Has anyone on here used the scarebird adapter kit? There were some negative reviews online for other makes and models but I haven't find anyone that actually used them on a 57. They look like just what I want and I already have the correct wheels for it. .....
I was going to ask the same question. I could not get your link to work, but here, they are selling them on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390677071242?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I don't have the wheels, but have looked for them and can't locate anything in the Denver area salvage yards. If I did not have a fairly new set of 14" whitewalls, I would go ahead and change to 15" wheels. I did find this, but I will need to make sure it will clear the caliper and will accept the stock wheel covers. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wvi-62-461204/overview/
A while back, I bought an adapter to install a power brake booster and dual master cylinder for my car. I currently have the dual master cylinder on the car and it works fine, but I NEVER got the power boost unit to work right. I verified that the boost unit works and the linkage was correct. It was a frustrating experience. I still want to improve my brakes, but I am afraid that if I put in disk brakes, I will need a power boost unit. Is that correct?
On eBay, there is also a kit to install disk brakes on the rear too. It seems pretty complete and is not all that expensive.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201233595055?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Rich
I have mid '70s Torino (I think) spindles and front disc brakes on my Custom. They are 11" rotors and I believe they clear 14 stock style wheels. I am using 15" rims now but my car had 14" Cragars on the front when I bought it. I have a dual master cylinder (probably off the same donor car) and no power brakes. The car stops well, considerably better than the useless drums. Pedal effort is higher than I would like though so I have been considering a hydraulic brake booster. Vacuum boosters should work fine if you have vacuum. I would try to figure out what is wrong with your booster setup. A spindle change may be the way to go, you can use stock Ford parts and it can be inexpensive if you can find spindles.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2014-12-31 17:07
I have mid '70s Torino (I think) spindles and front disc brakes on my Custom. They are 11" rotors and I believe they clear 14 stock style wheels. I am using 15" rims now but my car had 14" Cragars on the front when I bought it. I have a dual master cylinder (probably off the same donor car) and no power brakes. The car stops well, considerably better than the useless drums. Pedal effort is higher than I would like though so I have been considering a hydraulic brake booster. Vacuum boosters should work fine if you have vacuum. I would try to figure out what is wrong with your booster setup. A spindle change may be the way to go, you can use stock Ford parts and it can be inexpensive if you can find spindles.
Not really cheap as you think. The donor car I used was a 69 Torino and the only thing I reused were the spindles and dust shields. Everything else is new, calipers, rotors, brake pads and brake hoses. I'm into the whole swap for about $300 and that doesn't include the ball joint reamer. Also forgot new wheel bearings to.
I agree. I just replaced everything on mine around...$300. I was thinking if you can come across splindles you might get discs and calipers that can be reused. You still must buy all the stuff if you get a kit and the kit cost plays a part in the whole cost.
I actually have been a little concerned about suspension geometry on my car because I have had conflicting info on whether the Torino spindles lower the car and alter bumpsteer. My car had 'em so I used 'em. I tried to compare what I have with pictures and concluded I wouldn't worry about for now. It took a while for me to find the correct hub/disc, Ford has a million variations. I bought parts for a '74 Gran Torino after talking to the guy at Drop'Em & Stop. He had heard those spindles mess up the geometry but then again he is selling spindles. The spindles I have don't seem to have lowered the car though so I think they are close to correct. The calipers and rotors I have are very heavy to no advantage and I don't like the way the calipers center themselves, but it is nice having Ford stuff on the car.
That's part of the reason I stayed away from the 72 and up Torino stuff, the spindles and all the hardware got really heavy compared to the earlier ones.
68-73 Mustang, 68-71 Torino basically use the same spindle and hardware and they have the same ride height as the 57 spindles.
One of the reasons that I was drawn to the scarebird brackets was that the spindles do not require replacement. Their price seems a little high for those brackets, but they do save replacing some parts. I have already done a complete rebuild on the front end, new bushings on the upper and lower control arms, new ball joints, new tie rod ends and new wheel bearings.
I contacted scarebird and they indicate that the Mustang rotors will fit the original spindles. If so, that's another plus.
To the best of my knowledge, and that only comes from reading on this forum, the original wheels will not work with disk brakes. If they would work with some caliper/disk combination, that would be great. Has anyone used stock wheels on a disk brake setup?
The power boost unit for the '57 Fairlane sits about 1.5" higher than stock in order for the boost unit to gain clearance on the exhaust manifold. To accomplish this, they furnish a lever arrangement that transfers the lateral force upward. This lever arrangement causes a doubling of the peddle effort to produce the same force on the master cylinder. The power boost unit should more than overcome that added effort, but my experience was that it did not.
As to vacuum for the power boost unit, I have sufficient vacuum through the vacuum booster on top of the fuel pump. However, living at about 5,800', that does reduce what is available. That being said, power brakes do work at this altitude and even higher.
Bottom line for me is that, yes, my stock brakes work. Likely almost as well as they did from the factory. However, there is no comparison to a car with disk brakes. I would like to upgrade this system.
I also want to install power steering at some point and that does not seem to be a big deal either. The only unresolved issue for me is what to do for the horn as the wire down the center of the steering column will have to be cut off. I've thought about crossdrilling a small hole through the shaft and bringing out the horn wire above the cutoff point and installing an isolated copper or brass collar which could then be used as a rotating contact for the horn. Seems like a lot of work, but then the horn ring would still work.
Rich
Rich, I have a stock spare tire/wheel with a 7.50 X 14 tire no less. I will try it on my discs and see if it fits. (I really probably need to know)! :003: It will be in the next day or so. Also look at the "More horn wiring information" thread in the "General Discussion Section" Dec 16 this year. plus there is a lot more on horn wiring on this forum.
Rich, No go on the stock rim on my setup. The reason is not what I expected.. though the hole in the center of the stock wheel is 2 5/8", the hub requires 2 3/4" minimum. I am running 15 X 7 Vintique steel oem style wheels/ dog dish caps. That hole is 3 1/16".
That said I don't believe a stock 14" wheel will fit even if the center hole is bored larger. My rotors are 10 3/4 in diameter, the calipers are beveled on the outside edge. Even these brakes require AT LEAST 12 3/4" inside diameter at around 1'' from the mounting face of the wheel. (I made a template).
Thanks for taking the time to do a test fit. I am wondering if other brake options use a smaller diameter disk. Other's on the forum say that the 75-80 Granada 14" wheels will work on a disk brake system.
What about it guys? Would someone with a disk brake system and 14" wheels chime in with the specifics of your installation.
Thanks,
Rich
When I saw Bill Whitmore's Ranchero he had Granada discs and I believe he used the Granada 14" wheels. I think some people have turned down the hub OD to get the 57 rims to fit.
Rich, have you tried hooking the vacuum supply directly to the manifold? The vacuum through the fuel pump which is for the windshield wipers doesn't seem like it would supply enough volume to me, just a thought..
I have the Granada discs, non power, and it stops like a charm..
Jim - you are correct, Granda rotors, GM Cavalier calipers, and 14" Granada wheels.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-01-03 09:52
Jim - you are correct, Granda rotors, GM Cavalier calipers, and 14" Granada wheels.
Good to see you Bill, Happy New Year......
I have Granada 14" wheels and they clear multiple disc setups that I've tried them on. I used to have granada discs and I liked the stopping but HATED the ride drop. I like the way the car sits stock so I liked the scarebird concept, but I'd like to hear from someone that used it to be sure about the quality of the adapter brackets.
Quote from: jseth83 on 2015-01-03 12:19
I have Granada 14" wheels and they clear multiple disc setups that I've tried them on. I used to have granada discs and I liked the stopping but HATED the ride drop. I like the way the car sits stock so I liked the scarebird concept, but I'd like to hear from someone that used it to be sure about the quality of the adapter brackets.
Agreed, I'm constantly hitting my sway bar on driveway entrances and dips crossing gutters.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-01-03 09:19
Rich, have you tried hooking the vacuum supply directly to the manifold? The vacuum through the fuel pump which is for the windshield wipers doesn't seem like it would supply enough volume to me, just a thought..
I have the Granada discs, non power, and it stops like a charm..
To answer your question, yes, I did try the boost unit both ways. I gain about 4" of vacuum when I measure it off of the fuel pump. There may be less volume off of the fuel pump, but for at least the first hit on the brakes, you would have the full volume. I did splice in a tee to measure the vacuum while applying the brakes and there is a brief reduction of vacuum but it recovers quickly.
If I can find the right combination of parts, it should make a big difference in stopping power.
My inclination is to get the scarebird brackets - that will allow me to keep all the original suspension components. Then add the Granada disks (if I can find bearings that will mount it on the stock spindle) and wheels. Not sure what caliper I will use, it would have to fit the scarebird brackets. I've called just about every salvage yard in the Denver area and cannot come with Granada wheels. I did find a website selling steel wheels that are supposed to fit the Granada, but I would want to confirm that I could still mount the stock wheel covers. (link was included in previous post.)
It's getting to be a pricy project.
Those Granada wheels must be a highly collectable item :003: I gave up trying to find just one for a spare.....
Have been able to lock up both front and rear brakes even with the higher pedal pressure?
I went to the Rockauto website where they give some detail information on bearing sizes. I was able to confirm that the 57 Fairlane and the 69 Mustang both use the same bore sizes for inner (1.25") and outer (.75") wheel bearing.
That jives with what the guy told me at scarebird. So, parts are not a problem. For me, I would like to find some used wheels, but if not, I guess I can buy new one's. Check my attachment for the project budget.
Rich
Thanks Rich. Where did you get the prices for the Mustang rotors? I was thinking the cost was about 3x that....
All of the prices were from the Rockauto site. You can spend more, but my car is not a hotrod, OEM quality will be fine for me.
Rich
I wouldn't skimp on wheel bearings. I've heard not so good results from the Chinese junk around these days, get the Timkens.
Also if you use 1970-73 Mustang or 1970-71 Torino they use a different wheel bearing than the 69. The spindle pin is a little
thicker on the later ones. The rotor races, o.d. are the same just the i.d. changes.
Randy
Thanks a bunch Rich! Those prices are a lot better than the first quote I had locally. I'm probably going to use them for several things in the future.
Quote from: rmk57 on 2015-01-03 19:39
I wouldn't skimp on wheel bearings. I've heard not so good results from the Chinese junk around these days, get the Timkens.
Also if you use 1970-73 Mustang or 1970-71 Torino they use a different wheel bearing than the 69. The spindle pin is a little
thicker on the later ones. The rotor races, o.d. are the same just the i.d. changes.
Randy
Recently a friend informed me that the last Timken bearings he bought were made in China and he was pissed...
The bearing I.D. is what's important if you are going to use the scarebird bracket. Then you will be using the stock spindle and you will need to match things up. Since the 68-69 Mustang rotor wheel bearings are the same I.D and same 5 bolt pattern, it seems a natural for this project. I just wish I could find good used Granada wheels for a decent price.
I bought front wheel and rear axel bearings from Rockauto last year and they were all U.S. made, just lucky I guess. However, I would hope that Timkin would be producing bearings to the same specifications regardless of where they were manufactured.
I've bought stuff from Rockauto for years. Last year, they sent me an email and asked for a picture of my car. They sent back a pile of business card size magnets with the picture of my car on it and their logo. Knowing that I would give most of them to my friends, which I did. If they have what you want, it's probably at a decent price.
Rich
Hopefully the bearings are made to the same standard. For me it's just a sign of more US jobs being lost to cheap labor. Sorry I'll put my political soapbox away :003:
I use Rockauto alot...sometimes pricing is 1/2 for the same brand. Earlier this year I got 2 Bosche O2 sensors for the 4.6, got them delivered for less that 1/2 what Auto Zone and the other locals wanted for the same brand/same pn.
Rich..I have those magnets all over my refrigerator...unfortunatly I don't have yours. BTW, I may be up in Denver for the swap meet next month...we'll see how the weather is.
Rich,
I assume you are talking about the Tristate swap meet. http://www.tristateswapmeet.com/ Maybe we can hook up if it works out for us. I have at least two magnets left over, you can have one for sure. I've never been to the Tristate swap meet. I've never found anything of significance for one of my projects at a swap meet. I usually get my parts online, either from one of the major suppliers or eBay. There is also a guy in Denver, near where the swap meet is held that has a business dealing with NOS and used parts. Sam's Vintage Ford Parts. http://samsvintagefordparts.com/page1.php He is running a store that his dad started and he does have quite a bit of stuff. He helped me out several times.
Right now, the weather is a little less than perfect. This morning my wife and I went out for breakfast and it was +5 with partly cloudy skies. We had about 2" of snow overnight. However, we are on a trend back to average temps. That should help. Also, the roads are clear and dry. The road crews are on top of things for now.
This looks like a sweet deal if it clears 14" wheels like it says it does. I like the four piston caliper for the price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Marauder-Cyclone-Ford-Galaxie-Ranchero-Wilwood-Front-Dynalite-Brake-Kit-/131365382060?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1957%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item1e95fca7ac&vxp=mtr
This looks like a nice kit. The text says "Intended vehicle applications require no modifications for installation, and clear most 14" OEM wheels." I just sent them an email asking if they can confirm that it will fit over the '57 Fairlane wheels. I'll let you know what I hear.
I looked for an off eBay website, but could not find one. For the scarebird kit, they sell it direct for $30 less than they do on eBay.
I just found their off eBay website. Text is the same, price is higher. http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitListFront.aspx?mincatdesc=Classic%20Series%20Front%20Dynalite%20Brake%20Kit
Rich
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-01-04 11:06
Hopefully the bearings are made to the same standard. For me it's just a sign of more US jobs being lost to cheap labor. Sorry I'll put my political soapbox away :003:
It's a good soap box. I too feel that way. A year or two ago, someone sent me an email listing all the things still being made in the US. It was an impressive list. Your consumer electronics, clothes and lots of other lower tech items are gone mostly forever. They also went on to say that things will change and some jobs will come back for various reasons. They gave an example of Jap cars. Many of their nameplates are US made now. (For all I know, you can buy a US made Jap car in Japan.) Granted some parts come from outside of the US, but the same applies to the traditional US brands too.
I try to keep my politics out of discussions with strangers and many friends, but like most of you, it's not all that hard to raise my blood pressure on various issues.
Nuff said!
Rich
The (4) piston calipers are a vast improvement over a single piston floating caliper. With opposing pistons you rigidly mount the caliper. The more pistons the more evenly you apply the pressure to the rotor and the better the braking.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-01-04 13:35
This looks like a sweet deal if it clears 14" wheels like it says it does. I like the four piston caliper for the price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Marauder-Cyclone-Ford-Galaxie-Ranchero-Wilwood-Front-Dynalite-Brake-Kit-/131365382060?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1957%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item1e95fca7ac&vxp=mtr
I found a drawing on the Wilwood site that shows what I think is the correct caliper. In the eBay page then note that the caliper is a FDL-M, on the Wilwood site, they don't use that designation, but the closest I can find is a "Forged Dynalite -M". That sounds like a FDL-M to me.
In the notes, the eBay site says that they are using a 11.3" caliper, this drawing shows 11.44" as the closest size and this gives a diameter for the wheel to clear as 13.2" (6.6" Radius). That seems pretty close to me. Tomorrow, I'll get the spare out an do some measuring.
Rich
Rich,
The dimension that you need now is the distance from the rim mounting face to the center line of the disc on the rim/hub disc combination. If that made any sense. I have been looking for Granada rims online just for grins....where did you find them?
Lynn,
Go back and look at the first post on this thread. I found Summit Racing selling a steel wheel purported to fit a Granada.
Yes, I do know I need more dimensional information to make a determination on the fit up of the stock wheel. I want to make some measurements just to see what the profile of the wheel looks like.
If the parts supplier cannot say for sure that this kit will fit using the stock wheels, I'm just bold enough to ask them to ship me a bracket, rotor and caliper to do a test fit. Who knows, they might do it.
Rich
I looked at that post twice and missed it. I have those exact wheels but in 15 X 7. Vintiques may use the same center for 14 or 15 wheels, I would almost bet on it. The outside part of the wheel is rolled but the inside is stamped. It would make sense to use the same stamped center for both. Let us know what you find out on the Wilwood stuff.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2015-01-04 15:02
It's a good soap box. I too feel that way. A year or two ago, someone sent me an email listing all the things still being made in the US. It was an impressive list. Your consumer electronics, clothes and lots of other lower tech items are gone mostly forever. They also went on to say that things will change and some jobs will come back for various reasons. They gave an example of Jap cars. Many of their nameplates are US made now. (For all I know, you can buy a US made Jap car in Japan.) Granted some parts come from outside of the US, but the same applies to the traditional US brands too.
I try to keep my politics out of discussions with strangers and many friends, but like most of you, it's not all that hard to raise my blood pressure on various issues.
Nuff said!
Rich
Ford has been building cars in Japan for quite some time and I heard that they would like to import them to the US. Great! US cars made in Japan, Japan cars made in the US.....
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-01-04 15:18
The (4) piston calipers are a vast improvement over a single piston floating caliper. With opposing pistons you rigidly mount the caliper. The more pistons the more evenly you apply the pressure to the rotor and the better the braking.
The only experience I have with 4 piston is on my 66 Mustang and they suck compared to the Granada ones on the 57. The difference being the amount of pedal pressure needed for the 4 piston..
Jim,
Good information. I'll ask if the double piston requires more pressure to activate it properly.
I just ran across a couple of pictures that show how the pressure boost unit I bought works. You can see the lever attachment that raises the center line to get the boost unit away from the exhaust manifold. The bottom pin is the pivot point, the middle pin is where the pressure is applied by the stock peddle and the upper pin applies pressure to the boost unit/master cylinder. If you remember your high school physics, it's easy to see that this arrangement doubles the force required on the peddle to give the same amount of force at the master cylinder without the lever arrangement.
What is the vacuum diaphragm diameter? There is an obvious clearance issue under the hood so my thought is the arrangement is for clearance without regard to function. I have been told by a supplier that a 7" double diaphragm booster is as big as one can fit under the hood properly.
I would also expect that multiple caliper pistons may require more volume (matching master cylinder) adjustments...but hydraulic pressure is hydraulic pressure. Modern high performance systems are moving to more pistons not fewer... this is getting to be a very interesting dialog. :003:
I've used the Wilwood dynlalite 4 piston calipers on my '57 in multiple configuration. All my configurations have been without power booster.
My first Disc brake setup was the Granada swap. It stopped well, but i didn't use it for long. 1) I didn't like the look of tires on Granada wheels. The car just looked wrong. The tires looked like balloons, instead of that tall bias-ply look of my original wheels. 2) the Granada master cylinder refused to stay rust free. 3) The braking power seemed a little spongy and no matter how much bleeding of the lines, it was always a little 'off'
Next I figured that is I was no longer on 14 inch originals, I might as well change things up. I made my own brackets and adopted a set of Wilwood Dynalite 4-pistons polished calipers. Wilwood has a 'Granada' hub and i used it and their 11 inch rotors. (I think -- I may have used a 'Hat' kit to mount over the original Granada hub) I also upgraded to Wilwood's non-branded master cylinder. This MC, I was shocked to find out, was actually a Mopar branded item. It was a 1 inch bore and did the job great. This setup not only looked good, but it stopped on demand. The sponginess was gone. I moved to 17 inch wheels. While I had Wilwood adoption fever, I also purchased their 9 inch rear end kits with 4 calipers. Each side has a polished Dynalite and a second small mechanical spot caliper for parking brake. This setup rocked.
Finally, I got tired of the lowered looked, but loved the 17 inch wheels... So naturally I went back to the original spindle. Again, I adopted a wilwood product, but now to the original spindle. This time and my current setup is a 6 piston caliper and 13 inch rotors. This was a kit intended for 'road race' 2000 Mustang, or the C4 corvette. I don't recall the specifics. Needless to say, I spend money galore on all of this. (Yes, I was not married at the time -- only to my car).
I looked at the ebay auction for the wilwood setup that 'fits' our '57s. The brackets seems wrong. I'd have to double check our spindle. It may be that the rotors are so much smaller that what I am using, though.
If this kit works for our cars, and I did not already have what I have, and knowing what I know about wilwood. I would go with it in a heart beat.
I have pictures around here. I may have posted some to our member's rides section.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2015-01-04 21:43
Jim,
Good information. I'll ask if the double piston requires more pressure to activate it properly.
I just ran across a couple of pictures that show how the pressure boost unit I bought works. You can see the lever attachment that raises the center line to get the boost unit away from the exhaust manifold. The bottom pin is the pivot point, the middle pin is where the pressure is applied by the stock peddle and the upper pin applies pressure to the boost unit/master cylinder. If you remember your high school physics, it's easy to see that this arrangement doubles the force required on the peddle to give the same amount of force at the master cylinder without the lever arrangement.
Just as a note, the 66 Mustang and the Granada I'm comparing are both non power.
I have no experience with the newer model 4 piston systems. Also I seem to recall guys that have used a similar set up as yours on early trucks had to relocate the hole in the brake pedal to regain the leverage needed. I think they moved the hole 1" down??? I couldn't find the old post about it.
Jim,
The lever arrangement places the connection to the brake pedal in direct line and in the original position. Moving the mounting hole down (away from the pivot point) will also decrease the mechanical advantage resulting in even greater effort to achieve the same force at the master cylinder.
I could never figure out why my system did not work. I kept the new master cylinder and am using that now. It has the same bore size as the stock cylinder. I have no improvement in braking, but I like having the dual master cylinder. My experience in driving cars of this vintage is very limited so I am not sure that I have an unusually high pedal effort, it's just higher that I would like and adding disk brakes should decrease stopping distance. I also had a 1937 Chevy with hydraulic brakes. That car was easier to stop than this car is. However, I can hit the brakes hard and lock up the wheels. But that takes both feet and a very hard push.
Has anyone else got a system like the one I bought, and got it working properly?
By the way, the diameter of the boost unit is 7", I believe that's about as small as they get.
Rich
Rich,
They may have move it up an inch, I just don't recall exactly and the truck pedal and rod may be totally different then the 57, it was just a thought.
I've driven a ton of old 50-60 cars back in those days and the difference between power and non power drum brakes was like day and night. I personally like non power and don't like the sensitivity of the power units. There is something definitely wrong in yours I would say.
Hiball,
I'm not using the power boost unit at all.
Now, the bad news. I found a clearance diagram on the Wilwood site and it is attached. Based on that and the measurements I made on my spare tire, stock wheels will not even come close to working. The dimension between the rivets is 11.75". The cardboard cutout is the larger diameter shown on the clearance diagram. The cardboard would have to go down 2-1/8" to hit the inside of the wheel.
Those dimensions are close to the setup on my car, a little bigger overall diameter and the discs are around .3" deeper into the wheel with the Wilwood rotors. Bummer. I can't think of a solution that doesn't require a wheel change of some kind.
I find my brakes are spongy as well (referring to Dan's post). I can also tell you I learned to drive on a 5 year old low milage 57 Fairlane. The main problem with the original brakes is brake fade. The brakes will completely go away after one fast stop from 70 mph. They also go away when they get wet. In either case they require time to recover. In my opinion, the drum brakes are unsafe. That is why disc brakes are used today. Pedal pressure should always be less with drum brakes because the trailing brake shoe in a top pivot design tends to be self actuated. Power addition became more prevalent as discs were used. Few cars had manual disc brakes and those cars were light. I consider myself lucky to have survived my teenage driving years in my much beloved Fairlane because of the brakes. Today if my Custom didn't have disc brakes I wouldn't drive it until it did. Like I have said the brakes I have I don't care for but they will stop the car over and over.
quote author=DanTudor57 link=topic=5469.msg42764#msg42764 date=1420435402]
I've used the Wilwood dynlalite 4 piston calipers on my '57 in multiple configuration. All my configurations have been without power booster.
My first Disc brake setup was the Granada swap. It stopped well, but i didn't use it for long. 1) I didn't like the look of tires on Granada wheels. The car just looked wrong. The tires looked like balloons, instead of that tall bias-ply look of my original wheels. 2) the Granada master cylinder refused to stay rust free. 3) The braking power seemed a little spongy and no matter how much bleeding of the lines, it was always a little 'off'
Next I figured that is I was no longer on 14 inch originals, I might as well change things up. I made my own brackets and adopted a set of Wilwood Dynalite 4-pistons polished calipers. Wilwood has a 'Granada' hub and i used it and their 11 inch rotors. (I think -- I may have used a 'Hat' kit to mount over the original Granada hub) I also upgraded to Wilwood's non-branded master cylinder. This MC, I was shocked to find out, was actually a Mopar branded item. It was a 1 inch bore and did the job great. This setup not only looked good, but it stopped on demand. The sponginess was gone. I moved to 17 inch wheels. While I had Wilwood adoption fever, I also purchased their 9 inch rear end kits with 4 calipers. Each side has a polished Dynalite and a second small mechanical spot caliper for parking brake. This setup rocked.
Finally, I got tired of the lowered looked, but loved the 17 inch wheels... So naturally I went back to the original spindle. Again, I adopted a wilwood product, but now to the original spindle. This time and my current setup is a 6 piston caliper and 13 inch rotors. This was a kit intended for 'road race' 2000 Mustang, or the C4 corvette. I don't recall the specifics. Needless to say, I spend money galore on all of this. (Yes, I was not married at the time -- only to my car).
I looked at the ebay auction for the wilwood setup that 'fits' our '57s. The brackets seems wrong. I'd have to double check our spindle. It may be that the rotors are so much smaller that what I am using, though.
If this kit works for our cars, and I did not already have what I have, and knowing what I know about wilwood. I would go with it in a heart beat.
I have pictures around here. I may have posted some to our member's rides section.
[/quote]
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-01-05 14:11
Those dimensions are close to the setup on my car, a little bigger overall diameter and the discs are around .3" deeper into the wheel with the Wilwood rotors. Bummer. I can't think of a solution that doesn't require a wheel change of some kind.
Neither can I. I asked Summit Racing if they have a drawing showing their wheel so I can verify clearances.
I'm wondering if my stock wheels and front brake drums/hardware have much value. That would offset the project cost a little.
Rich
Not to change the subject, Rich, but I'm sending you a pm
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2015-01-05 15:21
Neither can I. I asked Summit Racing if they have a drawing showing their wheel so I can verify clearances.
I'm wondering if my stock wheels and front brake drums/hardware have much value. That would offset the project cost a little.
Rich
I had a thought..... other Fords had 14 wheel and disc brakes. I think.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-79-Ford-LTD-Mercury-Marquis-5-x-4-1-2-Steel-Wheel-Rim-14-OEM-USED-1150-JS-/111325680061?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Wheels&hash=item19eb8711bd&vxp=mtr
May be more options than Granada wheels around.
Lynn,
I am wondering the same thing. I saw some Ford Ranger PU 14" wheels. There must be a place to get dimensional information on these wheels, but I haven't found it.
Summit Racing, and others, make those butt ugly white spoke wheels in 14". They are cheaper and ought to work too. The wheel cover will cover them up. Either way, it appears that from about $50 each for the white spoke wheels to the OEM style wheels at about $75 is the going rate. I'm thinking that new wheels appeal more than buying old wheels that may not be all that straight.
Rich
I think Lincoln Versailles was in the same grouping as the Granada and Monarch. I had an oem wheel size chart somewhere in the archives, I'll see if I can find it....may be posted in the tech info section.
I found one, but I think I had a better one so I'll keep looking
http://www.vehicle-bolt-pattern.com/ford-lug-reference-guide.html
It's given in mm whether or not they actually were.... Go figure(pun intended)
OH YEAH!!
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Wheel_bolt_pattern
And up top it has a inch-mm conversion chart so you won't have to go figure.
I'm gonna add it to the tech links...scratch that, they were both there already.
Rich,
Good information. I did notice that the two charts do not agree 100%.
The way I read it, the Granada wheels are 1/2" too narrow. The information missing is a dimensioned section through the wheel to verify if it will go over brake hardware.
The wheels below ought to fit, if the center hole and setback is correct. I don't know what that last column is with the "L, H or L/M" means. I think those are all front disk brake cars. Besides these Ford products, there may be a bunch of wheels from other brands that fit too.
FULL SIZE (GALAXIE,CUSTOM,ETC.) 57-64 14 X 6 5X114.3 12mmX1.5 - L
MAVERICK,MUSTANG,ETC.) 64-73 14 X 6 5X114.3 1/2-RH - L
PROBE 88-92 14 X 6 5X114.3 12mmX1.5 59.6 H
RANGER 2WD 81-on 14 X 6 5X114.3 1/2-RH - L/M
1/2 TON E-100,150 VAN 68-84 14 X 6 5X114.3 1/2-RH - L
the L, H, L/H refers to the offset (what we normally refer to as backspace?)...there's a description below the chart....important info given our rear wheel well clearance issues.
Mopar wheels have the same bolt pattern and they have a totally different center section design. If I remember right they had bigger brakes to start with. I found a set of used ones surfing the net last night. No price but anyway there there's hope.
http://www.akhwheels.com/pages/inventory.php?cat=5
I've been wondering where the information came from that the Granada wheels were the preferred wheels for this change over. That wheel is 1/2" narrower than the stock wheel.
If the 68 - 69 Mustang rotor fits on the stock spindle, then it would seem to me that the wheel from that car ought to be the wheel of choice. It is the same width and same bolt pattern as the stock wheel. However, I don't know if the backset is the same.
The Mustang is a smaller car and from what I just found, with a 302 V8, it weighed about 3,210 pounds. With a full tank of gas, my Fairlane weighs 3,800 pounds (yes, I had it weighed.) That's 18.75% more than the Mustang. The '69 Mustang rotor is 11.3", another full size car, the '69 Galaxie is 11.73" and weighs about 4,100 pounds. I don't know what the area is that the brake pad sweeps, but if you only look at the outer 2" of each rotor, there is only about a 4.2% difference in area. Probably does not make much difference.
I'm getting a little anal here, but I don't want to find that things don't work well when the project is complete.
Rich
The thinking on Granada wheels when using Granada brakes is the center hole to fit the Granada hub. If you think about it a 1/2" difference in width is only a 1/4" on each side. The two cars that I have seen I didn't notice the 1/4" difference as being noticeable.
My Torino rotors are actually less then 11" they are closer to 10 3/4". Backspacing and offset are two different measurements but one determines the other for a given wheel width. Backspacing is the distance from the inside edge of the wheel to the mounting suface. Offset is the distance from the wheel centerline to the mounting surface. A 7" wheel is 8" wide, a backspace of 4" means the wheel has zero offset. 4.25" backspace means the wheel has .25" negative offset. 3.75" backspace means .25" positive offset. Positive offset will increase the track width, negative decreases it. Part of the issue with stock wheels besides the center hole diameter is having the proper offset that puts the rotor inside the rim at the right place. As an extreme example any diameter wheel with zero backspace would fit any brake setup Ideally you would like to keep the same offset as the oem wheel to keep overall suspension geometry from changing when changing wheels.
Lynn,
Are you using the stock spindle with the Torino rotors? What year are you talking about? I looked and for 1969, the Torino rotor is 11.3", just like the Mustang.
I'm still investigating wheels. Thanks for the information.
Rich
Rich,
I bought rotors for a 1974 Gran Torino. I looked for a while trying to match what was on the car when I bought it. These spindles to the best of my knowledge do not lower the '57. I realized IF those Torinos had 14" wheels they would obviously work.
Lynn
Lynn,
If I've got to buy wheels, I will stick with the stock spindle and then what ever wheel best fits it, such as the Granada/Mustang/or new manufactured wheel. I looked at the specs for the '74 Gran Torino and it is a 10.8" rotor. But, as I'm sure you know, that rotor won't fit the stock spindle.
I'm having problems get dimensional information from suppliers. I may have to get a rotor and caliper and make a scale drawing that I can send to the wheel suppliers so they can confirm it will fit. Before I do that, I will go over to a tire store that sells aftermarket wheels and see if their catalog has dimensional information. There's a Big O tire store near me where I know one of the guys.
Rich
Rich
If you buy a single wheel from Summit and it doesn't fit they will take it back as long as you don't marr it any way. The return shipping costs are also paid by them. They make it easy, there is a form you fill out in the box. I only returned a set of 2" gauges and bought 2 5/8" instead but a return is a return. I would confirm that with them to make sure though.....
Not sure what wheels you looked at Summit, but http://www.wheelvintiques.com/ are one of the suppliers. You may be able to call and talk to someone about dimensions. Many wheel suppliers can make custom wheel to your dimensions also. I had custom steel wheels made for both of my trucks and they didn't cost any more then ones off the shelf..
Jim,
I was on the Summit Racing website and the wheels I was looking at were actually from Vintiques.
Thanks,
Rich
Rich, I am seriously thinking about buying a 14'' x 6" wheel from Summit for my spare. If I do I'll let you know. I am confident enough that it will fit to take a chance on the pain of returning it. I can also make a template/drawing of what I have if it helps. Where did you find the rotor specs? It was a couple of years ago when I was looking for rotor info but I couldn't find much info on that. I got help from the gentleman that owns Drop'em & Stop'em, he might can help. We talked about vacuum boosters as well. He has been doing older Fords for a while.
Lynn,
I've been getting the information from the Rockauto website. Here is a link. http://www.rockauto.com/
It's easy to navigate. Go to Ford/1974/Gran Torino/Brakes/Rotor and then click on a rotor until you find one that list the size.
I then backed up and found the wheel bearings for that rotor. It gives the O.D. and I.D. (or bore) sizes. The stock '57 spindle takes 1.25" inner and .75" outer bearings. That's how I was able to figure out that the Mustang rotor was a direct fit. However, I haven't yet taken measurements to determine backset.
On a previous post, I inserted a picture of a diagram from wildwood where they give the wheel clearances on the rotor/caliper that they are selling for the Fairlane. Using that information I made the cardboard cutout that I tested on my spare tire. There are two radii listed, 6.01" and 6.67" I marked both, but only cut out the larger one. I was thinking that I should have cut out both and then taken a few pieces of 2"x4" and glued it between the pieces of cardboard. that would give a better idea if the caliper would fit.
Since I will have to get new wheels, I will get something that will fit this configuration. I'm not changing the spindle. The Torino uses different size wheel bearings.
However, I would like the dimensional information that you get.
I've been looking at hydroboost units. There seems to be a wide range of them and I can't really tell what the differences are from the websites that I found. Just different pricing. There is a cheap on used on some Chevy Suburban's, only about $250. But I have no idea if that would work. I've seen one advertised for use in the 57 Fairlane and they wanted about $450 for it. I don't have power steering, so mounting a pump would be an additional thing to do. I don't have a bracket for the pump, but I've looked at them and I think I can fabricate one that will look a lot like the original.
Thanks,
Rich
Thanks for the info. I am kind of a freak when it comes to research about what I want to accomplish. If I had done brakes on my car from a stock configuration I would have never changed spindles either given available options. I posted earlier about a two bolt hydroboost Bosch unit in the "Power Brake Boosters" section. I think this a bolt on (at this point). I at some point I plan on using a Saginaw pump and probably a recirculating ball power steering box (as opposed to rack and pinion). I am following a thread just posted about a Borgeson box being installed by canadian_ranchero in a manual transmission car.
I got a 14" wheel in today (finally) and it fits on the 10.8" Torino rotors on my car. It is a 14 x 6 1/2 with 4" BS and a 2 3/4" center hole. It is a Ford wheel off of a 1979 LTD.
LTD II
Now I'm confused, what was a LTD II ? I has assumed the LTD would have 15" wheels?
'70s Lincolns and full size Ford(LTD and wagons), some mid '70s Thunderbirds and full size Mercury wheels were 5X5X15. '77-79 LTD II and Thunderbirds were on a similar frame and size(many interchange parts). Many '77-'79 LTD IIs had 14" wheels with 15" options but with the common 5x4.5 bolt pattern.
I checked before I bought the wheel and 79 LTDs had 14" wheels. Apparently the "full size" 4th generation LTDs were built on the smaller "panther" platform. According to "automobile-catalog.com" the standard tire size for a Ford LTD Landau 4-door Sedan 5.8L V-8 (1979) was FR78-14, the front discs were 10.7" dia. I verified that with Tire Rack. I can't really tell you what the wheel came off of other than what I was told. This wheel at 6.5" wide is wider than I would have liked, but there is another Ford model that has 14" wheels that will work on smaller disc brakes.
Lynn,
Great job on finding another wheel that might fit into the mix of parts to do disk brakes and keep 14" wheels.
I am thinking that for me, the project needs the following.
New rotors to fit existing spindle. Scarebird is using the '68-'69 Mustang rotor. That equals no change in ride height and no changes to suspension. I have already completely rebuilt the front suspension. I've had the springs out, replaced all bushings, bearings, ball joints and tie rod ends. If anyone wants to know how easy it was to R & R the front springs, I can explain how I did it. The service manual tells how to remove the springs and then says to reverse the process to reinstall them. It won't work for replacement, but I did come up with an easy method.
Calipers & caliper mounting kit. This must work with the new rotors/wheels. I've been looking at the pictures of the caliper mounting kits and they don't seem all that complicated. I have pretty good metal working skills and may opt to make my own mounting hardware. Then perhaps I could use the 1979 LTD caliper with a Mustang rotor machined down to 10.8".
New wheels to clear the new rotor/caliper. These wheels need to be reasonably priced and findable.
Right now, it is very close to working with stock wheels. I measured 11.75" between the rivets. I need to see how much room the 1979 LTD calipers take. If anyone has a caliper and can measure the distance from the edge of the caliper to the outer edge of the caliper, then we can see if this has any chance of fitting into the stock wheel.
The Rockauto site says the rotor for the LTD is 10.8". The Mustang rotor is 11.3", so it's only 1/4" off of the radius to match them up. If it were possible to take a little more without causing a problem with the sweep of the pad on the rotor, then perhaps the stock wheels could be used.
Rich
OK, what is your easy way to R&R the springs? Always like to hear ideas!!
In the service manual, the describe using a jack to let the spring down. I did that by putting the car up on jack stands and then with a floor jack, picking up enough weight to compress the springs, then removing the ball joints and then letting the lower control arm down in to a vertical position. The lower control arm will be pointing straight down at this point. there is a small bump in the lower spring seat that will hold the spring in position. Just push the arm a little past vertical and the spring will just fall out. The manual says to reverse this operation to reinstall the spring.
Well, you can put the spring back into the upper housing and rehang it on the lower control arm, but you can't budge the control arm at this point so you can't jack the control back into position. On the side of the frame you will see where a bent pipe cross member is welded in. I stuck a piece of pipe about 5' long into this hole in the frame. At the end of this pipe I hooked one end of a cable come-a-long with the other end attached to the bottom to the control arm. I them used the come-a-long to pull the lower control arm up to about a 45 degree position. At that point I put the jack back under the control arm and pushed it into position. I had to have both the upper and lower ball joints loose in order to finish the reinstallation. At first I had the upper ball joint tight and intended to hook up the lower ball joint when I jacked the lower control arm into position. This did not work. I ended up lifting the car off of the jack stand before the control arm was in position. It was close, but not close enough to put a nut on the ball joint. I then backed off the nut on the upper ball joint and managed to get the nut on the lower ball joint.
Later, I thought that I might have been able to use a chain between the frame and the bottom of the jack to prevent lifting the car off of the jack stands, but that might be a little dangerous.
By the way, you need a special press to remove and install the new bushings. I managed to borrow a set from a friend.
Yes, I know the control arms should be black, but I like red.
Prior to doing this, I was hearing a metallic knock every time I hit a bump. Two of the control arm bushings had the rubber completely gone. If anyone is interested, I have a complete set of new control arm bushings surplus to my needs.
Rich
Good to know, thanks.
Rich are you using the stock springs? I've done several front end rebuilds over the years, and one of the first things I did to my ranchero when I got it and have always just used the jack to put them back together without a problem. Did you also replace the rubber spring seats?
My springs are stock. I made my own rubber seats out of some 60 mill EPDM rubber.
I would say I got it all back together without problems, but not like it said in the service manual. I could not budge lower control arm from the vertical position without using the pipe and come-a-long. Perhaps another owner put in new front springs, but I doubt it. My front end was worn out. The car had about 2,500 on the odometer, so I assume it's only been around once. I have considered either new rear springs or rearching the existing springs. For now, I installed Monroe coil over shocks and that helped a bunch.
Rich
My car had heated 6 cyinder springs with 3 collapsed coils....they fell out when I dropped the lower control arms. I put 59 Edsel V8 springs in with no problems at all though I thought it would be impossibe at first. I actually compressed the springs enough to get 'em to pop in "by hand".
What is a "heated 6 cylinder spring?"
I suppose it's possible that I did not do something right with the reinstallation, but with the spring hanging in position, there was no way I could budge the lower control arm. I did have the spring clocked properly so that it dropped into the recess for the tail end of the coil. It's not a complicated job, but you don't want to screw up with a big spring under compression.
I am also considering replacing the anti sway bar. The original one is very small, especially when looking at what is on new cars. The one on my new Explorer is massive and there is no appreciable lean when going into corners. From what I've read, the aftermarket one available from Concours works well.
Rich
Heating the springs is old school cheap way to lower the front end, you heat them with a torch and let them collapse. Ask me how I know :003:
I'm really happy with the front bar I put on mine, really helps the handling in the corners. Because I have Granada spindles/disc brake the car sits lower in the front and I bottom it out on some driveways and gutter crossings, a normal ride height car shouldn't be a problem at all.
This weekend is the Tri-State Swap Meet in Denver. It takes up a huge amount of space at the National Western Complex. I've never been and I was amazed. There must be a thousand exhibitors and tens of thousand of people wandering the aisles.
I managed to find the only set of 14" Granada wheels left for sale in the western hemisphere. 4 for a total of $80 and the guy may have a fifth one still at home. I hope so. Anyway, I am off and running. I still need to decide if I will buy a complete kit or build up my own from the scarebird brackets, Mustang Rotors & Chevy S10 calipers. The scarebird brackets are for sale on eBay and direct from their website for about $30 less than the eBay.
The complete kits I am aware of are not cheap.
http://www.classicdiscbrakes.com/1957-61-Ford-Fairlane-Front-Disc-Brake-Conversion-Wheel-Kit-604604.htm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131401552907?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I am leaning strongly towards just buying the components.
Rich
Rich...I need to apologize to you for not being able to contact you at the swapmeet. I need a new cellphone, and my hearing really is bad. I didn't hear the phone when it rang...or feel it vibrating for some reason, but the main thing was my touchscreen froze up and was not operable, so I couldn't get to the touchpad to call you.
Al and I ran into Marty there (we all went up seperatly)after he saw you..he said you were wearing a red polo shirt..but that didin't help find you either! Anyway, at least our plans to meet got you there and it worked out for you..great you found those wheels!!
Rich,
Bummer that we did not to meet up. But, I did run into three guys I knew there, including Marty. That alone is quite amazing considering the number of people that were there.
We will try again sometime in the future.
Rich
Well, now that I have the Granada wheels, I made a decision on what to do for brake parts.
I've gone whole hog and bought the Wilwood kit. I got if from the guy selling the kits on eBay, but through conversations to confirm that this would work, he made me a direct offer for a 5% discount. I also learned that the wilwood calipers use a nonstandard size for the brake hose, so I got adapters too.
I still need to hear from the guy I bought the wheels from to see if he has the 5th wheel. If not, I am back on the search for one more wheel.
I want to media blast the wheels and then have them powder coated. To avoid an extra setup charge, I need all 5 wheels at once.
Rich
Rich,
Great to hear you got 4 wheels (so far) and I know you must be happy to have "pulled the trigger" on you brake project... I think the Wilwood set up is a great choice. Please keep us informed on your progress as the installation moves forward! :003:
Awesome. Keep us posted.
did you make that set up will fit inside the 14"wheels?
Yes, it will fit. A while back, I made a cardboard template that is the size of the O.D. of the caliper when mounted on the car. It fits just fine. On the Wilwood site they had a drawing with all the dimensions. I think I posted a copy of that drawing a while back on this thread. I printed out the installation instructions, and read them, and called the Wilwood tech support people prior to purchasing it just to make sure. I'm better at doing my homework now than when I was in High School.
I suppose that problems are still possible, but I've done what I can without having parts in hand.
Rich
I've been wondering where my parts are. Turns out that they are back ordered, supposed to ship in a couple of week.
I finally found a 5th steel wheel and actually a 6th. If anyone needs a Granada wheel, I can put you in touch with a friend of mine.
Rich
I was wondering about your progress. How wide and what is the backspacing of your Granada wheels?... peace of mind thing! :003:
The wheel is 6" wide with a 3-3/8" back set. See photo to see how I measured the back set.
Rich
Thanks Rich for the info. Backspacing is technically measured to the inside edge of the rim but your measurment tells me what I was looking far. I make the actual backspacing at 3 3/4". I may start looking for stock spindles if you like your kit.
Lynn,
I just remeasured. You are dead nuts on. I included the picture because I was not sure exactly where the measurement is taken.
I'll let you, and everyone else, know how the install goes when I get the parts, they are to be delivered 2/26. I have direct contact information that I can pass on. They gave me 5% off of their kit when I bought direct, $595 including shipping and two adapters. They are already quite a bit less expensive than buying from Wilwood.
If you go to the Wilwood website, you can download the installation instructions, it's only 9 pages. On page two, there is a diagram of parts that shows a spindle that is NOT like the one on our cars. I called and talked to their tech rep and he assures me that that drawing has a generic spindle.
I also bought a pair of adapters ($15) so I can use standard brake hoses. For some reason, their calipers are not threaded for standard brake hoses.
I think the scarebird adapters are still a good deal, but I decided to go for a complete kit, plus I think the Wilwood calipers are better than the S-10 calipers. Maybe, maybe not.
Rich
After having such a tough time finding the Granada wheels, I have 5 for myself and I know where two more are if anyone is interested.
By the way, my parts did not arrive last week, they are to be here March 4th. I just installed a heater in my garage so I won't freeze my butt off when working out there. My guess is that we will now be in for a period of record warmth.
Rich
I got my parts today and they are defiantly first rate. I'll get started on the project soon and will provide pictures and let you guys know how it all goes.
In the picture you can see the clearance with the rotor and caliper just sitting inside the wheel.
Rich
Awesome! Nothing like new trick parts in plastic in the house! Christmas in March!!!
Thats a nice looking set up. I'm just assuming these require a power brake booster?
I was running similar wilwood calipers on my '57 some time ago using the non-power Granada master cylinder -- I think it was from the "Taxi" model. It worked fine, I also later upgraded with the same calipers on the rear with the same master cylinder.
I was actually using Willood's kit for a '66 Mustang adapter to my '57, so I had larger 11.3 inch wilwood rotors.
Dan, This kit uses the 11.3" Mustang rotors (68 - 69).
Hiball, This does not need power brakes. I did purchase a power booster last year and went through a lot of crap and never got it to work properly. I do have a dual master cylinder on the car now. I also have a 10psi back pressure valve on each half of the system. I will change the back pressure valve on the front to a 2 psi unit.
I've got a lot going on through the weekend so won't get much done on this project until Monday.
Rich
I'm glad that conversion doesn't require a power unit, I recall all the problems you had with the one you tried to use. I wish I still had stock spindles and could use this set up but the Granada brakes work fine for me I just don't like the front end being so low..
I just started this afternoon on installing the kit. In less than one hour, starting from the removal of the tire, I had one side done except for the brake hose. The kit is pretty good, but they sent me a brake hose adapter that does not work with my stock hose. I'm not sure it is supposed to. So far, my only challenge is to get the dust cover on the hub. A challenge that I haven't met yet.
Rich
Thanks for those pictures and clarification on the setup.
I'm a little surprised at the design and parts they used for this kit.
If my memory doesn't fail me, I was able to mount the 11.3 mustang rotor -- the two piece rotor -- on my stock spindle using one of Wilwood's aluminum hubs and the right bearings. I fabricated the caliper mount with 1/2 iron, that mounted on the lower bolt, but used a spacer for the upper bolt. When I spoke to them about a kit for my car years ago, they told me there was no market. How things change.
After a while I opted for 13 inch rotors and 6 piston calipers. I'll have to go check if they decide to also provide that on our spindles..
Dan,
This kit uses the standard 68 - 69 Mustang rotors with standard bearings. They are a perfect fit for the Fairlane spindle. The only change is a .27" spacer behind the wheel bearings.
I tried to set the new rotor and caliper inside of the stock wheel and, as we all know, it does not fit. However, it is close. I believe that the 70's Lincoln Versailles uses a smaller rotor, I would think with some creative engineering, some combination of parts would work with the stock wheels. For me, it no longer matters. I got the Granada wheels cleaned and painted and have two tires swapped over. I'll do the rest when I get the car down off of the lift. I am really enjoying not having to crawl around anymore. It's an easy stand up project.
All in all, it's simple and easy to install. I am heading to a hotrod shop in the morning to see if I can find a brake hose that will work.
We have a warm spell here in Denver and I would like to get this completed and tested.
Rich
Rich, It looks great, I am sure it will work as goos as it looks. Let us know. PS, I'm sure its a moot point but I used a PVC pipe coupling to seat the dust cap....
I bought a PVC wye fitting, it gave me a "handle" on one side. Steel pipe was just a hair to small or way too big. It worked, but I've never had to work so hard to install such a small part. I think they could shrink the dust cap a thousandth or so.
I have new braided stainless steel front hoses installed. All I have left to do is put the proportioning valve on and bleed the system. A few honey do's may delay the completion until tomorrow.
Rich
I have stock hoses on my brakes now but stainless lines really improve response and feel based my experience. Good choice.
Rich,
Something I learned that hard way.. make sure you have the correct compound for your pads. Wilwood offers several compounds, but when I bought my kits, they shipped with track specific pads. These will eat your rotors in a few hundred miles (200 miles and mine were gone); require very specific break-in steps and have specific usage specifications.. Make sure you have the softer, street-specific compound.
Dan,
I told them that I don't have a hot rod and wanted "standard" pads. That's what they told me I have. I hope so. I can't imagine destroying rotors in just 200 miles.
After wearing out my wife on brake bleeding, I have a friend coming over tomorrow so I can complete the job.
I bought a brake bleeding kit from Harbor Freight and it's a piece of crap.
We are doing it the old fashioned way.
Rich
Did you buy the Harbor Freight model that hooks up to a compressor? I thought it worked pretty well, and I bought it on recommendations from other car guys that liked it alot.. It's like $50., $30. on sale...they had 3 different ones to chose from, but I think only the one that hooked up to a compressor.
Rich,
No, I don't even remember seeing that one. I bought this a year or two ago when I last worked on brakes. It's a cheap hand held POS.
The rubber gaskets did not stand up to brake fluid and the hand held pump does not pull much vacuum at 5,700'.
Dan, this is the brake pad that I got with my kit http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsProd.aspx?itemno=150-8850K
The compound is BP-10.
Rich
I've always used the wife method but last year my son bought a pump, not cheap HF, that pumps from the wheel cylinders and it worked great. Then he put the bleeders on his wheel cylinders that have the spring loaded check valve and he likes those better. I may try those in the future..
I got the brakes done Friday, but it seemed like my dual chamber master cylinder was not working right. I got good fluid flow to the rear when bleeding, but not to the front. Maybe less than 1/4 the fluid for each press of the brake pedal in the front compared to the rear. The car stopped okay, but not great. Also, I could feel that I hit bottom when pushing hard on the brakes and I could not lock up a wheel. I just ordered a new master cylinder from rockauto. None of the local parts houses had what I wanted and rockauto has this one on a close out sale.
I looked through the full size Fords for a car that has disk/drum brakes. The 1967 Galaxy had what I wanted and I confirmed that the bolt pattern works too. Although it is a two bolt not a 4 bolt cylinder. So now, I am wondering if I should remove my 10 psi back pressure valve since this master cylinder was designed for what I now have.
Rich
I would remove it if for no other reason than to eliminate it as contributing factor.
Lynn,
I agree. It's a cheap part, no point in taking a chance.
I hope that I've made a good choice, it seemed logical to use this type of master cylinder.
Prices ranged from about $20 (about $30 including shipping) on rockauto to over $120 at NAPA.
Rich
My car has a dual master cylinder that I suspect came off the same car that the disc brakes came from. I would have used the same logic that you did in selecting a master cylinder as a starting point but I would be mentally prepared for the possibility of the need of a proportioning valve....
Lynn,
I do have the proportioning valve installed as well as the 10 psi residual pressure valve. I am thinking that neither of these may be required with a master cylinder designed for the disk/drum brake setup. The proportioning valve can be adjusted to the point that it will have no influence. As to the residual pressure valve, that may be a problem. I'm not sure, but having two inline, may give me a 20 psi residual. After a little driving, I can lift a rear wheel and give it a spin. If there is brake drag, I will remove the added residual valve and check it again.
Rich
My car has neither and the brakes seem reasonably balanced. The rears do tend to lock up first though and I am still liking the conversion you selected to use over what I have.... keep up the progress posts please!
The majority of master cylinders (new and rebuilt) for disc/drum brakes have built in residual check valves.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-03-17 23:00
The majority of master cylinders (new and rebuilt) for disc/drum brakes have built in residual check valves.
Thanks for the comment. It makes sense to me that this would be the case. The new master cylinder is to be delivered today. I will go ahead and repipe it without the added residual pressure valve. That will be a cleaner job anyway. Also, this master cylinder appears to have a port for the brake light switch. That will also allow me to remove the inline tee I installed for the pressure switch.
I won't get started on this until Friday. Lunch today with my antique radio club guys and all day Thursday, I volunteer at the Colorado RR Museum.
Rich
If that has a port for the brake light switch I would like to have one like that as mine is on a T also. I have no proportioning valve and I'm not sure if the master has a residual valve for the rear, it doesn't feel like it..
Jim,
I got the part this afternoon. I confirmed the bolt hole spacing is correct and I measured the depth into the cylinder for the push rod and that appears to be fine too. I had to buy one reverse flare fitting adapter, 3/8" male to 3/16" female.
There is one fitting on the side for the rear chamber and one on the bottom at the front for the front chamber. There is another fitting on the side that is pipe thread that I will put the brake switch into.
I'll have this done by Friday if you want to wait to order one like mine. Rockauto still has two in stock of the one I bought. It's on a closeout and with shipping it was about $30 and I got it in three days. See photo below and you can see what I ordered. It's a 1967 Ford Galaxy front disk/rear drum and not power brakes. If you search on MC36225, you should be able to find that unit from other sources.
If anyone knows how to determine if there is a residual pressure valve for the rear brakes, I would like to know how to do that. I will pipe the smaller (front) chamber to the rear brakes. From what I've been told, the disk brakes get the larger chamber because as the pads wear out fluid is displaced into the caliper and that's why it needs the larger reservoir.
Rich
I hit the wrong button, but can't delete this.
Thanks Rich, that's all good information. I may go this way in the future, my brake light switch is set up on a T and I have never liked it. I'd like to know how to determine if a residual valve is in the master also..
The larger reservoir portion does go to the discs. They just require more volume. Wear has nothing to do with it, as far as I know.
Rich..do some research before you hook up that front reservoir to the rear brakes. I believe the larger/rear one should go to the drums. If I remember correctly, the drum brakes use more volume than the disks, which is also the reason for the risidual valve.
I have been told by the owner of DropnStop that pushing a straightened wire paper clip through the outlet port and if you feel resistance there is a residual check valve in that port. No resistance - no check valve.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-03-18 19:30
Rich..do some research before you hook up that front reservoir to the rear brakes. I believe the larger/rear one should go to the drums. If I remember correctly, the drum brakes use more volume than the disks, which is also the reason for the risidual valve.
I hope you speak with forked tongue or I have two cars backwards :003:
Needless to say, I am not an expert on this subject. I will challenge the guy that told me that and I will talk to a guy I know that teaches automotive technology at the local community college and another guy I know that has a Ford repair shop.
On the paper clip trick. I first checked the old master cylinder, no check valve for sure on either chamber. On the new master cylinder, no check valve on the rear (large) chamber, the front (small) chamber feels different, so "maybe" a check valve here. I did feel resistance, kind of like I was hitting something like rubber. Nothing like that in the large chamber port.
I am glad I brought this up.
Rich
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-03-18 20:18
I hope you speak with forked tongue or I have two cars backwards :003:
I have only one. Been reading stuff on line.... I am of the opinion the bigger reservoir (primary) goes to the disc brakes. The residual pressure valves may or may not be needed depending on drum brake design as I read the stuff. 57s have manually adjustable rear drums, 67s have self adjusting rear drums. This is a lot more complicated than I thought. :o
I just did a little internet research and found this, see image below.
Here is a link to the thread I found. http://www.flatheadv8.org/mustang-mc.htm
You can read through it and form your own conclusions. But, it sounds like my friend was right. Large chamber to the front brakes.
I don't think the size of the chamber has anything to do with the amount of fluid being delivered to the wheel cylinders/calipers. That is determined by the piston in the master cylinder.
Rich
I've heard back from all three of my "experts" and they confirm that the large (rear) chamber is for the front disk brakes.
Here is another link to a website that I found that also confirms that information. Check the second paragraph.
http://www.auto-repair-help.com/automotive_maintenance/master_cylinder.php
I still plan to have the new master cylinder installed and have a test drive tomorrow.
Rich
I, for one, am waiting for a detailed accurate report! :003:
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2015-03-19 19:39
I've heard back from all three of my "experts" and they confirm that the large (rear) chamber is for the front disk brakes.
Here is another link to a website that I found that also confirms that information. Check the second paragraph.
http://www.auto-repair-help.com/automotive_maintenance/master_cylinder.php
I still plan to have the new master cylinder installed and have a test drive tomorrow.
i agree,large[rear]chamber for the front disc brakes
Rich
The larger reservoir is for the disc in a disc/drum. Does not matter if it is closes to the flange or the furthest from the flange. The reason the disc reservoir is larger is the size of the puck in the caliper requires more fluid as the pads wear out and the pucks move closer to the disc.
The rear brakes require more fluid during the application stroke because the cylinders are retracted after the pedal is released. The disc pucks have no return mechanism so they basically stay in place and require very little volume to be applied.
Pictures of Residual Check Valves
I finished the project today. The short version is that everything is working well and no complaints.
I got the new master cylinder installed and new lines run. I still have the proportioning valve installed, but I have it adjusted to the point where it is doing nothing. My current opinion is that it is not necessary with the system I installed. I do not have a separate residual pressure valve installed. The master cylinder is a perfect fit. It is quite close with a small sheet metal ledge that runs above it, but it does not interfere. I did strip out both of the sheet metal nuts where the master cylinder bolts on. I just added a nut and lock washer on the inside. I "might" have turned the bolt a little too hard, but I don't want the master cylinder falling off of the firewall. I do have the large chamber connected to the front disks. I was wrong about being able to connect the brake switch to the third port on the master cylinder. That port has a bleed valve installed and the threads for that are not pipe threads, so I still have the tee installed for the brake light switch. The stock push rod works perfect with the master cylinder. Pedal height is just right and there is a lot of pedal left when you jam on the brakes.
The car has been tested quite a few times from about 40 to a hard stop and a couple of times from about 55 to a hard stop. I can lock up the brakes, but it takes a deliberate effort to do so. Pedal pressure is less than with the drum/drum brakes and the braking is superior. There is no pull to either direction. Come on over and I'll take you for a ride.
Rich
That is great news Rich. I don't have a proportioning valve either and it seems to work fine. Too bad the T for the brake light switch couldn't be eliminated but as long as it works and it stops good that is all that matters.
Awesome, congrats on the job. The intriguing part is about pedal pressure. I would have thought it would have been more. Vacuum assist nightmares over? Your opinion on a scale of 1 to 10? ( I know it is to soon to tell...) :003:
It is too soon to make a final assessment, but I am quite pleased with the way things are working. Previously, brakes were okay, but if you hit them hard, the car would pull to the right and I could never get that corrected. New shoes, drums in good condition, just could not solve it. Also, I had high pedal effort, at least it seamed that way to me. I also had problems with mountain driving. Coming down a mountain road, I would have brake fade in just a few miles. Now, all should be just fine.
For anyone wanting to do the upgrade, I would really recommend getting a master cylinder like I got. It's a perfect fit and works great.
Another thing was that I had trouble removing and installing the rear tires. The Granada wheels are 1" wider than the stock Fairlane (5")wheels. There is not enough clearance between the wheel well and the drum to clear the tires I have. I have R205-75-14's that came from Diamondback Radials. I put a bottle jack between the axel and the frame and pushed the axel down about an inch to get them on. I am going to buy a cheap bottle jack to keep in the trunk just in case.
Rich
One of the guys I told you I was checking with is a former research engineer for Ford.
I asked him about the issue of having the master cylinder connected the reverse of what I have. Here is that email exchange.
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Rich:
The fluid level is the big difference as normally the Master Cylinder will not have differential pressures internally, it becomes another failure point for the hydraulics There are always exceptions). Valving takes place after the Master Cylinder pistons to reduce pressure as needed. I suspect the reversal on other 57?s is due to space or fitment constraints that may be made easier by reversing the reservoir. You could always rig it with hydraulic pressure transducers to watch for peak, ramp and oscillation of the fluid if you needed a few weeks? worth of entertainment then write the definitive 57 brake conversion guide.
Jon
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Jon,
I installed a new master cylinder yesterday and the new brake system works great. I do have a proportioning valve installed, but currently have it set so that it is doing nothing. With a m/c for a car that had disk/drum brakes, I don?t think I need it. I also omitted the external residual pressure valve for the rear brakes, I did confirm that the m/c has one installed.
I have been posting information on the ?57 Ford website and several guys have noted that they have the large chamber on the m/c piped to the rear brakes. Apart from the extra fluid available in the reservoir, does this make any difference? Is the secondary piston delivering sufficient fluid for the caliper to work?
Rich
Well, his reply went right over my head quickly...but I had obviously mispoke anyway based on the other replies. I went back looking for the thread that got me thinking the way I was. I think it is the fact that on the single reservoir Mustang hydroboost master, the front outlet is for the front brakes and is larger than the back outlet for the rear brakes. The Mustang rear brakes I believe are discs as well.
This has been a long process, but, for me, successful as well as a learning experience.
I attached a couple of photos of the install on my master cylinder. Since I took the pictures, I removed the proportioning valve. I paid a little over $50 for it. If anyone wants it, I will take $35 for it.
If anyone has any questions, let me know.
Rich
So let me get this straight in summery.
This Brake Kit http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Marauder-Cyclone-Ford-Galaxie-Ranchero-Wilwood-Front-Dynalite-Brake-Kit-/131833479905?hash=item1eb1e342e1:g:i6EAAOSw0vBUbktM
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Marauder-Cyclone-Ford-Galaxie-Ranchero-Wilwood-Front-Dynalite-Brake-Kit-/131833479905?hash=item1eb1e342e1:g:i6EAAOSw0vBUbktM) will bolt straight up to stock 1957 Ford Spindles and require a 15" Steel wheel instead of a 14". Is that correct? Also this kit will require a different brake line/fitting to work with the original 57 Ford Lines? Part manufacturer/number? Also this kit will work with out a booster but will require a dual master is this correct? Part manufacturer/number?
Thanks in advance!
I just put this kit on my car. I have 15" wheels, I believe I have a 14" Ford wheel that will work but I have not tried it. The stock rigid steel lines will work but I used braided steel flex hoses to replace the rubber hoses. I also used a '67 dual master cylinder from a Galaxie.
Hoses I bought from this guy, great service, custom hoses
http://www.ebay.com/usr/goodbrakes?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754
The master cylinder came from Rock Auto PN MC36225, it is for a 67 Galaxie, disc/drum car, no power booster.
I love this kit, the brakes work great.
I bought my kit from this vendor on eBay and he will furnish the hoses as well.
http://www.ebay.com/usr/kratter?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754
Thank You very much for the wonderful clarification!