My car is just about completely stock, but I would like to add a power boost unit for the drum brakes.
I do know that the left side exhaust manifold is very close to the master cylinder and has caused fit up problems for others.
Has anyone done this? If so, where did you get your boost unit?
This guy description claims his will work. I've sent an email to confirm about clearance on the exhaust manifold, but he has not answered yet.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221290160453?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Has anyone used this unit?
Rich
Did you see this thread? He used a 7" booster after an 8" wouldn't fit. Wonder if he got his from the same vendor?
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=4501.msg30965#msg30965
Thanks for the heads up on this other thread. I would not have looked for it where it was. I responded to that thread too.
I also got a reply to my question about how his fits. He says that he provides two brackets and that one of these will work or he will refund my purchase price.
It sounds fine, but I will wait to see where the other person bought his boost unit.
Rich
My project is almost complete. Boost unit/dual master cylinder is mounted and connected to the brake peddle. All of that went quite well. The bracket fit as advertised and the linkage was a perfect fit.
I have run the new brake lines using the copper nickel lines and that was easier than expected. I doubt that I will ever buy steel lines again.
I have the air out of the master cylinder and still need to bleed the system, but that will have to wait until Monday. We have a very busy schedule this weekend. However after bleeding the master cylinder, I pressed on the brake peddle and I have enough pressure to turn on the brake lights.
Here are a few pictures.
Rich
Rich, your work and your car look darn nice, Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the comments, I appreciate them. When I was a kid, my Dad has a '57 Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop. I always thought that was a cool car and for a long time, I've wanted one. So, about 2-1/2 years ago, I took the leap and bought this one. Since I got it, I've put in about $10k to improve it. Like many of these projects they are never done, but this one is very close.
Rich
Nice job Rich. Sound like you were as pleased with the Nicopp lines as I was. I see a black fitting on one of them, which is what jegs supplies in their length kit....did you end up doing your own flairing, or did you use prefitted lengths?
I used a flaring kit that I have and it worked just fine. The lines were very easy to use. I used a bender for the 90 degree bends, but the rest I just did with my fingers. They are quite easy to bend.
However, the brakes are not working as they should be. It takes more peddle effort to stop the car now than it did before I started.
I followed the instructions on bleeding the master cylinder and then did the whole system. I checked for vacuum leaks and it is tight. I have 17" of vacuum and that's as good as this car can do at this altitude. I've sent an email to the supplier to see what he says.
Even though I can stop the car, it's not safe to drive right now. I'm bummed.
Rich
Hmmm...seems like I've replied to this twice, and can't find it. Any progress on getting the lack of pedal power resolved?
Yes indeed, I am making progress. It turns out that the power boost unit I got was defective. Now that that's been replaced, I have determined that the new master cylinder is also defective. The rear chamber works fine, but the front chamber is not. I just got off of the phone with the supplier. He already send the new boost unit and he is now sending a new master cylinder. It sucks that I've had these problems, but it is just bad luck that I have got two defective parts, both brand new.
If the fault was the other way around, I may not have noticed it as much. But, with only rear brakes working, you can really tell. I've read that the front does anywhere from 70% - 90% of the braking.
I just got off the internet looking at what the master cylinder cost, I have his part number now. It's about $35, plus tax and shipping. It's harder to determine on the boost unit, but it is likely about $135 - $150 as near as I could tell from the site I found. His prices are likely better than that, but for the $199 that I paid, including shipping, it was a fair price. He is not asking for the parts back, so I hope he can get some relief from his supplier. His price also included the special bracket that allowed for raising the master cylinder 1.5". Tom is the guy that I was dealing with.
Rich
Sounds like the guy needs some kuddos for taking care of his customers. Good for him. PITB you had the problems, but at least he's taking care of them. Problems like yours are what I worry about with a build that takes so many years....how many defective parts I'm going to find out about too far down the road to expect a supplier to be still responsible.
I have a similar one from oldirishdave on eBay. 7" "corvette" style booster, etc. I actually needed to lengthen the push rod that goes into the master cylinder to get the pressure to stop. Found 3/8 FINE thread allthread rod at my local Fastenal.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-12-02 11:04
Sounds like the guy needs some kuddos for taking care of his customers. Good for him. PITB you had the problems, but at least he's taking care of them. Problems like yours are what I worry about with a build that takes so many years....how many defective parts I'm going to find out about too far down the road to expect a supplier to be still responsible.
Rich,
Without a doubt, you may have either a new or good reused part fail, but you are far down the road to a very fine vehicle. I look forward to seeing your completed project photos.
If I was smarter, I would have figured out that both parts were defective at the same time, but it is what it is. Our weather is about to make a major change. I should have the new part by the end of the week, but I won't venture out to test it out until the snow melts and it warms up again. I will take the master cylinder apart and see if I can figure out what the problem is with it. It may not be too big a deal.
Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-12-02 11:04
Sounds like the guy needs some kuddos for taking care of his customers. Good for him. PITB you had the problems, but at least he's taking care of them. Problems like yours are what I worry about with a build that takes so many years....how many defective parts I'm going to find out about too far down the road to expect a supplier to be still responsible.
I bought stuff on sale, and set it on the shelf for years, my headliner was for a 59, and Ecklers bought out dearborn while it sat on the shelf. Bought a brake booster from an outfit in Iowa, turns out poor packaging left it damaged, sat on the shelf for 3 years, no help
oddly enough with this thread in mind, the used part I'm most concerned about is the hydro boost assembly I bought a few years ago. How long was it sitting on the car in a salvage yard? Why was the car wrecked to begin with..bad brakes? Are these like radiators, in that using them for years then sitting in storage is much worse than continued use?
Fortunatly, at least I have almost zero worries on the engine, tranny and everything attached. I really lucked out there finding a low miles car at a salvage auction that was driveable, so I actually got to drive it a little before pulling it apart. Add to that I was able to contact the original, and only, owner of the car who verified it was a totally trouble free car since he bought it new in '95.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-12-03 07:35
Why was the car wrecked to begin with..bad brakes? Are these like radiators, in that using them for years then sitting in storage is much worse than continued use?
Rich if I were a betting man my bet would be most cars in the yard are there because of a cranial/anal insertion problem, not a mechanical issue.......if the fluid in the hydro boost was clean and did not smell burned you should be good. Power steering pumps run for years after sitting for years, my 62 Bird sat for 12 years, the fluid in it was perfect, no leaks, no loose seals, the radiator functioned perfectly but I had it checked out prior to putting the car back together just to be sure.
Update on my project.
I received both a defective boost unit and master cylinder. Both have been replaced and both are installed and working. These parts arrived new in the box, but I had no problems getting the supplier to replace these parts.
HOWEVER, even though the brakes appear to be working, they are not stopping the car as well as they should. I've bled the system twice, adjusted the brakes and done everything to make sure that they are working as well as they should.
Prior to starting this process, the original master cylinder did a good job of stopping the car. Now with a new dual master cylinder and power boost unit, I still have to figure out why they are not working as well as the did before.
I spoke to a friend who is an automotive technology instructor at a local community college and he has suggested that I may need a device that holds some pressure in the system.
Anyone have any experience with these units? I understand that they come in different pressure, and he has suggested about 10 psi for this car.
Rich
I think your friend is suggesting a residual valve. The original master cylinder has one. I don't know if the type you have now has one or not. I may be wrong but I don't think that will not help your stopping, it only keeps a small amount of pressure on the line to keep the brake shoes expanded a little so there isn't as much brake peddle travel when you first apply the brakes. Once the brakes are applied the pressure going to the cylinders should be the same if you have one or not.
Jim is correct.. A residual pressure check valve will not help stop the car better. The residual pressure check valve is used for the rear drum brakes only and is used to maintain pressure on the rear drum brakes once the brake pedal is released. This prevents the need to pump up the brake pedal every time the brakes are applied. My Ranchero uses the stop n drop disc brake system with stock drum brakes on the rear with no power brake booster and stops great.
Let me ask a general question here...is a booster that is too small worse than no booster at all, or is it a matter of not adding as much assist as it would if it were larger, but still better than no booster?
First to answer Rich - The power boost unit is working as is the new dual chamber master cylinder. The brakes are properly adjusted and the hydraulic system is bled. I have a good hard peddle. I believe I have sufficient assist from the boost unit and I don't believe that anyone is installing a larger boost unit because of the clearances issues with the exhaust manifold. I don't believe my problem is with the boost unit. As to the master cylinder, It was properly bled before any brake lines were installed. I believe that I have good travel with the rod from the boost unit into the master cylinder. However, this is something that I haven't done an accurate measurement on. I can take the defective master cylinder and measure what would be full travel and I can also measure the amount the boost unit rod moves when the brake peddle is depressed.
Hiball3895 - I will check into the master cylinder that I have and see what the specs are on it. Thanks for the reminder of the term "residual check valve."
BWhitmore - I believe my friend was suggesting this because we are currently unsure if the new master cylinder has a residual check valve.
I'll see what additional information I can find out and let you guys know.
Thanks for the comments,
Rich
Forgive me if this seems elementary but did you check the vacuum at the manifold port?
What is the bore size on your new m/c? Could very well be a leverage problem.
BTW, The stock 57/58 Ford underdash P/B works great and is very rebuildable.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Hiball3985 -Vacuum is 14 inches without going through the vacuum boost pump on top of the fuel pump, 17 inches if I go through the vacuum boost pump. Right now, I'm not using the boost pump. This is all the vacuum you can develop at my altitude of 5,440'.
SkylinerRon - The bore size is 1" and the stroke is 1". That does not seem like much fluid. The original master cylinder is 1.4 inch bore and 1.1 inch stroke. I should have done this before. Calculating the full 1" stroke for the new master cylinder, I am only getting 59% of the fluid out of the new master cylinder compared to the original. This has to be the problem.
As to using a rebuilt original power brake master cylinder, frankly, I did not consider that. I was not aware that they were available until recently. Having the dual master cylinder does appeal to me, but only if I can get it to work properly.
Thanks guys,
Rich
The stock 57 pb mc is 1.125", stock non power is 1.0". I don't know the the stock strokes offhand.
My guess would be the power is shorter stroke as fluid is non compressable so you need the same quanity to activate the shoes and the power assist just applies more force.
Goodluck,
Ron.
The vacuum unit on the top portion of the dual diaphragm fuel pump is only for the windshield wipers to add additional vacuum when the engine is under load and manifold vacuum drops. The master cylinder booster should be connected directly to a vacuum source at the manifold.
Have you tried disconnecting the vacuum line and comparing the pedal pressure required to stop as to when it is hooked up? It sounds like the vacuum unit isn't working properly.
Jim,
I have the power brake boost unit connected directly to the intake manifold through the proper sized line. It is working just fine. Yes, I have tried the brakes with and without the boost unit connected. I'm sure my problem is the volume of fluid displaced by the master cylinder. A 41% reduction in volume means that the slave cylinders are not being pushed out far enough for the shoes to fully contact the drum. I've sent an email to the supplier, but I don't expect to hear back from him until at least Monday.
Ron,
I measured the back end of the opening on the old master cylinder without removing the piston. It was hard to get an accurate measurement. It could well be 1". In that case, my reduction in fluid displacement would be 40% not 59%, still a big reduction.
As best as I can tell, everything is working fine except for this one issue.
Rich
Sorting this out must be frustrating. I would think that a 1" piston in the new master and a 1" piston in the old one would produces the same volume?
Another off the wall suggestion: Have you jacked up the car and tested that both front and rear wheels are getting an application?
The diameter of the piston means that they will produce the same pressure. However, if the new master cylinder does not displace enough fluid for the shoes to come into full contact with the drums, it is like only pressing the brake down part way. It is the stroke that makes the difference. A shorter stroke will displace less volume. If the shoes were in full contact, the pressure developed would be the same because the diameter of the piston is the same. Also, I do know that all wheels cylinders are getting their share of the fluid.
Also, I've misstated the information on the reduction in volume. I made measurements last night without disassembling the original master cylinder. It is indeed a 1" bore and the stroke is 1.28", not the 1.4" previously stated. So I have a 28% reduction, not a 41% reduction. I still believe that this is the problem.
I do not know if my replacement master cylinder has the residual pressure valve. It could still be that having this would keep some fluid in the system under pressure meaning that I would have to displace a little less fluid for the full application of the brakes. Just speculating here.
Rich
Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking but doesn't a dual master have two pistons and each is only supplying volume to two wheels? I'm just thinking I have a dual none power master and the actual stroke when the brakes are fully applied is only about 1/2 - 5/8 inch.
Edit: I think you may be correct about the residual check valve keeping more in the system and that would require less volume. I didn't think of that possibility previously
An easy check for a residual check valve in the master cylinder is to insert a wire (paper clip) into the outlet for the drum brakes. If you feel resistance there is a residual check valve present. If no resistance there is no check valve.
BWhitmore,
I have confirmed that there is no residual check valve.
hiball3985,
In my volume calculation, I am assuming that since the total travel of the brake rod into the dual master cylinder is 1", then the displaced volume of fluid is pi*radius squared * length. Same calculation on the stock master cylinder.
I don't have a clue what the difference would be with the residual check valve, but from what I have heard, there is one on the stock unit. Using the test mentioned, I can push a wire straight through the outlet hole on the dual master cylinder, but not through the same small hole inside of the stock master cylinder.
http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/residual-check-valve.html
http://www.thebrakeman.com/valvetechi
From reading, the residual check valve is to prevent air from being drawn into the brake system through the wheel cylinder seals. I also saw where it takes about 75 psi to overcome the resistance of the brake return springs. So, my assumption is that I likely need these valves, but they may not help with my problem. I found a pair of 10 psi valves on eBay for $24, not a big deal.
Rich
If you install a residual check valve do so for the rear drum brakes only. Installing a residual check valve for the front disc brakes will not allow the brake pads to fully release and the front brakes will drag and probably overheat even when the brake pedal is released.
I don't think a check valve is going to help your issue - it also won't hurt. If you install the valve you need the red -10psi valve. From what you have described it sounds like an issue with brake pedal push rod travel. Jim is also correct that your vacuum source for the power brake booster should be manifold vacuum and not from the fuel pump. Bill
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2013-12-22 17:54
If you install a residual check valve do so for the rear drum brakes only. Installing a residual check valve for the front disc brakes will not allow the brake pads to fully release and the front brakes will drag and probably overheat even when the brake pedal is released.
I don't think a check valve is going to help your issue - it also won't hurt. If you install the valve you need the red -10psi valve. From what you have described it sounds like an issue with brake pedal push rod travel. Jim is also correct that your vacuum source for the power brake booster should be manifold vacuum and not from the fuel pump. Bill
Bill, JFYI he is using the power unit for OEM drum brakes all around, no discs
Jim - I guess I should read more carefully. Thanks.
BWhitmore,
I would agree that the residual check valve won't hurt, but won't help the issue of not stopping properly. As to pedal push rod travel, I checked the full travel with the master cylinder attached to the boost unit and then checked the travel with the master cylinder removed from the boost unit. I get more travel without the master cylinder attached. That tells me that I have bottomed out on the master cylinder. I am getting all the travel that the master cylinder allows. That also means that I am getting all the fluid out of the dual master cylinder possible. Quite frankly, at this point, I can't imagine that the problem is anything except that the new master cylinder is not providing enough fluid to push out the brake shoes into firm contact with the drum so that the car will stop. If the supplier has any other bright ideas to try, I will let you guys know what they are. Otherwise, I see another master cylinder in my future.
Rich
Are your brakes adjusted tight? If they are loose it will take more fluid to activate them.
Just taking a stab, sometimes the simplist things get overlooked.
Goodluck,
Ron.
I know this is getting to be a long thread, but I previously noted that I did adjust the brakes. However, prior to starting this process, the brakes were working well. so the new system should have been working better.
I just got an email from the supplier. I can either return everything for a refund or he has offered to send me a new master cylinder with a 1-1/8" diameter bore. If this unit has the same 1" stroke, then the volume of fluid would be 1.1% less, essentially a match. However, there would be an increase pedal effort of 26.5% because of the larger diameter. This will wipe out some of the gain with the power boost unit.
I can't be the only person on the planet that is doing this. I've tried to look for specifications on master cylinders. Basic information like bore and stroke, but I have yet to find this. Does anyone know of a place to find this? I would rather have a master cylinder that has a 1" bore and about 1-1/4" stroke. That would be perfect.
Rich
I wish all of us could be more help but doing it over the internet rather then hands on is more guessing then anything else. Just my opinion but I don't think the stroke length is the issue. I just went out and looked at my 60 F100, same basic 4 drum brake design as a 57. I had adjusted the brakes recently and it has a good high pedal. The push rod going into the master moves less then a 1/2" with the brakes fully applied. Almost makes me think you still have air in the system. I'm not familiar with the type of master cylinder you are using but I know there are some that can only be power bled. You didn't say how you bled them. I might be worth taking it to a brake shop that can power bleed it if you don't have the equipment..
I was provided with the stuff to bench bleed the system. I am quite sure that there is no air in the system. While I think that there is no air in the system, I now believe that I have a hard pedal because I am bottoming out on the master cylinder. I will bleed the system once more and check the adjustment on the brakes once more.
I certainly understand that no one is going to give me an absolute solution to this issue via the internet, but it is good to have extra brain power working on a problem.
Rich
Rich, can explain how you bled the wheel cylinders. I'm sorry, I'm just a stubborn old man but I still think if your master is bottoming out you are compressing air rather them moving fluid
The kit came with a pair of plastic tubes and a special clamp that held one end the tubes under the fluid level. The other end was a tapered plastic point that went into each of the outlet ports of the master cylinder. I've seen these before, I thought every master cylinder came with them. You pump fluid until there is no longer any air bubbling up in the chamber in the master cylinder. It came with instructions and I followed them.
It is possible that there is air in the system, anything is possible. I bought a vacuum pump device so I could bleed the brakes myself. It works fine on the front slave cylinders, but on the rear, it appears that air is leaking into the slave cylinder around the threads when I loosen the bleed valve screw. So, I started over and bled the system the old fashioned way with an assistant.
It's going to have to warm up a little before I do it again. Next weekend looks like a good opportunity.
Rich
Rich - did your assistant help you bleed the brakes from each wheel cylinder starting at the right rear and moving forward? Your first description describes bench bleeding the master cylinder only.
When you described the car not stopping as well as you thought it should does that mean that you had to pump the pedal or that the car simply dud not stop as quick as you thought it should with the addition of the power brake booster? Power brake boosters really will not help the car stop quicker, they simply provide a vacuum assisted advantage to applying the brakes.
I mis-read your first post and thought you had disc brakes on the front and drums on the rear. If you have drums all around then a residual check valve is needed in both the front and rear brake lines (10 psi - Red).
I have the hydraulic system split. I do the longest line first in each half. There is no agreement as far as I can tell on this method.
I am sure that I am hitting the bottom on the master cylinder. Prior to starting this project, the car stopped well. I wanted to reduce pedal effort and have a split system. I know that the addition of the boost unit will not decrease stopping distance. Pumping the brakes does not improve stopping.
I am 99% sure that there are no residual check valves on the new master cylinder. I will order a pair of 10 psi valves. However, from what I have read, the purpose of these valves is to keep a little pressure on the rubber parts in the slave cylinders so that no air can get back into the system. I also read that it takes about 75 psi to overcome the brake return springs, so these valves can't do much to change the way the car stops. Perhaps without the residual pressure valve, I am getting air back into the system. I may not get anything done until after Christmas now. If I find air in the system again, I will know how it got there.
I appreciate all the comments. I think we have narrowed the problem to just two issues. Air in the system or not enough fluid displacement from the master cylinder.
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-12-23 23:20.... Perhaps without the residual pressure valve, I am getting air back into the system.
Residual pressure valves are not made to prevent air from being drawn into the brake system through the wheel cylinder seals. Air shouldn't be getting in there anyway. If it is then something else is wrong.
All drum brake systems that I know of have residual pressure valves. I don't think you are going to see any improvement until you get the residual pressure valves installed.
Without the residual pressure valves the slave cylinders are pushing their fluid back into the master & you have to fill them back up again each time you press the pedal so it is a good chance that you are bottoming out the master cylinder before you can get sufficient pressure on the drums from the shoes.
It's even in the link you posted.
http://www.thebrakeman.com/valvetechi
QuoteWe may as well start with the residual valve, because it is the first one that should be determined whether or not it is needed. This valve does exactly as its name suggests. It keeps a pre-determined amount of residual pressure in the line after you remove your foot from the brake pedal. This aids in preventing excessive pedal travel as well as insuring consistent height to the pedal.
BTW, in the eBay ad from the link in your first post it says:
"2) a Ford correct drum drum master cylinder with built in residual valves"
But I think you ended up sending that one back.
Okay, you got me on that one, but the first of the two links I posted says the opposite.
Although I did get a second master cylinder, it's exactly the same. He did not what me to return the first one, so I have it on my bench. I took it apart to see if I could determine why it was defective. I could not. All the rubber parts looked fine and this unit does not have a residual pressure check valve. I've ordered a pair.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161167720821?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Good to see you back, Tom...was starting to wonder where you went.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-12-24 08:35
Okay, you got me on that one, but the first of the two links I posted says the opposite.
It doesn't really say the opposite. It is right in the first paragraph. Not letting in air in case of a leak is just a secondary benefit of having the residual check valve, not the main purpose for them. And there should never be any leaks in your brake system anyway.
Had to search for that post again. The link you posted is on page 3 in reply #31.
http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/residual-check-valve.html
Oh, ... I'm not trying to 'get you' but you definitely need those valves. Sucks that you will have to bleed the brakes again. I don't like bleedin' brakes.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2013-12-24 08:47
... Tom...was starting to wonder where you went.
Me too. Got a lot of catching up to do.
Dave at Stop n Drop told me a few years back that most rebuilders of dual master cylinders do not install residual check valves in their master cylinders.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2013-12-24 14:44
Dave at Stop n Drop told me a few years back that most rebuilders of dual master cylinders do not install residual check valves in their master cylinders.
Thank you Bill, that's interesting and I didn't know that but I have never bought a rebuilt. I'm assuming that is because 99% of the cars don't need it or have external proportioning or combination valves?
Dave explained to me that most rebuilders do not install residual check valves because of the mounting position of the master cylinder. If I remember correctly he said that if the m/c is mounted above the centerline of the wheel cylinders a check valve is not needed. A few years back I built a 32 Ford Roadster highboy with the m/c mounted on the frame, disc brakes on front, drums on rear. In that case I needed a 10 psi check valve for the drum brakes. Jim you are also correct that most cars now have a combination valve.
That seems a little strange, considering most of my brake work has been on early Fords and all the fire wall mounted single MC have residual check valves. Maybe a dual MC is different?
Edit: Sorry, I'm thinking drum brakes and that info you provided is probably for a disc set up, apples and oranges..
Merry Xmas Bill
This is a continual problem with conversion kits.
Usually, the MC type provided by the vendor is incorrect for the application (one fits all - maybe). You can test the MC for proper operation by plugging the ports and see if it retains pressure on application. If it does, the problem(s) are downstream.
The residual valves (10#) have to be used on drum brake circuits, period.
The GRANADA (70's) DRUM-DRUM MC is the most reliable retro-fit. But be aware it does not have included residual valves. You have to use free-standing valves.
For what it's worth I read an article about a guy having a similar situation on mid 60's Mustang. The brake tech Gurus told him that a 7" requires a minimum of 18 inches of vacuum a idle. I don't know if the difference between your 17 with the booster and 18 is that significant?
I've been traveling recently and we've had snow covered roads. I have the residual pressure valves installed and I will bleed the rear brakes tomorrow. I've already done the front and did a bit of a test run before I had to leave town. Even with air in the rear part of the system I could tell there was an improvement. For some reason, I can't use my vacuum bleeder on the rear brakes. When I open the bleed valve, the system goes to zero pressure right away. Not so on the front. The only thing that I can figure is that the rear slave cylinders leak air back around the threads when I open the valve. The rear cylinders are replacements, not rebuilt originals like I have on the front. So I will bleed the rear the old fashion way, with the help of my wife. Also, the streets are now dry and I can test the brakes.
As to the vacuum that I have. That's all you can get at this altitude even with the vacuum boost from the fuel pump. However, I am using the larger diameter vacuum hose directly from the intake manifold. I have considered using the higher vacuum that is produced by the unit on top of the fuel pump and installing a vacuum reservoir tank. I am also sure that the new master cylinder (not rebuilt) did not have the residual pressure valves. My gut feel is that this will make a difference, hopefully a big difference.
Kultulz, do you know what the bore and stroke is on the Granada master cylinder is? The original for this car is 1" diameter and 1.28" stroke.
Rich
Rich,
At one time I saw bleeder valves for wheel cylinders that were made more like a one way check valve and only let fluid pass one way, similar to a zerk fitting, possibly they used those on your cylinders, maybe that would be worth investigating.
I don't ever recall other people having power brake problems at that altitude and they had to have lower vacuum also.
Cars definetly had to be tuned for high altitude if you were gonna spend any length of time there. I had a '85(?) plymouth voyager I had to have the engine rebuilt..had a cracked head...the head on mine was a high altitude version, the guy rebuilding the engine looked all over the country for one..finally found a used one in California. The newer cars with computers probably self adjust for altitude changes, but our old ones..definetly are affected, but I don't know how or if it affects vacumn. I wouldn't have thought it would have.
Rich,
I am tuned and jetted for this altitude, 5,440'. Higher altitude = lower atmospheric pressure. That's just the way it is. I've had cars to the top of Mt. Evans, that's 14,260', everything works at that altitude and there certainly ain't much air up there.
So, I've rebleed the brakes and have a very firm pedal. I did a test drive and there is certainly an improvement is braking, but not quite as good as I think it should be. If I give the brakes a quick double pump, then the brakes are very good.
I'm going to pull all the wheels and make sure that everything is working properly.
Rich
I've thrown in the towel.
I verified that nothing was wrong with my brake system. The new boost unit and master cylinder are good. To raise the boost unit so as to clear the exhaust manifold, there is a lever system. That all worked freely. I verified that there was no binding in the movement of any part of the system and still I did not have good braking.
So, this morning, I removed the lever system and boost unit and installed the new dual chamber master cylinder directly to the firewall. It was a perfect fit and the original push rod was just right too. I took the car for a test drive and the brakes work as well as they did before I started this whole mess.
So, I gained a dual master cylinder, but not power brakes.
The weather is starting to warm up and I am going to drive the car for a while. Disk brakes may be in my future, but not this year.
Thanks for putting up with me on this mess,
Rich
Thanks for the update, Rich. Sorry it didn't work out the way you expected...I sure understand throwing in the towel, I've got a whole pile of them in the corner of my garage.
Can anybody with one of these hydroboost setups tell me if the PS fluid/lines/boost unit getting very hot in a short period of time (2-3 minutes) is normal. This afternoon I let the engine run for 5 minutes or so and when I took the cap off the reservoir, the fluid was steaming.
Shoot that bad boy with an infared heat gun (Lowes has them cheap) and relay the temp. Might just be moisture you are seeing?
Power steering systems run very hot to start with. Many have coolers to help keep the temps down....
Never did check the cooler to see if the fluid was getting that far. Good to know they normally run hot. Mine may seem hotter than normal because the tank and the lines are stainless rather than rubber hoses and plastic reservoir.
Just realized I posted this under the wrong thread...sorry
There was probably a reason Ford didn't use a firewall mount booster on Y-Blocks.
I think the location of the exhaust overheats the brake fluid causing it to boil.
Try to locate a 57-58 underdash set-up. They work great and the rebuild kit is available.
Once you get it working you can switch to a Granada (or other) m/c for dual lines.
Goodluck, i know this has been frustrating for you.
Ron.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2013-10-20 21:58
My car is just about completely stock, but I would like to add a power boost unit for the drum brakes.
I do know that the left side exhaust manifold is very close to the master cylinder and has caused fit up problems for others.
Has anyone done this? If so, where did you get your boost unit?
This guy description claims his will work. I've sent an email to confirm about clearance on the exhaust manifold, but he has not answered yet.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221290160453?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Has anyone used this unit?
Rich
Quote from: Tom S on 2013-10-20 22:51
Did you see this thread? He used a 7" booster after an 8" wouldn't fit. Wonder if he got his from the same vendor?
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=4501.msg30965#msg30965
i have a 57 ranchero,used a 7in booster with 15/16 master,still has poor brakes. need a biger booster,but wher to put it.the problem is slightley beter than the1in that came with a kit,my engin is stock so vavume is good.
You need a 1.125" master cyl w/57 brakes to be effective.
Stock manual brakes use a 1". 15/16's" is not applying enough fluid pressure.
Goodluck,
Ron.
This is interesting to me. I have several stock power brake units. I intend to use the existing factory under dash power brake system in my green car with a modern disk brake system. Has anyone attempted this before? If so, what were the results?
One reason I have elected to use the factory system is clearance and appearance under hood. I would love to here from someone that has attempted this before.
All any brake booster does is add force to pedal. The under the dash unit will work. I am planning on using one if I can find all the parts...project 11 on the list!
The booster also allows use of the larger bore m/c that pushs more fluid and/or a shorter stroke
with less effort.
Rebuild kits for the stock unit are available.
Ron.
Thanks Ron,
I have a few of these systems, only enough parts to make two complete. One is in the willow convert. That is the one I intend to do disk brakes with. the other two are one stick setup and one automatic. The automatic will go on the coral E, the stick will get sold or traded. BTW, the brake support for stick is not the same as auto. Not a big deal but it has an extra hole for the clutch return spring.
Also the "Swiftsure" pedal for a stick car is unobtainenum. No repops yet......
Ron.
Here ya go....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-1956-1957-Thunderbird-some-Fords-NOS-Swiftsure-Powerbrake-pedal-B4A-2454a-/252290309833?fits=Year%3A1957%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item3abdac9ec9:g:jBcAAOSwBahVD38S&vxp=mtr#ht_325wt_881
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-1956-1957-Tbird-Ford-w-stick-NOS-Swiftsure-Powerbrake-pedal-B4A-2454-B-/262294688844?fits=Year%3A1957%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item3d11fb544c:g:w6AAAOSw7hRWQAR8&vxp=mtr#ht_230wt_907
LOL...I sure like the $8.00 price hand written on the box. Very nice though.
Wow $275. think it's time for someone to repop!
Ron.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-17 08:59
LOL...I sure like the $8.00 price hand written on the box. Very nice though.
That probably the price he bought it for at the swap meet :003:
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2016-02-17 22:46
Wow $275. think it's time for someone to repop!
Ron.
Page 60, classic auto parts 55.95
Didn't look but that price should be for the Auto pedal. The stick is still not being re-popped. I think I was with Jim when he bought the nos stick pad. that's a LONG time ago, maybe 30 years or so. I will be selling a partially restored stick setup when I get organized here. It has a useable stick pedal, not great. I'll post when I can get to it.
That sounds like a 1985 price. Back them you could find 57 parts at the big fleamarkets easily.
I remember 57 Fairlane trunk emblems at $250 (equal to about $1000. today) until they started being repopped.
Ron.
Yup, the cost of parts is why I'm a hot rodder! Was going to restore my street rod until I found out the parts would total more then they were selling for completed! Guy down the street had a street rod and drove it every day. Simple math turned into a long time obsession that started in 1976.