and tps terms are that Phillip mentioned.
With what I mentioned above, wouldn't the signal required by the tpi speedometer be compatable with the signal as oem from the 4r70w tranny since the "generators" are the same? I guess I was thinking what I have is eccentially that same as what the oem was.
In the first pic, I don't know what #2 is, and I'm assuming #3 is the neutral switch.?
That tranny pic, btw, is actually the tranny from the high mileage Mark viii that I never used.
rich, that generator is what ford calls a vehicle speed sensor (vss). number two is output speed sensor, used by converter to determine shift points. number three is range sensor, for neutral safety, backup lights. all this according to what i found on google.
The range sensor also tells the computer which gear you have selected. Pulses per revolution is the key. Do not know what they are for either the computer or the speedometer. The other item may be "will the transmitter have an output that will drive two input requirements", it is possible that the signal might load down such that they both get intermittent info. The instrument sender may be all you need. Look in the end of it and see if it has a square hole. If it does the out put speed sensor may just slide in and you are in like flint!
Bill, Phillip...thanks for the input. I probably got ahead of my self on this because of my not knowing what the Ron Francis harness addresses. The best thing to do at this point is for me to wait until I get there and see what, if anything, is left to take care of....and how it can be patched into their wiring instead of the old oem wiring I'm looking at now.
Another subject....As I mentioned earlier, I'm planning on using all 4 posts on the Optima battery to help clean up connections. One post/positive feed to the starter, and the other for everything else (ignition, acc.,etc). If I install a battery cut off switch (and electronic bypass for the computer) memory, will a single switch on the "everything else" post be sufficient, or is there a better way to do it?
rich, i think that ono cut off on the everything else terminal should do it . the starter will still have battery power to it, but no ignition to activate it.
Thanks Phillip.....I know your new to the forum, but you've probably figured out this is my first ever build, and I'm not too shy about asking questions pertaining to stuff I don't know enough about...and that makes for a lot of questions.
Rich of the many cars I have built I have never installed a "master" cut out switch. If all is done as it should be, everything will be good. I always go back to the mind set of those engineers at the factory that are paid really big bucks to figure stuff out. None of my late model cars have one...even the 05 Bird which has the battery in the trunk.
For me the extra stuff that serves no real good purpose is just another spot for something to go wrong. The one exception is if the battery is located in an out of the way place where removing the negative post would be difficult then I would use a master cut off. Just remember to have the "keep alive" for the computer wired to the hot side of the cut out switch.
rich, you are doing an excellent job on your build. this site is the place to come to for information on the 57"s. like blue blood, i have never used cut off switches on my cars.
Ha...you guys are reading my mind. I was going to do a post in electrical asking for thoughts on the cut-off switch in general.
put my fenders and hood on today to check for clearance between radiator cap and hood. zero clearance on mine, but hood closed. i gave it a tom drummond adjustment for one eighth to one quarter inch clearance.lol.
Was that the 2x4 and a hammer adjustment? Did you also move your radiator forward in the core support, or trim the lip off the bottom of the core support? I'm thinking mine may not clear the hood with the 1 1/4 or so I moved the radiator forward...I was hoping you were going to report you had more.
rich, i didn"t move my radiator forward. it is in the stock location. all i did was redrill holes to lower it. i think that was pat that did the 2x4 trick that i used also
I moved mine forward...sounds like I'm going to have to move it back...or find a bigger hammer. I also thought about having the radiator modified so the filler neck is coming out the engine side of the top tank rather than the top.
I did trim the weld lip off the core support, so the radiator is actually all the way down touching the head on the core support bolt. I wish they made these radiators a 1/2 inch shorter....but I'm also wondering what's happening with their 6 cylinder version that I would guess was made to move forward...shorter version?
Guys my Ranch Wagon has a 5.0 and 5 speed transmission out of a 1990 + - ford pickup. I runs fine now that I replaced the Eldelbrock carb with a good ole Holley (a proper carb for a ford). I don't like the motor and transmission combo it is just a bit weird - the shifting is odd for a car. Since I already have a 5.0 and a modern trans would a swap to the Lincoln 4.6 32v motor be a easier swap? I do not want the EFI stuff so I want to go with a Carb and a AOD. I know there is going to be some massaging to get the 4.6 and the AOD in but should all the motor and trans mounts be the same? If this is going to be a big under taking I think I will just swap out the transmission to a AOD.
raven rider, to get an idea of this swap, go to the beginning of this thread and see what rich had to do to transplant his 4.6 in. same for me. it would be a lot easier to swap in an aod.
Jerry...my thoughts on what you're thinking about.....First, I may be wrong, but I'm thinking by the time the first 4.6's came out, the aod was no longer being used, so I'm not sure what kind of compatability/mating issues your going to run into there. Second thing is I'm not sure what advantages, if any, a 4.6 with all the "goodies" removed is going to give you over the 5.0 you already have.
I think if I were in your shoes, I'd think about just swapping the 5 spd for the aod, leaving the 5.0 in there.
As far as motor mounts go, I don't think the 5.0 and 4.6's are the same, but the 4.6 is not a problem with the motor mounts...the 4.6 Mustang's are a bolt on, just requiring a slot being cut in the '57's original mounting pads. The issue with the tranny mount is not the mount itself, but making room for the automatic's oil pan...at least that was the case on th 4r70w Markviii tranny. Once again, I'm not sure about aod mounts or oil pan compared to the 4r70w, but I believe the later aode and 4r70w case are pretty much the same.
Rich
the only 4.6 that had a aod was the early 92 crown vic and mercury also the 91-early 92 town cars.they used a block with a 5L bellhousing pattern.they changed the bellhousing pattern when they went to the aode/4r70w in mid 92.all the rest of the 4.6's used this new pattern and will not fit a 5L.as far as i know they do not make a carb intake for the b,dual intake port head that was used till 1999.the aod from the bellhousing to the mount pad is 7/8 shorter than the aode/4r70w.the mount it self is the same,so will fit the aod/aode/4r70w
Gary...I was hoping you were going to see Raven Rider's post..I knew you'd have all of that good info for him! Thanks
Rich
Got a few "other" things done on the car not directly tied in to the 4.6 install...got the Gen IV evaporator installed except for wiring, got the windshield washer system installed complete.
When I pulled the engine from the Mark VIII, I was very careful with all the connectors and wiring on the engine harness. Frankly, I thought the Ron Francis / Televek kit plugged into that harness, but I've just recently discovered that's not the case...the old harness is not used at all. Last night I removed the old harness to get ready for the install of the new one. It sure cleaned thing up a bit, but there were a few connectors that were very difficult to reach, and I think are going to be really tough installing the new ones..namely the large connector that plugs in below the throttle body.Anyone using a same vintage 4.6 as mine with the throlle body all the way back near the firewall might think about plugging in the new wires(if you have them...I didn't) to that connector before installing the engine.
Anyways, as I said...removing the harness cleaned things up a bit. It will get alot cleaner when I remove the coil packs and plug wires for the cop's, but I don't want to do that mod till the engine is running.
Got the first 5 of 20 bags plugged in to the engine and run back to the entry point on the sidewall. I need a large firewall grommet before I cut a hole in the sidewall. I though I had pulled some from the Mark VIII donor car, but can't find them. I'm going to put the patch panel in the console, and the computer up behind the A/C. I'll shield the connection between the two as Bill suggested. My console was originally designed to be left open back there, as a package shelf, but aside from the patch panel, I also need places for A/C floor vents, and radio speakers.
Rich, your efforts, not to mention the car, are incredibly impressive. I would be scared to death of plugging it all in and it not working... I am having a hard enough time getting all my original stuff to work and in comparison it is tinker toys. When do you think the engine will be up and running?
I fully expect to be calling in the help when it's time and it doesn't start!! I've never wired a car before.This engine management harness is almost a no-brainer. One bag at a time, you plug the connector in where they tell you (they even caution you when there is more than one place it can physically plug into).
Every wire is color coded and clearly marked with where it came from and where it's going(terminal number on the patch panel). They recommend plugging in all the wires and running them back to the general area of the patch panel, then going back and tidying up the wires(ties, wrap, etc.), before trimming to length ,attaching terminals and connecting to the panel.
All the hard work is already done with all the connectors already attached.
There's a small group of guys on this forum that could do this 4.6 install without the aid of this Ron Francis harness, but I'm not one of them. Simply put, I would have picked an old school drivetrain (and would have had problems with that electrical) if it weren't for the availability of this. I may have a different opinion down the road a bit, but I don't think so. So far, it's been the easiest part of the whole drivetrain.
Dang...I just got to the bag with the throttle position sensor...the one I mentioned 4 or 5 posts earlier that was gonna be tough to reach. It is. I can't. I did figure any easy remidy though...I hope. I went out and looked at my spare engine, grabbed a socket, removed 4 screws and lifted the throttle body staight up. Only thing attached to it is the throttle cable and a rubber hose. First a nap, then I'll go try it on the engine in the car.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2014-12-09 14:56
First a nap, then
Nap????got mine in :003: :003: :003:
Naps are good.
Removing the throttle body was super easy and gave quick access to that connector. Now all I need is a new throttle body gasket!....1.59 Advanced Auto, will be here in the morning.
Speaking of cheap parts, I got in a Jegs firewall grommet yesterday, 14 bucks. a waste of money..would be ok for a shaft or hose, but way too thin for any wiring protection from abrasion.
I probably just wasn't paying enough attention to what I was ordering. Went out looking this morning and found a 2" heavy rubber grommet for 1.77, and made in the usa to boot. It's heavy walled, but flexible enough I can shape it into an oval for two wire bundles.
Looking good there Rich. How many outlets are you going to have for your A/C? Did I read you have a spare engine? good For You!
total of 4 outlets..two on the dash and one on each side of the console in panels I haven't made yet.
Yep, spare engine. Years ago I bought a high mileage 94 Mark viii. 165K miles. My plans at the time were to have the engine rebuilt until I found out what it costs to rebuild these things. After I bought the low miles 95 Mark viii, I pulled all the usable/sellable parts from the junky one and sent the rest to the scrap yard.
Help!...Got a questions for you guys (Gary/CanadianRanchero?)with a 4.6 dohc already...coolant sensors...
The RF #MK-93 kit I'm installing has a connector that goes on the coolant temp. sensor. There is only one place that will fit, it's a sensor mounted to the right side of the metal u-shaped coolant hose assembly, kinda behind/beside the alternator, so that is done. However, I am trying to figure out how some of the other wiring ties in, and one of the things I'm looking at is a fan relay kit I got from Ron Francis for the MKVIII cooling fans. In that kit is a coolant temperature sensor that they recommend installing into a head's unused port, or if that's not feasible, into the intake manifold.
First question...are there unused, plugged oem ports in either of the heads/water jacket that will fit this sensor? or in the intake manifold? Seems unlikely to me, but that's what they told me to look for.
second question.... If there are not, I have found two other "sensor locations". The second one is also in the u-shaped top coolant pipe, on the left side. For reference, it does not have a connector, but a single threaded stud for one of those push on terminals. The third one is on the heater coolatnt pipe as it exits the engine block in the back. It also has just the single threaded stud. I guess I'm confused as to what these other two sensors actually are, I wouldn't think there would be three temperature sensors. Ron Francis recommends not installing the fan relay's temperature sensor in an external location, but I'm not sure I'll have a choice.
Edit....addressed to Gary because I know he's got a 4.6 to look at.....I went out and looked at my spare engine. On the backside of the right head, above the heater pipe outlet there are two plugs. Is there any way to find out what these plugs "go into"?...the water jacket I'm hoping. I think I've got enough room to get one of those plugs out and install the sensor...if I don't lose too much room with pipe adapters if needed.
Rich.the sensor on the water manifold behind the alternator with the threaded stud is for the dash temperature gauge.the one on the back of the head on the pipe for the heater hose is a sensor to run the factory a/c system.i do not know what gauges you are using,so i do not know if you need the one on the front.the one in the heater pipe on the back may work if the sensor from your kit fits.
Thanks Gary. I'm going to check out those 2 pluged holes on the back of the right head today...if I don't run into a metric problem on those, and if they in fact go to the waterjacket, I'll use one of those. Thanks to your input, I now know what that back sensor is for, I'll have to check out what the Vintage Air needs are, maybe I can use that back one the oem heat/air used for the fan relay. I'm sure I'll need the front one for my aftermarket gages.Thanks
those plugs maybe for pluging the oil gallery.
Right you were! oil gallery, and they were a metric thread anyway, btw. The sensor you mentioned was for the oem heat/air is the correct sae pipe thread I need. Next thing is to see if the Vintage Air needs a sensor/sender if it doesn't I'm good to go.
update....no sensor in VA's instructions...guess I'm good to go.
the rear head temp maybe a little hotter than the front.it will not be a problem,the fan will just come on sooner
That may work out just right then..Ron Francis preferred not to use an external location for the connector because "they usually ran colder than the head itself causing the fan to come on at a higher temp." With that backside being hotter than the front itshould maybe even out, or, as you said not a problem. Thanks Gary.
Got to a wiring bag that says plug connector into "cannister purge solenoid".
Heh? Is this something else I deleted I'm going to need? I tried to find it in the '95 Mark VIII manual but couldn't find a reference to it.
No you don't need it, but....not having the solenoid in the line will throw a code. It does not hurt or effect performance, just leaves that pesky code there.
The canister is the charcoal filled thing that the gas tank vents into. The solenoid applies engine vacuum to the top of it to clean the absorbed gas fumes from the canister upon engine start up.
Thanks for that info, Bill. I guess that's one more thing on my list. I don't want that code there if it means the check engine light will be on all the time....might as well not have it. Sounds like plumbing involved though, not just the physical prescence and the electrical hookup. I wonder if the computer would know it wasn't actually plumbed, seeing as it's a solenoid and not a sensor.
I'll have to chase one down in the salvage yard and see what I'm looking at....it's supose to be front right engine compartment....I found that out on AllData.
I got thru all the easy part of the Telorvek wiring harness, as far as plugging stuff in and running to the firewall entry point. I've got 5 or 6 bags that require stuff beyond that tieing into other systems/areas, and several I'm holding up on until I can talk to Ron Francis to clarify their instructions. I'll be working on those next, one bag at a time.
i have found on obd 1 [EEC IV] leaving the canister purge solenoid unhooked will not turn the check engine light on.the computer will just store a code in its memery.computers from california,may turn the light on.on one swap i did i just pluged the solenoid into the wiring,did not plumb it,no check engine light.remember to plug the hose on the engine
That's great news. I don't remember where it was mounted on the car, what it looked like, or where it was plumbed into the engine...I suspect I must have already plugged that hole, as I don't have any open ports anywhere (I hope). Sounds like I just need to get a solenoid to plug it into, or just leave the wiring off and see what happens.
The computer does not know if the canister gets purged or not....it just wants to know there is a solenoid hooked up.
I sent two MAF sensors to the salvage yards last year also...lol. I'm gonna need a cooling fan connector as well. I found out the connector for those is no longer available (per RF) and the one I kept has the wires cut off too short.
Question on the Mark Viii cooling fan.... Not sure I got correct info yesterday from Ron Francis. He said the cooling fan was a two speed fan. The connector for it has 3 pins, and I would need to figure out which was ground, and which was high and which was low speed. That's the info I don't think is correct.
I know the oem setup received a high voltage input from one source or a lower voltage input from a different source (the vcrm which is no longer being used in their harnesses).
My thoughts are it's not a two speed fan, but a variable speed fan controlled by the voltage. That difference I'm thinking means that there is not a specific low speed pin, it wouldn't matter which pin you used..what would matter is the voltage applied to the pin. In other words, if I'm applying the full 12 volts, I'm gonna get the high speed regardless of which of the two "power in" pins I use.
Am I thinking correctly here?
I used my rechargeable 12 volt drill motor battery to apply power to the different pins, and I could not see any noticable speed difference from one pin to the other.
Update..went to the salvage yard today. All the Mark VIII fans and connectors were removed except a '98..fan was gone but the connector was still there. To my pleasant surprise, the '98 oem connector only used two of the three wires coming out of the fan. Problem solved. Apparently the '98's eliminated the vcrm, or had another way of supplying variable voltage to the fan from a single source. The two wires being used, btw, are the two outer ones.
I looked at three different Marks there, and couldn't find the cannister for the system purge. I don't know what it looks like admittedly, but i couldn't find any cannister or solenoid with the connector configuration matching what I have to plug into it. Ron Francis said not to worry about it, it could just be deleted, confirming what you guys said.
rich, you are right about the fan being a variable voltage.the vcrm modulates the voltage between 6 and 12 volts
Working on getting the wires pulled. I installed a really neat (and really cheap) 2" dia grommet into an oval shape. I got the computer mounting bracket painted and mounted, alot of the engine wires run into the cabin. As Bill suggested, I wrapped the cpu to telorvek harness with aluminum foil, and a bare wire to be grounded both ends. After the final wrap with aluminum tape, I additionally wrapped it with rubber splicing tape.
BTW...Bill, The engine harness wiring has 3 or 4 connectors with the wires shielded from Ron Francis . They use what appeared to be a heavy version of the aluminum foil tape with a plastic wrap over it. Also had a bare wire inside to ground. So, they also do it the way you suggested. Thanks again for the tip.
1st pic is most of the engine harness, second pic is transmision wiring.
Tommorrow I'm going to get all those wires seperated and organized into groups according to where they mount on the panel. I'm not going to bundle, trim and attach any wires until I've got all the wires in the engine compartment tidy'd up.
a couple more.
Since so many engine swaps are originating from EFI donor cars, how are you handling fuel pump safety switch? GM's computer stops the fuel pump seconds after losing crank signal(engine stops turning). I think Ford has an inertia switch that cuts power to the fuel pump in the event of a collision. Any ideas???
I was going to pull the inertia switch out of the donor Mark Viii ...forgot. It left very quickly and unexpectedly after I pulled the engine...several things I would have pulled had it been around long enough for me to think about. I probably will pull one from the salvage yard.
I did put a tip over vent in the gas tank.
I'm finding out how much time it takes to run the wires neatly...so many of them, a waste of time to try and hide them. I think I'm just going to make a cover for the intake when I'm done. that's where most the wires, tubing, hoses, etc. are anyway. Anyways, 2 days now working on the engine compartment wires that feed the Televork panel...almost done with that portion.
I left the two connectors/wiring that go to the coil packs out of the wrapped harnesses for now as they will move from the front of the engine to the back after I do the remainder of the cop conversion.
I finally got back to the wiring on Friday. Last night I completed the hookups to the Telorvek panel that run from the engine and tranny. There's still lots of wiring to do on the panel, but the the next ones all run to different places..gages,back-up lights,ignition switch/power supply,engine diagnostic plug, indicator lights, OD lock-out tranny button,etc.etc.
I'm actually enjoying this very much..very tedious, my back hurts, but very easily followed instructions. LOL..down the road if the starter actually kicks over when I hit the ignition switch, there's going to be a huge smile on my face...even if the engine doesn't start.
The loop of wiring at the bottom kept seperate from the rest of the wiring are the coil pack wires that will be relocated/shortened after I finish the cop conversion.
So my wife asked..."what happened to the hanger on our closet door?"..lol The computer is mounted to the firewall, and the wiring harness has to pass right in front of it. That plastic hanger is a perfect size..just snaps over the computer and supports the harness.
Love these updates. Can't wait till you "fire 'er up".
Rich that smile will stay there for a long time! You'll know things are good when there is no smoke and the fuel pump turns on and then shuts off....:<)
Yeah, that fuel pump mystery is gonna have to be addressed shorly also....I need to procure a tip over switch before I do that. Hope we have a good weather day so I can hit the slavage yard. This Ron Francis wiring kit is kind of a no-brainer....just be methodical and recheck everything 3 times, but I'm very rapidly approaching the point where I need to start figuring out how all these interacting systems tie into each other...I'm probably gonna need alot of help when I get there.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2014-12-18 20:35
Since so many engine swaps are originating from EFI donor cars, how are you handling fuel pump safety switch? GM's computer stops the fuel pump seconds after losing crank signal(engine stops turning). I think Ford has an inertia switch that cuts power to the fuel pump in the event of a collision. Any ideas???
It was in the mid 40's today, wind 20-30, 3 inches of snow and slush, but I trudged thru the salvage yard today and pulled this out of a 95 T-bird. They gave it to me. Ron Francis
has supplies the wiring/connector off the Telorvek panel for the inertia switch/fuel pump. They have the relay socket for the fuel pump built into the panel, so I picked up a relay on the way home. Now I've just gotta get the wires put under the carpet. They are one of two things I forgot when I ran the wires back to the tail end before laying carpet.
I did check the switch, btw. Pretty cool...slap it real hard against your hand and the button pops up.
I use them on everything I build with EFI!
I can see why...cheap, simply, safe.
I managed to get some speaker wires under the carpet in on car using one of the tools that you use to pull wire through conduit for your house.
Ah, I went fishing today too!...A few weeks ago I used a stiffer fiberglass fishing tape to pull the wires up from the tranny behtween the engine and firewall. I have a large plastic split protective sleeve going over the rear wheel well..only a half dozen wires, but I put in a 1" sleeve and taped it every three inches so I could run a flexible fishing tape thru it. That's what I did tonight. I made a bracket and mounted the enertia switch at the edge of the trunk floor. I then was able to fish the wire thru the sleeve, and since it was just one wire, I ran it under the carpet in the door sill area.
My carpet is the glue down variety, btw..it ain't coming up except to replace it when the time comes.
Not too much different to report...wires, wires, wires! I got the inertia switch mounted and the fuel pump wired. I started to install the sending unit that was supplied with my gage kit, and decided it was just too flimsy to last very long. I ordered a new one from Tanks Inc in the 230-30 OHMS range the new fuel gage uses. I am super happy with it...easily adjustable with no cutting and very heavy duty. Very good instructions also. The unit is actually made by classic instruments, but is $9 cheaper thru Tanks Inc.
I got some other wiring done..neutral switch, back-up lights,finished the brake switch(es), all the power feeds and grounds to both the chassis harness panel and the Telorvek panel. I added an additional grounding terminal strip under the dash, wired the engine code reader connector and a check engine light, finalized the ignition switch wiring, and probably some other stuff I forgot. Tommorrow, I'll install the fuel sending unit and hook up the wires I already have there waiting. I'm also going to wire up the OD lockout button on the shifter, and hook up a indicator light to it. I also need to feed some power to the shift position panel lighting on the console. I also want to finish the wires for the windshield washer tommorrow.
Only got the OD lockout switch and indicator light wired today...had some other stuff I had to do.
Back on page 30 of this thread I had asked about the vehicle speed sensor/generator and how to hook it up to the digital speedometer. At that time I elected to wait and see what the Ron Francis/Telorvek kit addressed. Today I found out there is a terminal on the Televork panel for speedometer input. Yeah! That quickly became a non issue as everything else has so far.
I also found out tonight I have wrong wiring for the alternator, and maybe the solenoid. My fault, not Ron Francis'! This part of the engine wiring is actually part of the Express chassis wiring, and back when I ordered the kit 5(?) years ago I had not made a final decision on the engine, so we were guessing on what I would need when they made up the kit. I had totally forgotten that. They sent me one-wire wiring and solenoid wiring for an older style firewall mounted solenoid, as well as wiring for an external voltage regulator. I'll call them Monday and get the right stuff ordered, hopefully it won't take too long. I think at that time I was leaning to a 351.
I called this morning, and they told me the right stuff would be in today's mail. They even told me if I wanted to return the wrong stuff for credit I could...even though it was my fault, and it was I can't remember how many years ago I ordered it...it's been a few.
This is "one step forward and two back" week!!...while I'm waiting for the correct alternator wiring to come in, I finished up the main battery cables. Crimped and soldered, came out pretty nice. I was tightening the nut down and spun the stud in the solenoid. %$#@#*!! Couldn't tighten couldn't loosen. The starter probably isn't coming out without dropping the Rack, especially with the cables still connected. I did manage to drop out the solinoid far enough to get in there with a cut off disc and get the nut cut off. I've got a new solenoid on the way.
So, while I'm waiting for the solenoid, while I'm waiting for the wiring, I figured I'd install the new Tanks Inc gas sending unit....wrong!! Another not paying enough attention thing. The new gas tank is a repro of the original with the locking ring. The new sending unit I've got has a screw down bolt pattern in it, and even if I welded the holes shut, the plate is too thick and too large dia. I looked at the new, but flimsy sending unit that came with my gages, and it too had the 5 hole pattern. I went and found my old oem sending unit and the top plate is still in good shape, so I'm going to use it to mount the Tanks Inc guts onto.
Don't throw your old sending units even if they don't work...you may need the mounting plate some day.
i feel better i am not the only one with the 1 step forward and 2 back week
Got the new starter solenoid in tonight and installed it. This time, realizing the studs are copper, I was a little more careful tighning the nuts. LOL...I'm old, and have lost alot of hand/arm strength over the past few years...I wasn't sure I could overtighten anything.
I also got a "cannister purge solenoid". I'm not running the cannister, but wanted to avoid having the computer throw codes. I've just got the solenoid in an out of the way place behing the wheel well. Does anybody know how these operate, or what signals the solenoid? I don't want this thing in a constant state of opening/closing, so I'm trying to figure out what to do with the tubing inlet/outlet. Should I plug them both, plug neither, run a loop of tubing from one side to the other? Any suggestions?
This cannister purge wiring is the LAST bag of wiring for the engine management harness.
the canister purge solenoid has a little valve that open and closes on the computers demand.just plug both of them,to keep the dirt out of the valve
Got them plugged..thanks for the advise. I got the alternator wiring in from Ron Francis...hopefully will get that installed tommorrow. They supply a 6 gage cable for the alternator/battery feed on this engine. The one they had sent me for the older style alternator was about a 10 gage...quite a difference.
I got most of the wiring done on the dash panel. I used some multi-wire connectors I found at Radio Shack....I think they worked out quite well. This will allow me to pull the panel should the need arise without having to pull alot of wiring. About the last thing to do on the panel is drill a hole for the high beam indicator LED. My turn signal indicators, btw are going to be in the hood scoop, and I mounted the check engine and OD/off lights on the console.
Where do the days go?...I started wiring in the under-dash side of the dash panel connectors. Before I go too far, I'm going to have to replace the 4.6's oem oil and temp. sending units with the ones to match the gauges. I'm hoping I'm not going to run into any fitment problems, but I've got high hopes since the speed generator for the tranny was the correct one. I also talked with Vintage Air about tying in their wiring to the Ron Francis relay/sensor for the cooling fans. That is going to be super simple...the VA guy knew exactly what I had installed for the relay, and told me what to run and to where. That was the last unknown I had to figure out. The fuel pump, speedometer input, and cooling fans were all taken care of with the Ron Francis stuff. Now I've just got to get it all done!
BTW, I can simplify the Vintage Air GenIV wiring a bit because I can/should eliminate the 40 amp circuit breaker they had in line (and in the wrong position for my application) because I'm using those fused distribution boxes..one of the fused strips is a 40 amp. I need to check when I get to it if I can also eliminate the relay they have also in line. I'm not sure offhand if it's for the compressor or the cooling fans.
Spent most of the weekend doing plumbing and appliance repair in the house..but, I did get my dash panel wired up and installed with plug in connectors. I also got the starter/solenoid and the altenator wired up. The two gages in the console are wired and ready to go in..also with connectors. I got the new oil sender installed, so that was the last thing keeping me from putting in oil and figuring out the dip stick oil level marking. I installed a sacraficial annode in the radiator, so after I get the temp sending unit installed, I can get the coolant put in. I'm also using distilled water and a coolant addative to reduce corrosion on the aluminum . I broke the poorly made water temp sending unit trying to install it..got a new one on the way..hope it's the correct ohms range. The TPI-Tech company that made my gages is apparently no longer in business, so I haven't been able to find out what range the gage operates at. I'm hoping they were consistant and used the same 240-33 their fuel gage uses. The new one will be better anyway because the sender core is longer to allow for the needed threaded adapter.
Hopefully today I'll get started on the A/C wiring. I think I'll wait until after the car is running and all the wiring to date chacked out before I get into wiring the radio and 12v power outlets. I'm hoping to find some good grounding straps at the swap meet this weekend.
Got a few questions for you 4.6 guys...there is a sender on the side of the oil pan..low oil level I'm guessing? also there is an electrical connector on the bottom of the power steering pump..any idea what that was for? Neither those or the capacitors on the coil packs are being addressed with the Ron Francis kit. The Vintage Air instructions warn not to delete those capacitors.
Low oil sender.....variable ratio power steering input.
Thanks for the info, Bill. The low oil sender was up pretty high in the pan, that's what got me to thinking maybe it was oil temp. Two things not to worry about....I figured that was the case since RF wasn't addressing them. The deletion of the capacitors may be something I'll need to take care of down the road. Vintage warns of interference with their systen if they've been deleted. I'll look into how to include them when I switch to the coil on plugs.
I believe the capacitors may be there for protection. The coils are fired by relays in the computer, kinda like points, when the signal to "drop" the relay out the field collapses and induces a reverse voltage, or, interference. The capacitors suck up that signal and bleed it off slowly....
I need to research a bit and find out where they installed them on the cop versions. Most of the guys on the SVT forum just deleted them as "unnecessary" when they converted over to the cop's!
i think i read somewhere that the capacitors were put there to control the ignition noise from the plug wires
That would be good since I'm planning on not having spark plug wires.
Another question....I'm getting real antsy to hit the ignition switch to see if at least that much works. I've still got my A/C wiring to hook up, and originally was thinking I didn't want to start the engine until I had refrigerant/oil in the A/C system so I wouldn't be running the compressor dry. My question is, if I don't have the A/C wired/turned on, the compressor/clutch won't kick in anyways, correct? That'll be one step closer to turning the key. I know the fuel pump also isn't suppose to run dry, but I should be able to just pop the button on the inertia switch to cut that off.
I did put oil in this morning. 5 qts brought it to full, which is what I believe the front sump Continental oil capacity is. The really good news is after 3 hours, not a spot of oil on the oil pan where I modified/welded. I wasn't 100% sure the Mark viii dipstick was going to work out with the Continental oil pan. I do have PS fluid in the reservoir, so the PS pump will have fluid to it.
Also, I'm planning on having the rear up on jacks, so I don't have to worry about the brake system. I think all I've got to do is put the new transmision pan gasket and filter on, fill the fluid, and rework the crossmember's e brake bracket while it's out. Run body/frame/engine ground staps and go thru my check list once more. Oh, yeah..install the new temp sender when it comes in and add the coolant. Like I said...one step at a time, if I get to turn that key next week and hear the sweet sound of a starter it'll be music to my ears.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-02-04 14:28
My question is, if I don't have the A/C wired/turned on, the compressor/clutch won't kick in anyways, correct? That is correct
That'll be one step closer to turning the key. I know the fuel pump also isn't suppose to run dry, but I should be able to just pop the button on the inertia switch to cut that off. correct also
and hear the sweet sound of a starter it'll be music to my ears.only thing sweeter is putting it gear the first time on the ground and having it move and stop
some a/c systems turn the compressor on when the system is on defrost.make sure you have oil in the transmission before you start it
This is when I envy guys with lifts...I was out crawling under my car struggling with trying to use the floor jack to hold up the tranny so I can get both the pan off and the crossmember. One or the other wouldn't be bad, but my crossmember has got to come out to get to the last fluid pan bolts anyway. I've actually got one jack under the bellhousing and one under the tailshaft...not much room left for me under there.
I picked up 10 qts of fluid..should be enough if the torque converter didin't drain...
Well that turned out to be a messy job..lol. I did get the pan out and the new filter put in. I elected to reuse the "designed to be reuseable" seal that was on the pan rather than the new one I had bought. The oem one is made much better with rubber and steel, whereas the new one was just a die cut piece of rubber. Less chance of distorting the pan with the steel grommets at each hole on the oem seal. I've got to go pick up a long funnel to get the tranny fluid in. I'm going to try and rework the crossmember e-brake bracket today and get that back in before I leave for the weekend.
I feel your pain with using a floor jack, I'm in the same boat and now it is starting to leak a little, I bought it in the 70's and it has been a work horse all these years. Every year is getting harder and harder crawling under.. I'll be pulling the trans soon to change the tail shaft bushing and not looking forward to it again.. This will be the third trans pull :005:
I did find some info on the tpi-tech water temp gage, sending unit, and apparently I have the wrong one on order...the info I found from a gage repair shop says it's "probably 450-29.6 ohms..the standard for us gages". One thing to look for at the Denver swap meet this weekend.
Today was the day I've been waiting for a long long time!!....No, I still didin't get the engine started, BUT>>>>I did get to hook up the battery cables, and I did get to turn the key. I love the sound of a starter kicking in. Yahooooooo. This may not seem like a big deal for most of you, but for me it was huge having never wired a car before. With the new chassis harness and the 97 Mustang steering column and all the associated stuff like the Mustang ignition switch, I was looking at hearing the starter kick in as passing a huge milestone. I also found out my hazard lights work...lol...I couldn't figure out what the ticking sound was until I walked around the back of the car to have a look at the other side....and my tailights were just doing a perfect flashing cycle. Cool, I guess that's a good indication of the multifunction switch wiring on the steering column, and the wiring/grounding of my tailights. I also know the check engine light works when I turn the key on.
I so happy! Tommorrow I'll fill the coolant (I did get a new temp sensor put in), get some gas and turn on the fuel pump and see what happens.
Almost forgot....I think I do have one problem though, I put the rear end up off the ground on jack stands. I can turn my back wheels by hand, but the driveshaft doesn't turn at all. It's kinda got me confused really, I mean how can the wheels turn without the driveshaft turning. This is not an unknown rear end,btw...it was a driver until I took it apart.
was the car in park?if it was the drive shaft would not turn. but the wheels would,one forward and the other backward[the spider gears are turning]this is only true for non posi diffs
The car was in park, and that was exactly what the back wheels were doing...one forward, one backwards..OK you started my day off good, I guess this is normal. Thanks. It's amazing the simple things I find out I never knew.
I have a 1957 ford fairlane 500 and I'm putting a 1999 mustang cobra motor ( 4.6 doch modular motor) I need help on the pedal set up. My motor is a 5 speed. I was just wondering what was everyone was using. Thank you for the help.
Not sure which pedal your talking about. Mine is an automatic, so no clutchpedal to deal with. If you're talking about the gas pedal, I used the throttle linkage cable and gas pedal from the Mark VIII door car and adapted it to a traditional floor mounted gas pedal. Lots of info on that earlier in this thread.
I'm doing a 5 speed, I was wondering what clutch pedal was being used?
Or you could turn me on someone who put a 5 speed in there 57. Thanks
Well today should be declared a national holiday! after 10 years, I can turn an ignition key and start an engine! YAHOOO!!
The engine kicked right over and most everything appears to be good. My check engine light comes on when I put the key in the on position, as it should, but goes right out when the engine starts, so it's not throwing any engine codes. I was able to check a few things out....my gages seem to be working..obviously couldn't check the speedometer, but the oil pressure went right to 80, the volts are reading about 13.5, the fuel says a bit less than 1/4 (I put in 5 gals.). the tach seems to be where it should be. I couldn't check the water temp because my small garage fills with fumes fast, so I couldn't leave it running to warm up. The O/D switch on the shifter seems to be working, at least the indicator light I installed goes on and off with the button pushing. All of my dash/console lights are working including the Mark Viii gear position indicator.
The car runs a little rough when the idle speed drops, but I'm assuming that's due to the lack of exaust mufflers...no backpressure.
I've got the radiator and the engine filled with coolant, but haven't been able to leave it running long enough to kick open the thermostat...but so far no leaks there. The oil pan and valve covers that were replaced are not leaking. I did have a leak in the fuel supply line, but that was a fitting that needed some more tightening.
The P/S resevoir,pump, and all the lines to the hydroboost appear to be not leaking except for a small leak at one of the banjo fittings on the hydroboost. I'll tighten that tommorrow. I did notice that the lines to the hydroboost and the hydroboost got very hot within a minute or two. Is that normal?
Quote from: r stewart on 2015-02-09 20:19
Or you could turn me on someone who put a 5 speed in there 57. Thanks
The only one I know of that I think has a 5 speed is a member called rlibew. He's not on the forumn too often, I just checked and the last time he logged in was a month ago. I'd send him a personal message and hope he sees it. There are two other members planning on a 4.6 with a 5 speed, but I don't think either of them have actually started the swap yet.
Sounds good. Thank you for all the help. I have one more question I got the 95 lincoln fwd front sump oil pan, What was done with the dip stick, I think read in one of the forms the dip stick was cut was there any measurements where the dip stick was cut at. Thanks
Hope you got the oil pick tube up from the Continental as well...you will need it. I don't know about the dipstick on the Mustang 4.6. If it's the same as the Mark VIII dipstick, you may not have to do anything. The oem Mark viii dipstick only protrudes into the oil pan a short way. On mine I do not believe it was hitting the shallow end of the replacement oil pan. I put in 5 qts that I was told was the capacity of the Continental oil pan, and the oil level shows just below full. Mine is a cable dipstick rather than a stiffer traditional type, but I can't feel any resistance when it goes all the way down. When you pull your old oil pan you could check to see how far below the mounting surface it protrudes, then measure that area on the front sump pan. (I was going to do that and forgot) One of a previous member said he had to shorten his by 1/4" or so.
something to keep in mind,the computer will need to learn what the engine wants to idle nice.the more you run the engine,the better it should idle.
Yes, it takes about 25 start and run cycles (+ or -) for the computer to "learn". Rouph idle is normal at this point. Just be sure to leave the keep alive hooked up or it will have "learn" every time you fire it up.
Thanks Rich for all the help. Yes I got the oil pan, dip stick, and the pick up for 30 bucks at the local yard.
Congratulations Rich. I'll bet if the wife took a picture of your smile it would be to BIG to post.
Good info, Gary and Bill. It'll be a while before the computer goes back to school. I've still got alot of wiring to do on the car, and alot of it is to the power distribution box that feeds the computer.
I almost forgot...one other thing I got to check out was that insane project I got into on the variable speed windshield wipers...it works!! I do have to play with it some though, I could tell the mechanism was binding up at the end the stroke as the wiper blade pivot was being "pushed", and it blew the fuse (just a 10 amp in there now). But I know the variable speed wiper works and that was a big electrical issue for me as I had to get the Mustang electrical diagrams and decipher what I needed to add the wiring to the multi-function switch connector.
I'm going to try and find some flex tubing today so I can run the exhaust out a window. That'll let me check out a few more things if I can let it warm up.
Rich, Congratulations on the engine fire up!!! Not many things have given me a greater sense of accomplishment than firing up an engine. You must be on cloud 9 after all the effort you've put into this endeavour to date. Waiting for the video now!
Sorry, I don't have a video camera. My digital still camera does have a video mode though...now if I could just find the thick owners manual for it.
I did manage to leave it running long enough to check the temp gage, and that appears to be working as it should. It looks like I may have guessed correctly on the new sender for it to replace the one I broke.
I've still got a pesky gas leak in the supply line, hopefully my last tightening took care of it. It stopped leaking, but I won't know for sure til I fire it up again and get that line repressurized.
nice to see you got it running.wish i was at that point with mine.still waiting for engine parts
Tommorrow I've got to check out the routing of my hydroboost/rack/ps pump lines. I did a post on the hamb and the responses I got indicated the system should not get real hot with no steering or brakes usage. One response was that it would get hot if the lines were not hooked up correctly.
Got that leaky fuel line fixed, and also a small leak on the hydroboost. My power windows are working except I've got to rotate one of the switches or switch the leads. My dome light also works, thanks to Bill who helped me out on that way back when. My high beam indicator dash light works also...hope that's an indication of no problems when I wire up the headlights.
Repeat of another thread, but I did get my hydoboost system bled on both the steering and brakes, so I've got both power steering and front brakes. So much stuff to check when your starting an engine on a complete build. I had never done brake lines or the aerquip braided hoses like for the hydraulics, so I'm kinda amazed I have had zero leaks except for a few spots I just had to tighted.
I played with the wipers a bit yesterday, and checked out the windshield washer as well. So cool to have the washer button on the wiper control handle work! I put some masking tape on the wiper pivots to similate the wiper arms. I was kinda giggling like a fool when the intermittents worked, and watching the arms go back and forth in opposite directions knowing a full 360* motor was driving them.
Next I'm going to finish wiring the Vintage Air
Didn't get very far on the A/C wiring. The trinary switch has one wire that feeds the compressor, but my compressor has a 2 wire connector coming out of it. The Ron Francis kit did not address the compressor, kinda strange I think. I'll call Vintage Air in the morning and see if I can get some info as to how to handle the two wires. One is purple, and the other is lt. grey with a white stipe. If one of the two was black, I would have just run it to ground. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd go thru the schematics and try to figure where they went oem.
In the meantime, I moved on to mounting and wiring my horns, and adding a grounding terminal up front. I'll also need that for the lights.
update......honk! honk! whahoo!!
I believe ground was/is provided by the computer. When at full throttle and RPM gets to a certain point the compressor is turned off to prevent damage. You can hook either to the trinary and the other to ground. I would hook the purple to the switch. Rich you still need to look at the prints, this is from memory.
I'll do that in the morning while I'm waiting for the garage to warm up. We've had some nice weather here, but it got cold tonight! After you said that, I realized I know alot of the wires running to/from the engine panel are grounds but not necessarily black.
Bill, you were correct...per Vintage Air...purple to trinary switch, other to ground. Thank you.
update. I think the installation/wiring instructions from Vintage Air leave alot to be desired. They are not very user friendly at all for the do-it-yourselfer. After a few phone calls I was finally able to get the wiring done. I think wiring the engine was less confusing.
This morning I borrowed an A/C vacumn pump system from a friend and I'm running a vacumn check on it as I type. After a 1/2 hour I've got no drop in vacumn, so it looks like I'm good to go on that. With all the different fittings on that system that's a huge relief. I'll give it another 1/2 hour then go get some refrigerant so I can check out my wiring and the complete A/C system.
update #2....had a very good day. I let the vacumn sit for almost an hour and had no drop at all. Yahoo!!! I wasn't looking forward to trying to chase down which of the many fittings was leaking if I had a pressure drop, now I don't have to. I decided not to add refrigerant at this time since my car won't be on the road for at least a year. I'll have it serviced at a local shop here when it's on the road. I was able to check out my A/C wiring though that I just completed yesterday. The trinary (pressure switch) wasn't going to feed power to the compressor because the system isn't charged, therefore no pressure, but I hooked up a test light to the feed wire for the trinary switch and got a light when the engine started up. I'll call that good enough for now..I'm not concerned with the compressor or the wiring in between it and the switch. I also got the rest of my dash lights working....the leds on the window switches and the A/C switch.
rich,you retired guys have a lot more time to work on your projects than us working folks[just giving you a hard time]happy you are nearing the end of your project
Now if I could just spend the time I've got actually working that would be something. Heck, I've got to spend the mornings jawing with the guys about all the work we've got to do, come home, fix lunch, take a nap, then go get as much done as posible before I gotta come back in and fix dinner before the wife gets home. Retired life ain't all that easy.
LOL..that and doing projects on retirement income is why it'll take me at least a year to get it on the road.
I found a pic of the e-brake cable bracket mod that I did. I guess I forgot to take a pic of after it was done, but it got welded up pretty much as you see it. This tipped the cable down just enough that it wasn't pulling the pivoting adjuster bar up into the 2 1/2" exhaust. I can get a pic of it installed.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-02-18 20:58
Retired life ain't all that easy.
Rich you are correct! Seams like I got more done when I was working full time.....I know it is a tough cross to bear but I'm doing the best I can...:<) Your routine sounds suspiciously like mine.
I did get an over-the-stove microwave installed for my neice Friday. Sunday was mounting a tv on a wall mount so we could move furniture in our bedroom. forgot what I was doing...oh yeah, my '57...... I got the radio wired up with the same radio shack connectors I used for the gages. Had the wires on both the back speakers backwards, and even though I was told they still should work, I found out the particular speakers I'm using back there will not work if power doesn't go to +, and the "+" wasn't marked as such. I was getting to the point I thought I had a bad radio. The Kickers I have for the front will work either way.
The Marine radio I installed is really cool...local weather conditions 24-7 at the push of a button. Also has bluetooth, a must for me with my bad hearing, and our local "no cellphone" driving law.
Not to much exciting going on here lately. I've been spending my time getting odds and ends taken care of. I finished up the radio speaker pods for the front and now have 4 speakers..cool. Really make the bluetooth come thru loud and clear. I also got the 12v power sorce wired up..that was the last of the under dash wiring. Mostly I've been trying to get the wiring under the dash cleaned up a bit..Got the passenger side done as far as I can until I need to go back in and redo the coil wiring when I have the money to finish the cop conversion. $ are gonna be tight for a while, so it's a good time to finish up the projects that need mostly time. When I started the wiring I did a pretty good job of keeping everything neat, but somewhere along the way I started getting a little sloppy....or maybe it just seems that way with so many wires, anyway this old body just has a hard time spending long periods of time twisted around to get both arms up under the dash, so the "tidying up" has been a real chore. BUT I will get it done.
Had I to do it over (and I may just do that), one thing I would change....When I bought the Ron Francis chassis kit, I got a drop down panel that allows the panel to be pulled down from up under the dash. The wiring of course requires an additional loop in the all the wires to do that. That's where it get's really difficult to keep really neat. The panel itself is not really hard to access, so there really wasn't any need for the drop down panel. I may just shorten all those wires and eliminate the loop.
Rich I know what you mean about twisting and getting under the dashboard the only way I can do it is by removing the front seat then it is clear sailing no problems at all. Now go back to work on the 57.
Actually back to the 4.6 install stuff. I got the coil packs and plug wires removed, along with the oem brackets for both. The left side large cast aluminum bracket for the coil pack and the PS reservoir was replaced with a much smaller steel bracket off the same 97 Continrntal that I pulled the valve covers from. The cop conversion harness I had got from a guy on a Mustang forum worked great...the engine fired right up and ran the same as before, so no issues there.I'm rerouting the coil wires back to the Televork panel, so I can finally get the remaining wires wrapped and finished up in the engine compartment and under dash areas.
First pic is the "before"
I sure like the way your engine looks but I don't think I would like to go thru so much work to install one. I have decided to put in a 5.0 FI engine with an AODE transmission or maybe a Tremic 6 speed. I know I can put the 5.0 in a lot easier (2-3 days) than I could put in the 4.6. I don't want the car to be down for the whole winter because it is just too fun to drive. It is too hot to perform an engine swap in the summer.
Got the engine bay / wiring cleaned up.
Ok...most of the build stuff lately hasn't been 4.6 installation related, so it's all gone on my build update thread.
I did get some 4.6 related stuff done though, so I'll add that here. I got my differential modified and rebuilt. I added trac-loc, 31 spline axles, new 3.50 gears, had the case narrowed 3/4 per side, and big bearing old style ends put on. I also had the shop change the oem yoke to a tall yoke adding an inch to the height. This got the spline engagement of the Mark VIII driveshaft exactly where it needed to be. So...the Custom wheelbase cars with a taller yoke can use an unmodified aluminum Mark Viii driveshaft.
I have been driving the car around town a bit, but still alot of things to finish, and too early to give a fair report.
Rich, your project really looks first class, Very nice. I love the colors under the hood. I'd love to be standing nearby when some old boy says "was it hard to put that engine in there?" Mark
Thanks, Mark. I'm happy with it...now if I could just get the steering/suspension issues resolved so I can go on to getting other stuff finished up and then see if I can get rid of the engine codes it's throwing so it's not running in a back up mode, etc etc, lol.
Old thread, but wanted to add this info here.
The sizes of the oil pickup tube apparently changed from '94 to '95. The one I was using in my '95 engine that had to be transfered to my replacement '94 engine didn't fit. The tube size O.D.on the '94 was 13/16, and the '95 was 15/16. I resolved this by cutting the mounting flange with a few inches of tubing from both pickup tubes and welding up something that would work. What made this a little easier is the smaller tube fit inside the bigger one with a little 2" disc work.
Care needs to be taken as that flange sits at about a 20* angle from the screen end of the tube.
I also recently discovered that the continental oil pans are now being reproduced. The only problem with that is you're still gonna need the pickup tube from a continental so it doesn't eliminate the ebay or salvage yard search.
I'm guessing the pickup tube search should be limited to the same year as the engine it's going into. I just lucked out aparently my first time around.