First of all...since these have evolved into build threads, a link to my previous thread mostly on the 4.6 dohc drive train: http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3750.0
List of subject matters on post 765 http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5795.msg67465#msg67465
A few things finished up lately...
third brake light, front kick panels, getting my replacement windshield ready to go in. I also installed a hidden electronic antenae 'cause I just can't decide on the two rear '56 swept-back antenaes I bough years ago. I'm also working on an electric trunk release. I probably could have made a better choice on the solenoid I got, but I think I can make it work. It's a push type, a pull type would have been easier..duh!!
It looks like its getting pretty close to the end Rich!
Yes...a light at the end of the tunnel...and...it is not an onrushing train.... :003:
Looking very good sir!
Yep, my things-to-do list is getting shorter, but I'm still lots of time and $$ to finish. Hopefully the windshield will be installed this weekend then I can start finishing up the trim around the inside/dash area. After that the front sheetmetal, which I'm not looking forward to. I've got some repainting to do at least on the hood. After some suspension tightening, tires and wheels and shocks, it should be ready for a test drive.
I still have not done anything with the rear end, but that can be done after it's driven a bit.
Aside from being short of cash to finish quickly, Mama is starting to nag a bit about getting back to working on the house..got to replace a flat roof area on the back of the house with a slopped roof, replace a deck, and get the soffit areas all around the house scrapped and painted.That flat roofed area I'm redoing is where the main electrical line to the house comes in, so that's gonna be a pita to work around.
Forgot...I still have the exhaust system to finish up, although I'm not sure if I'm going to do it or bring it to a local custom exhaust shop here in town. I still haven't decided on which mufflers to run...hopefully I'll hear something I like on a 4.6 at shows this summer. I'm realistically still looking at a year or so to finish everything. Maybe next summer I'll get to do some cruse nights or a show.
Rich, I'm sure you have watched the video titled something like, "Is Hot Rodding Dead?"
Looking at your garage, and the car build progress photos, makes me think about the narration in that video.
Guys going to work with "red eyes in the morning", after working all night building their Hot Rods in their home garages.........Etc.
Slow and steady, and it will get done.
Rich you have probably answered this before but what did you use for your third brake light? I have studied the back of my car forever and there is just no place to cut one in. The window mount in your picture looks good in fact your whole build is very impressive. I am looking foreword to meeting up with you in Scottsdale again one of these years and seeing the completed car live.
Looking good Rich, but it's this stage where you seem to be spending so much time and money ordering all of those little bits & pieces that you'd either forgotten about or have lost! I've just ordered a few small bits & pieces and it came to over $150!!!!
Quote from: Limey57 on 2015-05-08 14:22
Looking good Rich, but it's this stage where you seem to be spending so much time and money ordering all of those little bits & pieces that you'd either forgotten about or have lost! I've just ordered a few small bits & pieces and it came to over $150!!!!
Yep...started about 8 years ago I think. I just got done ordering a second trunk latch release solenoid because the first one I bought isn't going to work. At the swap meet last weekend, I picked one up, then 1/2 way home I realized it was a push instead of pull type. Probably would have worked had it been built with a metal plunger, but the way I tried to hook it up is binding up the plunger because the cable is pulling it at an angle.
John...no red eyes in the morning for me because I spent all night working on the car...I do maybe a few hours a day, then it's time to nap or watch a ball game, lol.
Doug....Yes, another Phoenix meeting would be good. I hope we still have folks to visit out there by the time I'm comfortable with taking the '57 on that long of a drive. We lost Uncle Jack earlier this year, and Aunt Bobbie is in her late 80's.
The 3rd brake light is kinda an ugly one. It's out of a Cadilac, and will be replaced when I find a better looking one, but for now, enough time spent fiddling with an attempted replacement, so time to move on and add it to my redo-it-later list. An inside pic, and the one I was attempting to use/make is sitting on the folded down seat back. I may end up with a billet one.
Looks nice Rich with everything coming together. When you get to the windshield install can you or anyone else explain how the curved corner molding pieces attach? I have one side that is lose and from the diagrams in the shop manual I can't figure out how they attach or are held in place or how to install them. I'm afraid to pull it loose to see what makes it tick, this type of work just isn't my bag, I'd rather pull an engine or trans then a molding :003:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-05-08 16:23
Looks nice Rich with everything coming together. When you get to the windshield install can you or anyone else explain how the curved corner molding pieces attach? I have one side that is lose and from the diagrams in the shop manual I can't figure out how they attach or are held in place or how to install them. I'm afraid to pull it loose to see what makes it tick, this type of work just isn't my bag, I'd rather pull an engine or trans then a molding :003:
Jim
Take notice of that lower right corner of Rich's stainless where the Gorilla glue is. You will see holes where small sheet metal screws hold the SS ends to the body of the car. Don't pull anything loose. The curve cover pieces snap into place over the ends with a little massaging.
What Jay said. The corner pieces may need some careful massaging with pliers to tighten then up a bit, but they do just snap on as Jay said. When I did my back window, I had to do that to the two top pieces
Thanks Guys,
I understand how it goes over the two moldings at the ends but it appears there is also some kind of clip in the center that goes into the rubber molding that also holds it in place?
Not to my knowledge. If there is, I'm missing them. I'll check my manual...I believe there's a few pages on replacing/installing windshields and back glass.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-05-09 09:29
Not to my knowledge. If there is, I'm missing them. I'll check my manual...I believe there's a few pages on replacing/installing windshields and back glass.
Looked at mine again and from what little I can see by pushing the rubber molding back a little with a screwdriver it appears there are two on the tight side and only one on the loose side. Mine aren't in the best shape as someone has removed/installed them in the past. Maybe they added these clips? It seems like if there wasn't something in the center and only held by a snap fit on the ends the center would be floppy loose?
Update edit:
After finding a picture of the cross section in the manual I see that the corner molding has a lip that goes into the rubber molding and is not a clip. That appears to be my problem, the lip is no longer there or just a small piece on one end is still there. That must have rotted away sometime in the past :005: I can't see anyway to repair that problem and those corner moldings are probably impossible to find :005:
My bad..I misspoke...mine do have clips on them. Here's a pic, also pics of the windshield my wife and I installed this morning.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-05-09 16:48
My bad..I misspoke...mine do have clips on them. Here's a pic, also pics of the windshield my wife and I installed this morning.
HAH..... I told you that installing windshields is a walk in the park. Sometimes we have a tendency to worry too much about these things. Then we find out that the job is actually very simple after we think about it and actually do it. I'm very happy that you have your windshield in your car. You must be greatly relieved. Jay
Yes you did, and that was exactly why I gave it a shot doing it myself. The hardest part of the install was getting the seal and stainless in place on the windshield getting it ready. It actually took Connie and I less than 1/2 hr. to get it installed once I had everything ready. I still have to clean up the mess a bit, and install the screws and corner pieces, but as you said, it was alot of stressing for naught.
Several things I did that I think made the job easier and pretty much eliminated the risk of being messy enough to get on the headliner: I installed the seal to the glass with 3M butyl caulking (Bill recommended and my glass guy)and let it set for a few days before attempting to intall the stainless. The butyl never sets up hard, so that eliminates any time frame windows to worry about. The butyl cleans up easily..just remove excess with plastic scraper, and wipe with mineral spirits. I was having trouble getting the seal to stay in place in the corners, so I tried Gorilla Gel super glue. A few dots on the stainless, pull the rubber in place and hold it for about 10 seconds, and it stays put!
After getting the rope in the channel around the glass, I soaked the channel with Dupont Teflon liquid. This is the stuff Bill told me about for lubricating cables. Well, it works great on windshield lubing also and isn't near as messy as having to keep spraying a soap solution on the areas. The rope soaks up the excess fluid, and when you are actually pulling the seal over the flange, it squishes out the lubricant just where you need it. cleanup is easy, and the white film left just wipes clean.
Lastly, I did not want to install the assembly to the body dry, but at the same time, I was afraid of getting wet caulking on the headliner.... The 3M caulking strips solved that problem. soft enough to squish down and not prevent the seal from setting in place, but definitely not a gooey mess.
BTW, thanks again for your encouragement to do it myself..it really was a walk in the park.
a really late edit:.....don't use the Teflon as a lubricant. What was I thinking? It'll keep the sealant from adhering. I've got a small leak, suspect that's the cause.
Rich, thank you for the pictures of the corner piece with the clips, that now answers all my questions and confusion. The clip on one side is mostly rotted away from what I can see so the middle sort of flops out in the breeze :005: Jay informed me that those clips always rot away so you are lucky to have good ones.
Nice job on the windshield install and glad it went in without issues..
"Jay informed me that those clips always rot away so you are lucky to have good ones."
I wasn't aware they were an issue, but in hindsight, I'm glad I por-15'd the clips way back when.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-05-10 09:19
"Jay informed me that those clips always rot away so you are lucky to have good ones."
I wasn't aware they were an issue, but in hindsight, I'm glad I por-15'd the clips way back when.
That was a smart thing to do. I assume they are just sheet metal and not SS. I've never removed moldings, do the long pieces have some kind of lip or do they use clips also?
Sorry for hijacking your thread but after seeing your pictures of the windshield the gears in my head started grinding :003:
The 4 long pieces have a full length leg that is part of the stainless configuration. They cannot be removed or installed once the windshield is installed in the car...the glass, seal and trim except for the corner pieces install/remove on the car as an assembly. Only the 2 small center pieces just slide onto the longer pieces with no clips like the corner pieces.
Thanks Rich, that is what it thought the long pieces would be like. I would like a new windshield but I can live with the one I have for now, if I try to fix everything 100% I'll be to old to drive it by the time I'm done :003:
when you put the window in do you set the bottom in and work the window rubber from the sides to the top,or do you set in the top and work the bottom?
bottom first, then worked up the sides.
Funny....the "book" shows pulling the rope out from the top first. That is how my Edsel went in. Got around the coners on the bottom rear, couple of hard pushes on the lower portion of the windshield and it nearly popped into place. Just pulled the rest out, couple more shoves and was in place. Guess it don't much matter....
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2015-05-10 22:45
when you put the window in do you set the bottom in and work the window rubber from the sides to the top,or do you set in the top and work the bottom?
Gary
When I do a 57-58 windshield, I set the lower part of the rubber slot over the body opening and start at the bottom. Then I slowly pull the rope from the bottom and finish with the rope on top. The most important thing is to make sure that the windshield assembly is 100% dead center of the body opening. Windshields get cracked when they are not on center and people try to make corrections after it is almost in place. Jay
Exactly.
A few more updates....Having the windshield in place finally allowed me to play a bit with the wipers. I had an approximate idea of the wiper sweep, but just an eyeball until I could attach the arms and actually see it on the glass. My concern was because of the hard arm wiper system I made to replace the pulley and cable setup. First pic is of the nice shiney arms...love that shiney stuff. second pic is where I stopped the wipers pretty close to the end of the sweep. Another 1+ inch would be great, but I'm not planning on driving a whole lot in rain, so I'll call it good for now. I could remove everything and shorten the pivot point on the arms attached to the actual wiper pivot to gain some sweep, but I'm not sure if I'll bother.
Having the intermittent wipers is really cool, but I've only got about 1/2 of the different intermittent speeds it should have I think. I'm not sure if that's a problem with the control module or the multifunction switch on the Mustang steering column...the later I would guess. I did put in a new wiper motor when I did the project, but the module and multi-funtion switch are salvage yard items. I've got a spare control modul I pulled from a salvage yard, so I'll try that first. If nothing changes I'll order a new Multi function switch. I'm assuming here since some of the intermittent speeds work, that it is not a problem with the wiring harness I made for the wipers.
Next pics are of the cowl drain extension I made for the passenger side. The oem tube would be dumping water above where all my engine-to-computer wires go in, the copper pipes will dump it below that area now. I added two bands of rubber to the tube to keep it from banging around. The clamp keeps the weight of the copper off the rubber drain tube.
Rich
I really like your cowl drain setup. When I did my car I was not smart enough to do something like that. Hopefully Guenter in Austria sees these pictures.
Personally I don't worry too much about the windshield wipers on my old cars. They are only used to pass inspection. If I do get caught in the rain, I use rainex. But don't tell the inspection people . HAHA
I think the weight of the drain could cause issues with the rubber down the road..hopefully not. For that reason I'm not installing one on the drivers side. The only reason I did this one is because of the added wiring and openings on the passenger side panel that aren't on the driver's side. Had I thought about it before I finished my interior, I probably would have added some tubing directly to the cowl. Pat Fleishman said he does that using the panel adhesive. I looked at it from a "I can't weld the backside of that tube extension" mentality, never giving the panel bond a thought.
Rich, I'm gonna have to go back and analyze your whole build thread. One post and I have a few good pointers on what to do on mine. Looks like you have the wipers nailed down pretty good. Hope mine work out that well. I still have to modify my wiper pivots like you showed me, but there just isn't enough time in a day, and that can be done down the road a ways yet.
Keep posting and I'll keep reading. Thanks.
Rich, and Jay. That is pretty much how I plan to build the drain, except for I will be using plastic tubing. It is a great idea to get rid of the rust problem in the lower front fenders.
DJ..I would have used plastic, but I needed something to fit inside the rubber fitting, and the plastic stuff I found had very thick walls, so I opted for the thin wall copper. In hindsight, I could have kept costs and weight down by getting a 1 x 1/2 90* elbow and just used 1/2" pipe for the downspout.
JVO.....5240 posts..LOL,...you've got alot of reading to catch up on, and in the process you'll find out how little I knew when (and still) I started posting here. Couldn't have got where I'm at on the build without these guys. I don't really have a build thread as such, just alot of individuals, but thanks. Closest to a build thread I've got is the 4.6 being installed now thread.
Anybody have any good tips on how to find the oem mounting holes for windshield inside garnish rails after you've put in a new headliner any covered up the holes??
Rich put the side moulding in place and set the sun visor loosely in place. Slide the drivers side (or the pasenger side) piece in place. I used the smallest phillips head to poke around through the screw hole to find the first hole and the rest were easy after that.
On my 65 Bird the back window gave me fits. Ended up having to drill two noew holes as I could not find the originals.
Good luck, Bill
I have used an ice pick or an awl to locate holes for garnish mouldings
Rich, Been off the site awhile.... Man your doing some good work, it's looking good. Your going to have really nice piece of work.
Larry
Thanks Larry....I noticed you hadn't been here for 5 or 6 days...was ready to check on you. Thanks for the compliments..always appreciated.
BTW, I did a post on the Ford Blue oval you gave me in case you hadn't seen it..."How Cool is This". Hope it was ok to do that. Also did one on the Hamb's 52-59 social forumn I belong to.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/how-cool-is-this.974578/
rich...is your windshield new? if so who did you get it from. the reason I'm asking is that I had very bad luck with a windshield from classic city auto glass when I got one for my 61 pickup. I am really looking for another supplier but it looks like everyone seems to get their classic glass from the same source. kinda like carpenter rubber. By the way where did you come up with
the process for making your kick panels? very cleaver and if it's not a trade secret, could you kind of walk thru the process including the materials you use for the framework. your whole interior really looks professionally done.
The new glass was from auto city classic, and it fit like a glove. I'm very happy with it.
I've got a ball game starting in a little while, but I think I can get some build info on the panel posted. Can't remember where I came up with this idea, probably a little info from the 'net and some of my own concoctions(sp?). This was similar to how I built the two panels next to the back seats.
Some pics first, I think most of them are self explanatory. The white template I'm using was made for the passenger side, just reversed for the driver's side. That passenger side finished panel is just flat plywood coverd with foam and vinyl. (Jeff......notice the template is Canson board, lol, only the best for my car)
next four...Hardware cloth (chicken wire, ?)was wired to the steel frame, then fleece was sprayglued to that. Next was some heavy coats of spray rubber on the inside. let set overnight then por-15'd the outside surface really soaking into/ the fleece. This is adding rigidity, and also adheres averything together, because when I cleaned up the edges and backside, I ground the holding wires off so the backside periphery was nice and clean. The inside rubber spray won't soak thru the fleece, but after it set up a while, will stop the por-15 from just dripping on thru and making a huge mess. I let everything set for 2 or 3 days as I put pretty much everything on in one thick coat rather than building up thin coats. It actually took about 4 days for the rubber to set up completly, but the weather was cool. The rubber"shield" was wanted also because of all the wiring behind the panel. After everything set up I also quickly hit the por-15 with a 2" disc to smooth it out somewhat. That was followed with 1/4"foam(headliner actually), then the vinyl. Weldwood contact adhesive for Landau tops was used.
I did run out of por-15 before finishing, btw,so I used por patch (tube in photo) to finish it up.
and some more...
The framework was what I had laying around...1/8 x 3/4 and 1/4" round.
Time to watch my team get their butts kicked again.
Very clever idea. Looks great!
Rich...........very nice sir. Keep posting please, as I learn something new every time you do.
B.T.W. it was nice to meet you at the Pace Swap Meet, and put a name with a face.
John
I'm working on the windshield garnifh mouldings and I don't think I'm missing anything, but thought I'd ask...is there a mesh screen that goes behind the lower mouldings around the defrost ducts? I got to thinking about it because I didn't realize how highly visable it is, and I could have been a little neater back there. I may attempt to make a screen and paint it black like the outside cowl vent.
Nope....wide open and naked as a jay bird.....
Thought so, Bill, thanks. I may give a stab at making something. If my dash were painted it wouldn't be a problem, but being padded and vinyl covered it's not all that neat looking around the brackets.
Today I'll hopefully get the garnish rails finished up...they are vinyl covered as well, and get the sunvisors wired up (vanity mmirror lights)and mounted . I've got to make some type of visor supports off the mirror bracket...can't do that till the visors are mounted. I was anticipating a real fitment hassle with the garnish rails due to the 1/2 padding on the dash, and the mouldings covered, but it hasn't been a problem at all. The two pieces I mounted last night look real good...great to see that dash area finally being finished up.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-05-14 07:52
Thought so, Bill, thanks. I may give a stab at making something. If my dash were painted it wouldn't be a problem, but being padded and vinyl covered it's not all that neat looking around the brackets.
Today I'll hopefully get the garnish rails finished up...they are vinyl covered as well, and get the sunvisors wired up (vanity mmirror lights)and mounted . I've got to make some type of visor supports off the mirror bracket...can't do that till the visors are mounted. I was anticipating a real fitment hassle with the garnish rails due to the 1/2 padding on the dash, and the mouldings covered, but it hasn't been a problem at all. The two pieces I mounted last night look real good...great to see that dash area finally being finished up.
Rich........what sunvisors are you using with vanity lights? I've been think of doing the same, but have not done any research as to what will fit. What can you tell me about what you have used?
Thanks
John
I pulled some out of an 80's(?) Cadilac. I hopefully will have some installed pics tonight, and hoping they fit as well as I think. Because of the wiring, the Caddy's visor arm is hollow. I was able to merge the visor to the '57 bracket by some cutting and sliding the '57 arm inside the caddy's arm, then welding. They are easy to recover and refinish. No sewing involved due to the "clamshell" design. There will be a short run of the wiring exposed, but it shouldn't be that visible.
One side almost done. Still got to finish the wiring, and also hide the wiring. Man, what a pita finding the hole for the sunvisor bracket, even when I knew where they were, getting the screws to start was a real chore. I thought I was going to have to make something to support the ends of the visor, but once it was on the car, it became obvious I could just slip a ss fuel line clamp under the garnish rail. I've just got a portable 12v power source to the light,...I'll finish wiring after I get the second visor mounted.
The visor will not rotate to the side windows, btw.
speaking of windshield stuff....I had to pull a wiper arm off to make an adjustment on the knurled post. This worked out very well for getting behind the arm and not having to pry it off risking scratching the new pivot bezels or paint. It's just a cheapy HF 1/2 hose plier, and I did grind some thickness off the backside of the ring area. Neat thing is, when you pull up, it also depresses the little lever/retainer back there you have to pull up on.
BTW, in this photo you can see the "not too neat" area I was talking about that shows under the defroster garnish rail.
Rich, Your welcome, I was glad to be able to do it, I just now followed the link, that's a nice shot of the Ford logo.
I got my welding machine a couple of days ago. Now I some home work to do. ....
Larry
Rich, you are giving that old 57 quite a modern touch, but your work is just great ! I like how you are building everything from scratch like the kick panels and all your love for details. you are getting closer to finishing !
Thanks guys!! Larry...enjoy that welder..a combo mig and tig is perfect!!
You guys that have recently done your windshields are probably laughing your butts off because you already know what I just found out...the rear view mirror has got to go on FIRST!! Time for a nap...later I'll find out also if the larger-than-an-oem '57 mirror that I got a while back ('56 pickup?)is gonna work with the caddy visor. Stay tuned.
The hose pliers are a good idea, much better than trying to lever it off with a pair of screwdrivers and risking the paint!
Rich, for the mirror I just put a c'snk hole in a "modern" glue-on windshield mount, used the moulding screw to attach it and now I just keep trying differnt mirrors. Still looking for just the right one -wide with a good drop to the arm.
I installed the '56 pickup mirror last night. I'll get a pic later. To be honest, I can't even remember why I bought the one I did, as I'm sure '57 repops are available. May have been just the fact that it was a cheap price for a good quality ss mirror. Installation was easy, I just tack welded a 3/8-24 nut inside the '57 oem housing/mounting bracket, then repainted. Welding the nut inside was necessary to keep from having to remove the garnish mouldings and mirror bracket to remove the mirror. The '56 mirror has a smaller threaded post than the '57, so it just passed thru the bracket.
Forgot to post the pics of the mirror and visors. Pretty much done for now in this area. I'll make some sort of a better bracket to support the visors and get rid of the two fuel line clamps. I've still got to wire the visors, but I do have the wires routed down to under the dash.
I finally located a set of used Motorcraft coils for the cop conversion, so I'll be able to complete the conversion and get all that wiring redone before I put the front fenders on. Sounds odd, but I'm going to bolt on the hood before the fenders, at least temporarily, so I can get an idea of where my radiator is, and maybe install the hood pins. If I need to alter something to fit the radiator in under the hood, at least the fenders won't be in the way.
After I get the cop wiring redone, I need to figure some way of getting that firewall grommet with all the engine wires sealed off before I put the fenders on.
Looks great Rich!
Rich did you make that great looking roll pan your self? If you did. Did you make some extra's? I would like to do something similar. Thanks
Thanks guys!
Redshoes, yes I made it, but no extras. LOL..it took me a month of spare time to make this one. I kept the wooden buck I made to do it for a few years, but it eventually bowed and twisted so it got tossed. I think your the first one that's ever commented on it that I can remember, so thanks for that.... it was alot of work..mostly because it was my first ever ouside custom panel. I had made the inner wheelwell flanges/doglegs on both sides, but they didn't have to look as good as an outside panel.
One suggestion if you are going to do it, (and I know I'm biased,but...) most of the ones I've looked at just didn't look right because they started at the seam line under the tailights and went almost straight across. My panel actually is about 1/2" away from the rear fender at that seam line and wraps around blending in a few more inches later. The big diference is the bow in that back rollpan. Put a straight edge on your trunklid on the verticle and you'll see it's got alot more curvature than you would think. My rollpan comes pretty close to duplicating the trunk curvature. Some better pics than my avatar...first one is just after I sprayed the basecoat, and the second one shows the curvatues a little better.
I've been working on the electric trunk release. I was hoping to get everything to fit inside the trunk lid itself, but there is just not enough space in that area around/above the trunk latch. I ended up mounting the solenoid on the center trunk lid brace. I've got it hooked up mechanically, and put a temp. 12v power source on it to check out the action, and it works great. I'm in process of running the wiring up next to the rear seat. I think I'm going to also run a pull cable to a relatively accesible area in case the solenoid quits. I'm getting to old to crawl in the trunk thru the back seat to manually pull the latch, and besides, as hefty as the solenoid seems to be made, it is made in Taiwan (remember the other China?)
Where I'm mounting the switch is a pretty thick panel, so I went looking for a different momentary switch that would install there. Most switches, of course, are made to mount on a thin walled panel. I had pretty much given up on finding something when I spied an ignition starter push button switch. Has over an inch of threaded post, so perfect. A little overkill, for sure, but it's a momentary switch that can be mounted on a thick panel. Hopefully problem solved. I'll let you know how that works out.
The trunk release keeps blowing fuses. I narrowed the problem down to the mentioned switch I'm trying to use. Even with the solenoid disconnected, and just a test light plugged in, it blew the fuse on the first or second try. I'm sure there are no shorts anywhere, so finally I tried the switch that came with the kit and it worked no problem for a dozen or so tries. I can't use that switch because it won't mount on a thick panel, so I just picked up another one (same as first) to give it another shot. Man I hate dealing with made in China crap.
It was the switch. Replaced it for another of the same and everything works great. Spent an hour or so adjusting the trunk lid and latch...got it much closer, but still a ways to go. I don't have the seal on it yet. I'm guessing after the seal is installed, it will help with poping the trunk lid open enough to clear the latch after it's popped. If not I may have to install some type of a spring afair. I do have to reroute the electric wiring going to the right side tailight, as where I have it now was interfering with being able to position the catch for the latch. After the issue with the switch, it reinforced my idea of having a back up cable release that I can reach from the back seat without having to crawl into the trunk.
Some more time spent on trying to alighn the trunk lid. I'm running into problems similar to what Bob and a few others have talked about recently with the trunk lid...it's by no means going to be a perfect alignment. My biggest problem at this point is trying to get the front corners(near window) low enough. I think their at their lowest point right now, but still need to go down further...as I'm sitting here and resting/typing, I'm thinking I need to raise the rear corner (tailight area). I've already figured out it's in the triangulated bolt pattern on the hinge mount...not only an up and down adjustment, but it can be rotated as well...and of course everytime you adjust one area it goes out somewhere else. I've got to solicite an extra pair of hands before I can get it much better though.
Rich, It's not going to help you aligning your "already painted" deck lid, but at the Ford dealership I worked at every body man, had a selection of 2 by 4's and 4 by 4's. By bending, tweeking, and using a very heavy hammer and block of wood they would just massage the alignment fit on door's, hoods, and trunk lids into submission. It's sounds crude, and it really is, but a good body man can work wonders, and with a very few tools.
I did my doors a little with that method, even after paint, just have to be careful. Had I to do over again, I would have paid more attention to alignment before I took the car apart. I'm still trying to get the front corners of the trunk down flush with the surface of the back fender. That's the biggest problem. I may have to remove the trunk lid/hinges so I can elongate the slots in the mounting bracket. I can hardly wait til I start the front end, lol NOT!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-05-26 08:22
I did my doors a little with that method, even after paint, just have to be careful. Had I to do over again, I would have paid more attention to alignment before I took the car apart. I'm still trying to get the front corners of the trunk down flush with the surface of the back fender. That's the biggest problem. I may have to remove the trunk lid/hinges so I can elongate the slots in the mounting bracket. I can hardly wait til I start the front end, lol NOT!
Just a thought? Maybe you could accomplish the same result by "bowing up" the center of the trunk lid between the hinges, which would lower the corners? I had the same problem fitting the trunk lid on my '32 Roadster, before paint. Hard to explain, and harder to give good advice without seeing it in person.
Good luck, very nice car.
It's equally above all the way across..not much, maybe 1/8"-3/16, it's just frustrating because it looks so simple to adjust. I'm playing appliance repair man this morning...after 4 hours of working on our fairly new washing machine, I'm back to square one on that also. (won't drain). Oh well, at least the mailman just delivered my ebay bought set of used Ford motorcraft coils....they look almost new.
get a ohm meter and check the coils,make sure they are good.i checked 20 coils to get 10 good ones
Care to lead me thru that on how to do it...remember your talking to a novice electrical guy. I've got a multi meter..just haven't used it.
tomorrow after work i will try to take some pictures on how to do it
That would be awesome. I may go out of town for a day or two...trying to find a roadtrip location where it ain't raining!
Finally got my trunk adjusted. I decided just to get a little more agressive with it...you know, the Tool Time gorilla grunt thing....Anyway I'm happy where it's positioned now, I did get it down flush and centered..even played with a towel covered 2 x 4 to tweek it a bit. The gaps are centered, but not necessarily even due to differences in trunk opening compared to trunk lid. Nothing can be done about that short of reshapping the trunk periphery way back when I was doing body work...and that wasn't going to happen on this build.
Now I can finalize the trunk latch/release install, and move on to other stuff up front.
Got the trunk release solenoid finished up. I also added a manual cable I can reach from the back seat in case of dead battery, etc. Button is on the side panel behind driver's door. I am planning on upholstering the trunk if I live that long, so the solenoid wiring will be hid eventually. I got the coil covers polished up, and just started pulling the coil packs, etc. Hopefully will know in a short time if there is any issues there.
45 years ago on a Fairlane that was mine for a few months I removed the Ford crest in that rear seat panel trim piece,drilled a hole and mounted a black t-handled choke cable. Not very trick but being younger and much more limber could reach it from the driver seat and pop the trunk. Never bothered to disconnect any of the stock hardware. More of a novelty than anything else. As always your solution is definitely cleaner and well thought out.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Thanks, ZapAto. Since I removed the trunk key lock/Ford ensignia, I had to come up with something. I really didn't want to have to go behind the seat to reach a manual cable unless as a backup, so the wires were alot easier to run to where I could reach it from the interior.
I got the engine fired up with the cop's...no issues, runs just like before. Now a few days of cleaning things up in the engine compartment...removing unused brackets and clips, rerouting coil wiring, wrapping wires, etc.
LOL..in case anyone is wondering what's with the "ZapAto"....On the Hamb, and probably here alsoI had been misspelling Zap's name as Zapoto..One of the members, from Portugal, corrected me and said it was ZapAto.
Rich, the idea of a back-up on the trunk latch is brilliant. Nothing like having a backup plan in case something goes wrong. If you never need to use it then really nothing is lost. Can't put a price on peace of mind.
ZapAto - :unitedstates:
I got my cowl vent cover installed yesterday.....one of those 1 hour jobs that ends up taking all day. First, I had painted it 3+ years ago, but never color sanded it.....a pita on this piece not to buff thru. So, I got it sanded and buffed as much as I dared. Second, since my cowl is not being used for fresh air, I wanted to seal off the opening as much as posible and still have access to the wiper mechanism. I applied a rubber tape on the bottom side of the screen under the cover, and then repainted it so the sticky tape wouldn't be gathering dirt and dust (pic #1). The rubber tape I used is a 1/16 x 1" rubber tape with an extremely aggresive adhesive that fuses to itself. It's not coming off easily after it touches down, and certainly not intact. Lowes, 9.50 for a 10ft roll (pic #3). I also used it to wrap my wiring where the engine wires all came together on the side panel. Made sort of a rubber boot there with the stuff.
I couldn't find the rubber antisqueak seal I thought I bought for the cowl panel, but I'm glad I didn't because I ran across this seal I picked up in Phoenix last year @Socal on their clearance table. At the time, I thought it looked like it might come in handy, and it did...perfectly. It's a seal for a 49-51 wagon tailgate, lower seal. pn 8A-7943016. It fits perfectly, and I think looks much neater than the oem '57 rubber (pic #2).
Edit 6 years down the road:......sealing the vent is not a good idea. Engine heat will eventually build up the temperature inside the cowl, and with the sealed screen, it can't vent out, so the heat gets transferred to inside the cabin. Not good.
the more I read your posts the more I think you must have been a great artist in a past life. as always it continues to look well thought out and executed.
ZapAto - :unitedstates:
You're pretty creative. Some real nice stuff here. And I didn't notice it till you brought it up earlier, but I've been meaning to comment on your rear roll pan. That really looks good. I'm gonna have to make most of the back end on my Ranchero project, and just might take a few cues from yours.
"well thought out and executed."...well, thanks, but not always the case. Yesterday for example. Since I now have a windshield, I was fiddling with the wipers and washer nozzles a bit. Everything was working excellent until my driver's side wiper started losing some of it's sweep, but the passenger side was ok.(I've got a hard arm system I made up). After thinking it over, I pulled the vent cover off so I could have a look inside to see if what I suspected was the case, and it was. Back 2 or 3 years ago when I was designing/building the system, I did a small tack weld on the arm that attaches directly to the oem wiper pivot, not wanting to do a complete weld until the system was installed and checked out. Well, that idea was "well thought out", but unfortunatly not executed because I forgot about just the small tack weld and never completed a weld I could depend on. That tack weld broke as it was very small, and probably too cold of a weld for the thick plate. Anyway...no biggie...I pulled the component out and did a really good it-aint-coming-apart weld. Only problem there was I forgot one of the swivels attached to the arm had a nylon/plastic snap on fitting. You guessed it..it melted before I realized what was going on. Dumb...dumb...dumb, it only would have taken a minute to snap it off the metal ball post. Instead of that minute I got to drive to a u-pull-it yard and take apart a Mustang for another hard arm. Tommorrow I'll get that modified and try real hard not to take two steps backwards again.
Still fiddlin' with the wiper arms. I had commented in the past that the oem Mustang joints I had used were nice and quiet, but the heims joints weren't (I used both). That wasn't the case, I discovered yesterday morning I had an issue with the length of stroke on one or more of the arms that was causing a bind on the others, and that's where the noise was eminating from. After unsuccesfully trying to adjust, I finally realized the only way I was going to get this right was to start with the first arm and build/adjust stroke on each arm added from there. This involved relocating the pivot joints the arms. I've still got one arm to go, but I've got it to the point now where it is nice and quiet, smooth, no binding on anything. I think the binding I was having was also affecting the variable speed timing also, because now even the timing of the sweep intervals is much better.
Rich, a good friend and former co-worker of mine took almost 15 years to build an incredible 40 chevrolet sedan. I used to tell him it actually only took him 5 years to really build it. See he was never quite happy with most things he did first time around and would rework everything pretty much a couple of times. Both for mechanical or cosmetic reasons. And of course his vision changed on the build morphed a bit here and there. Most of us would have been happy with lots of the things he changed but they were not right for him. So when I say ''well thought out and executed'' have learned from the best that it may need several revisions. These are just the Rich Muise version of the factory ''service bulletins''.
Keep it up, you're almost there and soon you'll be telling us about fantastic road trips in your coupe.
ZapAto - :unitedstates:
Finally got everything right! The last arm turned out to be harder than I expected, because that arm can't be removed without first removing the other arms, so alot of in and outs today making suble tweeks before everything was right. Yeah...now I can button it up (although I won't be able to watch all those arms in motion any more. lol)
Moving on....My nephew and I got the hood mounted, mainly so I could check out the radiator clearance with it's forward positioning. Also, I've been waiting a few years to see what the hood with the Mustang scoop actually looked like sitting on the car. I like it alot, has a great look from the inside. Very subtle look with it's wide, low profile, but enough to let you know there may be something under that hood. I'm not sure if I can leave the hood in place while mounting the front fenders, but I'll give it a shot. The hood needs to be repainted, posibly the nose piece also, but I'm going to respray it on the car.
With a standard radiator cap, btw, I have about 1/4" of clearance where the hood is sitting now. Hopefully after alignment/adjustments it'll still clear.
The hydraulic lift mod on the hinges seems to be just about perfect. The hood seems very balanced with a minimal effort to close......and super quiet...ya can't hear a thing!!
Bill's fender mounting guide got me out in the garage to see if I could assemble it myself without scratching too much.
Question: re: leading edge of the fender beside and below the headlight.. I'm pretty sure from previous threads here, that the leading edge of the inner fender goes inside the outer fender, but what about the splash guard? does it go inside the fender as well, in other words, the edge of the splash guard is behind the fender's flanges so that the edge of the splash guard can't be seen from the front??
Fender sits on the splash guard.
Thanks...I had found an exploded view in the chassis manual, but it didn't show assembly position.Bill, been forgetting to ask...did you ever find your windshield clips?
Not looking real hard right now...."life" has once more gotten in the way...
My mentioning the chassis manual reminded me...I've got an illustration showing the clip and a part number if you need it...with a pn, you could call Antique auto supply in Arlington, tx.
That would be great Rich, thanks much.
What's the model no. of your Fairlane...they may differ.
Back to my project...I feel like I fell into a bucket of roses and came up smelling like S.... Not a good day, although not entirely bad. The fender(more aptly offender), lined up great to the door with almost no effort to do so. Gaps and profile are better than expected. The problems are at the front end. This fender had extensive rebuilding done..front cap, headlight surround, lower rear inner and outer. Apparently I got more distortion in the lower leading edge of the fender as that corner has pulled inwards about 1/2. I was having trouble getting the splash guard that mounts under the headlight behind the grille to mate to the fender profile. I had made those 2 guards from scratch, so my initial thought was they were not right, but to double check, I bolted on the long lower splash pan and realized it was the fender. Not sure if I can manipulate it without screwing up the body work and paint.
This is not entirely unexpected, I must admit. I had totally dismantled my car and rebuilt each piece one at a time...not really any way of fit checking. Some of the pieces had extensive rebuilding..even the leading edges of the inner wheel wells were replaced, the ends of the nose piece, and as I mentioned, hand forming the 2 splash panels. Before I started painting I had in the back of my mind I might want a ghost flame job anyway, so if I ended up reworking and repainting the nose of the car, I'd blend it all in with the flames.
A few other problems...my a/c condenser is mounted too low on the radiator, and is interfering with the (long)splash pan, as is the lower a/c line on the other side. Got to do mods to those two. My inner fender needs to be relocated a tad, I can't get the fender bolts in. I suspect that's a normal assembly thing...just no way to know exactly where the inner fender should mount until the fender is on.
Anyway, all of these things need to be corrected before I can finish alighning anything.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2015-06-16 22:33
Fender sits on the splash guard.
I just realized I may have misled with the question. I was refering to the two small splash guards that mount under the headlights and behind the grille.
Rich I messed up the answer....the splash pan goes under the hinge housing, behind the front bumper pan and over the lip of the fender. I will post a couple of pics from my Ranchero which has never been apart.
perfect, and as I suspected. I had made those pans from scratch, so couldn't be 100% sure of the fit, but it was no way close to working if they didn't go behind the fender.
Any chance you could post a pic of the fender where it sits on the long splash pan...almost like your avatar, but from higher up looking down....like in the first pic I'm posting. In my pic, the splash pan is way down in front, so it's not as bad as it looks. second pic shows the A/c line I need to move, and the ps cooler mounted to low. (I think I mispoke earlier and said the AC condenser was too low)
Bill, I need the model number from the Fairlane you need the clips for
Here is a picture of mine. Hope it helps. It is an old picture, my splash pan is off the car now. I am trying to align the radiator panel, the headlight panels, and the hood now. I feel your pain.....
That's what I needed, thanks Lynn. I think I have multiple issues here. I had welded the seam on the splashpan posibly causing it to pull inwards on the back end. Notice mine seems to have a curve to that surface, while yours looks straight matching the fender profile. I just got in from adjusting the inner fender, so now I've got those bolted together....one step at a time.
Rich...67B
I couldn't find a reference to 67B in the trim and sealant manual..checked the 1957ford website, none there either. I scanned and posted the only page that had a windshield trim clip, and it includes the Victoria Town Sedan...57B, so I'm assuming that may be it. I posted it in the diagrams board here. I think it's pn bac-6403178 retainer...3 req'd.
Town Victoria is it, yes three! Thanks, I'll give the a ring and see if they have them.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-06-18 10:12
Here is a picture of mine. Hope it helps. It is an old picture, my splash pan is off the car now. I am trying to align the radiator panel, the headlight panels, and the hood now. I feel your pain.....
Lynn....I've been fighting this all day..finally got the right fender adjusted pretty well. At least I thought so until I bolted on the long splash pan. The splash pan is out at least an inch beyond the fender. I thought I'd just pull the bottom of the fender out to meet it, but it's not budging. How is this posible, I thought. At this point I'm 98% convinced I have the leading edge of the inner fender well in the wrong position. I brought the subject up before and we discussed it at length, and everyone was of the concenses (sp) that that leading edge went inside the fender as the rest of the wheel well does. It is that nose that is preventing me from rolling out the bottom edge of the fender to meet the splash panel.
If you look at how that wheel well leading edge is formed, it has a relief notch on the top edge that would have no reason to be there except to allow that panel pass to the other side of the fender. It also had a bend originally that I straightened out to get it to go inside the fender.
Decision time....I think I'll move on to the other fender and try positioning that leading edge where I think it's suppose to be and see if it makes a difference before I undo the right fender. At his point I'm tempted to get out my cut off tool.
So, Lynn, where is your wheel well leading edge located....inside the fender, or inside the (radiator panel, nose, grille panel, whatever we call it).
If I remember correctly the nose panel has three captured nuts on the inside (side you can see with the hood open), the fender goes against it and the inner is in the wheel well against the fender. I can shoot a couple of pics tomorrow to be sure.
The leading edges of the inner fender are on the wheel side of the front of the headlight panels where they meet the radiator panel on my car. The headlight panels on my car are aftermarket and not well formed or installed, hence my project. I am working on the assumption that the fender line at the hood and the radiator panel joint should be in a straight line/same plane. That seems to be working at this point. I am actually increasing the spacing between the fenders at the front to allow the hood to fit between the fenders. My splash pan and radiator panel are original. I am increasing the fender gap at the front of the hood by maybe a 1/4 or so though. If you are using a stock grill you should fit that too before any repaint. mine is not close to the bottom of the headlight panels. I hope this makes sense and that I understood your question.....
Bill, I think pics were posted before showing the fender well inside the fender (behind the headlight). Lots can happen over 50+ years. I just don't think at this point that way of assembly is going to work on mine. That leading edge is also keeping the fender from raising up where it needs to be. The inner fender is as high as it can go where it's bolted to the core support, and the hinge is as low as it can go, but the hood is still higher. the fender hits that leading edge of the wheel well keeping it from raising up further.
Lynn..my headlight surround was replaced also, as well as the fender top cap, and the ends of the grille panel. The more I look at it, I don't think I have an issue there, and I should be able to get everything where it needs to be as long as the leading edge isn't inside the fender.
How does your fender/splash pan fit? I don't know id the headlight surround work was done after that pic you posted was taken. With your grille not fitting correctly, it leads me to believe you are having the same issue as me, in that you can't roll the fender out further at the bottom.
You said: "I am working on the assumption that the fender line at the hood and the radiator panel joint should be in a straight line/same plane." No, I don't think so. From front to back, the plane changes right at the leading edge of the hood. At the "radiator panel" it is straight back, but only for that 3 or 4 inches, then it angles off because the hood is wider at the back.
Rich, I have the hood hinges and the radiator support off my car and the hood is sitting on the rubber spacers on the fenders. I am gapping the hood on all sides first and then I will fit the radiator support and the hood hinges. My hinges were as low as they would go and the hood was high, but it was very tight between the fenders anyway in the front because the headlight panels were just not right. My splash panel fits very well and the lower part of my fenders are pretty flexible with the radiator deflector panels loose. My car was in an accident at some point too. The grill contour simply does not match the underside of the headlight panels. I am also fighting the "eyebrows", my car didn't have any. I put up a couple of pics that show what I am doing and dealing with. I will make the radiator support fit and lower the hood hinges to make the exterior look "correct" if I have too! I have a ways to go!
Sounds like similar problems..just different approaches to resolving the issues. Interesting your hood was also high with the hinges as low as they could go. If I can't raise my fenders to meet the hood profile (only anothe 3/16 or so at worst point) after I get that inner fender leading edge out of the way, then I'll need to figure something else. I don't want to lower the hood hinges any more because of radiator clearance.
Not sure how you're moving parts around with the core support out as that's the only thing the inner fenders mount to. I'm sure you've got something figured out.
I'm working with the idea that the fender spacing in front is fixed because of the radiator/grille panel and the back spacing is pretty well set due to lining up fender profile with the doors and cowl. I figured I'd just have to live with whatever hood gaps that gave me.
Found something to support my side of our discusion. I just remembered I had kept my old headlight surround hanging on my garage wall to remind me of what I started with. I got thinking if there were rings around the bolt holes from washers, that would mean the inner wheel well was not mounted there as that panel would have protected the headlight surround from damage from the washers. I went out and looked, and I have no question now that my car was assembled with the leading edge of the inner fender exiting the inside of the fender and going in behind the radiator/grille panel.
Also a pic of my present fender/splash pan non alignment.
My car had been rust repaired and repainted in '75, but I never found any evidence of an accident or disassembly.
This is really interesting stuff as I've just fitted my hood and am suffering similar problems....... If I don't leave the hood too high at the front it rubs the front panel as it opens forwards. I think half the problem revolves around everything on the front end being bolted together, 1/32" out in one place throws it 1/4" out elsewhere.
Fortunately my engine isn't installed yet so my 10 year old daughter sits in the engine bay undoing/doing up the hood hinge bolts as I push & pull it into place from above. It still isn't perfect, but as it's got to come off again to fit the engine I'll fine tune it later.
I bent back that leading edge enough so that I was able to get the bottom of the fender pulled out to match the spash pan. Then I went to a car show starting 2 blocks from the house and spent a few hours talking with friends. So, nap time then on to mounting some more pieces. Gary...you're correct...move something 1/16 and somwething else moves 1/4". I installed one of the hood's side bumpers, and if the bumper is made correctly (who knows??), it's telling me there will be at least a 1/4" gap between the hood and fenders. As easily as the hood can be moved, I think it is the Ford design for the bumpers to nest the hood down symetrically when it's closed.
I trial fitted everything before painting and the panel gaps were pretty good, strip it down, a few coats of paint later and you'd think I was trying to graft a Toyota front end onto it......
Rich and Lynn, If you both think that your hood hinges place the hood to high, take into consideration it is not only about moving the hinges down on the radiator support, but the relative movement of the bolts that hold the hood to the hinges, it will move the nose of the hood further down or up. What I mean is the relative position of the two bolts placed on the side of the hood. It's not only placing the hood back and forth ! when you shift the rear of that hinge piece down as much as it will go and at the same time move the area at the front bolt as high up as it will go, it will make the leading edge ( nose) of the hood come down further to the front panel. I hope you will understand my explanation, best go take a look at the car, when the hood is only slightly open and you can see these bolts. You will know what I mean.
Good point DJ, thanks...I guess I was thinking of just a back and forth movement, but there probably is enough slop in slots to make a difference, and I admit I wasn't paying enough attention to that. It looks like I'm going to have some big fitment issues with the panel over the grille. I did some repair work to it, but nothing that could have changed the profile of it, so it's probably in the headlight surround. Before I go any further trying to get the first fender better aligned, I'm going to get the left fender mounted. That fender did not have the headlight surround replaced, only patched in a few pieces with pieces cut off a new surround, so it should give me a better idea of what I'm working with overall.
DJ...you were right on! I looked at my hood at the mount area..touching at the back edge of the hinge and a 1/8" or better gap at the front edge..should correspond to a 1/4" or so by the time that telescopes to the front edge of the hood.
I left my fenders tight with very good gaps at the door and cowl. The distance between them at the cowl matches the hood. (The hood is too flat at the cowl though) but the distance between them at the radiator panel was almost 1/4" too tight. I am fixing that issue first by addressing the headlight panel problems. I get the up and down on the hinges affecting fore and aft that is a good point. My big issue now is that I am at the beach for a week! :003:
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-06-21 09:45
(The hood is too flat at the cowl though)
Did you have a new cowl rubber seal installed ? it will put a lot of pressure in the middle of the hood. maybe the hood latch is too tight ? does the hood rest on the rubber stops on the sides ? you would be amazed how easily the crown of the hood can be reshaped with a wooden block and a pair of helping hands.... :003:...might hurt a bit when the hood has fresh paint though.
Rich, glad that I could give you some fresh ideas for the trouble area. You'll see that it makes a big difference. the leading edge of the hood is quite a long distance from those hinge bolts and it does effect that gap a lot. take into consideration that the nose panel can be rotated quite some which will effect the gap in the middle of the hood. The header( nose) panel looks as if it was a very solid piece, but it can easily be twisted and there is the bracket holding it to the rad support ( in the middle) they all have elongated bolt holes.
you've got many ways of alignment on that frontend.
My hood is flatter than it should be. I figure I can flip it over block up the rear corners and bend it in the middle along the cowl line with a little body weight. That exercise is being contemplated but not finalized.
Back at it..for a day or two anyway. After some time away from it, got back to doing the final adjustment on the doors so I could move forward to the final fender adjustments. I had the doors pretty good, except I had too much lift at the door latches. When the doors were closed they were positioned close, but only because the latch was lifting them there. There should be less than a 1/16 lift and I had closer to a 1/4. After spending a few hours yesterday trying to lift the doors straight up on the hinges, I finally figured out I was trying to make that adjustment in the wrong place. Tried the correct way this morning (at the door bolts, not the jamb bolts) and it worked great except I lifted the door too high. Very very small adjustments seem to move the door too much. At least I now know where/how to move it the right way...just need to fiddle with it.
At any rate, if I'm now doing everything correctly, it appears a workable approach for the doors is tilts = undo one hinge at a time, height/lift undo both hinges. Use masking tape to locate where you are moving from or to so you don't lose your reference points.
Update...Finally got the driver's door and fender positioned correctly...at least as correct as it's gonna get. It took 5 or 6 tries at making small adjustments, but I finally got it. The door actually closes easier than it had been since the latch is not lifting as much. Now I can move on to the final frustrations of the front sheetmetal. I still need to do the same to the passenger door, but I'm going to wait until the front is assembled, as I have other projects with that door as well. My electric window on that side is binding at the top, the door seal is not installed, and the door panel has some repair work where I accidentally cut it with a utility knife.
That's good news Rich, in the end with mine I resorted to unbolting near enough everything from the windshield forward and armed with lengths of wood, chisels wrapped in masking tape and screw drivers I levered, pushed and pulled near enough every panel and the fit is better. Not perfect, but better. I'm leaving my gaps alone now to concentrate on the other bits, I'll go back to panel gaps in the winter months when it's too cold to do anything else!!!!
First, I need to elaborate on the comment I made that the door closes easier with the door and latch positioned correctly. For several years I had made comments about the door not closing because I thought the seal was too thick in places. Apparently the main cause of having to slam it was probably a combination of the latch and the seal, because now I just have to close it firmly..not slam.
Progress on the '57 has slowed to a crawl.....I'm back to working on the house again. Can't believe my wife let me go this long into the summer.Now that the rain or at least threat of rain has eased a bit, now all I have to worry about is the Texas heat. Got up into the high nineties today. Funny, my wife called at lunch and told me it was too hot outside, I should be working in the A/C'd garage!
My main problem (other than me) with the front end stuff I think I mentioned...the gap between the passenger fender and the nose piece. The driver's side was fine. I think this is the same problem Lynn is having. We talked about the surface on the side of the headlight surround that mates to the nose piece, and I said it angled off, which is correct, except my passenger side angled off more than twice the correct amount. I ended up with a 5/16 gap in the front.
The problem fender had the headlight surround completly replaced with an aftermarket (non EMS), and the one that mated well still has the oem surround. (I elected to patch that surround as the rust area was much smaller.)
I first though I'd "fix" it by altering the nose piece as it would be easier to modify and less risky (repainting the fender). I decided that wasn't the right way to do it, that I should just correct the part that isn't right. Yesterday I made a little "wedged extension" to weld on to the fender, and this afternoon while I was trying to get out of the afternoon heat, I got it welded on. I of course did a check fit after tacking it in place, and I believe I now have no gap there...or close enough. It killed me to grind off the paint from the nose of that fender. Hope I can blend in that tarnished silver! Pics to follow
OK...pics of the mess I got into. First pic...straightedge shows where headlight surround should be. Second pic is old flange cut off. I left the old corner radius there for stronger metal to weld to. New piece is laying o the splash pan..not trimmed yet.
Third pic is tacked and ready for a fit check.
Looks great Rich, wish I had the skills and the tools to do it that way!
Thanks, Lynn. No special tools to speak off...cut off tool, a mig, and a grinder.
inching along, one step at a time. Got the hood repainted..came out alright ecept for one fly! I also got the splash pan repainted and started installing it today. I've got a bit of "fitting" to do on that because my 2 inner splash shields (under the headlight), and the right headlight surround don't have holes. I made the 2 inner shields from scratch, and actually they have holes but they're off about 1/2 hole...so got some slotting to do. I do need to go back and respray the front right fender where I repaired the headlight surround. I shoulldn't have tried to do it at the same time as the hood and unnoticed sealer overspray ended up causing a blending problem.
I spent some more hours fiddling with hood and fender alignment, and I now have it pretty close. After a lot of back and forth with the hood, I realized I was working with a trapazoid instead of a rectangle concerning the fenders and nosepiece, so I moved the right fender and right side of the core support forward not quite 1/8" while the two were still bolted together. That helped quite a bit...the seams are not perfect by any means, but I'm sure they never were...even 55 years ago. My seam at the right fender/door were too close anyway.
Anyhow, most everything in the pics is either yet to be bolted down or still needs to be tweeked, but it's getting close.
The underside of the splash pan is after a cleanup coat of paint over already undercoated and painted
Nice job sir!
Thanks Bill. BTW, for Lynn and others who also may be fighting this front end assembly thing...if you need to move both the core support and fender forward as I had to, unbolt the fender at all firewall points leaving all other bolts along the inner wheelwell tight. Loosen the core support bolt and put a small machinist jack or similar between the core support and the frame's corner brace. I just jacked it out until the seam at the back of the fender was where I wanted it, tightened all the bolts and removed the little jack. That worked well after trying to just tug the assembly forward was a no go.
Rich, that silver looks great.. I can't wait to see it outside in the light..
Thanks James. I'm glad I made the decision to go with matching color on the splash pan...I just wasn't sure how 2 silvers would have worked out.
Last night I got the grille polished up, and today I por-15'd the backside of it. A few hours with a small brush, but it was already starting to get some surface rust on the backside. I'm gonna do the same with the bumper. I'm sure anxious to get that shiney stuff put on!
I've got to add some grounding wires tonight or tommorrow to the two new parking light assemblies, keeping consistant with my wiring the car as if it was a fiberglass car.
I've got to tweek one end of the nosepiece before I install the grille also.....man, assembling this front end has sure been time consuming.
Grille ready to be installed. Backside por-15'd, and ground wires added. The repop parking light assembly's wiring socket were not as tight as needed, so I added a loop of electrical wire just to keep the socket from pulling out. Grille is just setting in place...bolted in tommorrow.
Any "drive it around the block" date? Lookin' great!
I'm hoping some time next month to drive it out of the garage and up onto my driveway. I'll wait until the grille and bumper, and front wheels/tires are on. I just want to get it out so I can stand back and have a look at it....see if I have enough brakes for an around the block (no back brakes at all). I'm anxious also to check the stance, and give it a sponge bath. There won't be an around-the-block until I get some mufflers on! Cops are always in my neighborhood!
BTW, to get it out of the "garage", I have to move some stuff, take down a fence, and unbolt/remove the front of the shed...
First, I think it was Lynn awhile back mentioned his grille was not fitting correctly. Neither does mine, but I can/have to live with it. The problem, once again is with the replacement headlight surrounds. The shape of the circular area under the headlight in the center is too big, not allowing the grille to nest in there all the way. I've got gaps on both sides under the seam where the nose and surround meet. You can see it in the pics if you look. Short of modifying the grille, which I'm not going to do, at my stage of being painted and the grille rechromed, it's gonna have to be one of those "good enough"'s.
I had rebuilt both headlight assemblies a number of years ago, including repairing the bucket itself for major rust problems. The right headlight surround's opening was too small by a considerable amout, so I had to remove about 1/4" all the way around. Doing a local search for sheet metal clips small enough turned up ziltch, but I did find some nylon inserts that worked out great. I drilled the holes for them 9/32 and tapped them in, and used #8 ss sheetmetal screws. I'm going to figure something for disconnects behind the headlights. They'll be 6 wire to include the turn/park lights as well. Not sure if I'm going to go with a male/female connector behind the headlight or terminal strips on the inner fender.
Spent some time wrestling the bumper brackets off the original bumper. Got them all off but one bolt which will have to be done with the cut off tool. Took pics and id'd them as they came off so I wouldn't have to figure how and where they went back on.
Yep, my grill doesn't fit well at all under the headlight panels. They are missing a break where they join the fenders under the headlights. I am about to start on that project again. I bought a clip assortment on eBay for the headlight bucket, I repaired one bucket, one to go. I may try to improve the grill fit, not sure...
I had a number of holes I had to slot to get everything to bolt together.... expected that though since my inner splash panels were made from scratch and the right headlight surround, left headlight surround patch didn't have any holes. I had planned from the getgo to drill thru the components at assembly, and that's just what I did.
Great job Rich!!!!
looking great !
Sometime before today and this weekend I'm gonna get the car out of the garage and up on the driveway. I am really anxious to be able to stand back and get a look at it...imposible in a one car garage. I'm also needing to check the stance..something I can't do on a dirt floor, but it's been driving me nuts..just doesn't seem to be anywhere low enough in the front. I was surprised the engine didn't settle the car down lower than it did, but I figured it still needed the weight of all the sheetmetal. All that's on, but the car just doesn't seem to have settled with all that. Only the bumper left to go. I have the 2 1/2 dropped spindles and my tires are almost an inch smaller radius in the front, adding up to almost 3 1/2" rake. Yeah, I still have the old leaf springs in the back, and no shocks anywhere, but the way the car sits on the dirt floor appears to have a reverse rake!...not quite like Donnie's, but....
Hope the new springs I had put up front were the correct ones.
Rich
It will settle in more after you drive it a little. I cut the springs in my 58 and it was just the way I wanted it as long as it was sitting in the garage. The very first time that I drove it up the street to the parts store and came back , it was horribly low. Then I had to replace the springs again.
I'm not telling you this to discourage you because I know that you have a lot of work to do and don't need another job. Keep up the good work. Jay
Well, I got it up on the driveway, and it still has that gasser look. Donnie would be proud. I've still got one old and smaller tire on the back, which makes the car not sit level. The new passenger side rear tire is 3 1/2 larger diameter than the driver's side. Just for grins I jacked the low back side up the 1 3/4 and it pretty much leveled out. The springs will settle for sure, but.....with the car jacked up as mentioned, my rockers are within 1/4 of level where I should have about a 3" rake. I can't see the springs settling that much. The sway bar that Jim said he had trouble bottoming out is 11" from the concrete on mine as she sits. I'm about 95% convinced I got the wrong coil springs from Eaton 6 or 7 or 8 years ago. I'm gonna take some pics of the spindle and get Dave from drop n stop to look and see if everything there looks ok. Just eyeballing the top control arm, it only looks like less than an inch off the frame corner.
Sure was nice though driving the car out of the garage. I even drove it a block down the street. Have to do that quickly..no mufflers and it's not registered or inspected. I'll post some pics later...out in the sunshine!!
Congratulations! I always have felt like Dr Frankenstein..."IT'S ALIVE"! Really interesting about the lack of drop given the dropped spindles. It may be a combination of things that will work out though. I tend to agree with Jay.
I took it around the block....couldn't resist. Actually I wanted to kinda settle the front control arms in because, per Bill's advise, I had left the bushing loose until I had all the weight on the front end. Several issues came up in that .3 of a mile. My check engine light came on.I never did get a OBD I code reader, so I don't know what that was about, but later when I turned the car around, it didn't come on. The engine is running pretty rough...a far cry from the smooth as silk when I pulled it from the Mark VIII. May have something to do with the check engine light, or just the fact I don't have any exhaust beyond the downpipes. I did get to check out the temp gage for the first time...never got over 180ish after iddling for 1/2 hour.
The steering seems to be a little sticky...may be the loose front end components or the ujoints on the steering shaft. Also now that I can eyeball the front end a little better, the caster and camber are probably off quite a bit.
All in all, issues that may resolve themselves once the work is finished.
Make sure that you get the desired ride height sorted out "before" you set the caster/camber/toe adjustments.
Yeah, or I may elect to do the alignment twice. Not sure how many miles it'll take to settle the springs in, and tires aren't cheap either.
a few pics from today...
The above last pic....the upper control arm isn't quite as close to the frame as it look in the pic, but it is less than an inch. This is what makes me think I have the wrong springs.
I'm wondering how that compares to other member's cars.
a front shot...
going to guess your face is hurting from the frozen grin now that you drove it down the block and back.
ZapAto- :unitedstates:
and seeing you're online at 11:30 tells me you just can't fall asleep either,lol
almost forgot the car looks GREAT !
It looks so good outside !!!
The stance fits the car. I would drive it as it sits right now. it has the competion look. I'd forget about the front bumper and add som cromed T bars or a short stainless spreader bar/bumper.
these wheels are perfect for your car.
Your car is looking awesome! I still think it will settle quite a bit after driving it and aligning the front end. What Eaton springs did you get? My car doesn't have an engine in it as of now or I would send you pictures of my control arm position for reference.
Thanks guys
DJ I actually kinda like the look also, but then '57's make the best looking gassers, don't they?
Only problem with the competion look on my car...that's where it would stop...with the look.
If I ever decide to spend some big bucks on getting the 4.6 built up, I can always take the bumper off, :003:. My concern at this point with the stance is I'm not sure something is amiss. If it's that high because of the springs being wrong, then it's gotta be a harsh ride, right?
Lynn..when I ordered my springs from eaton and went thru all the question and answer stuff with them, they determined that my new drivetrain was within 60 lbs of the old 6 cyl manual. They took into account a/c, etc. I did not want a hard ride, so agreed with them that just a pair of oem spec 6 cyl springs would work just fine. My thought was if those springs didin't support the car adequatly I could always go to an assist with shocks. So, short answer..they are suppose to be oem spec 6 cyl. springs
Rich,
I would leave it as is for a while. It will settle some as you drive it. Did you tighten the a-arm bolts with weight on the suspension? That might make a difference. And as others have said, NICE lookin car!
I would try loosening/tightening the control arm bolts with weight on the suspension as well. It is hard for me to believe the springs are the issue unless you really had to fight them to get them in.
The control arm bolts were loosened before I installed any of the weight..engine/tranny, all the engine compartment stuff and were left loose right thru all the sheetmetal installation. That's one of the reasons I wanted to take it around the block...to help settle things in before I tightened the bolts.
Did I fight the springs getting them in? yes, but was it more than normal?...I don't know, like everything else it was a first for me.I don't remember if or how much longer the springs were over the old ones, but I would think 55 year old springs wouldn't be as long as their new exact replacements. Could be a wire dia. difference also. I did not keep the old springs to compare.
Up in the air or down in the weeds, it's shiny and in one piece so looks cool to me! I know from experience that a few miles under the belt can drop a rebuilt car quite a bit, my previous car sat too high so I changed the springs and within two weeks had to take them off again as it then dropped too much. I'd get it all finished and put a few miles on it before touching the springs.
Gotcha. My 6 cyl springs had been heated (3 coils were collapsed) and my car was almost on the suspension stops. I bought 2 Edsel springs (who knows the specs) on eBay, put 'em in and my car seemed level. I have changed springs, cut springs, put spacers in springs in an effort to raise and lower cars before, mostly to my chagrin the changes didn't go as planned. In almost every case the final results seem to take time to manifest themselves but they didn't always pan out the way I thought. I guess that is why I think this is fun? :003:
I may have to retract a statement I made earlier about my control arm bolts loosened before any weight was added. I definetly did loosen the upper control arms..not so sure I did the bottoms after thinking about it. I remember planning on loosening those when I pulled the car up on the driveway to install the motor, and I'll bet I never did. I'll try and get that checked out this weekend. Kinda thinking out loud here searching for reasons the suspension is sitting like there's no weight on it. Maybe bottom bolts tightened when the front was empty and new springs would be enough to hold it up...at least until a few good bumps in the road?? Your thoughts on this posibility??
I have seen that happen before. You can over stress the rubber as well (I think). My experience was on Datsuns but the bushing designs are similar. It may be an easy "fix". I also think front end alignment can affect initial suspension settling. These are gut feelings based on related experience.
I just got done fitting the nice shiney bumper on...love that shiney stuff. Have I mentioned that before?
On to suspension....my plan is to jack it up, let the bottom control arms loose, spray some lubricant on them, then go thru a round of jacking it up and letting the jack down quickly. Hopefull I can get the jack to drop quick enough to simulate some road bumps.
It does sit nice Rich. It's nice to finally see the car outside. For two years all I ever took were inside pics.
Looks good. Great to see it outside.
Hey Rich, your check engine light is probably because of no exhaust, no oxygen sensors connected. If there are no sensors hooked up, it will throw a code for that, plus, Lincolns had 4 O2 sensors, 2 at the exhaust manifolds and 2 downstream just before a crossover in the H pipe. Any one of those not hooked up will cause a code. Glad to see your car out of the garage. Looks great with those wheels and that color...wow.
Thanks, James. I've been getting alot of positive comments on the wheels.
All the times I started the engine, the only time the check engine light came on was that trip around the block...hasn't come on since. The Ron Francis kit only requires the front two O2 sensors, and they are in place, as is all the necessary electronics to make the oem computer function as it was meant to...without throwing codes. The O2 sensors are on the downpipes close to the exhaust manifolds. The exhaust is only in place to just after the H pipe.
I need to search for an OBDI code reader when I get some spare $. I bought a cheapie, but the pins in use within the connector are different than the pins in use on my harnes connector. I guess we all know from our daily drivers, even a loose gas cap can cause a check engine light to come on...It'll have to be a mystery until I can get a reader. OBDI's are hard to find....at least reasonably.
I checked all the control arm bolts yesterday, and I had one bolt that was still tight that I apparently missed loosening before I installed the engine..the rest I had loosened. I did the jacking up of the front off the ground and letting her drop about a dozen times yesterday..didn't seem to help much. It was dropping hard enough to bounce a little when it hit the concrete. I figure that has got to be a good simulation of driving.
I also jacked up each side under the control arm just to see how much the upper control arm moved away from the frame, and it was probably less than a half inch additional. It just appears the coils are too damn strong to compress with the '57's weight.
I couldn't see anything visually that looked wrong. The only thing modified on the suspension is the dropped spindles/disc brakes and the hd sway bar. I can't see any way the sway bar is interfering.
Rich, just for a point of reference I measured 2" gap between the upper A arm and the outer edge of the frame. Your car will settle after a while but I wouldn't expect more then an inch. P prefer mine being lower in the front and if that is what you are trying to achieve I'll bet they sent you the wrong springs. The car looks great but would looking better lower in the front :003:
Also....I've been buffing out the car to remove some overspray and 3 years of grime. With the Texas silt that's always blowing around, I have to keep hosing and sponging the car off before I start a section. The good news is I haven't detected any leaks. I do have to get up under the dash with flashlight after a hosing, just to make sure, but it's looking tight so far.
Jim...yep, agreed on everything. Thanks for checking your control arm placement. How is your car lowered? spring or spindles?
Rich I have to believe that the coils are the problem. The sway bar will have no effect on ride height. I also think the 60 lbs difference is way too small, with an aluminium block, aluminum heads and less weight in front of the axle center line that 4.6/AOD should be close to 100 + difference. The bumper should have helped a little.
A friend in TN put in the Areo springs (heaviest out there) and a 1" rubber spacer in and has the perfect stance (IMHO) with the stock 312 and a T-5. His car rides and drives perfect, has been back home twice (NH) and many rod runs. He is not a computer guy or he would be here with us. He has had his 57 since 1968 and just finished a complete black paint job.
When time comes to get it changed, I'd go with the Aerostar springs, but then with my dropped spindles, I'd probably end up too low as other guys have. I think first order of things is to figure out exactly what I have, then I can go from there. I'm going to go thru boxes of receipts and hopefully find an old invoice from Eaton's. Of course, that's no guarantee that what I got is actually what's on the invoice, but Eaton's is suppose to be a reliable company.
At any rate, I'm not sure I'm even up for a spring change (lol...I'd almost rather pull the engine), so I'll probably wait until the car has been driven a bit so I'll be 100% sure instead of 95% that they need changing, then have someone do it for me. Also, my 4th wheel won't be in for several months, so that's another factor I have to wait on.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-08-30 09:28
Jim...yep, agreed on everything. Thanks for checking your control arm placement. How is your car lowered? spring or spindles?
Rich, I'm using stock springs, thats why I gave the dimension for a reference. It sits lower due to the Granada spindles. I thought about Areostar springs when I rebuilt the front end but they would have lowered it too much in combination with the Granada spindles.
Rich...a real beauty! I hope you post a video with the motor runnin'!
I tried the front springs from Eaton for my wagon and it sat too high like yours.
I am using the stock spindles and went with the Aerostar springs and the height seems ideal! I have the Concours front sway bar and rear sway bar, too, and it handles nice to me for an old grocery-getter. The rear is stock ride height. I did buy new leaf springs, bushings from Eaton. The front tires are turned slight left in the close-up photo. Here is a video that shows the stance driving away and towards if you scan thru. I haven't had any issues with ground clearance into driveways nor speedbumps, but I enter cautiously for both...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj-5odSvX7E
I am using 205/60/15 tires in front and 205/65/15 in rear (hmmm, might be 215...I am not near the car right now).
Yep, Rob, your stance is where I want to be. Interesting your Eaton's were too high as well. Kinda confirms what has been said about there maybe being more than a 60 lb diference from the oem drivetrains. Kinda off subject, but what mufflers are you running?
I did find my invoice (from 2009) from Eaton's and gave them a call. He's a little unsure why it's as high as it is, but did give me a part number for a spring that's an inch shorter and a smaller wire size. He said that would drop the car 2" or more. Not going to do anything until I've got all 4 of the new tires on, have my rear springs replaced, and have driven it a few hundred miles...so, looking like next year before it gets resolved.
A pic of the front w/ bumper on, and a pic from the driver's seat. I love the look of the hood scoop from inside.
Rob...would you measure the distance from the bottom of your hd sway bar to the ground for me?? That'll confirm how much mine needs to drop. PM sent also. Thanks in advance
copied from a Hamb post I did this morning:
My conclusions to this point after all the input from the forums, talking to Eaton's, and reading Eatons technical info on their website:
1....Unless you've got an exact car your copying, a car should be 99% complete before judging/setting the final ride height. Mine is not. I need to get my rear end rebuilt and reinstalled with the new rear springs because that will affect front ride height. I've also got that one wheel/tire that is waiting for a backorder to come in so it can be replaced.
2.....each car differs on spring requirements based on the alterations that have been done to that car. What works in a '57 ford with a 302, or an oem 57 drivetrain is probably not going to work in my '57 with an aluminum block/heads 4.6 and alum. tranny, alum radiator, etc.....and that I believe is the main issue and where my problem lies. Aside from actual component weight comparisons, other things factor in such as how that weight is distributed. I suspect an inline 6 may have more weight forward of the axels than some v-8's....particularly my v-8 because it's wider than it is long. So my conclusion there is, it's not only the weight difference, but weight distribution of my drivetrain relative to the front "axel"
To further expand on that, talking oem '57 stuff here....Eaton's has one coil spring used on 6's and some v-8's depending on tranny and w or w/o A/C. They have 2 additional coil springs with different spring rates available to meet oem specs. One of those 2 additional coil springs has a lower spring rate than the one used on 6's and some v-8's. That's the one they originally sent me, so in fact, the set on my car actually has a lower spring rate than the one for the oem 6 cyl.
I wonder why I don't sleep well at night
Rich...
I will do the measurement when I get home on a few days. It's probably in the 4-6" range.
Those are Magnaflow XL Mufflers. I wish I could try the next quieter muffler which Magnaflow told me is their "Universal Muffler". These XL "multi-chamber" are a tad loud in the wagon cavern at acceleration, but I love the tone while idling, cruising and in the motor's powerband (3000-4500 rpm) on the freeway. I don't like the "thwappy" sound when off the line, but more of the engine tone. Sounds great north of 2500 rpm.
The one-man muffler shop I went to said he knew exactly what I wanted, so I just went with it. If I had the information I think I have now, I would go with their Universal muffler. Maybe the "acoustical packing" in these would mellow the tone a acceleration. Here is the part number for the Universal muffler I would be using (2.5")...
http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partnumber=11226
Best...
Rob
Got to jump in on this one. I have no idea what is going on with the front end on my car I also used granada spindles from stop em and drop em which should have dropped it two inches. I also installed new stock coils and took 1/2 coil off. The car sits at least 2 inches too high. It has been sitting on the springs for about two years. The ride height on the wagon is exactly what I am looking for. When you say aerostar spring are you referring to a brand name or the ford van? if so, do you how many inches of drop you got? and is there specific years that will fit. experimenting with front springs is a real pain because it is a big job every time. thanks for any info you can provide. Looking at this thing has been driving me crazy because I have no idea why it sits where it does.
I have cut coils off of springs to lower cars before to little effect. I came to understand that cutting a coil off of a spring INCREASES the spring rate (makes it stiffer) and that can offset/negate any physical shortening effect. This is because a coil spring is a torsion bar and the shorter it is the harder it is to twist. There are other factors that determine overall deflection of a spring, coil spacing, free length, wire diameter and end configuration..., so one can see cutting a spring to drop a car is not a sure thing depending.... Another thing; the lower control arm acts as a lever to compress the spring and as such pivot point locations, tire force location and direction come into play. A car with worn out bushings will sit lower, a car with large positive offset wheels will sit lower, etc. This isn't an easy call to me. All things equal a 2 1/2" dropped spindle will drop a car that much generally, but all things are not equal here. Weight on the front end!!! Just my input. Best course of action...let the "dust settle".
Doug...I know you just got your car back from the body shop...what stage of having all the parts installed is it in? Also I forgot what your drivetrain is.
Aerostar= the Ford van's. I've been trying to get a vintage just so I could check the specs, but with our dropped spindles, I've only heard of one guy(non-57) who didn't get too much drop combining the two, and I believe he put a 1" rubber spacer/cup on the top of the coil. I don't think aerostars are the way we need to go because of the dropped spindles.
What new springs did you put on? If they're Eaton's do you have a part number? Eaton's has 3 different springs available off the shelf that meet oem specs. The 6 cyl spings are surprisingly not the lowest rated of the three. Additionally, "after the dust has settled", he gave me the part number of a spring which should lower the car "at least" another two inches compared to the springs I have now.
I talked to the Eaton guy (Gary) again this morning just to confirm what was going around in my head last night. One of our discusions was about weight distribution, and even though they had the weight of the 4.6/dohc w/ 4r70w to compare to oem specs, he wasn't aware of the fact that since the 4.6 dohc is wider than it is long, it probably distributed more weight behind the "axel" centerline than most v-8's with a comparable weight. He commented he wished they had that info back when I ordered the springs in '09 as it would have made a difference. After our discusion he said he didn't think my car had the weight/weight distribution that the coils I have are rated for.
Doug..lot of redundant info, but this is the thread I've got going on the Hamb/52-59 social club. Dave from drop n stop is the "nascardave". with a few posts.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/dropped-spindles-but-wrong-stance.988952/#post-11144038
Rich It has been virtually assembled for over a year. more than enough time for the springs to settle. I like you bought the coils so long ago that I have no idea where they came from but if I had to guess, they probably came out of Dennis Carpenters catalog. The car had a big block in it when I bought it and I had paperwork for new coils when that engine was installed. I swapped that out for the 5.0L and an AOD. With stock spindles the car sat perfect, so i an really baffled as to why with a supposed 2 inch drop with granada spindles and 1/2 a coil out, the car sits higher than it did before with everything else being the same. I can have coil springs made, but at this point I wouldn't even know what to ask for.
Rob...would it be possible for you to post a measurement from the center of your spindle or center cap to the fender lip.
I think an old trick performed by low riders was to heat the coil springs while installed in the car. I am not sure what kind of ride it provided or if there was a negative effect on the spring itself but it seemed to work to lower a lot of cars. Possibly a set of well used springs might give you the desired height.
I'm also running the Concours sway bars on my Courier and from the concrete floor to bottem of swaybar =6" and from the center of the TorqueThrust center cap to the beginning of the fender lip{straight up} it's 13",I'm running 225x70x15 front tires! With the addition of the swaybars I'm going to have to add a set of performance shocks to the front,stock ones aren't cutting it. KID
When I bought my Del Rio I was lucky enough to run into Blair ( the guy who built it 2 decades ago) at Long Beach swap meet. the car has Granada spindles and slightly cut OEM coils and a 351W/C6. the block is very close to the firewall ( mounted via reversed 57 motor mounts). It handled very well, nice stance. not too low. no tire rubbing with 195/75-15.
Blair told me, that when he still had the 292 in the car with the same spring and suspension setup, the car handled badly, was bottoming out and generally misbehaving. he said that when he swaped to the 351 it felt like a new car and the spring rating was much better fit. so this goes to show how different weight and weight-distribution will affect the front suspension. I bet the Alu 4.6 is at least another 50pds lighter than the 351. I reckon the 351 is 70pds lighter then that old massive chunk of Y block iron. that is 120 pds difference, taking into consideration how the short Aluminium 4.6 will slip back to the firewall, it might subtract as much as 150-180 or more pds compared to a stock 6 cyl front suspension. that's half of a modern engine.
Blair told me he used Aerostar springs in his 56 2dr and everybody on the HAMB also said they were working very well. They are very reasonably priced, I have seen them as low as 70$ a pair. I think they might work very well on your 4.6 car, Rich. I'd give them a try and maybe play with rubber washers for the springs.
here's a good offer
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moog-CC850-Front-Coil-Spring-Set-fit-Ford-Aerostar-86-86-L6-2-8L-/311093252900?fits=Make%3AFord%7CModel%3AAerostar&hash=item486e9a5324&vxp=mtr#ht_1711wt_1238 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moog-CC850-Front-Coil-Spring-Set-fit-Ford-Aerostar-86-86-L6-2-8L-/311093252900?fits=Make%3AFord%7CModel%3AAerostar&hash=item486e9a5324&vxp=mtr#ht_1711wt_1238)
they also offer these lift/leveling kits ( for ride height, adjustment)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FRONT-LIFT-LEVELING-KIT-1-FORGED-ALUMINUM-COIL-SPRING-SPACERS-15-USA-/201418383898?fits=Make%3AFord%7CModel%3AAerostar&hash=item2ee578a21a&vxp=mtr#ht_847wt_1001 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FRONT-LIFT-LEVELING-KIT-1-FORGED-ALUMINUM-COIL-SPRING-SPACERS-15-USA-/201418383898?fits=Make%3AFord%7CModel%3AAerostar&hash=item2ee578a21a&vxp=mtr#ht_847wt_1001)
wow...lot of responses to an obvious common problem.
Doug....2 " isn't all that bad, I think you may gain 1/2 that when everything settles after at least 100 miles of driving. Having said that, one thing the Eaton tech info mentioned, was if a car settles more than 1/2" in a relatively short period of time after installation, then the spring is wrong.
Were the new springs put in prior to changing from the big block to the 5.0? I'm not sure what you were saying with the "had paperwork for new coils...". Were the control arm bolts tightened after all the weight was put on?
Bill...I know heating springs is/was common, but not anything I'd do to any car imho. Most everybody tells you if you do cut coils to cut them cold, as heat (torch) will destroy the springs. Makes sense to me...proper spring temper is derived from the correct heat treating.
Kid...How was your car lowered? My sway bar is about 9 1/4"!! About 2 1/2 higher than where I thought it would be. I assume since you didn't mention springs, your originals are still in place?
DJ.....couldn't have said it better. I think our main problem is all the modern drivetrains are so much lighter than the oem '57 stuff. That, combined with 58 year old worn out springs may result in an acceptable ride height, but as soon as you go to a new oem spec spring the cars raise way up. The Aerostars seem to be an acceptable solution for ride height, but not in combination with the Granada dropped spindles. The oem length on a '57 spring is 16",with a .70 wire size and I believe the Aerostars are 12 3/4 (not confirmed) with a .80 wire size. Given the cheap price of the Aerostars, it would be great to try them in my application since my engine seems to be lighter than most everyone elses., but, as Doug mentioned...that's a hell of a job for an old man.
To summarize for me.... I don't want old worn out springs on my car to satisfy the ride height. There has got to be (I hope) a safer and better performance solution that will work with the Granada dropped spindles. Right now, I'm leaning toward an Eaton spring that is non oem spec. For reference, my current Eaton MC1484 spring is 16" with a .70 wire, a spring rate of 432, and a load rate of 1720.He gave me a part number for a spring that is 15" with a wire size of .672. The spring rate is 346, and the load rate is 1440. He said it will provide a drop of at least 2" over the new ones I have now. That PN is Eaton MC1364. I wish I was in a position to try it now, but I'm not...gonna be a winter project.
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2015-09-02 03:40
When I bought my Del Rio I was lucky enough to run into Blair ( the guy who built it 2 decades ago) at Long Beach swap meet. the car has Granada spindles and slightly cut OEM coils and a 351W/C6. the block is very close to the firewall ( mounted via reversed 57 motor mounts). It handled very well, nice stance. not too low. no tire rubbing with 195/75-15.
Blair told me, that when he still had the 292 in the car with the same spring and suspension setup, the car handled badly, was bottoming out and generally misbehaving. he said that when he swaped to the 351 it felt like a new car and the spring rating was much better fit. so this goes to show how different weight and weight-distribution will affect the front suspension. I bet the Alu 4.6 is at least another 50pds lighter than the 351. I reckon the 351 is 70pds lighter then that old massive chunk of Y block iron. that is 120 pds difference, taking into consideration how the short Aluminium 4.6 will slip back to the firewall, it might subtract as much as 150-180 or more pds compared to a stock 6 cyl front suspension. that's half of a modern engine.
Blair told me he used Aerostar springs in his 56 2dr and everybody on the HAMB also said they were working very well. They are very reasonably priced, I have seen them as low as 70$ a pair. I think they might work very well on your 4.6 car, Rich. I'd give them a try and maybe play with rubber washers for the springs.
DJ, I have a question for you?
There's not many "car guys" I have known with the name Blair, actually only two in my many years.
Did you buy your Del Rio wagon from "Bare Foot" Blair Smith, in Orange County, CA very near Long Beach? If so, it's a very small car hobby, and car world for that matter. Bare Foot is a local painter that has done work for me on my trailer's, and a real character!
John,
100 % correct with Blair Smith ! :003:
I didn't buy the car directly from him, but from Jeff in Arizona. somwehow, anybody in the story of the wagon was aware of each other, even though it was sold on twice. but I met Blair by pure incidence ! I flew in from Europe to drive the 57 from Yuma Az to LA Cal and attended the Long Beach swap meet, when suddenly a guy with a hat approaches me and asks about the details. Sure enough it was Blair and he recognized his old car although being completely repainted in different colors, and sharing stories. He even had an old photo print from back in the 90s in his current daily driver car !!! that was more than 15 years after he built the car and 10 years after he sold it ! he gave the photo to me. He also pointed me out to his old binder with all the build specs and receipts and sure enough I got it from the seller later on.
If you happen to come across him at Donut Derelicts or LB swap meet, please tell him my greetings and that I am currently are restoring the car down to the last bolt.
Sorry Rich for hijacking your thread
That's ok DJ...I've been known to do that (on a daily basis it seems). You sure tore apart a great looking car.
Believe me Rich, it didn't look like in the ca. 1997 picture anymore. another owner had it parked in Newport Beach, just a few hundred yards from the Pacific Ocean, for 10 years. I have pictures of it parked at the same curbside all the time, thats why it developed heavy rust on the right side. and everywhere else. not talking of the twisted frame. the guy drove it into the ground. Blair was sad when he observed what happened to his beloved old ride. He told me the car didn't have any rust when he had it.
I have been to the coast in March and I have seen how daytime temperatures of 90 or more will drop to 55 in the night and all the salty water air will get condensed into heavy fog. Old cars don't like that... :002:
Quote from: KidKourier on 2015-09-02 00:30
I'm also running the Concours sway bars on my Courier and from the concrete floor to bottem of swaybar =6" and from the center of the TorqueThrust center cap to the beginning of the fender lip{straight up} it's 13",I'm running 225x70x15 front tires! With the addition of the swaybars I'm going to have to add a set of performance shocks to the front,stock ones aren't cutting it. KID
Wow! mine measures 15 1/2 spindle to fender lip so I need 2 inches for sure. The paperwork I referred to in my other post was from the build that was done in Calif. when the big block was installed. I assume they put heavier coils in to take care of the big block weight. but maybe not, there was no part number or supplier name in the notes, and the small block did not seem to affect ride height at all. I'm stumped! I can't mess with anything until the painter finishes up. I got chewed out for setting a plastic dust pan on the fender for about 30 seconds so I am not going anywhere near the thing till he is done. You don't have to yell at em twice.
Has anyone installed the aerostar springs with before and after ride height measurements?
I spent the day converting the front wall of my workshed from a section that unscrewed and lifted out to a double hinged door that folds like shutters. It was just too damn hard for an old man to be taking that wall down to get the car out. Now it'll be easy. I'm going to rig up something for the chain link fence also, so I can quickly swing it out of the way. Instead of a two hour project to move the car to the driveway, it'll take 5 minutes now. Of course that's if I
don't pile stuff in the way.
I did find a leak in one of my windows, btw. One of the back window lower corners is leaking into the trunk...gotta get that sealed up. I think I squished out too much sealant when I did the install. Speaking of washing the car, I forgot to do the engine compartment. I'll do that tommorrow before I put it back inside, and of course I'll have to wash it again also. One other thing I figured out from having it outside and washing it.....I've got to get some kinda drain going on the hood scoop. With it open (for now), and being in a cowl induction position, water gets downhill to the front of the scoop and has nowhere to go.
Sitting in the car this morning to back it back into the back yard (lotsa back's there!), I REALLY REALLY just wanted to pull it out onto the street and go for a long drive....I'm getting antsy!
Doug...my car measures 16 1/2 lip to wheel center, if I average the two. One small tire in the back has it sitting cockeyed..
My wagon measurements on the front with 1990 Aerostar springs (Moog part # CC850, under $100 at O'Reilly Auto, Napa or other auto parts stores)...
from ground to front Concours sway bar= 5 1/2"
Center cap of wheel to lip of fender wheel well= 12 3/4"
Ground to lip of fender wheel well= 24 1/4"
Ford 302 with aluminum heads, C4 trans, no a/c. STOCK SPINDLES. Front tires are 215/60/15, rear are 215/65/15. Stock type shocks, pretty cheap!
I have also attached photos of before and after the Aerostar springs, although I think the Aerostar springs have settled a little more after this photo. I can't find the height measurements with the Eaton springs, but the photos will show the results.
Here is the comprehensive thread that convinced me to try the Aerostar springs...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/cheap-and-great-alternative-coil-springs-49-thru-59-ford-and-merc.260795/
Hope this helps!
Rob
Rich....I went back and looked at the pictures of your car and you have the same problem i have plus an inch. I think I will give mine one more good going over to make sure nothing is hung up or out of sorts and then try the aerostar springs. They also list a spacer to raise it if it sits too low. I will document all the changes which will be a change for me since I always seem to forget to get the before measurements. I cannot live with a car that doesn't sit like I want so whatever needs to be done, will get done. I am also with you on replacing front coils. I would rather take a beating.
Great post Rob.. I feel much better about the spring chance. I think those springs will bring mine down to where yours is and that is just where I want it to be. Got to go to Spokane tomorrow to turn in my bumpers to the chrome shop but will be checking with the parts store on Friday.
Just be aware Rob has stock spindles, so yours may ultimatly drop 2" below where his after settling....if that happens you're gonna be looking for some really tall tires to keep it off the ground.
Great info, Rob...thanks a ton for doing all that measuring for us. See all the work it makes for ya when you have something others like?
My pleasure...I hope you all get your desired results!
Rob
Rob, what's your current measurement ground to lowest point of front fender?
Zap- :unitedstates:
Zap...
The lowest point on the front fender is right behind the front tire, forward of the door.
6 11/16"
The lowest part of the car is the front sway bar at 5 1/2".
Rob
Ordered my rear springs today...6 leaf. I talked to Tom at McVeigh's and if I heard him correcly (I have a hard time hearing certain voices on the phone), the 6 leaf should give about the same ride as the 4 leaf...however, there are other differences. The ride height will be approx. 1" greater than the 4 leaf spring, and it will have a greater load rating, so the car will have less tendencies for the tires to rub as the car won't lean as much in corners. Also, it will allow the axel to drop down another inch for tire removal clearance. I'm not sure about the extra inch of height, but I can always add lowering blocks. He also told me the 6 leaf springs are arched differently than the 4 leaf, which is the reason for the difference in ride height.
Got my front lights finished up on the wiring today..headlights and turn/park. Tonight after dinner I'll install the halogen headlight bulbs and see what I've got...or don't. Very slow on the wiring. I bought some 6 wire weathertight connectors, and they are a pain to get the terninals on.
:003: I got high beams, low beams,parking lights, turn signals, hazards, and all the corresponding dash indicator lights are functioning. Yeah!!! THANK YOU RON FRANCIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That finishes up the wiring except for hooking up the sunvisor lights at the panel, and rerouting/shortening the coil signal wires off the engine after I did the cop conversion.
I also checked on my 4th wheel that's been on backorder, and it is due in their warehouse in a week to 10 days, so looks like I should have a wheel waiting for me when I get back from Phoenix. I'll keep my fingers crossed in the meantime.
I think a change of plans. I found out my wife has been a little stressed with bills, so even though she had pulled some money out for me to get the rear end rebuilt and modified, I'm going to hold off for a while and instead have her pay off some of the stuff that's been building up. Happy wife, and all that, right? At any rate, the car was my daily driver for a year when I took it off the road, so the rear should be good for a few more miles. I'm thinking of just rebuilding the brakes, new bearings and seals, replacing the brake lines I had pulled off and running it like that for a while while everything else is getting broken in. The bonus to that is I can get it on the road alot sooner, and I had considered going that route anyway after I found out I could get my tires on/off without any hastle. Who knows...that extra time might let me find a differential that's already close to what I want.
Went to the DMV today. I found out in Texas inspections are not required for antique plates, just insurance (I'm waiting on some insurance quotes). So my plans are to register it as an antique so I can drive it legally to alignment and exhaust shops. After everything is done, I'll have it inspected and change the plates to classic car registration with no supposed driving restrictions. My friends mostly drive cars with the restrictive antique plates everywhere with no hassles from the police, but with my luck...
Sounds like a good plan. My projects slowed when my wife lost her job almost a year ago but she is working again. I think rear disc brakes are a cool thing but the reality is that they do a small part of the braking job anyway. Narrowing the rear for tire changing might be nice but it does seem expensive for what you get. Once you get to driving it for a while your priorities may change. Have fun! :003:
Rich I kinda agree with Lynn. A well balanced disc/drum will work for years, be safe and easy to maintain with over the counter parts. The 57 Ford rear drums can be updated to self adjusters, new cylinders and really good shoes for under $100. I forget what your ratio is, 3.56? Perfect. Also if the lube is up to snuff and none is running out and it is not making funny noises I do not think I would "fix" anything in the seal/bearing line.
IMHO rear disc are kinda like "it has a 9 inch" in every hot rod out there. Never bust an 8" or the newer 8.8" because you can't hook up hard enough with street tires. You'll most likely never get into a situation where having rear disc would be an advantage in normal to mildly hot street driving. Just seams like the hottest/newest thing to have with no real gains for the cost.
Different story if you are building for resale vice a keeper.
Bill...My whole thing all along has been to narrow and change to discs only for easier tire changes. If that is confirmed after settling everything in that I don't have a tire change issue, then I'll forgo the narrowing and the discs. Getting the case narrowed around Amarillo by anyone reliable has turned out to be a major pita. I still would like to get the trac loc down the road though.
My rear seal is leaking quite a bit....I'm surprised there's still stuff in there to leak out. I've got the new springs on order, so the rear will be just about out at that point, so I figure a good time to do the seal and the taller yoke that I need for driveshaft engagement. Also a good clean and paint of the case.
What kind of issues might I run into replacing that seal and yoke? I have read the yoke has to be torqued to preload something in the pinion gear assembly??
I'm surprised at the recommendation to not replace the bearings. The reason?
There is a crush sleeve between the inner and outer pinion bearings, as the pinion flange is torqued this sleeve is crushed to apply preload on the pinion bearings. Also the pinion seal for a 57 is getting hard to find and is pretty pricey. For the price of a seal and having someone properly adjust the preload, you can go to Pull A Part and get a complete later center section, just make sure that it has 28 spline axles. Plus the later carriers are stronger in the area of the pinion support bearing.
I agree with what Glen said, you just can't swap the yoke ( proper name is pinion flange ) yoke is the transmission end of the drive shaft :003:
I took one of my old 60's third members from a truck and had it rebuilt with new 3.89 gears, bearings and seal. Are you absolutely sure your third member is a 57? They were a one year only design with a large pinion seal.
Murphy's law I guess...nothing is ever easy. I have no reason to believe it's anything other than the original.
Plan B....refill the fluid after checking all the flange bolts to make sure nothing has just come lose, and test it out for a few hundred miles before I just rebuild or have modified as well.
One nice thing about the 57 housing even if it isn't the strongest is it has a drain plug, later models don't.
As I told my daughter one time when she asked if she should have the oil leak fixed in her 157K mile Escape.
How much is leaking?
Leaves a slightly larger then a quarter spot over night she says.
You can puy a butt load of oil for the first hour of labor to make the repair I tell her!!!!
Yep...lots of oil. BTW, if mine has a drain plug I haven't seen it yet. I'll check tommorrow.
I need to look for the breather bolt that I removed when I took off the old brake lines. Hope I still have it.
I got things in the works for insurance on the car...finally. Should have done that years ago, especially after the close call I had with the bad hail storm. Anyway, I went with Hagerty, and got all the forms filled out with the local agent, and he took a bunch of pics. Just for a comparative reference, I insured it for 45K (took a wild guess) with a 1K deductible and as a classic car with average 5K miles a year, travelers breakdown coverage, etc. $420. annual premium. a 500. deductible would have been 620.
On the 45K value...who the heck knows? It's not like Chevies where there are tons of previous sale records to compare. I'm too old to build another one, and 45K ain't gonna get a replacement built for it in a shop, not even close. The agent thinks I should have it appraised in case it needs to be higher.
When and if you get around to doing the rear end keep in mind that different years had different fill plug locations either on the third member or on the rear of the housing. With the right combination you can end up with no fill plug, ask me how I know :003: I made that mistake back in the 60's when I changed a third member for a different gear ratio :005:. Then had to pull an axle, jack the car up on one side and pour the oil down the axle tube...
I may be back to my plans of getting all the rear end mods done that I wanted. The local shop I had found that does big buck racing cars finally called with a price that's hard to ignore. I honestly thought he'd be on the high end of the bids I got, but at 1980., he's just a few hundred more than Phoenix Differentials, which was the lowest, and 200 less than the Dallas shop.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-09-25 10:18
I may be back to my plans of getting all the rear end mods done that I wanted. The local shop I had found that does big buck racing cars finally called with a price that's hard to ignore. I honestly thought he'd be on the high end of the bids I got, but at 1980., he's just a few hundred more than Phoenix Differentials, which was the lowest, and 200 less than the Dallas shop.
sheeeeet....I go around in more circles than a one legged turtle.
Rich.. looks awesome.. you gotta be proud.
I am, Jeff. Thanks!
Yesterday I pulled the car out of the dirt floor work area and laid down a 8ft x 8ft area with 2x6"s from my deck rebuild project this summer, and then 3/4 plywood on top of that. That'll give me a solid work area that I can secure the car up on jackstands and be able to use dollys and floorjacks to move the rear end out from under the car. Soaked all the nuts and bolts last night with penetrating oil....didn't seem to help much. Those spring u bolt nuts are breaker bar stubborn all the way. Also having a heck of a time with at least the first brake drum. It's not frozen , the brake shoes are hanging up on a ridge on the drum. Can't seem to loosen the brake adjuster enough to get past it. I may leave the drums on until I get the rear end out from under the car so I can see things better.
I did find the drain plug by the way, and my leak may just be because some of the nuts holding the pumkin on aren't even there, never mind maybe loose.
Another job I was overthinking about...pulling the rear turned out to be easier than I figured. Very easy job...for a younger man at least.
Still need to fight with the brake drums. They are not frozen, at least the first one, it's just that I haven't been able to back off the starwheel enough to let the pads get past the ridge that's probably worn into the drum....any suggestions?
Sometimes the center of the drum rust it's self to the axles, that may also be a problem. I can't recall on the 57 if they originally had one of those thin sheet metal lock nuts that held the drum to the axle, usually just one one stud, did you see one?
Keep working the star adjuster? Grind the tabs off of the pins, maybe then you could you pull the drum/shoes away from the
backing plate enough at the bottom to get to the star adjuster easier? I don't really know... just throwing out random ideas. I have often wondered what I would do if I couldn't get the star adjuster to turn enough.
Jim, you were right on...the center of the drum was rusted to the axel.
Lynn, I loosened the starwheel all the way, and actually was able to knock it off the brake pads so it wasn't even there, then I pryed the backing plate and drum apart so I could get to the edge of the brake pads...that's when I realized it wasn't the brake pads holding the drum on....'cause I could see the edge!
I had been soaking the lugs/center hub area for a few days with PB Blaster...onviously wasn't helping. I heated it up with a MAPP gas torch and poped it with a BFH...came right off. Hope the second one works as well.
Usually smacking it with the BFH right in the center of the axle works. Worst one I experienced a few years ago was on a friends Doge Ram and it was only 5 years old.
I didn't even have to heat the second one, came off pretty easily. Been cleaning 55 years of road grime with engine cleaner and a wire brush...actually found 2 plugs! On on the center of the case at the bottom as expected, but another larger one up on the side of the pumpkin. Given the size of it (3/4 dia or so), it may be an access hole for something?...or duh....maybe that's where you fill it?
That is where you fill it, as someone stated earlier, if you decide to go with a different carrier make sure it has this fill hole. One option to get around this is to weld a fill bung in the back of the housing. We do this on our race rear ends, just makes filling them easier.
Thanks Glen
Just a thought while talking about rear ends is those rubber insulator pads between the spring and axle housing and on the bottom between the spring and the plate ( I forgot the name of the part :005: ) I never did like that design. I was afraid to use replacement ones assuming they are Chinese crap rubber so I reused the originals.
I'm waiting for the springs to come in so I can make sure they're not included. There are new bushings included I know. Classic Auto in OK City sells the new insulator pads you are talking about, as well as new shackles.
I've got to do a search for a misplaced bolt...the one that hold the brake line tee fitting to the differential case...I believe it has to be a breather bolt??
I hope the front bushings are better quality then the ones I bought, they collapsed in six months. I bought some polyurethane ones I had to cut down to fit. The rear ones are holding up so far. I read somewhere that you aren't suppose to reuse the U bolts??? I always have and haven't experienced any problems.
Yes, thats a breather bolt...
My ubolts were fighting me trying to get them off, so I just cut them with the cut off tool...made quick work of it, and besides, I had new longer ones coming for the 6 leaf springs
what a fiasco!!!.....My springs were suppose to be delivered yesterday. They wern't, so I checked the tracking number last night to find out they had an attempted delivery at 9 yesterday, and the shipment was "refused by receiver". I was the only one here yesterday and never saw a ups truck, they obviously had gone to the wrong house. The address on the paper work is correct, I double checked. It took an hour to finally get thru to an actual person, they said "somebody will call by nine tomorrow morning". This morning I checked the tracking to find out at 7 it had been scanned and loaded on a truck headed to Oklahoma City, on it's way back to Michigan. Called again, they said somebody will be calling after 10am. At one o'clock, I finally gave up waiting and drove to the ups distribution center. By then theshipment had just been loaded on a truck for Ohio. The helpful guy here in town tried to intercept the transfer, but was told he couldn't, that it had to go all the way back to Michigan (all 81 lbs. of it), where they would reout it back to Amarillo for delivery on the 12th!! We'll be in Phoenix that week. Sheeeeeet
That would be enough to piss off the Pope :005: I'm pretty sure you can schedule a delivery time after you return from your trip.
It'll be delivered to my house, hopefully, while we're gone. We have house-sitters, or should I say pet sitters coming in while we're gone. The local ups dispatcher here is going to keep an eye open for it when it comes back and make sure it gets delivered correctly. I assured him if the local delivery driver tried to bring it back again that something was wrong.
Hopefully my backordered wheel will be here when we get back also.
OK...fun stuff....Over on the Hamb they've had this incredible Photoshop thread going for years. I had Moose look into my mind and see what I was visualizing as a finished product. Had him drop the front end, add rear/side exiting exhaust, and a purple ghost flame job. He even added the headlight rings that I don't have on yet. First pic is what I gave him to work with. I think I love it...may have to go from a thinking about it project (the flames) to a do it project.
Honest opinions appreciated guys...my other thoughts were alot of simple purple pinstriping.
Love it! Stance is perfect, flames could be just a touch more subtle.
Like my exhaust to just "peak" out from the rear/outer bottom of the quarter. As you sight the side of the car from ground level the tip is just barely visible. The photo of the 66 Ranchero (sold and now deceased) has no visible exhaust but they can be seen from a lower angle. Both sides exited at the rear/outer corner.
I agree with Bill, great stance, the flames are perfect, the exhaust needs to be an unseen turn down at the corner of each quarter panel.
Actually there are a few things I'd change on the flames. As you said Bill, a little more subtle, and I'd like the lick that ends 8" or so below the door lock to go back to above the rear wheel well. I'd also change the straight edge following the fender contour above the front wheel well to something curvy....That said, my eyes popped open when I first saw it. It was so close to what I had been thinking, especially when I realized I was going to have to repaint some of the front stuff, and wasn't sure if I could get it to blend. (I still need to redo the front fender near the hood corner, and I'm running out of left over paint).
Photoshoping is amazing...what a tool in the hands of the right person.
When you think of all the paint and graphics "fashions" that have come & gone over the years, the one that has always looked cool are flames. I love them (but I'm not keen on the "real effect" type), so I vote for the flames & the front end drop.
Love the flames, love the stance, not so keen on the exhaust (love the car though, amazing build)
I would not do the flames.Your car is beautiful as it is now.Less is more.
Quote from: Jeff Norwell on 2015-10-05 06:25
I would not do the flames.Your car is beautiful as it is now.Less is more.
totally agree on this, your car has such an elegant look right now that if anything I'd be adding just a very very very limited amount of pinstriping. but do drop the front end. with the exhaust sticking out as PS'ed you'd be setting off car alarms all over the place.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Add my vote to leave without the flames. The car looks great, I thing the grey is a good color for that car. Great job Rich.
Looking sharp Rich. I agree- drop the flames- much better without them.
Another no flames...The gray on your car looks so good, it doesn't really need anything else.
Agreed...no flames. Let it be a simple sleeper with attitude.
Best,
Rob
All the comments...for and against...greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
I was anxiously following online the delivery progress on my springs from McVeighs, and it looks like the second go-around was a success. My nephew called yesterday to tell me the stuff was delivered. The package was torn, but everything with the exception of possibly some of the bushings was there.
Got another call from my nephew...my fourth wheel that had been on backorder arrived today !!! yeah.. I hope they sent the right one, lol.
no flames Rich ! just drop the front an inch, but not too much. hopefully your new springs will get you where you want.
The new springs that were delivered are for the back. I needed those, shocks, and the missing tire/wheel to get the back in it's final resting spot so I could then address the front height issue.
Now with any luck I'll also have the rear end back from the shop before too long.
I've been extremly lazy the past few weeks, so haven't got much to update. I got my new rear springs painted, as well as the new u-bolts. I also picked up new rubber insulators and shackles today. They only had two metal insulator retainers, so got those, but I'll have to order two more from concorse.
I got a call from the shop modifying my rear end...he got it narrowed and ordered the axels today, so hopefully by the end of next week it'll be ready. He was just calling me to update it's progress...which was nice.
I don't ever remember anybody calling me to give an unsolicited update....maybe there is hope after all! :003:
I'm still waiting for my differential to be finished. I did get two more isolator retainers from Concours for the springs. Everything with the springs has been replaced with new now except for the lower spring/shockmount plates, which I need to get sandblasted and painted.
I ordered two Magnaflow mufflers yesterday...pn11266...straight through series. I hope these are what I'm looking for! They're 4x9x18 offset/offset.
When I haven't been too lazy, I've been cleaning up/touching up the underside a bit where I got too messy with overspray from painting the body.
My insurance with Grundy is finalized now, and I registered the car. In Texas, the Antique plates I got do not require an inspection for the vehicle. After my car has made the rounds of any alignments shops, exhaust, etc. I'll have it inspected and change to unrestricted classic plates. I also applied for a Texas title, since the one I was issued years ago was Colorado. It'll make things easier on my wife if anything happens to me, or I sell the car. When the Texas title comes,it will have a note on it stating that the vin number has to be verified. This is normally done at the same time as the safety inspection, but since I'm getting the antique plates for the time being with no inspection, I get the Vin verification notice on the title.
Funny....My wife bought a '15 Honda CR-V this week...when I called USAA to get things changed, I asked if there was any reason they had to be aware of any vehicle I owned that was insured thru another company. That's when I found out USAA now insures classic cars!!! They never did before, Next year I'll check with them before renuing with Grundy. I've been with USAA since '70 or '71.
That is great news, did not hear USAA now does classics! I too will be checking with them. Been with them since 93, was with State Farm prior to that because they also did my 36.
USAA has a company they go thru, it's not USAA. American something or other. Probably better that way if they work like a classic car insurance co. should instead of a traditional thinking company....agreed value vs. stated value, etc.
My differential is suppose to be ready tommorrow...I'm hoping the estimate wasn't too far off. Like I told him, I wasn't expecting any big surprises cost wise since we literally were replacing/addressing everything anyways. Not like he coulda found other stuff that needed doing.
I picked up my differential this morning. I'm really happy with it, and he even painted it for me. I did have it cleaned off pretty much and ready for paint, figured I'd do it after welding was done, but now I won't have to. Final cost was exactly as estimated, 2k. I'm happy with that also. Flange to flange is now 56". I do need to double check the flange offset, but should be and looks like 2 1/2". The taller yoke looks to be exactly what I needed for ideal driveshaft spline engagement. I also need to check flange bolt pattern to confirm the old style big bearing pattern as planned.
It now has 31 spline axles, a Yukon locker,new 3.50 gears, new seals, bearings. He replaced all the t-bolts and studs.
Now I've got to go muscle it out of my wagon.
Tommorrow hopefully I'll get that differential put back in. I checked everything I mentioned above, and it's all as it was suppose to be. As George use to say..."I love it when a plan comes together". :003:
I got some of the area back there is all touched up from overspray, etc, the leaf springs are front mounted, and I picked up a new ujoint to hook up to the new (different joint size) yoke. This time it was easier. A stock '95 Lincoln ujoint was only needing 2 caps 1 1/8" dia to replace the oem 1 1/16...and I already had those new caps on a new unused joint sitting on my shelves. The Lincoln leg length was the same as the new yoke.
The differential is in. Really was a lot less trouble than I thought it would be...other than getting all the way down to the garage floor and back up numerous times. I still have to go back and tighten all the spring's bolts.
I pulled the driveshaft and got the new u-joint installed. The taller yoke I had installed on the differential worked out perfectly. After the ujoint is pulled from it's "nest" and the driveshaft is pushed forward all the way, I have less than 3/8 clearance to let the shaft down.
With the taller yoke having a longer and larger ujoint leg than the oem '57, all I had to do was get a stock '95 Mark VIII (donor car) ujoint and change one set of caps to 1 1/8" dia.
I stopped by the local custom exhaust shop and had them make me up two 26" pipes with a female bell flare on one end to mate up with the H-pipe. That'll get the magnaflows back behind the footwell area...at least for now. I may try and throw those on tommorrow just to hear them!!
I wished I had the rear brakes at this time so I could figure the e-brake cable routing first, then the exhaust around that.
Rich my mufflers are offset entry and centered exit. If I remember correctly you are using the stock emergency brake levers and cable to the crossmember. My pipes are routed up tight against the floor (1 - 1 1/2") down the edge of the tunnel. The stock cables from the lever to the brackets on the frame just touch the bottom of the pipes. Just a little tweek will get them off the pipe. The floor pan support was the tightest area, plenty of room in front of it and behind. I will post a couple of pics this afternoon of the routing and the hanger.
Yes, everything stock with the ebrake cables. I'll keep an eye open for those pics, Bill...thanks.
Yes, btw, I've already noticed the floor support under the footwell.
Here ya go, hope they are of some help!
Thanks for posting those, Bill I can see where keeping the pipes tucked in close to the driveshaft will help clear the e brake cables. Not sure if I can do that because of the fairly wide H pipe I've got, but I'll have a look at it. I got thinking this morning (shouldn't do that, I know) even though I don't have the back brakes yet, I do have the old back end cables that I can run thru the frame brackets in front of each wheel, and that should be all I need.
Some pics...love that shiney new stuff
That installation really looks first rate! Im like you, I love bolting in new/fresh parts knowing that for the most part, that is the last time I will have to touch them.
That looks great Rich, I bet you must be getting excited about being so close to the "end"!!!
Quote from: 57 imposter on 2015-11-12 12:57
I love bolting in new/fresh parts knowing that for the most part, that is the last time I will have to touch them.
absolutely true! I just love that. Things are looking great Rich !
Rich - is it my imagination or is the right side inboard U bolt slightly out of alignment?
I noticed that also....on both sides actually. I think it's the wide angle setting on the camera lens kinda tipping things, but I'll make sure. I'm hoping to use a friend's lift next week so I can check out a bunch of things under there. It's been a real pain trying to crawl under the car to get things like that done...gettin' old!
I actually got it out this afternoon and drove around the neighborhood for an hour.
No back brakes.....which wasn't a problem. The car stopped quickly and straight doing a few hard brake tests.
No shocks.....well, I was bouncing up and down quite a bit.
Mufflers sorta in place... back end of the mufflers is held up with wires. I think they're too quiet outside and too loud inside, but right now it's just the mufflers ending in front of the axle...no pipes after that. I'm sure the inside noise will diminish quite a bit after everything is routed out to the back.
Steering wasn't all that smooth, but I'm going to bring it to a local alignment shop here in town. The guy is an old school alignment guru...does all the hot roders and body shops in town.
I'm probably going to have it alighned twice, because I want to put a few hundred miles on it before I change the front coils. He's going to go thru and set the rack correctly as well as the normal wheel alignment.I'm still not sure I got all the air out of the PS lines, so that could be contributing to the "not-to-smooth", but the gm rack is suppose to be self bleeeding, so that issue should improve if it's there.
Really lookin good! Very nice work! When you get the rest of the pipes on it will make all the difference in the world with inside and outside sounds!
Rich...
I would really like to see/hear those mufflers when you get the pipes completed! I have Magnflow XL mufflers that are a chambered turbo muffler. I am leaning towards changing to the 11266 that you have to quiet it down a tad and get rid of the "thwapping" if possible.
A reminder of what mine sounds like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj-5odSvX7E
Looking forward to video!
Rob
Now that your car is on its wheels and the body has settled, you might want to tweak the steering shaft support bearing.
Something to definetly keep in mind if the alighnment/rack adjustment doesn't smooth it out. Thanks for the reminder.
Drove it some more today, definetly need some shocks and exhaust and alighnment before I put too many more miles on it. With the noise/banging around of the wired on mufflers and all the bouncing up and down, it's kinda hard figuring out what needs fine tuning/tweeking, lol. I'm sure getting a lot of looks though...kinda neat. This afternoon I passed a friend going the other way in his 4.6 powered '56 'Bird. He waved...but I'm not sure he knew who he was waving at. He hasn't seen my car since before glass, front end, etc.
Brought the car over to a lube shop to get the ball joints, ujoints, etc lubed. Everyone of the grease monkeys there stopped and came over for a look. Not one of them had a clue what it was, they were all guessing it must be some Chevy.
I was stopped at a light, several years ago, in my 50 ford club coupe when a car pulled up next to me with people in it not all that much younger than me and asked "is that a Hudson?" It which I said "yes it is" Everyone drove off happy.
Got the car tucked back in the garage Tuesday, just in time for today's ice storm. After repairing a leaky brake fitting, and rebleeding the front brakes, I took it out for a few runs around the neighborhood. The engine seems to run smoother everytime I start it up...really happy with that now. No issues with bleeding this time, and the car actually stops much better than it did.
After many hours on the 'net trying to figure out what brake kit to order for the back, I finally found what I wanted. I liked the kit Bob/57AGIN put on the back of his with the '88 T-Bird calipers. His kit was from ABS, and runs 540. + delivery. I finally found a Summit Racing kit that uses the same caliper, has drilled rotors, etc. On sale for 432. w/ free shipping. I ordered the kit this morning. Like Bob said...nice to keep it all Ford.
For others interested, Summit has 3 kits available for the 9" rears..... for the small bearing, large old w/31 spline axels(?), and large new style.....that all use the Ford T-Bird caliper.
I'll of course let you guys know how the assembly goes.
The pn for the Summit disc kit is bk-1327-99904, btw. That's the # for the big bearing, old style bolt pattern. The info says it only fits 31 spline axels...first time I've seen a axle spline requirement on a disc brake kit...don't know what that's about, but mine are now 31 spline anyways.The other two kits are BK1326-99904 and BK1328-99904.
I also ordered my shocks today..front KYB's KG4515 and rear Monroe31125. Total for the 4 shocks, w/ shipping is 106. from Rockauto. After road testing the shocks to insure they fit my application, I'll search for an upgraded shock to replace the rear Monroes with the same or similar dimensions.
My modified rear end....in researching disc brake kits, I've learned that the offsets you normally see referenced as requirements, those being 2.36 to 2.50, are usually paired up to a specific bolt pattern. The 2.36 dimension is normally paired to the old style big bearing, and the 2.50 dimension is normally paired to the new (Torino) style. I'm not sure how those offsets are arrived at, but mine is "mismatched" for lack of a better term. My old style has the 2.5 offset. Some brake kits, that wouldn't matter as spacers are supplied to adapt/shim thru a range. Other kits, like the one I just ordered, are made for a specific offset, or at least have only the spacers for that one offset.. I"m going to call the shop that did my rear end and find out what the deal is on mine, and if it can be changed. I wouldn't bother with doing that, and probably only need different spacers, but I've also found out the registration hub on my axles is a larger dia than any rotors or drums have (3.060). I suspect that happened because the shop that did the work is more racing oriented, and maybe the high dollar racing brakes are a different hub range than what street rods are normally found with. So, long story short, I could have the rotors bored out to fit, but that would have to be done every time the rotors are changed, so I'm thinking I'll have him turn the hub to match the rotors, and maybe change the offset to 2.36 at the same time?? The offset may just be the result of additional/thicker spacers??
I'll call him on Monday and let you guys know what I find out about that.
Like alot of forum members...it's cold and icy here today..lots of accidents. We're just stayin' inside today....no black friday shopping.
I've had guys ask how close I am to finishing up...well, to get to drive it normally...
1. install rear brakes and e-brake
2. install shocks
3. alignment shop
4. A/C shop to charge and check out system
5. exhaust shop
Hopefully next week the roads will clear and I can drive it to the alignment shop. Terry is an old school alignment guy, and aside from alignment, is going to check out everything underneath for me to make sure everything looks ok and is tightened down!
A/C shop...yeah, I know it's winter, but I want to make sure that compressor has the proper amount of oil when charged even though it hasn't been turned on. At least the shop probably won't be busy. The A/C shop I use is owned by a father/son team, both hotroders.
Exhaust shop will have to wait for another payday..or early xmas gift from the wife, lol. I thought about rear/side exits behind the wheels, but I'll probably go straight back and use oval tips.
Anyway, that's the short list to get to drive it!! I've still got lot's of unfinished stuff like passenger door and trunk seals, etc. but that kinda stuff won't keep it off the road. Now, if the winter isn't as bad as predicted...
Rich glad you got it moved back under cover! That light you're seeing at the end of the tunnel is NOT an on coming train....:<).....keep plugging awayat it!
Getting that close you must be getting anxious. Did you resolve the problem with the front springs or did I miss a post?
Yep, glad it's back in my shed. Feeling much better about everything with the car after my last trips around the neighborhood. Even the steering felt better after snugging up some of the steering links, and as I said, the engine is running so much smoother..not surging up and down on idle like it was doing.
Jim...you didn't miss anything, just put it on the back burner as the ride height wasn't affecting being able to drive it. I do want to drive it a few hundred miles to let everything with the suspension settle in so I know exactly what I've got....only want to do this twice. I know I'll have to have the alignment tweeked after I change the springs to whatever I need, but that's ok.
I'm hoping to get the garage warmed up enough today to work out there a little later. The car really needs a good cleaning after sitting outside in the dust/rain for a week. Besides, I'm going stircrazy sitting in the house..everything is covered with ice outside..watching cars slide all over, so no way we're going to leave the house for another day or two. We're hoping it warms up enough tommorrow for the roads to clear...don't want my wife driving 28 miles to work Monday on icy roads at 5:30 am.
BTW, the Momnoe shock number I posted above are the '55 shocks Jim Nolan figured out gave us more tire changing room.
OK, good I have been trying to keep up. I;ll have to do some work on my front end again in the future. With these damn Granada spindles and stock springs I couldn't get the exact alignment I wanted on one side :005:. I read other post about the problem after the fact and when I already had it together, but it's still driveable, I've got 5000 miles on it now, it just bugs me..
That's the first I remember reading about granada spindles not allowing alignment...maybe because I'm paying more attention now that I'm at that point..or soon anyways. Were you doing your own alignment, or at a shop, and what was the problem?
Since I know ZERO about alignment, I figured I'd find an old school guy and just let him have at it. I assume the guy I found will know what it should be..he's got a super reputation around town.
There have been a few people that have run into this same problem, on the passenger side I can't get the camber I want. With no shims the best I can get is 0, I would prefer it to be -1.5/2. I read someone that had this problem had to mill some material off of the upper control arm surface were the sims go. Of course every car will be different, the tolerances in parts and assembly wasn't great back in 57.
Good you found an old guy mechanic, he will probably have a good camber/caster gauge like the one we used. I've known many people here who have had nothing but bad luck with the electronic systems the these new "technicians" use. ( read kids that don't have a clue )
Terry uses both...he's got all the computerized stuff, but the old school knowhow to back it up when needed. I was at the shop that did my rear end mods this morning, and found out he also uses Terry for all his projects. "he won't dissapoint, and works too cheap" Colby told me.
Anyway, alignment and cross checking everything is rescheduled for tommorrow morning.
What I went to the shop for...
I mentioned elsewhere I ordered my rear brake kit, and I should have it Thursday. The kit I ordered is less universal than most, and is made specifically for a rear end with old style big bearing, 31 spline axles, and a 2.36 offset. Aside from mine having a 2.5 offset, my center registration hubs are too big. I could have spacers made for the 2.5 offset and have the rotors bored to match the axels, but Colby told me to pull the axles after I physically have the brake kit so everything could be verified, and he would remachine the offset and the registration hub. I wasn't expecting it, but he said he wouldn't charge me anything. My axel flange od is just fine as is.
Rich, if you have an opportunity to ask, see if he can explain how these electronic contraptions measure caster. I see how they can measure camber and toe but I have asked two so called technicians to explain it to me and they both looked at me like I had a pile of **** on my head :003: Thats when I hit the road :burnout: looking for an old timer that still used as camber/caster gauge.
This whole alignment thing is somewhat of a mystery to me, but if I understand Castor correctly, it's the centerline of wheel up and down movement which I would think would be determined by control arm / spindle positioning, established when the frame was manufactured?? Is it something that is even checked in a normal alignment, or only when a car is in the build stages. Can it even be ajusted without major frame mods?
We had our Camry alignment done just before we traded it in. Printout showed toe and camber, nothing about castor.
I will ask.
On many modern cars, sometimes castor and/or camber isn't adjustable. However, on these cars it should absolutely be adjustable and is done by inserting shims in the upper a-arms to adjust the whole unit in or out equally (camber adjust), or more angled to the front or more angled to the back (castor adjust).
It has been 30 years since I did alignments for living, so I am a bit rusty on all the alignment tech but how I was taught should certainly apply to these 57's. We didn't have any computers for alignments back then. :004:
Rich, I started to post a little info on the caster thing here but I put it a new topic in General Tech. Some cars in my experience have only toe in adjustment available.
Rich, caster is an important part of the alignment, it's just done with shims just as the camber is. Thats my concern with the computer stuff, can it read caster as most new cars can't even adjust caster. I like to run about 2 degrees positive caster, with your power steering you may be able to run higher 3-4. The more caster you can put in the straighter and more stable it will track. Manufacturers put in a min amount to keep steering easy.
When I put my front end together I did an initial adjustment using a plumb bob for the camber and a tape measure for the toe. When we checked it at the shop I was right on on the one side and only -1 on the other but I have no way to check caster and thats why it went to the shop.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-11-30 16:30
...and a tape measure for the toe...
As crazy as this sounds, a tape measure for toe is how I was taught by the mechanics at the tire store all those years ago. We had a fancy light setup which clamped onto each wheel and while it worked great, the shop manager preferred to set the toe using a tape measure every time. So that's how I learned to do it.
A few years ago I had the front tires wear out really quickly on my crown vic (it was clearly from being toe out) and was told that the only adjustment was toe and they wanted $50 or $60 for that. So I just did it in my driveway with a tape measure and at least 3 years later, the tires are wearing perfectly on the front. I'll take that tape measure method any day. :003:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-11-30 16:30
Rich, caster is an important part of the alignment, it's just done with shims just as the camber is. Thats my concern with the computer stuff, can it read caster as most new cars can't even adjust caster. I like to run about 2 degrees positive caster, with your power steering you may be able to run higher 3-4. The more caster you can put in the straighter and more stable it will track. Manufacturers put in a min amount to keep steering easy.
When I put my front end together I did an initial adjustment using a plumb bob for the camber and a tape measure for the toe. When we checked it at the shop I was right on on the one side and only -1 on the other but I have no way to check caster and thats why it went to the shop.
Jim, I found this on the web. Goes back to how caster affects camber. This sounds complicated but it really is not. I can't speak to haow accurate this is but it looks right. The biggest issue I have ever had in DIY alignment is a level surface!
Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-11-30 17:17
Jim, I found this on the web. Goes back to how caster affects camber. This sounds complicated but it really is not. I can't speak to haow accurate this is but it looks right. The biggest issue I have ever had in DIY alignment is a level surface!
Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * [(camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2)]
Thanks Lynn,
Yes, level is a problem, especially here in California were the ground is always moving :003:
Maybe it's not complicated to you but all that math throws me for a loop :burnout:
I'm still between a rock and a hard place on my drivers side wheel. I have 0 camber and +2 caster. I would have to remove the caster to get better camber but I don't want to loose the caster so I just have to live with it until I can take the top A arm off and mill it a little, I don't see any other way around it..
Rich, sorry we hijacked your build thread but you know how it goes..
See my reply in General Tech...
My alignment guy got super busy in a matter of hours yesterday, so other than my normal alignment and checking all my nuts, bolts, etc. that's all he could do on mine. He knew it was coming back in a while for a realignment after I redo the front springs, so he elected to wait on things like my steering wheel not being rotated correctly. I didn't even try to ask him about how the castor is checked in a computerized shop...best to wait until he's got time to chat.
He did say mine looked pretty good , didn't find/see any issues to worry about. My castor and camber were "pretty close, actually, and toe was off, but wasn't too bad.
When I restored my front end, I had kept the original shims with a note as to their location, and just replaced them with new ones of the same thickness when I reassembled. I guess that helped getting it reasonably close.
Thats good news. Do you know what the caster/camber specs were? Did you see the post in the tech thread were is says they have A arms for Tri-5 Chey that are +5 caster. Not that it would help a Chevy handle any better :003:
I don't know what the specs were set to, but since it isn't it's final alignment I figured I'd get all that stuff when I bring it back. If I get real lazy...or just plain tired of working on this thing....he said he'd take care of the ride height for me whether I decided to go with cutting the springs or replacing them. Right now it sounds tempting, but I've got other priority things.
I just got back from getting an estimate for finishing up the exhaust. 450. plus whatever I decide on for tips. They're gonna start at the manifolds and redo/modify most of what I did.
Hopefully after I get the rear brakes with e-brake cables installed, I can get it over there.
I would ask "why do you have to re-do all"? Now having said that, the 450 is dead on for around here. Keep on chugging on that thing....too close to get lazy now!
Just curious Rich, how long have you been working on your car? I lost track of when I started on mine and I think I'm going on my 8th year. When I joined the site you were in the early stages on yours. I first noticed the tail lights you retrofitted and thought I might do that too. I ended up going with stock lights but your perseverance has helped inspire me to keep chipping away at mine. Having small grand kids and moving twice it has been easy to get sidetracked but this site, fellow 57 enthusiast, and projects like yours help keep the motivation going. The breaks from them help especially when the gremlins creep in. Keep chipping at it Rich you, your talents and perseverance inspire more than you know.
Bill...mostly tweaking what I did, some bends, shortening, etc. My joints as is are too close to areas that need bends in the pipes, etc. I had mentioned when you posted pics of yours mine were not as close to the driveshaft as yours, and that's one of the things they want to change.
I'll definetly keep on chugging now...way too close and getting too anxious. what I was trying to say was that I may want to just have someone else finish things up here and there, like the exhaust, if it speeds things up, and when I can $wise.
Kerby...Thanks for all the compliments. Comments like that help to keep me going too. It's been 11 years I think,about 2004. Alot of the first 4 or 5 were off and on, just something to do to keep me from going nuts with nothing to do after work. I didn't join/find this forum until '09...had no idea there was so much help (from guys like Bill ^^^)out there!
I've got alot of issues to deal with on the car yet. My check engine light started coming on, found an O'Reilly's with a OBD I code reader ('95 was the last year for OBD I, hard to find affordable readers), and found out there were 8 or 10 codes being thrown... they were all related...egr, intake , airflow, etc. car was running smooth, now a little rougher. I stopped at a neighbor/hotrodder's yesterday to say hi, left the car running while we were talking. He said "I hear a vacumn leak". My hearing is really bad, I couldn't hear it, but maybe that's one the problems. I'll get that checked out today. LOL...just cause I built this thing doesn't mean I can fix it!!
I may not get my brake kit today. Checking the delivery tracking, it kept getting notes @ Fort Worth saying "not unloaded from trailer yet, may affect delivery". I'm keeping an eye on it, if it gets to Amarillo today, I'll go to the distribution center and pick it up. The exhaust guy said he couldn't guarantee the exhaust wouldn't interfere with the e-brake cable unless the cable was installed when they did their thing.
Some issues I'm dealing with may be related...like not having the stock exhaust system may have something to do with the codes being thrown. At one time yesterday, while I was stopped talking to my neighbor, my brake pedal started pulsating, or actually giving my foot a little thumping. May have another leak somewhere. Note I do not have a vacumn brake booster, so brakes not related to vacumn.
The car has been "talking to me" a little when I turn slow tight curves..like pulling into a driveway or turning a corner. I was kinda hoping it was steering related, but nothing there changed after alignment. I know certain types of posi/trac-loc/lockers can make varying degrees of noise on corners, and I'm now thinking that's where my noise is coming from. It totally disappears as soon as the car is straight. I left it up to the guy that built my differential as to what brand trac-loc to put in. He installed a Yukon unit that is a "copy of the Eaton trac-loc...rebuildable clutches, etc. I've got the spec sheet he gave me somewhere. That's my research for today...find out if what he put in is suppose to be quiet for normal street use. I drove the car so little before I had the rear done, I don't know if the noise was there before.
After the fiasco I had with ups on my rear springs, I'm really starting to get annoyed with them. My brake kit arrived in Fort worth on the 30th. It's still sitting there in a trailer waiting to be unloaded!! I can't get a reason why from the local ups center...they just told me to call the useless 1-800 number.
So I spent an hour on the phone being transfered from one barely-speaking-English person to another. My last conversation was like a replay of "who's on first". The lady kept telling me it wasn't at it's final destination, it was on it's way to Texas. I kept telling her according to the scans it has been in Fort Worth since the 1st waiting to be unloaded. I don't think she had a clue Fort Worth was in Texas. She said when they load it on the truck for delivery they will update the tracking info, but she offered no reason why it was in FW for almost three days waiting, I think at one point she actually said, yes, it's in Fort Worth, when it gets to Texas they will update.
Why do they hire foreigners to communicate with English speaking customers???
delivery on the brake kit was rescheduled for Monday.
I got some feedback on the Yukon trac-loc. Apparently those and the Eaton versions will talk to you a bit going thru slow turns/corners, so what I'm hearing is normal. I don't like it, but it's normal.
Looked for a while yesterday, couldn't find any vacumn hoses/fittings that even remotly looked weak.
I did notice the same brake line that was leaking before is leaking again. This time I'll remake the brake line.
Im with ya Rich Customer service has become an oxymoron. I have been told, don't know if its true, that when you are put in touch with the "off shore" customer service rep. that you can request a U.S. rep and they have to transfer you. Might be a good time for someone to try it out and see if it works. That sure doesn't sound like the way UPS works. I have never had anything but good luck with them.
My brakes arrived in Amarillo this afternoon. I'm going to check to see if customer service is there tommorrow so I don't have to wait until monday's delivery.
I got a little more feedback on the Yukon trac-loc. I may have put the wrong oil in. I got refered to a Yukon link that recommends not using a synthetic oil, which is what I put in. As soon as I find my paperwork on the Yukon unit so I can determine exactly which one I have, I'll do some more research and probably drain out the $48 of lubricant I put in it. Annoying, but if that takes care of the noise I'll be happy. Also I was told additives can make a big difference in the quietness.
I did actually get something done today...got the car back up on jacks and got the rear shocks installed. Yeah...finally something that went quick and easy. I did install the Monroe '55 Ford shocks. Tommorrow the front shocks and maybe replace that front brake line that's leaky.
There is an additive that GM requires for all posi trac units. If you don't use it you will get noise cornering. Due to the fact that I moved my upper control mount/spring pocket back 3/16 of an inch I have 5 1/2 degrees of caster as opposed to the 2 1/2 degrees we were able we were able to get using shims. trying to get more than 2 1/2 degrees started to affect camber. It was much better with the 2 1/2 than the factory spec but it was still a little darty. I hope to drive it home from the glass shop most of which will be on the freeway so I should get an idea if it was worth it.
I couldn't get the front shocks on with the ass end up in the air, so that'll have to wait.
I did find out Yukon recommends a 80w/90 conventional oil and an additive. I drained out the synthetic and put in the recommended stuff. I also got the ubolts straightened out.
Went to ups...closed on Saturday, so I'll have to wait until late Monday. Suppose to be nice tommorrow...I may throw the wheels back on and take it for a spin.
Going to go back a couple of post in this thread. (Sorry to hi-jack again Rich) Caster is measured by the arc of light (modern systems) or the change in the bubble (older systems). Positive caster will give a down curve to the arc as the wheel is turned left and right, negative caster will give an up curve as the wheel is turned. No caster will give a straight line.
The bubble is mounted on the spindle, actually the hub, and the bubble is set to zero. Simple turn and read. The newer stsem, clamped to the wheel, uses light or infared and readers to do the same thing.
I like the new systems because they tell you if the rear and the front are running the same track (no crabing) and if out how much down to the 16th. When fabbing frames this is really important to know.
No problem, Bill.
I finally got my brake kit in tonight about 6pm...was starting to get worried. I found out from labels covering other labels, the Summit brake kit is made by StainlessSteelBrakes (SSB). I'm going to call them in the morning and verify the offset this kit was made for. Strangely enough, there is no mention of offset anywhere in the instructions.
Hopefully I can get positive info on that, otherwise I'm going to have to assemble one side just to see where the rotor lines up with the caliper.
opps...just realized I can't do that as the axel hub is too big for the rotor, hmmm. OH well, I'm sure they've got to know what offset the brake kit was made for. After I verify that, I'll pull the axels and get them returned to the shop so he can turn the hubs to match the rotors and remachine the shoulder (I think....depends on what SSB tells me) for the correct offset to match the kit.
BTW, this kit says "minimum 14" wheels", so after I get it all together, I'll check fit it against an oem 14" Ford wheel before I put my 15's on.
I'm still waiting for the axels to get done. I did get the brake line from the frame to the junction block on the differential done. I couldn't find my old breather bolt for the block, and the one I ordered from Mac's was the wrong thread, so I just made one from a 7/16-20 hex bolt.
I discovered the master cylinder brake line I recently replaced was in fact still leaking. Since I already had another replacement metric adapter on hand, I decided to try tightening the new line a little more with the same resulting stripping as first time, although this time I know I didn't overtighten. I didn't want the brake fluid leaking out all over while I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on, so I grabbed a 12" premade brake line and bent it in a "U" so the open end would be above the reservoir. As I was tightening it, I thought, "what the heck am I doing, the adapter is stripped, so this line is going to leak as well." Well that thought was wrong, the premade line tightened right up and I even put more pressure on it than I normally would just to test it with no problem at all. So, in a nutshell, I think problem solved...it was actually the tube fittings I got for the NiCopp lines that were the problem, not the adapter. Never even gave the fittings themselves a thought. I just continued forming that premade line and hooked it up at the proportioning valve end as well. That connection also felt much better.
I'll continue testing it and eventually make another NiCopp line to replace it, but this time I'll get some different tube fittings!! The tube fittings I was having a problem with are not the ones that came with the length NiCopp tubing. I had run out of those just as I was getting to the mastercylinder/proportioning valve and if I remember correctly had bought some more locally.
The pic is of the Monroe shocks we've been talking about, and the flex line to housing. The differential is not being supported at all except by the springs, so it's in a fully-down position.
Strange, I would have thought the block also. Where did you get the fittings so we can avoid them? Actually my first thought would have been the flare.
Is the bolt just temp until you get the right one? I don't see a breather hole..
I'm still a steel line kinda guy! Used a NiCopp line on the 61 Unibody from the fuel pump to the carb. Could never get the fitting to stop dripping on the fuel pump end. Change the pipe/inverted flare fitting on the pump to no avail. Not sure if it leaked on the carb end as I concentrated on the fuel pump. Replaced it with a good ol steel line and problem fixed.
Yep, steel lines are a pain in the you know where but I have never had a failed connection or leak with them. I will continue to use them despite the "easy" workability of the NiCapp.
Rich if you have a drill press put the bolt in a block of steel or aluminum that you drilled and tapped for the block bolt. Screw it down in the block with out changing the table on the press, set it to the lowest speed and drill a hole down through it using plenty of WD-40 to cool the bit.
The breather bolt is already done. From the end of the bolt, I drilled a 1/8 hole almost thru, then drilled a cross hole just under the head....similar to a banjo bolt for a brake hose. I ground off / relieved some of the thread just under the head, and I then widened the split on a thick split ss lock washer so the hex head wouldn't seal off the breather.
I don't think the problem I had was with the flare on the tubing...just the threads on the fittings. I may have mispoke earlier on what fittings they were, because the ones I had a problem with are black, and the ones that came with the tubing are black. maybe a posibility the brass material the adapters are made from is softer than other fittings I used?? Maybe just one bad fitting?? Something I'll have to keep an eye on for sure...short drives, then check ALL the connections. At this point I'm 95% sure it's "just" the fittings and not the tubing.
I just noticed yours looks like the brake fluid goes through the brass block
Forgot...I also finally got the trunk seal installed. It's a good thing I put a back up manual release cable on the latch, because at this point with the seal being new, it's putting too much pressure on the latch for the electric solenoid to pull it free. I've really got to slam down the trunk to get the latch to catch. I've got the catch that mounts in the trunk as far up as it will go without reworking the bolt slots. I'll let the seal settle in with the trunk closed for a few months to see if I need any rework.
Jim...the bolt I'm talking about is only the mounting bolt for attaching the brass connector block to the differential case. The block's mounting hole is not tied in to the brake line holes. That bolt also doubles as a breather for the differential case to prevent pressure build up...really nothing to do with the brake lines itself. It's posible it was a pipe fitting, but I couldn't find a pipe thread that fit, and the 7/16-20 fine thread bolt worked great.
Just saw your edit. Yes, the fluid goes thru the block. The oem setup may have been a hose with the brass junction block as one unit.
Also, something I didn't mention about the second NiCopp line also leaking. My first thought was the flare as well, even though they looked good. I remade the line with new tubing, but not even giving the fittings a thought, I cut the first one apart and reused the same fittings on the second line. When I remake the NiCopp line for a third time, I'll use fittings from a different manufacturer!!
I got mixed up Rich, I can't remember what car I worked on last year but it had a tapered bolt for the brake fluid flow through the block. I see your block is different and I don't remember what the OEM block looked like. MY memory is getting worst every year :005:
What you're describing is what I will have on the rear caliper hoses.
Too darn cold to work in my garage tonight, but I did just get home with my reworked axles. Yahoo!!
build thread update to keep everything together...if any of you were following the thread I started on the axel bearing lube, you know I discovered, (thanks to you guys) I have new style ends/bearings with the end cap drilled for the old style pattern. The Stainless Steel Brakes kit I got was made specifically for the old style ends, so the only problem I'm having is getting the correct shims to preload the tapered bearings at the "proper end play". The problem arises due to the fact the old style bearings, for which the kit's shims were designed for, are a different height than the bearing I have with the external seal. This should all work out fine, once I find out for sure what "proper end play" actually is, so I can shim accordingly. I reported on that thread I got the end play down to .006, but after mounting my rotor and being able to get a better grip on the axel, I discovered more in and out movement than I thought I had. It is actually about .013.
Aside from that problem, I'm really happy with the brake kit so far, and for sure the problem is not due to the brake kit, but the axle rework I had done. Thru shimming, I've got the caliper pretty well centered on the first side, but I'm not going to do a final buttoning-up until I can get some more info on the end play.
Looking at the e-brake cable connection, it appears there may be some interference with the cable getting over the leaf springs. I had thought about using 1" lowering blocks to eliminate the 1" added height the 6 leaf springs gave me, so now with the added e-brake cable clearance problem, I think I'm going to pick up a set of blocks and get that done before I try to assemble the cables...which I don't have yet anyway. The lowering blocks should allow the cable to clear.
The u-bolts that I bought with my springs have about 1 1/8 of extra thread, so I shouldn't even need new u-bolts.
Minor stuff that chews up so much time...the flex hose that came with the brake kit is just the right length to reach the junction block on the axle housing and have enough . The only problem is the hose has a female end to accept a brake line tube, and the block of course has the same. I don't even know if they make a union that's male/male. I haven't found one yet. Female unions are common for joining two brake lines together.
This morning I realized there probably is a reason for the .006 movement changing to the .013 I now have...I forgot had temporarily left off a plate because the supplied bolts were not long enough, and I needed to wait until the bolt suppy store opened today.
Good morning so far. I'm now armed(with info) and dangerous!!
I called a differential supply house and the guy I talked to was very helpful, and fully knowledgeable with all the components I'm dealing with, including my specific brake kit.
First, the bearings that are on the axles are a matched set of separate components (Timken). The bearing and the outer race are supplied as separate matched components, so the "shouldn't be separated" some had told me does not apply to these. When I commented I was considering changing to the more common sealed bearing, he strongly suggested I not do that (he lost a sale there!), that what I had was a better set up. That was music to my ears!
He also told me my thinking these bearings were a different height was incorrect, that after the seal is tightened down on the bearing, they are the same height as the early big sealed bearings. He told me the shims that came with my brake kit for the old style bearings would work just fine with these. He did mention I should confirm that the outer races are in fact seated fully in the end cap, that if they were not, it would explain my thinking they were higher.
End play...he told me basically all the in/out play should be eliminated or almost eliminated, all the while checking the axle rotationally to make sure the bearing is not binding. Very similar to what you'd do on a front wheel bearing...tighten the nut then back it off 1/8 turn.
I did find the bolts I needed as well...1/2-20 x 1 1/4 grade 8 hex bolts. 2 bucks for 8...I love Amarillo Bolt and Supply. My next stop netted me an Earl's brake line adapter that'll connect the caliper flex hose to the junction block.
I'm good to go. Hope I don't hurt myself doing it, lol.
And a pic of the bearings as they are sold
Well, once again I was spending alot of time trying to fix a problem I didn't have. I removed everything on the disc brake kit, and reassembled pretty much as the instructions said to, and as the helpful guy at the differential supply store suggested.
I did leave out one shim they said to use, it was obvious it was not going to be needed. I also added .135 thick spacers to the one they provided to center the caliper over the rotor. But that's it. It's centered, there is next to nothing for in/out play (dial indicator shows .002 if I tug really hard), and there is no binding. I got the flex brake line installed also, so it's on to side 2.
Probably won't get much more done til after Christmas...haven't been getting much done anyway with all the errands I'm running for the wife!
Note:...the .135 thick spacer I added just made up for the .140 that I had the axle rerworked to!! I'm thinking the kit was in fact made for 2.50 spacing that the axle had, and not the 2.36 I was told. Had I just left the axle alone and had the rotor bored out to fit the hub, everything would have been pretty darn close as is.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-12-21 16:00
And a pic of the bearings as they are sold
Some useless trivia: Timkin built the first sealed roller bearings for locomotives in 1930, the demonstrator #1111 logged 100,000 miles across the country. It took the automotive industry a while to catch on.
I guess I need to post pics, or it didn't happen.
Looking good Rich..
Sorry for your shim problems but its good to have company in my " Sweat the daylights out of a problem you don't have club" I was getting constant check engine light that was causing much angst.. I was using an temporary LED light for the dash and both it and the one on the Telovek panel were on constantly. I changed out the dash light for a permeant incandesce light and they both went out. That explains us being unable to get any codes out, there were none. I think that if an LED light can even smell electricity, it will come on. Merry Christmas to all. Our kids will be staying home in Seattle as the Cascades are impassable so it looks we will have a quiet day.
I'd like to think that's the same problem I have, but I am actually getting codes. Both my engine check light and "in Overdrive" lights are LEDs...I think,lol, but I'm glad you mentioned the light on the Televork panel...I had totally forgotten about that one. Next time I'm fiddlin with it, I'll pull the cover off the console where the panel is to see if that light is on.
Rear brakes look awesome!
Thanks Lynn....I'm happy with them so far, but I am pretty close to the point where Cluster was when he did his swap.....everything fine until E-brake connection time. Hopefully the T-Bird calipers will hook up better than the gm style was for him. I should have my cables early next week.
I had mentioned the disc kit I installed in the back said in it's literature that it fit "some 14" wheels. I tried the Ford oem 14" wheel this afternoon and unfortunatly it does not fit. I know some guys had inquired in the past about disc brakes for the 14" stock wheels, but this Summit/Stainless Steel Brakes kit will not work. I couldn't get the wheel past the registration hub, but looking inside the back of the wheel, with the wheel on up to the hub, The caliper was just about ready to bottom out anyway.
I would guess the "some 14" wheels fit" might be the Granada/Monarch wheels. Hard to find.
Not really any updates to do....I'm still waiting for my e-brake cables to be delivered by UPS. I wished I had requested another means of delivery...this is the 3rd time in the past year UPS has failed miserably for me. They were picked up by UPS on the 22rd, and according to the tracking info when I talked to the "cable guy" this past Tuesday, they were on a truck "out for delivery" Tuesday!! I don't have the tracking number, so I'll probably have to wait until Monday to figure out what's going on again.
I think all UPS shipments go to Atlanta first. If you send something to your next door neighbor it goes to Atlanta first then back to your neighborhood :003:
UPS and other shippers are so far behind due to the weather problems and flooding in the SE.
I was expecting the delay due to weahter, what surprised me was the "out for delivery" on Tuesday, which I didn't get, nor did it come on wen. so I thought for sure on Thurs., but that didn't happen either.
That sounds like a local issue. Every time mine have said out for delivery I get it the same day.
A lot of things that come FedEx here get handed off to the postal carrier and they have shown up as late as 9pm. I think some small package UPS things have too..
Hey Rich.. Just spent about an hour trying to get the G.M. mirror to work as a door mount on the right side. If you can see out of yours, how the heck did you do it? The best I could get had me looking way off in space to the right. never was able to get it even close. Set the same mirror up as a fender mount and it worked fine. I know the issue is that the wrap around windshield makes you mount the mirror too far back. right now it looks like I am going to have to go with fender mounts and if that's the case, I am going to use my Yankee Tri-Bars. Got a mounting secret?
Did you by any chance end up with two left side mirrors? Where these are slanted there are right and lefts. That would of course have the mirror's upright leaning in towards the vent window and be pretty obvious. The only thing I can think of is maybe we chose different places on the door enough to change the range of where you can adjust them? I'm kinda stumped because I didn't have anyproblems setting the mirror where I wanted. If you need more pics or dimensions, let me know.
The box it came out of was marked R.H. Can you see down the side of your car? If so then maybe a mounting location would help. We taped up the door and tried various locations but had no luck.
I just got back from being out all day. I'll get some pics and dimensions tommorrow. Yes, I can see down the side.
Hope this helps...I've got short legs, so the last pic is the view from the driver's seat with the seat up. The view down the side gets better if the seat is back further, but if I remember Doug, you're a short guy like me....makes it harder to get enough adjustment in the mirror. Where my mirror is adjusted in the photo is all the way in. I would actually have it set out further for driving. At least on the door where I have it, you can reach it for adjustment from the drivers seat, and if it's not on the fender, it won't be in the way doing engine work.
One other question...the mirror's pivot is offset from the center of the mirror. Do you have the embossed emblem at the top when you're trying to adjust?
I know I mentioned this before, but after driving my wife's new car with the back-up camera and right lane camera, I'm 100% sure they're going to be on my car before too long...especially with my rolled pan in the back.
Perfect pics Rich!
Another frustrating day waiting for my E-cables. Today is the third business day in a row where the tracking said it was out for delivery before the end of the business day.!
Cancel that...as I was typing my wife told me the ups truck just pulled up....yahoo.7 pm...at least they're working late to get caught up.
Thanks Rich....That is pretty closet to where we were trying mine. Somethings not right as you have an excess of inside adjustment and I am not even close to where you are. Ill try it again using your measurements and see if it helps. It might be just the difference in seating positions cause I really am a mile from where you are.
Hope you can work it out. It's stuff like this that totals up to add months or years to a build.
pics of my e-brake cables. Once I get everything on and working (my exhaust where it's temporarily at now may be in the way of the cables), I'll do a thread with pics and part numbers on the disc kit and cables. I did play around with them for a short time tonight, and at least the brake end should work out just fine. I have to do a small mod to the calipers, but at least from there back to the bracket on the frame near the front of the rear springs looks good. I haven't run them back to the bar on the tranny crossmember, but since they're copies of what Bob had made for his, that should be ok as well.
Had a good day even though the temperature wasn't cooperating. As I mentioned in the previous post, I took the caliper loose so I could get to the boss with a 2" disc and ground off enough material to get the cable casing's fitting installed with the retaining c-clip. Quick and easy. I had just enough slack after installing the foward fitting into the frame bracket to add a hose clamp a little further up the frame to keep the casing from rubbing the leaf spring. I hooked up the front end to the equalizer bar, and much to my surprise when I checked, I had no interference with the exhaust system at all. Yahoo. That was a big worry, even though my exhaust is only fitted temporarily. At least I know the exhaust installers can do the same when they refit everything. I added red arrows to the last pic...it's hard to see the cable.
I also remounted the wheel and tire and checked to make sure there was no interference with the caliper hitting the wheel.
I ran the cable a bit different than the disc brake company suggested. They supplied a bracket fot the cable to be run/e-clipped to. I didn't have room for the bracket, but based on what I was looking at, I don't think that was the oem way of doing it anyway. Stainless Steel Brakes would have had the bare cable running thru the big hole on the boss I reworked. Control Cables's cable had the fitting on the end with the correct diameter to fit that hole. see the first pic.
Tommorrow on to the second side. BTW, it looks like my back end is about 3-4 inches higher in the back now with the new springs and shocks. I may fit in better with the off road crowd than the customs, lol
Rich, man, the quality of those cables is off the charts from the pictures as is the installation! Did you see the improvement in changing the rear wheel/tire you were looking for? Clearance? What is your rear wheel width/B.S? I am in the early planning stages for my rear suspension rebuild. Are you planning on a rear sway bar?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-01-05 19:59
Tommorrow on to the second side. BTW, it looks like my back end is about 3-4 inches higher in the back now with the new springs and shocks. I may fit in better with the off road crowd than the customs, lol
It should settle down after you get some miles on it. Or add some sand bags in the trunk for traction :003:
Dont forget to make sure your shackles are flipped so that the spring eye is at top...
Lynn....after I get the second side finished up and the wheels back on, I'll do a check all around the back at the suspension and the fender for clearance on both sides. Offhand, I'd say that with my setup as it is, the tire is pretty well centered between the fender lip and the bracket for the bumper stop above the axel. I think that bracket is the closest thing on the inside, and next would be the leaf spring.
The wheels are 7" with a 4.25 backspace, tires are 235/70-15, and the housing was narrowed 3/4". With the car jacked up by the frame, I had no trouble whatsoever getting the tire on..probably had an inch or more of clearance. Also the '55 Monroe shocks are on as well. At this point, my thoughts are narrowing the housing any more than 3/4" would be a posible issue with suspension clearance, and installation of the disc brake kit.
Rear sway bar...no plans at this point, I'm waiting to see how the car handles with just the 6 leaf springs. My guess is probably not needed for me.
I had purchased the front cable from Dennis Carpenter, and was happy with that as well, but the rears needed something custom made, and I lucked out with Bob/57Agin having all the info I needed. Cost on the rears was 91ish including 15 for shipping. I was really pleased with them. I have not adjusted the overall setup yet of course. My initial thought when hooking the front of the drivers side rear cable to the pivot bar was the cable could have been an inch longer, as I just got it on with the connector piece all the way to the end of the threaded rod. Once I get all the slack pulled out and everything adjusted, I'll have a better idea if that "1" longer" thought will still apply.
I had brought this up before, and I don't know if we ever got a definite answer, but I had noticed in the catalogs they used the same part number for oem rear cables for '57 Fords without reference to it being a Custom or a Fairlane platform. It seem to me that Fairlanes would need rear cables 2" longer than Customs. Anybody know?? It wasn't something I needed to get into when I ordered mine because Bob's info was for a Custom like mine.
James....the shackle is in the correct position as you mentioned. I checked it as I was lowering because I had noticed with the axels hanging down all the way, the position could easily have gone either way. As far as my car being up higher, I still have the passenger side on a jack,btw. Probably won't make that much difference though.
Jim...yes on the settling if I ever get these brakes finished up. I'm planning on a month or two of driving before I start changing anything. My avatar pic is with the old springs still in the car, and no shocks at all. The fender well was approximately level with the wheel. Setting my car down on the one tire in the back, and the other side still on jacks, the fender well is now at least 3" above the wheel. Bring on those floodwaters...I can handle it!!
It will settle faster if you add some weight. When I put new springs on the rear of my F100 truck I added 6 90# bags if ready-mix in the bed over the rear axle for about a month..
Good idea...now I just need to find some 50# bags so I can actually lift them in there.!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-01-06 10:26
Good idea...now I just need to find some 50# bags so I can actually lift them in there.!
That was many years ago, if I did it today it would be 50# and even those are getting hard to handle.
Got the passenger side e-brake hooked up yesterday. Now with both cables hooked up to the front, and the driver's side now in it's final position, I do have some interference with the exhaust on both sides.
I was barely able to get the second cable hooked to the bar, both threaded rods were near the end of the adjustment to get them hooked up, so I'll stand by my original thought that the cables could be an inch longer, maybe more for a Fairlane setup as previously mentioned. I need to weld a brake line bracket to the differential, and add a hose clamp to the frame before I put the wheel back on, hopefully get that done today and jack up the front and get the front shocks mounted.
On the cable being a little short, yes, there is some extra length on the back end, but that extra is good there to get the cable away the leaf spring. So, if anyone is doing this setup on a Custom, I'd add an inch to the overall cable length as determined by the pn that Bob and I used.
Well, I mispoke in an earlier thread. I got the car set down on it's back wheels today, and found out the jackstand on the right side was raising up the left side much more than I had expected. The wheel well opening is now only about 3/4" above the wheel. I like the way it's sitting there, so I probably won't do any lowering to the back. In the future if I want to go to a wider tire in the back, I think I can if I use a 1/4" wheel spacer. Not sure though how wide I can go with a 7" wide rim.
I also mispoke about the wheels being centered between the suspension and the fender well lip. The closest thing on the inside is the leaf spring, and the tire is 3/4" from it. I have 1 3/8 clearance on both sides from the tire to the fenderwell lip at it's closest point. Same dimension both sides tells me the body is centered on the frame.
The left side e-brake cable is rubbing on the tire, so I've got to go back and take care of that problem. I had noticed that before I did the right side, so that side is good.
The car's back end is sitting on a 2 1/4 tall platform I had made with 2 x 6's and 3/4 plywood, the front end is sitting on the dirt floor, but that position is just an inch or so shy of the rake I want to end up with. Just for grins I checked the engine angle in that position, and it's 2 1/2-3* down. I think It's gonna end up just about what I was shooting for.
I got my front shocks mounted, so another thing off my to-do list. Next is bleeding the brakes.
It finally got warm enough the past few days for most of the streets to dry out from the snow and ice we had last weekend. I was thinking I might get to take it out for a short ride after I got the brakes bled, then my wife just told me they were expecting 4-6" of the white stuff tonight. #@%$$!!
Post #6000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I finally got enough brake pedal to test it out....man that took hours. Did power bleeds, the old 2 person method, and my first time doing a gravity feed. The gravity feed worked great on the front, not the back. Not sure why, but in the back with the bleeders open, nothing would flow. The front was slow, but eventually got all the air out.
It's suppose to warm up tommorrow for a few days, hopefully the mud in my back yard will dry out so I can get it up on the driveway without making a huge mess. Then it's test time.
Did you try one of those vacuum gadgets that attach to the bleed nipple and actually draw the fluid through rather than pushing it through? I've got an "Easy bleed" kit that attaches to the master cylinder and uses air pressure to push it through, they work well BUT I haven't got an adaptor to suit my master cylinder (it's designed for British stuff) so I'm looking at the vacuum type.
Yes, I did...that was the "power bleed" unit I was talking about. It has a bottle with a nozzle that hooks up to an air compressor, and another bottle that clips into the master that feeds the reservoir so it doesn't need refilling as often. First, let me say this was the first time I had ever bleed a system where everything was new and full of air, as opposed to just replacing something like a wheel cylinderor a caliper. I don't know how much trouble the 4 calipers added to the bleeding, but I'm 100% certain the master on the hydroboost was the component that made it difficult. I had read those particular masters couldn't be bench bled because there was no internal check valve, so you'd lose the bleed before you got it to the car. The master does in fact have two bleed screws on it, so I took that as a confirmation of what I was reading.
With that in mind, I tried to bleed the master first, front and back then the lines. Frankly, I still read info where they tell you to start with the wheel furthest from the master and work your way closer. Maybe wrong, and I understand that reasoning for the old single reservoir masters....but with the masters "nowadays" (starting 50 years ago) having dual reservoirs, I worked on the front and backs seperatly.
Back to your question on the vacumn pump for the bleeding...Yes it seemed to work great, the problem I couldn't figure out was it seemed like the air bubbles coming thru with the fluid were never ending. I'll bet I bled the front two lines at least 20 times and it seemed like I was getting so much air bubbles I could have filled the Heidelburg twice over. So, was that working...????? I then tried just a gravity feed with the tube hooked up to the bleeder....very slow. The passenger side was still getting air bubbles thru after 2-hours and filling the jug maybe 3 times, but finally fuid started coming thru no bubbles. As I mentioned, I was also bleeding the master intermittently when I was working the lines. All in all, it took the better part of a full day, so I figured I was doing something wrong...I just didn't know what that was.
Bleeding brakes,one of my least favorite jobs. There is often a grinning gremlin hanging around during that job. Remember doing it years ago on my wife's Sunbeam Alpine with my then 3 year old daughter. Pushed the seat back sat her on the floor on a pillow and explained her the push and hold process. And by God she did it right. Seem to recall afterwards we walked to the local burger joint for ice cream cones.
One thing I discovered a few years back is to replace all the bleed screws with ones with the check ball in them. Absolutely will not allow any air to bleed back into the system. Not saying it would have solved your problems Rich but they do make it easier. And yes I still start farthest away first and work my way forward to closest, old habits are hard to break.
Glad you got it all figured out,now take it for a CAREFUL spin around the block.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Had an absolutly great day today. I pulled her out of the shed this morning while the ground was still frozen, then a little later took it out for a spin around the neighborhood. Everything was feeling so good I decided to take it for a longer drive. There's a loop that runs around the outskirts of Amarillo that's probably 30 miles or so around, so I headed there. I was grinning ear to ear the whole way. I don't have my speedometer set yet, but at a few spots I probably got it up to 65 or 70. It was freakin' awesome...no vibrations whatsoever, held the road really well, overall handling/response was as good or better as I had hoped. This was the first time out with shocks on the car...made a huge difference. It was also the first time out since I had changed the differential fluid because of cornering noise I was hearing. That noise is totaly gone now...I couldn't believe it. I've got NO squeaks or rattles(except my baling wired exhaust), and even the passenger door that hasn't had the door seal installed yet was surprisingly quiet...and I was wearing my hearing aid. The brakes worked great.
Since he was near the loop, I stopped by the Racing shop that did my rear end to tell him I had it out for a run and the noise we had previously discussed was no longer there. He came out to look at it, and I was honestly expecting him to take no longer than 5 minutes because he obviouly had alot of stuff going on in his shop, but he was out there for half an hour looking at everything, asking all kinds of questions. Told me I had to get this thing in the upcoming shows. Made my day!!. He said..."like everyone else, you talk to guys about their cars and unless you know their work, you just never know, but this thing is just awesome."
After I left his place I drove 180* around the loop and stopped in the see my friend, mentor, adviser, etc who had helped me for so many years. Cody had never seen the car, only pics. He spent an hour going thru everything. Kept sayin "Rich, this is awesome". He said "I notice stuff people never will see...look at your door jambs, man this is great. He needed a ride back from the alighnment shop that also did my '57, so I followed him there and brought him back home. He was impressed with the way it rode and drove....just kept going on and on.
So, yup I had a good day!!!
Tommorrow I'm going to give another shot at getting the speedometer set, and this time I'll remember my GPS as well.
One not so good thing, btw....after fiddling with my speedometer button trying to set it, the tach started acting up. Not sure if it was coincedence, or what, but it was working very well right up to that point!
Rich you going to have to buy a bigger hat?
Nah, soon as something goes wrong the swelling will diminish, lol. Now, if I had won top rod of the year I'd for sure be looking for a new hat!!
Congrats Rich!!!!!
You have worked so hard and the efforts of your build are outstanding.There is no other joy than the first real drive and the thrill of your work has paid off.Very very happy for you.
Outstanding!!!!
That is great news, you will be burning up the hiways on a daily basis soon..
Good job Rich...Nothing beats the feeling of the first real drive in a car that you know you have touched, cleaned, modified, designed and built every single part in the thing. People that haven't done a complete build cannot even come close to understanding what it takes to get to where you are. Everything I have seen of your build looks first rate and you have done things I would never have thought of, much less attempted. Really looking forward to seeing it live.
Thanks Doug.....It got better today. Took it out on the highway (with my GPS this time)and ran it for 45 minutes at 70. LOL, I had a big rig pass me out beeping his horn, when I looked up it was one of my buddies just waving like crazy. I followed him for 15 minutes at 75, then hit 85 passing him. He was beeping his horn, waving and giving me the thumbs up! Still no vibrations! Just smooth as silk. All in all, I was out for about 1 1/2 hours.
My tach is definetly screwed up...it was fine, seems normal half the time, particularly when it's cold, but then does crazy things, like the needle going up 2k when I take my foot off the gas.
When it was acting normal, I was getting about 2300 at 75 mph.
Looking forward to seeing yours as well, Doug.
Guys, what Doug and I have been talking about is we've been trying to coordinate things when he makes his big looping drive around the country, so that he'll come thru Texas, or we'll meet somewhere, where Connie and I can join him and his wife for a few days. Wouldn't that be cool!
Rich... I think you used the Detail Zone harness. If you did, your aftermarket tach won't work without a tach driver The stock harness sends 5 signals thru one wire to the gauge package where, by some kind of magic, it is decoded and sent to the right place. the tach signal is one of those. You probably already know that but thought I would mention it just in case..
Actually I didn't, I'll check into it. Maybe a difference in the 5.0 harness vs the 4.6. The instructions had info to connect the wiring from the patch panel to the tach, I'm not remembering if there was a distinction between a stock or aftermarket tach. The tach had been working until yesterday.
related (or not)...The pulse generator for the speedo that was supplied with the gauge kit was a Ford unit with the same pn as what was on the tranny, so I left the oem one on there.
I've got to fiddle with the speedo, pushing the button in certain sequences to reset it. It's what is required if the unit does not calibrate on the initial try. The only place I've found so far, other than I40, with highway mile markers has no breakdown lane and too much traffic to stop for more than a short time.
that info came from my 4.6 installation I used auto meter gauges and got the tach driver from them. If your tach did work before i doubt that you need a driver. Mine was specific to the 98 to 04 mustang so if your engine came from a different year or model, my info may not apply at all.
my engine/harness was '95 Lincoln Mark Viii. I don't remember if the Mark VIII's even had a tach, I think so, but not 100% sure.
My 98 LSC had a tach......
Been offline for a couple of days... congrats to this point! :003:
I checked...all the Mark VIII's had tachs
Thanks Lynn
More than a step backwards today...took the car out for another test drive today. several things acting up on it. At one point the tranny wouldn't shift out of 2nd. I think it's the gearshift lever, I noticed the red plastic dot wasn't in it's usual position. Seems to be some/more play in the handle. I'll take the console apart a little so I can check that out, maybe crawl under the car to see if anything's loose on the tranny connection. I finally got it to shift into high gear by pushing the lever almost into what would have been the neutral poistion.
The thing that's a bit scary though...slowed me down quite a bit until I could get it the 20 miles back home. The steering wasn't as responsive as usual. There seemed to be more side to side play than it had. That was something I checked out the first day out on the loop....with no traffic around, at about 60, I was intentionally making back and forth turns on the wheel. Kinda driving drunk!, The response was immediate and firm. Not so today, starting when I got down to where I was going. My steering wheel had been cocked about 10 degrees. (My alignment guy was going to straighten that out, but got busy and put it off because he knew I was going to bring it back after the springs change). Anyway, I noticed the wheel was almost in the correct position, and I could move it back and forth more than previously without a whole lot of direction change. Everything under the car was checked last month when I had it aligned. It almost feels like a ujoint/steering shaft has loosened. They are all double d shafts, btw. After I made a few turns, the steering wheel returned to it's incorrect, cocked 10* position!! WTH?
Also...somewhere in the ignition/starter circuit, I'm starting to lose a connection. several times now I've had to turn the key 3 or 4 times before the starter engaged. Most everything is new except for the steering wheel components, so the key switch and the ignition switch are 'oem '96.
I need a nap. I think I'll adopt a new slogan:
"just because I built this thing doesn't mean I can fix it"
Ah yes! Exactly the reason we drive them a whole bunch close to home before we take off for parts unknown. Your probably right on the shifter something just slipped and will be pretty easy to spot and fix. The steering,however, is something else. with double d shafts, unless one has completely slipped out of a joint, which mine did BTW right in my garage, you can't get any play whether the set screws are loose or not. I use one double joint on mine and if I don't have the steering column pulled up as far as possible that joint will get slack in it and it kind of folds over on its self and screws up the steering. If you have R&P steering ,you may also have used one of those. I'm just shooting in the dark here but i know that when problems arise, a nap is a good first step.
With the way my u-joints are, all of them have to be loose to get a first one pulled from a shaft. So, with that in mind, and the fact we have snow headed this way tonight, I took it out again today. This time I went all the way to Dumas which is about 49 miles from my house, so drove it over a hundred miles today. One of the reasons I took it out was I got to thinking this is sorta a new car I'm just not use to...maybe it was ok and I'm just noticing things for the first time. Anyway I think that was the case. The steering was just fine, although I do think there is something loose enough to make the steering wheel shift positions a little. The alignment shop is going to check it out maybe Monday if he doesn't too busy. At any rate, I was noticing some wind noise I didn't hear before, but other than that nothing new. nothing new is good!
Probably found the issue with the steering not seeming to feel as responsive. I never checked/noticed the obvious...my front left tire is low. I noticed it when I pulled the car into the garage tonight. DUH!!
I also had a thirty second fix for the shifting issue. I noticed today the shifter's lock out button was sticky, and when it was sticking, it was preventing the shifter to lock into the detent. A little silicon spray took care of it.
See Nothing to it! Driving them the first few times can be nerve wracking until you get some confidence it them. First time out with mine, a pebble came out of the tire and hit the body and the first thought thru my mind was "Oh god, what did I forget!" The more you drive them, the better it gets.
Rich, I had a similar starting issue.... I changed the solenoid, the battery, the ignition switch... it turned out to be the ground between the engine and the frame, it was loose. I know your car is completely different from mine but sometimes it is the simplest of issues that seem to be the hardest to identify
It sounds like you only have a few minor issues, congratulations. Those first few shake down trips are fun and enlightening, always something going on in the back of your mind wondering what if. My first was 140 miles round trip, went better then expected but I always take the wife with me, I can't push the thing by myself :003:
That's funny. I couldn't push mine either.
One thing I'm 98% certain of after a few hundred miles. I can't see any reason to consider adding the rear sway bar. Now, granted, I'm not racing around on winding country roads, but this car is not leaning at all. Sway bar up front, and the 6 leaf springs in the back, new shocks all around. Excellent ride, car stays level. I'm not sure I understand "bump steer" I read about all the time, but I've been on some pretty rough patches of road, and steering doesn't seem to be affected. I haven't been on any washboard roads. Ha, I use to be on one occasionally in Colorado with my Jeep. Anything over 15 miles an hour would just bounce you across the road sideways.
Rich, I agree with the rear sway bar thought. Sway bars on a leaf spring rear suspensions are less effective than other types. You wouldn't notice much difference depending on cornering speeds. The general rule of thumb is when you add roll resistance to the front end, you add it to the rear as well. You added some with the extra leaves. My experience though, is when cornering hard, a rear bar will make the rear end seem and act heavier which I think is a better "feel". These days exit and entrance ramps might be our only winding roads though. I plan on using one because of my sports car days, my daily driver is a two seater convertible. I think I need to do it before my exhaust, 6 leaf springs, and lowering blocks....etc.... well the list goes on. I have added rear bars to a '66 Chevelle SS396, a Mazda, and probably 10 Datsuns, going back to the sixties and I was never disappointed. I am intrested in seeing how that change will work out on a '57, hell, I might even autocross it! :003:
Nice to hear it handles well Rich. Handling is always a top priority for me.
I added the rear one to the Ranchero, it has 6 leaf springs also. I do a lot of heavy cornering at higher speeds then the average person but I spend a lot of time on mountain roads here in my area and the rear bar was a slight improvement. Once a road racer always a road racer I guess, regardless of what the wife says :003:
I wish we had Rally racing in this country like they have in others..
More of the same yesterday, about 8o miles. LOL, I've gotta stop driving and go back to fixin and finishing. Too cold today, but pretty outside. All the trees are white from last night's frozen fog. Suppose to be nice tommorrow, I'm thinking I need a longer trip, maybe Tucemcari, NM..125 miles each way.
now that you have driven the car some,are you happy you picked the 4.6?how is the power and fuel economy?
It's all your fault, Gary, lol..........100% happy with the decision to go with the 4.6. I love the way it looks, sounds, and the way fills the engine bay. Power as is will be more than adequate for me.
I'm still having issues with my tach, and haven't got my speedometer going yet, so fuel ecomomy is just a guess at this point, but I think it's going to be good. I'm still babying it also, and I'm running almost constantly with the check engine light on. I'm for sure not going to have any issues with a lack of power, although as I said, I haven't got on it hard yet...maybe tommorrow. I should be putting a couple hundred miles on it tommorrow...heading west on I40. So, yeah, I'm totally happy with it at this point and it should get alot better as I take care of issues and become more familiar with the car in general.
One thing I do notice it seems like the tranny is shifting out of od maybe a little too much on hills. It's strictly an OD issue, when I take it out of OD, there is no downshifting on hills. I may be noticing it more than I would if the car was quieter. The car shifts smoothly, just an exhaust noise making it really noticable (and irritating). Not sure how much effect the 3.50 gears had with that. I'll live with that though, at least for a while. I don't have that many hills I normally drive on.
I had the same downshifting issues with the 4.6 that was in my uni-body and I had 3.70 gears in it. I believe they all do it but in the stock car it came out of, you just would not have noticed it. I have paid close attention to my Dodge Magnum and by watching the tach, it does a lot more shifting than I realized. they just make then shift so smooth you don't even realize whats going on. I am told that there are tech's that can go into your computer and change pressures and shift points. Don't know if they could help you out or not but would probably be worth talking to one if its not livable.
Thanks, Doug...good info. I think you're right with the new cars shifting more than we realize.
I did take the car for a long drive today. I picked up my brother in law this morning and we went to Tuchemcari, NM, about 220 miles round trip. Nice day, windy, but we made it back without a tow truck, so that was excellent!.
So today's findings.....
Near as I can tell, I got about 23 mpg. I can live with that.
I got on it hard at one point, close to getting back home. I was running about 60mph, and just floored it for the first time. I got almost no acceleration, or big increase in RPM's! the engine just seemed to bog down. I mentioned before, I've been running it almost all the time with engine codes being thrown, and those codes mostly relate to air intake. I suspect the lack of power on heavy acceleration is tied in to the engine code problems. The car seems to run normal under normal driving conditions, so it's not a problem that needs immediate attention. May be as simple as inadequate air cleaner size. I am running premium gas, but in our area premium is mostly 91 octane. The lack of power could also be due to the computer posibly running in a back up mode due to the codes being thrown.
I discovered my heater has a drip inside, I need to get that checked out.
I ran with my headlights on for an hour, just to make sure there were no issues with the halogens. There were not.
I do have alot of wind noise coming thru the doors. Not sure if it was due to the winds, but it seemed more than what I had noticed on other days.
Tommorrow, I'm bringing the car in to get the exhaust finished up. We're going to look at it in the morning and decide whether to run it out the side behind the wheels, or out the back. He looked at it quickly tonight and thought going out the side would have to be closer to the back corner than the wheel to clear the springs.
I'm getting too much wind noise with mine also. A have both striker plates adjusted as far out as they will go so I don't have to slam the doors quite so hard. I am hopeful that as the gaskets settle in, I will be able to move the striker plates in and perhaps get a better seal. Maybe sitting out in that hot Phoenix sun will speed things up.
My driver's door seal actually has a gap in it around/above the wing window area, and that seems to be where the wind is coming in. Passenger side door has no seal installed yet. I was going to try using some household self stick seal temporarily on the door jam to try and verify the locations where it's leaking.
Got the A/C system checked out...no leaks...yay!!!....and charged. I''ve still got two air vents/ducts to install, but it's blowing cold air.
I did get the exhaust done Wednsday. They did a nice job of getting everything tweaked that I had already done, and what they did I'm real happy with. It did not quiet down as much as I had hoped from the inside, but it's better. I've got the quietest ones Magnaflow makes, so the next step is just a regular muffler. I like the sound around town, just would like it a bit quieter on the highway. Maybe earplugs will work, lol.
I drove it in some hilly areas with the OD off, and like it much better...no constant downshifting, etc.
A few days ago I noticed a wet spot on the carpet under the heater, but yesterday (with the heater running), no drips at all after about 1 1/2 hours.
I was able to get some underside pics at the exhaust shop since it was the first time on the lift....
Pulled my car out of the driveway this afternoon to take my wife for a ride,(after twisting her arm for 20 minutes). Wouldn't you know it...got to the end of the driveway and no power steering, and also lost my power brakes. We drove around the block and before we got home smoke was coming out from the engine compartment somewhere.
Got my laser thermometer out, batteries dead, so off to the store for batteries. 1/2 hour later, Temp at both the hydroboost and the power steering pump were still hot, as well as the PS reservoir.
I started the car again and determined the smoke was either from the reservoir or the pump.
The pump is the oem '95 unit.
My thoughts are the PS pump went bad. I'm not sure if the hydroboost going bad would affect the ps pump, obviously would the other way around though.
So, of those 2 components, my first inclination is to replace the pump, but there is also the rack and pinion. I know when I first got the whole system plumbed up, the hydroboost was heating up like crazy until I bled the rack. So, I'm not sure if the rack would cause problems with the ps pump.
Any thoughts??
I started replacing the Power steering pump today. Got it bolted in at least. Tommorrow I'll get the rest hooked up, refilled, and bled.....keeping my fingers crossed all the while that cures the problem. At least I know now everything is accesible on the 4.6 from underneath as I've already replaced the starter/solenoid.
My new slogan...just cause I built this thing doesn't mean I can fix it!
Zero progress on the steering/brakes issue. I got a rebuilt power steering pump installed and filled up the fluid, started the engine. Ran quiet for about a minute, then started making a mechanical noise. The pump got hot real quick and started smoking. Don't know if my pump that was on it went bad, then I got a bad rebuilt unit, or if there's something else going on.
Restarted the car an hour later after everything had cooled off. Same thing. Ran for a minute then repeat of the above.
Frustrated. At least the Broncos are playing well so far.
My power steering pump has been making noise ever since I got the thing running. unless there is some special way to bleed air out of a ford system I have to change the pump before the road trip.
I got the power steering pump replaced with another pump and discovered the setup has another issue...the rack is bad also. It probably was the culprit to begin with. I've got a replacement rack on order and also ordered the Moog cc850 aerostar springs. I figure as long as the springs have to be replaced and the rack, it would be dumb not to get it all done at once.
Posibly the ride height being so far off put extra stress on the rack??????????? causing it to blow a seal? It started leaking really bad when I pulled the car out of the garage to turn it around. Left a trail of fluid all the way down the driveway. Looking underneath I can see the external rubber components are badly cracked and split.
Speaking of ride height, while I had it on the driveway, I measured everything. My spindle to fender well opening is at 16 1/4 (4" higher than Doug's), rocker at front is 10 3/4 (3 1/4 higher than doug's) Rocker at the rear is 11 1/4. the sway bar is 11 1/8. I think if the Aerostars drop it a full 3", I'll be in good shape. Not sure if it will drop the full 3" if I use a 1" insulator. Anyway, I'm thinking the drop with the Aerostars will give it more of a radical rake than I'd like, so I may end up with lowering blocks back there.
Gonna be off the road for a while again unfortunatly.
Sorry to hear about your rack problem. I was going to comment on your ride height and springs but first I wanted to verify you are using Granada spindles? I'm not awake enough to go back and read all the old posts :003:
Rich ride height should not impact the rack at all unless there is a serious bind. Pump pressure would be my first look. I do not know the GM pump pressure vs the MK VIII. If the MK pump is significantly higher that could be the culprit. I'll look and see if I can find any thing on that.
Remember to loosen up the nuts on the front suspension after the new coils go in. The drastic change in ride height will put the rubber under stain and cause premature failure.
http://www.classicperform.com/TechBook/PowerSteeringTechTips.htm
Read this, Rich. It will shed some light on pressures, etc. It dispelled a lot of myths about pumps, I learned a lot from it. I always had thought GM pumps ran higher pressure, but apparently, ALL power steering systems operate at or near the 1000 psi range...cool information here, a little lengthy, but should answer a lot of your questions.
Jim...yes, granada spindles which is why I initially didn't consider the Aerostar springs. Not to beat a dead horse, but I read so many times the combination wouldn't work, and especially for me who does not like the dropped in the weeds look. As my ride height became an obvious problem after final assembly, I came to realize what works for one car doesn't necessarily work for another. It's all in the weight and weight distribution of the drivetrain specific to the vehicle. The springs I am replacing, btw are Eaton MC 1484, actually rated lower than the oem 6 cyl springs. My engine...alum block, heads, tranny, radiator.
Bill Yeah, thought about the pump pressure, wasn't suppose to be an issue, but there's always the "but". The rack although unused, is about 5 years old. Looking at what I can see of the rubber components, I'm inclined to think it's a rubber quality issue that seems to be plaguing everything nowadays. For what it's worth, the 500 miles or so it got driven last week did not indicate any overly sensative steering. If anything, it was a little harder steering than I was expecting.
Thanks for the reminder on the suspension bushings. I wouldn't have remembered that for sure.
James....thanks for the link you posted while I was typing. I'll read it.
That was a good read, Thanks again James. I've got it saved.
I should have also mentiond my hydroboost that's part of the steering system. I may be wrong, but it would seem a properly working hydroboost should have no affect on the system pressure once everything is bleed. My logic there is different racks would be needed for a vehicle originally equipt with hydroboost, and I do not believe that is the case.
I know the weight difference will make a little change but I don't think it will be a large amount. I've swapped V8 into 6 cylinder cars without any major change showing. With the Granada spindles and stock OEM springs I have 12-1/4" between center of spindle and bottom of the fender. I can't image the difference in weight with you 4.6 would allow it to go up 4"? I still think they sent you the wrong springs. I hope the Areo springs work but I really can see how, at least not without spacers. I may be wrong, time will tell.
Wrong springs are a posibility. I'll look up the physical dimensions for the number they were suppose to have sent me and double check that when I pull them out.
I just picked up the same 1" spacers that Doug used, btw. I'm thinking I can live with an inch too high alot easier than 1" too low.
Also...kinda what I was saying about each car being different....you have 12 1/4 spindle to fender with Granada spindles and OEM springs. Doug has the same 12 1/4, Granada spindles, but with Aerostars/1" spacer. I'm also aware that not all Granada spindles are rereamed for the same height. Dave at Drop n Stop makes them available in either 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 drops. I verified that TWICE with him.
That reaming I believe leaves me the option of re-reaming mine (currently reamed for 2 1/2 drop)so I only have a 1 1/2 drop if I need that correction.
I just got the physical dims. for the MC1484 Eaton spings I'm suppose to have: 15 1/2 length, .690 wire, 4.039 ID I did not get the specs on load, etc. because I have no way of checking that part.
I think with the spacer you should be safe, and I'm pretty sure without it you would be too low.
That's interesting, I had no idea they could be reamed for two different heights.
Not all 'Granada style' spindles are created equal. The Granada style spindle were used on several models and years. I've found spindles removed from a Granada have somewhere in the 1" to 2" drop. I took my set off a '76 V8 Granada and they have about a 2" drop. I've also found '78 LTD II spindles initially appear the same as Granada spindles with the same appearing rotors and calipers but have no drop. The LTD II take a different wheel bearing. They look the same and are typically called 'Granada spindles' but are slightly different. Before buying 'Granada spindles', measure your stock spindles from the bottom on the lower ball joint boss to the center of the spindle. Then, you can compare the spindles you are buying for the drop you are looking to obtain. Scrap price is down so one might be able to buy the whole car for reasonable money.
I'm thinking about having a local shop replace my coil springs and rack and pinion. I really can't afford the 75 an hour, but I'm dreading trying to replace the coils in my too-small working space and my too-old body. If it were summer, I'd cover the car and do it in the driveway. How many hours do you think a shop would take to do that? Not including alignment, I'm thinking 5-6 hours. Is that a reasonable guess for a regular shop with 2 post lifts, etc.?
Rich, I have 13" (or there abouts) fender lip to spindle center with CC850 springs, stock spindles, and no spacers... I figure my engine weight is between a Y block and a 6 cylinder. I am thinking a shop with a lift could change the springs and the rack in maybe 3 hours... especially since everything is clean and new. My 2 cents.
Thanks for the input Lynn. If I can get a quote of 3 hours I won't think twice about it.
Lynn is right, With all new parts, I don't think I spent an hour a side changing mine and I did it on jack stands, which is something I swore I would never do again after getting my hoist. [ hoist is outside and it was way too cold to be out there] Anybody quotes you over 3 hours and I would be talking to another shop
Thanks Doug. I'm going to go talk to some guys this morning.
Yesterday I swallowed my pride and went to see an old friend at a hot rod shop literally less than 2 blocks from my house. I hadn't been there in about a year since we had a disagreement...at least on my part. Anyway, that worked out well, both he and his dad reacted like long lost buddies and never brought up the subject of why I stopped coming around, so that made it really easy. Kip just stopped working on whatever he was doing and spent an hour just talking. Anyway, he is going to do the coil spring and rack swap for me when the parts get here. Kip is close enough I can fill the ps reservoir drive the car there without damaging the pump. Other shops would have meant having it towed. Cost should be 250-300. It'll make my month tight, with all the other money I've spent on the car, but it'll be worth it.
Yeterday got up in the high 60's so I took the opertunity to remove a 10 foot section of chain link fence at the end of my driveway and replace it with a gate. That's going to make getting the car in and out of the shed so much easier.
Brought my car over to my friend's shop this afternoon. They're going to start on it in the morning..hopefully get it finished up in short order and leave me enough pocket money to do the Colorado trip I've been anxious to do.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2016-01-27 15:12
I think with the spacer you should be safe, and I'm pretty sure without it you would be too low.
That's interesting, I had no idea they could be reamed for two different heights.
Jim...interesting...I was rereading Canadian Ranchero's build thread, back on the first pages,where we were discussing pics of his front suspension, and you had asked about the spacer he had on top of his ball joint boot. I didn't catch it at the time, but you went on to say that your spindle fit all the way down.
That's the difference in the different ride heights I was discusing here a few days ago. Mine,like Gary's, is up on the ball joint an inch or so providing the 2 1/2 drop. Yours apparently is all the way down on the ball joint providing a 1 1/2 drop.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-03 09:08
Jim...interesting...I was rereading Canadian Ranchero's build thread, back on the first pages,where we were discussing pics of his front suspension, and you had asked about the spacer he had on top of his ball joint boot. I didn't catch it at the time, but you went on to say that your spindle fit all the way down.
That's the difference in the different ride heights I was discusing here a few days ago. Mine,like Gary's, is up on the ball joint an inch or so providing the 2 1/2 drop. Yours apparently is all the way down on the ball joint providing a 1 1/2 drop.
Well that just proves what I have been saying all the time, my memory isn't worth $.02 at times :005:
Edit: I just found that old post and now I'm confused even more. It appears the ball joint stud would have to be longer then mine or it is just from the angle of the picture. My spindle does go all the way down and I have only two thin washers on the top then the nut and no large amount of thread left on the top?
Reading further down, Gary said he is using Lincoln spindles, so we can't compare..
Just walked over to the shop to see how my car was going. They had just gotten everything assembled finger tight and set it back down on the wheels so I could have a look at the ride height. Not good. It dropped 4 1/2 inches from 16 1/4 at the fender well to 11 3/4. I've got a 4" rake along the rockers and the sway bar is around 5". Since basically it was done except for tightening things up, I told him to finish it. I'll drive it to see how it handles, rides etc and at least get a feel for the Aerostar springs.
One thing I did check...the oem springs I had in there were suppose to be 15 1/2, they are 16", so that kinda verified I got the wrong springs from Eaton's. I'll check further for wire dia, etc.
If I like the way it drives and don't have any bottoming issues, I'll lower the back 1 1/2 or so with blocks. My guess at this point is I'll be trying cutting the coils I had in there.
Caution on cutting the heavier coils, as it will stiffen the ride. You may just need to find a spring the right length in the spring rate you want. Also, if you lower the back a little, it will relax the front, and you may gain as much as an inch back..
Yikes thats a major drop! That was with using the 1" spacer? 5" at the sway bar is low, don't pull up to a wheel stop in a parking lot, I hit them at 5 1/2. I would try cutting the springs if you don't mind a harsher ride like mentioned by James. Thats how I use to do it back in the 60's but I like the stiffer suspension..
Rich.... That may not be as bad as you think. your 1/2 inch lower than where I started and I assume that you did install springs and spacers or you would be a lot lower than that. I just went out and rechecked mine since everything has been in for awhile and I am exactly 12 inches at the spindle. You can usually get away with cutting 1/2 of a coil without much,if any, effect on ride but that will usually only give you about a 1 inch drop, at best. I had 1/2 coil off of my new stock springs and it didn't do much of anything.
I just went out and rummaged thru my various areas and found the ones I took out of my car they have 1/2 coil off and measure 14 1/4 tall with a wire dia. of .715 to .720. They have o miles on them, If you want to try them, your welcome to them and I can throw them in the car in March and bring them down. They may be the same as what you have but if yours are 16" tall these might do you some good, if you don't like the aerostar
Yes, the 1" spacers went in there. I had them trimmed and attached to the Aerostars ready for them to put in.
As I mentioned, it's obvious now that I had the wrong springs to begin with. For one thing, I can now with the aerostars push down the front end quite easily bouncing it up and down, where before I could barely move it at all. I thought the load rate on the Aerostars was suppose to be greater than the load rate on the oem springs, but the ones I had in there were substantially stiffer, once again confirming I don't know what was in there. Anyway, they haven't called me yet to tell me it's ready, so I haven't driven it yet.
I just got the call...I'll check in later.
I think the Aerostars will be just fine. It's about an inch or so lower than I'd like, but as long as I don't have any bottoming issues, I can live with it, but will definetly need to drop the back a little. A 4" rake along the rockers is just too drastic for my taste. Swap meet this weekend...I'll look for some 1 1/2 lowering blocks.
The ride wasn't a whole lot different than what it was. Still rides good, can't say there was a noticeable difference either way.
pics....
I'm taking it out tonight for it's first night time drive. After this afternoons test drive, I stopped by Kip's to tell him everything seemed fine. When I came out the owner of the leather shop across the street was out taking pics, and asked if I'd back the car up next to his shop so he could get a pic of it under his sign. I did have to tell him what it was.
Significant change. Looks good. Might need to adjust the headlights.
Guys, it is a simple formula to figure how much cutting a spring will stiffen it. You can then measure the unloaded height, calculate the deflection and then the change in ride height. A stock Aerostar spring is almost 50% stiffer than the stock spring to start with, but it is so much shorter that is drops the car dramatically. You can cut a stock a stock spring AND have a softer spring that drops the car somewhere in between. I "ran the numbers" in case I am not happy with the Aerostar springs, stock spindles, ride and ground clearance that I wind up with.... saves a lot of trial and error. I am at 13" right now, no spacer, no bumper, no radiator, no fluids, nor drive time...just saying. :003:
My vote is to leave it where it is. Looks great!
You're a sick man, Lynn. lol
Thanks John,Gary. Yep, I definetly need to adjust the headlights. Hadn't done that at all, and now with the car running downhill, they focus about 15 feet in front of the car.
BTW, tonight I hit a few potholes on the freeway, and the car moved sideways a little. I hadn't noticed the car doing that before. Is that the infamous Bumpsteer I've read about, and could the apparently-lighter-than-I-had-springs and lower drive height be causing that?
did they adjust your caster more positive?lowering the front will move your caster more negative,positive is what you want
Good point....The front end hasn't been realigned yet....that's another shop and another payday, lol. I need to drive it enough to decide if this height is where it's gonna stay.
Looks Good Rich, a little more rake then I would do. Wait on the alignment if you decide to lower the rear or raise the front. Is it going to have a rear bumper?
Rich very nice! The change you feel in bouncing the car is the front suspension is now "working" instead being bound up at full extension. Get the rear dropped before the alignment, if it is me I would go 2" and work from there. With the rear dropped it will change how the car feels and responds. I have not heard/read of any "bump steer" issues with the rack and pinion setup when all else is proper.
The Ranchwagon I had was equipped with Areostar, no spacer and a 2" drop and it did very good on the road, had a very nice stance and did not bottom. The rear springs were still stock circa 1957 as originally equipped. The Areostar springs are progressive, the further they are compressed the firmer they are. This is the only surviving photo I have of it after the new owner did a "scuff and shoot" on it.
Rich, I'd add the 1.5 blocks at the rear and leave it. It looks good. Sits a lot like my yellow car when I ran the 28X10 slicks. It sat lower with the street tires. You will like it, should ride good with no bottoming, unless you are on I-10 in east Louisiana, lol.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-03 20:52
You're a sick man, Lynn. lol
I know.... :003:
BTW, my car sits like yours now and I am planning on the lowering blocks as well.
looks good Rich A little drop i the rear and I suspect you'll be set.
In the next few days I'll get some miles put on it to see if the front end settles any more, which I suspect will be the case. If it does drop as suspected the next thing will be figuring how to raise it. Appearance aside, it's borderline too low now from a driveability/clearance standpoint. A little time will tell.
I picked up a new OBD I and II code reader at the swap meet yesterday. It seems comparable to the 300. units I'd been looking at. It has GM, Ford and Chrysler OBDI connectors as well as the generic OBD II connector. It's made by Autoxray, and the vendor's boxes had Napa SKU/part numbers on them, so I'm guessing it's a new but older model of something that was sold by Napa. He had a dozen or so of them, I paid 100. for it. It has a CD with all the code number info on it and a link to a webpage with repair info based on the code. I'm anxious to play with it a bit. Hopefully, I can use it to figure exactly what and why it's throwing the codes it is. I'm also thinking once I have that exact info, I should be able to get some help from Scott at Ron Francis/Detail Zone on how to correct the problem.
I did talk yesterday at the swap meet with some Denver based guys that do computerized harness work/ computer rmapping/tuning, etc. These guys do Chevy systems, but gave me some contact info for a shop near them that does the same thing for Ford Systems, including remapping, etc. The guys I talked to confirmed what everyone else was saying about my car running in a back up mode/open loop because of the engine codes. He said my performance is probably serverly lacking right now. I can hardly wait to get it up to snuff.
Gonna be a while for both suspension changes (other than lowering blocks) and computer work if needed...I'm gonna be broke for a while.
when i worked for ford in the 80's and 90's,one of my jobs was fixing fuel injection.if you have a question,let me know, i may be able to help
Thanks Gary. I did test the code reader out. I was really impressed...heck, I didn't even have to read the instruction manual as the reader led you thru everyting step by step. I got a total of 16 codes, but some were duplicates, as it listed the codes in memory first. I think I will go back and clear out all the codes then rerun the test after a short drive. Generally speaking, most of the codes were referencing insufficient data/communication between sensors and modules or cpu. One thing my code reader didn't come with is a cable to connect the reader to a pc. Gonna try and find one today. It would be nice to be able to download the read, then print it off.
I bought my car from my mother in law 17 years ago after Johnnie, my father in law, passed away. Yesterday I went over and picked her up for a short ride. It was the first time she had seen it in all those years, and was surprisingly pretty excited about it. She took a bunch of pics to send to John's brother. Unfortunatly, it wasn't too good of a demo ride. With the extra person the car was bottoming out quite easily at drainage dips in the road. To make matters worse, my horn started beeping on it's own..that's a first, did it three times yesterday. Probably something in the steering column wiring. No biggie, just a little embarassing.
So, another new problem, and confirmation that my front suspension ain't gonna cut it the way it is now.
yes i agree,clear the codes,test drive,read codes again.deal with the hard codes first, memory codes second.hope this helps
Rich.....Remember I have that set of new springs that are shorter than what you had in the car. With 1/2 coil out, they are 14 1/4 tall and wire size of .715 to .720. The price is right so if your car will do the Ok. weekend, and you want to try them, I'll bring then down. If you need them sooner, I'll send them for the price of the freight. Sent me a business address to ship to as it really cuts the freight cost.
We both need to start getting loose ends wrapped up. Hope to get mine back from upholstery in the next day or so. Just missed three beautiful days that it could have been out on the hoist getting a bunch done. Oh well.
I'll get back to you on that, Doug. I'm a little under the weather today..flu/cold?? I sure appreciate the offer. I need to dig the springs out from the trunk that were on the car and see exactly what they are.
I have been driving the car almost daily for an hour or more. No new major issues coming up, just some small ones I need to start taking care of. I'm pretty confident the car won't have any problems for the OK trip, just stuff like not liking the way the car is handling/riding/responding now, but I am getting use to it. Some of the things that bothered me before, like the tranny downshifting, and maybe the exhaust a bit too loud, I am not hardly noticing now.
Rich, we returned from a trip to Moore, OK a couple of weeks ago. The roads in Oklahoma, in my opinion, will defiantly provide you with a shakedown test. Good luck!
We'll get to check it out first hand before too long, but in the meantime, just had my own shakedown test....front tire blowout at 70 mph! Car reacted amazingly well, kept straight as an arrow til I got it off the road. No spare, no jack, nobody I knew had their cell phones on. Called a tow truck, was there in 20 minutes, towed me 15 miles or so home, and only charged me 50 bucks! 4 people stopped to see if they could help, luckily the first one had internet on their phone so I could call a tow company. The last one to stop was the Highway Patrol, who initially drove by since I wasn't trying to flag them down. LOL...they told me they came back so they could check out my car!
Anyway, I hope I haven't lost a wheel along with the tire. The outside rim doesn't look bad, but I don't know about the inside rim. I suspect my front end alighnment was out more than I thought, causing the tire to overheat. The other front tire looks oddly worn as well. Shoulda been paying more attention.
I have noticed with mine that if I drive it once a month, it takes a while to adjust to the handling, but if I drive it every day, it handles just fine. I suspect you are finding the same thing. these cars just don't drive like a 2015 no mater what we do to them. mine was much more noticeable before I got the caster up close to where it should be so if you haven't aligned the front end yet you will probably be in for a pleasant surprise once you do.
Wow - a blowout at 70, I'm glad there wasn't significant damage. Even if the wheel is toast, it sounds to me like somebody is looking out for you. Were they old tires? Or are thinking it's just related to the alignment being really off?
Rich
I'm happy that you were able to keep it under control and get it off to the side of the road. Jay
The tires had less than 1000 miles on them. I need to look at the other front tire a little closer, but I'm pretty sure it's got some strange wear on it also, so my guess is although it didn't feel like the alignment was off, it was enough to cause a problem. I was feeling a little under the weather today, so went out for a ride just to get some time in on the road and enjoy the 70 degree weather. Maybe tommorrow I'll feel more like getting under there and looking around, change the tire to a spare, etc.
Yeah, Doug...exactly how I've been feeling about the handling. The more I drove it the more it felt ok...just getting use to it. I was trying to save some $ and hadn't got the car realigned since the new springs were put in, because I knew it was coming apart again before too long. I guess the silver lining was how well the car responded to the blowout made me feel alot better about the safety factor.
Thanks Jay...it all happened so fast I just sat there for 30 seconds absorbing it all in as to what just happened. I was on the loop around Amarillo that is the bypass trucking route, so I was just thankful I wasn't next to a big rig or have one on my tail. With that thought in mind, I have noticed the truckers don't crawl up on me in the '57 like they do in my DD driver.
i have seen when the camber is really out[tilt in or out at top],tires lasting less than 1000 miles
Got mine aligned last fall to the required specs after the Aerostar spring install from stock and 2" blocks in the back. Took a bunch of shimming (+9/16"), only just enough thread left to bury the nuts. You can see the amount of original shims that were in there.
I ended up putting a one inch spacer above the springs this winter as it was just riding too low and bottoming out (3/8" above the bump stops). I also pulled the 2" lowering blocks and replacing with 1" instead to get the rake a little better looking, then getting another alignment as soon as it warms up.
Glad to hear you made out OK, good driving, a blowout at that speed would of had me going into cardiac arrest. LOL
Rich was the pot hole you hit with the same tire or the opposite side? If it was the same side there's your issue. How many miles do you have on the car/tires?
I have some serious doubts that alignment caused the failure. It would have to be so far out to cause a tire failure that you would have had handling issues.
Back in the day....while doing autocross I ran 2 1/2 degrees of negative camber on my Mustang and still got a semi service life out of the tires. I drove the car from Brunswick, GA to many locations up and down the coast while still using street tires. After getting serious about the racing thing it was track tires and a trailer and I still ran the same alignment specs.
Definetly an alignment problem. Both tires worn down to canvas/steel on inside. The other one wasn't far from giving out...I'm real surprised it held up when the first on blew. The good news is I don't think my wheel was damaged other than a few scrapes on the outer rim. This was a serious case of having my head buried in sand. Need two tires, a coil spring change, and an alignment before the car is driven again.
KYBlueOval and I have been pm'g back and forth about Eaton Springs and John came up with some interesting data I think needs to be posted on the open forum, so later I'll do that. For starters, the info he got on my spring numbers indicates they did in fact send me the correct springs, so my ride height problem seems to be entirely a drivetrain weight issue.
I'm really sorry to hear you ran into a testing problem, thankfully it was only a tire or two loss.
It will be interesting to see what you post about the springs. Something in my mind isn't calculating correctly, if the the OEM type springs you had in had that high of a ride height and the Areo springs with a spacer set it so much lower something isn't right! There are no other variables, engine weight is the same and spindle heights is the same!
This is what John/KYBlueOval sent me after a few back and forth messages:
"Just spoke with Eaton. Here is what they tell me.
My MC 1498 is 13.5 " tall
Your MC 1484 is 16.0 " tall
We knew that , they confirmed it.
The original Ford Spring for a 312 Motor was 14 3/8 " tall
Your spring is taller ( we know that! ) but Softer.
My spring is shorter than stock, but heavier in terms of rate by 70#'s.
I was told that the spring I have will give me a ride height within an 1/8 of an inch of the stock ride height, assuming the same 312 motor. I told them a 312 motor when I ordered them. Should have waited. I'll be using a 351 motor. 312's weight 625#'s , 351's weight 550#'s.
So I have a slightly stiffer spring supporting a slightly lighter ( 75 #'s ) motor.
I might need to cut just a little off of these springs.
The guy with the answers is Gary, ( I spoke to woman that answered the phone.......might be his wife ) and he is not in today. So, I'll try to get him next week. I'll let you know what he says. I feel better about this today than I did yesterday after speaking with Dave.
John
BTW.........Blow out at 70 . You are lucky. Go buy a lottery ticket."
Note John's springs are 2 1/2 inches shorter than mine, but mine are softer. I don't think the weight of my drivetrain was enough to overcome the additional length. I had been posting for a while I thought I had wrong springs sent by Eaton. That was my error because I had written down the length as 15 1/2 which actually was for another spring we were discussing.
If I remember correctly, when we had the Areostars w/ spacer sitting on the floor next to the Eaton MC1484 we were measuring more than a 3 1/2 difference in length. If the lighter weight of my drivetrain has an even lighter affect on the front because of it's positioning, then it's not hard to see where the excess of 4 1/2 drop came from.
Because my Eaton springs are softer, I'm guessing they are a better candidate for cutting some length off it. Hopefully that softness will prevent the spring from being too stiff after shortening.
So...initally before the change to Aerostars, I was 3" higher than I wanted to be. I'm thinking cutting 2" off should get me pretty close to the 3" drop". Any opinions on that?
be careful how much you cut off. on a other project i cut off a 1/2 coil from the spring and it lowered it a little over 1 inch
Cutting an 1 1/2 off mine to begin may be a safer way to start....or I may go for the two and have a set of 1/2" spacers ready (as well as the 1" and the thin isolators I already have).
Also, since I have to buy 2 tires, I'm going to jump up one size from the 205/70/15 to 215/70/15.. I'll have to change brands though, the Hankooks I have on it aren't made that size, but my tire store does have them in Generals. That will add .39 in total width and about 1/4 in height.
Also, I forgot to post last week...I was concerned with the really low stance that I was going to have interference with the tire/battery box which was recessed into the wheel well about 3". I had none, even with the blowout, and the tire flopping around, there were no rub marks on the box paint at all.
EDIT...when I say "cutting an 1 1/2 off mine", I was talking height/inches, not coils.
rich, that's good to hear about the battery box, as i have mine recessed into the inner fender also .
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-12 17:29
This is what John/KYBlueOval sent me after a few back and forth messages:
"Just spoke with Eaton. Here is what they tell me.
My MC 1498 is 13.5 " tall
Your MC 1484 is 16.0 " tall
We knew that , they confirmed it.
The original Ford Spring for a 312 Motor was 14 3/8 " tall
Your spring is taller ( we know that! ) but Softer.
My spring is shorter than stock, but heavier in terms of rate by 70#'s.
I was told that the spring I have will give me a ride height within an 1/8 of an inch of the stock ride height, assuming the same 312 motor. I told them a 312 motor when I ordered them. Should have waited. I'll be using a 351 motor. 312's weight 625#'s , 351's weight 550#'s.
So I have a slightly stiffer spring supporting a slightly lighter ( 75 #'s ) motor.
I might need to cut just a little off of these springs.
The guy with the answers is Gary, ( I spoke to woman that answered the phone.......might be his wife ) and he is not in today. So, I'll try to get him next week. I'll let you know what he says. I feel better about this today than I did yesterday after speaking with Dave.
John
BTW.........Blow out at 70 . You are lucky. Go buy a lottery ticket."
Note John's springs are 2 1/2 inches shorter than mine, but mine are softer. I don't think the weight of my drivetrain was enough to overcome the additional length. I had been posting for a while I thought I had wrong springs sent by Eaton. That was my error because I had written down the length as 15 1/2 which actually was for another spring we were discussing.
If I remember correctly, when we had the Areostars w/ spacer sitting on the floor next to the Eaton MC1484 we were measuring more than a 3 1/2 difference in length. If the lighter weight of my drivetrain has an even lighter affect on the front because of it's positioning, then it's not hard to see where the excess of 4 1/2 drop came from.
Because my Eaton springs are softer, I'm guessing they are a better candidate for cutting some length off it. Hopefully that softness will prevent the spring from being too stiff after shortening.
So...initally before the change to Aerostars, I was 3" higher than I wanted to be. I'm thinking cutting 2" off should get me pretty close to the 3" drop". Any opinions on that?
Rich, if you give me the spring wire diameter, the free length, the coil spacing, diameter, and the number of effective coils of what you have, I will calculate what cutting coil(s) will do to the rate and the installed length. See this web site for clarification. I can use the springs I have for the above measurements, but it would be informative to see what you have.
http://www.bluecoilspring.com/rate.htm
Interesing and easy to comprehend read on that link, Lynn. Thanks. I'll get that info later, only questionable part will be determining where to stop including/measuring/counting the last (touching) coil....my guess is at the point of contact.
here is a copy of the stock front spring information.the b7a-5310-n are stock for a 6 cyl 2door custom.the b7a-5310-e are what my wagon used.the n is taller and the weight at load height is 2125 lbs.the e is shorter and the load height weight is 2025 lbs.but the rates are different 400 for the n and 500 for the e.so the e should put the ride height lower but would be stiffer.i am thinking that the e spring will work better than the spring i put in [i think they are R or a L ]
Here is a link that further explains counting coils. I counted 7 1/2 active coils on my "stock" springs. They are actually from an Edsel.
http://springipedia.com/compression-counting-coils.asp
Based on: Wire Diameter .697"
Mean Coil Diameter 4.764"
Active Coils 7.5
CALCULATED SPRING RATE = 409 lbs/inch
The specified compressed height of the spring at standard ride height is 9.6". I measured a free length of 15" which means the load needed to compress the spring from 15" to 9.6" is 5.4 x 409= 2208.6 lbs.
If I cut 2 coils off of the spring the new spring rate jumps up to 558 lbs/inch
Now the "new" spring free length is 11 3/4" (measured). The 2208.6 lbs load will compress the cut spring 4". That gives an installed length at "design load" of 11.75 - 4 = 7.75". That compared to the 9.6" is about 1 7/8" more but that will lower the car more than that based on the lower control arm geometry. I believe the car will be lowered by roughly 1.5 times the additional spring compression. Cutting two coils will lower the car 1 7/8 x 1.5 or around 2 7/8".
This excersize shows that you lower the car by almost the same amount that you shorten the stock spring. For me that is an unexpected result.
So....I understand(at least following) pretty much what you're doing above, but in the case where you don't know the load ??
In other words, your spring was made to compress to the std ride height with a load of 2208. lbs. In the case of my drivetrain being set back further than normal, I'm not sure that going thru all the calculations is going to be accurate since we don't acuually know anything about the weight on the front of our cars except the difference in drivetrain weights, which does not include factors for weight distribution differences. Also....2208 lb load??? wouldn't that be doubled since there are two springs?? so 4416 lb load on the front when our Customs only weigh 3450ish total? I'm so confused.
I'm really liking the idea now of cut some and try it, lol.
My springs btw:
.70 wire size
coil space (cl to cl) 2 5/8
OL 16 1/8
OD 5.43
8 active coils (I think)
I thought you might ask about that load! Basically that load is the load on the spring and NOT the weight of the car on that corner. The lower control arm carries the weight of the car at the centerline of the tire and is acts as a lever to compress the spring. The distance between the "pivot line" of the inboard bushings and spring center is compared to the distance from that "pivot line" to the tire centerline. For example if inner distance to the spring is 6" and the distance to the tire is 12" the weight of the car at the corner is multiplied by 12/6 or 2. In other words a corner weight of 750 lbs becomes a 1500 lb spring force.
The same principle also means that a 1" spring compression corresponds to a 2" suspension movement using that same ratio.
Now since I was trying to demonstrate much cutting a spring would drop the car, I needed a reference load to get close so I used Ford's spring info that standard compressed length is 9.6" as a base value. Since your car is lighter, that compressed spring length would be longer as a starting point but the CHANGE in that value due to cutting the spring should br pretty close. (I also guessed the control arm ratio to be 1.5 for the calculations I made).
Ok, so now I will try to use closer numbers and your values and actually measure the control arm. THE MADNESS CONTINUES.... :003:
Here we go.....
YOUR spring rate calculated to 399 lbs/inch. That matches the lighter factory springs.
The 16 1/8 free height is about 1" to 1 1/2" higher than the factory spring. (Depending on which 400 lb spring you compare it to.)
I measured my control arm. I got 8 1/4" from the inner pivot line to the spring centerline. I measured 17 1/2" from the inner pivot point to the center of the tire (tread). The control arm "lever factor" is 2.12.
As a check, looking at the factory "Capacity at Normal Loaded Height" for spring loads, they run from a low of 2075 to 2500 lbs. Using the 2.12 factor above these spring loads translate to 979 to 1179 lbs front LOADED corner weights. That seems very reasonable and correct.
Now lets assume you reduced your front corner weight by 100 lbs over the lightest factory value. You corner weight is 879 lbs and your spring load is 879 x 2.12 or 1864 lbs.
Your spring would compress by 1864/399 or 4.67" from the 16 1/8" free length giving you an installed spring height of 11.45 inches. Compare this to the stock length of 9.6" and your spring is almost 1 7/8" longer than that. That translates to a suspension height of 1 7/8" x 2.12 or 3" HIGHER THAN STOCK.
If you cut 1 coil.... Spring rate 456 lbs/in
Free length 13.5 " (using your coil spacing)
Installed height 9.4"
Suspension drop 4.35"
Wow.....and the scary part is I'm understanding/following what you did. OK, well, it's obvious I do not want to remove a complete active coil, I'd end up back where I am now. but the next thing to figure out is exactly what it is I am cutting off. The flat/ground end of the spring has a complete inactive coil on it, but not so clear cut on the bottom end. The coil's spiral angle on that last coil decreases so the last coil is not fully active because the spacing is closer, but not entirely inactive either. I figured a half coil.
So, the new confusion is....the calculations tell you how much cutting an active coil changes things, but how do you figure out how much a partially active coil changes the function?
My current thoughts are, cutting that first full coil off is not the equivalent of cutting a full active coil so removal of that first coil is not going to drop the suspension the same 4.35.
Removing that first complete coil, if it IS considered inactive would reduce the overall lenth of the spring by .950. I'm going to (probably wrongfully) assume here removing an inactive coil does not affect the spring rate, only the physical shortening of the spring.?, so .950x 2.12+approx 2". Now, if I want a 3" drop from where it was, I need an additional 1", an that will come from removing a portion...23%...of the active coil.
If I have followed your math with any comprehension at all, I'm concluding along with the said assumptions that if I remove the first inactive coil and 1/4 of the next one,
I may be/should be /probably won't be/ close to the 3" drop I need. Which by the way, is pretty darn close to the 1 1/2 I was talking about removing for the first trial and error. 2.625 x .23% =.95=1.55
This is my understanding of where you are...
You have 3" drop spindles?
With the the "stock" springs you have (when originally installed) you were sitting higher than stock.
You would like a 3" drop from actual stock.
The Aerostar springs you have now are too low.
If you cut the 16 1/8" spring from where it is now to a free length of 13 1/2" (one coil) it should compress to an installed length of 9.4" or slightly lower than stock, leaving you with a 3" spindle drop. The 4.35" is from where it was.... (which was substantially higher than stock). http://springipedia.com/compression-counting-coils.asp says that an open ended coil is counted as a full coil. and a ground end is not counted. Now what we have is "close" to a pure open ended coil so cutting a little more might be in order. Best course of action is measure to 13 1/2" free length and see how many coils that actually is. and we can refigure the spring rate. The 8 active coil number you gave me calculated the rate to a Ford book number, so it is probably correct. Do you know the Eaton spring rate for what you have?
Correct any info that I have wrong and I will run the numbers again. Now that we have some geometry numbers the calculation is simpler.
PS, I am probably going to do the same thing on my car eventually.
You have 3" drop spindles? 2 1/2 actually
With the the "stock" (eaton)springs you have (when originally installed) you were sitting higher than stock. yes, about 1 1/4 higher than oem I believe, even with the dropped spindles
You would like a 3" drop from actual stock. No, 3" from where it was with the Eaton's
The Aerostar springs you have now are too low. yes, an inch to inch and a half too low
Got it. I will "run the numbers" tomorrow. :003:
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-15 14:02
You have 3" drop spindles? 2 1/2 actually
With the the "stock" (eaton)springs you have (when originally installed) you were sitting higher than stock. yes, about 1 1/4 higher than oem I believe, even with the dropped spindles
You would like a 3" drop from actual stock. No, 3" from where it was with the Eaton's
The Aerostar springs you have now are too low. yes, an inch to inch and a half too low
Rich, I spoke with Gary at Eaton Spring yesterday regarding my springs, looking for confirmation that they would work with the engine/trans combination I've decided to use. Gary was more than willing to exchange my springs, IF I wanted to try a different spring. I'm going to use what I have, as the spring that he would exchange it for, would add an additional 1 inch in drop, to the 2 1/2 I'm getting from the spindle.
Before you start cutting, you might want to call Gary and inquire as to what he can do. Just a suggestion.
John
I've talked with them several times......I got mine way too long ago for them to do an exchange. He did tell me they had a spring that would lower my car 2" from where it was, but that's still going to make it an inch too high, so I'd need to pay full $, plus shipping, just to try it. In all likelyhood, that spring would have been better than what I had, but still not right, so I'd end up cutting anyway.
That part number he was talking about was MC1364. "2" or more drop from what you have now" were his exact words. That is the only "stock" spring from eaton's he talked about as a posible fix. So, anything beyond that I guess would be getting into custom made.
This whole front spring thing is a fiasco. After all my searching and calculations I didn't find any replacement spring that would work with the 2 1/2 Granada spindle drop and ended up using the OEM springs, I would have proffered new but I just couldn't find what would work off the shelf.
Here we go.... again: :003:
Ok the numbers actually work out very well.
The Eaton springs based on your info would have had an installed compressed height of 11.4". That would have given you
1 1/4" higher than "stock" even with 2 1/2" dropped spindles. The spring load calculates to 1900 lbs., close to the weight estimates I used earlier. To get a 3" drop below that you would need an installed compressed height of approximately 10". that would give you a drop (with the spindles) of 1 3/4" lower than stock or 3" lower than Eatons with the dropped spindles.
If you cut 3/4 of a coil, the spring rate becomes 441 lbs/inch. The free spring length becomes 16 1/8 - 2 5/8 x .75 = 14". The installed compressed length would be 14 - 4.3 or 9.7"
Cutting 1 coil Rate 456, Free length 13.5, Installed compressed height 9.33
Cutting 1/2 coil Rate 425, Free length 14.8, Installed compressed height 10.3
I would shoot for a free length of 14 1/4 , mark that spot and see how much of a coil(s) to cut off.
Because of the geometry of that first coil, trimming to free length of 14 1/4 would remove pretty close to 1 1/2 coils. At least that for sure gets it into full open coil for the math
With 'our' previous calculations, I had mentioned I thought 1 1/4 coils would be a good place to start, so I'm good with the -1 1/2 coils/-1 7/8"/14 1/4 as a final estimate.
I'm going to find some 1/2" spacer/osolators to have on hand in case needed, and cut the springs to the 14 1/4. I'm not sure when the actual replacement is going to happen, depends on when Kip has some shop time open...may not be until the 2nd week in March after we get back from Phoenix.
I ordered two new tires yesterday. They were able to order the next size up for me in the same brand. So now my new front tire size will be 215/70/15's. They should be here Friday.
I'm having a heck of a time finding lowering blocks for our cars...most of the blocks available for "2 inch leaf springs" are actually 2 1/2". I see that as an issue with the rubber/sheetmetal isolator pads not fitting, as well as the fact they are not solid, but thin walled, so the outer walls would actually not even contact the spring. Am I missing something here? I thought this would be really easy, but I'm finding most of the speed shops don't even carry them. WTH??
I think the problem all along has been the free length of the Eaton springs. Two of the Factory springs are less than 14" although they are 500 lb/inch springs. If you cut 1/1/2 coils the rate goes to 491 lbs/inch and the installed height goes to 10.4". Now that doesn't match the other numbers but it is because that first coil spacing is not the same as the other ones. I assumed an even coil spacing of 2 5/8" and we know that is not exactly correct. That assumption makes the free lengths shorter than they actually would be. This is where the trial and error effort begins. It looks like you have a good starting point to me. The numbers are simply to give an educated guess as to where to start. My opinion is cut the free length to 14 1/4" if anything it MAY be a little higher than you want.
Agreed.....when it gets done I'll post the results. Thanks a ton Lynn!! At least when I'm done I'll have recorded info on everything to help at least the guys with the 4.6 drivetrain.
I ordered a set of 1" blocks for the back, and got the springs cut to 14 1/4. Not sure if Kip's shop will be able to get them on in the next week before the Phoenix trip.
Rich,
For possible future reference, where'd you end up getting the 1" blocks from? Didn't see it mentioned here and saw you asking around on the hamb as well.
I bought the only ones I could find that were close to the 2" width...I called and they told me they were 2 3/16 with a 9/16 pin. I should be able to make those work with a light trimming. They are not solid as I was hoping to find. I probably should have just picked up some 1 x 2 alum bar locally and made them.... depending on how she looks with the next front height adjustment, I may elect not to use them anyway. Just want to have them on hand to get odds and ends finished up before April1.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161388952509?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
got the cut coils put on today and the ride height is pretty darn close to where I wanted...Maybe as much as an inch higher than I wanted as a "LOW". Right now it's at 14" fender opening to spindle center. I have a 2" rake along the rockers. It looks right. I suspect it'll settle 1/2" or so from where it's at after I get it realigned and can drive it a bit. I'm not going to change the back either. Best part is, the mile or so that I drove it when I picked it up showed an obvious improvement in handling. It feels more like it did when it was too high, but better. It just feels right....both handling and appearance.
The new ride height is currently 2 1/2" higher than the Aerostars with spacer, and 2" lower than with the coils uncut.
AWESOME! Check the clearance now from ground to sway bar. Mine is at 5 1/2" and I'm still hitting parking lot wheel stops :005:
I was going to measure that before I put it up but I forgot..sorry. Can't measure it where it's at now.
that is good news rich
Yep...one pita thing checked off the list.
A pic of the new ride height/rake, and the larger replacement front tires, and one for a visual record of the 14 1/4 coil cut dimension.
Lynn...you were right on....I believe you said something like "should get you pretty close, maybe a little taller if anything". Thanks again.
Great info Rich. The car looks righteous! I think the "numbers" worked out well. :003:
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-02-23 21:36
Yep...one pita thing checked off the list.
A pic of the new ride height/rake, and the larger replacement front tires, and one for a visual record of the 14 1/4 coil cut dimension.
Lynn...you were right on....I believe you said something like "should get you pretty close, maybe a little taller if anything". Thanks again.
Rich.......when you have time can you please summarize all you have here and have done and the resulting "Height Measurements", and sway bar clearances.
Things like , 1 1/2" Drop em Stop em Spindles, $*%6 Coil Spring, cut to XX height, wheel specs, tire specs, plus the various heights and clearances. I would appreciate it and I think other would as well.
Thanks
John
I'm heading to Arizona shortly...will do that when I get there. That request reminded me to bring all my passwords so I can get on my aunt's computer.
That rake looks great to me, that's how I like them. Mine is similar but a little lower due to the 14" wheels and tires..
Quote from: KYBlueOval on 2016-02-24 06:48
Rich.......when you have time can you please summarize all you have here and have done and the resulting "Height Measurements", and sway bar clearances.
Things like , 1 1/2" Drop em Stop em Spindles, $*%6 Coil Spring, cut to XX height, wheel specs, tire specs, plus the various heights and clearances. I would appreciate it and I think other would as well.
Thanks
John
John, I will be happy to do the numbers if I know what you have and what you are looking for. The Aerostar springs I have have my car sitting too low so I will either use spacers or cut my springs.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-02-24 10:23
John, I will be happy to do the numbers if I know what you have and what you are looking for. The Aerostar springs I have have my car sitting too low so I will either use spacers or cut my springs.
Lynn........tell me what you need to know in order to "run the numbers", and I'll see what I have and what info. I can obtain from Eaton. I have Eaton springs, but it is a different spring than Rich has used.
John
All I need is the wire diameter, the spring outside diameter, the free length, and the coil spacing. A photo would help in counting the number of active coils. You do not count the flat coil (top), but you count the rest up to the very end of the open coil (bottom). See this link for the active (free) coil thing.
http://springipedia.com/compression-counting-coils.asp
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-02-24 12:20
All I need is the wire diameter, the spring outside diameter, the free length, and the coil spacing. A photo would help in counting the number of active coils. You do not count the flat coil (top), but you count the rest up to the very end of the open coil (bottom). See this link for the active (free) coil thing.
http://springipedia.com/compression-counting-coils.asp
Lynn.........I'm not ignoring you sir. I'll get the information soon. Posting photos here is admittedly a challenge for me. But I'll try again when I get all the necessary information for you.
No problem, your schedule. A picture is not necessary just another set of eyes counting active coils. BTW, I think we hijacked Rich's thread, we should start another one....
checking in from Phoenix....picked up a set of seat belts at Socal Friday that should work pretty well. I've got to get them installed before my wife will go out for a drive.
Drove my car a little today on bumpy roads to make sure the springs were settled in before alignment tomorrow. Glad I did, the car settled about 1/2"- 3/4 up front to a 13 1/4-13 1/2 spindle to fender height. Exactly what I was hoping for.
Had another issue pop up though. My volt meter is going all the way over after the engine runs for 15 seconds or so. At first I thought it might just be my gages, but I also noticed when I have the A/C fan on, it stops blowing when the gage moves up. Any suggestions from you electrical guys??
the gage still moves up even if the fan isn't on. I'm thinking I need to start pulling fuses until the gage returns to normal position to figure out what circuit is causing the problem. If it were a short, wouldn't it be blowing a fuse??
Check volts at the battery while it is running. You might have a bad voltage regulator inside the alternator. Should be about 14- 14.5 If it spikes at the battery you will see it .Also too high of voltage will drain your water out of your battery.If everything looks good there then it must be in the circuit from the alternator to the dash gauge. A bad regulator will overcharge as well as undercharge.
Thanks...my car will be in the alignment shop tommorrow, but I'll check that out when I get it back.
Got the car back from alignment...sure handles great. He said the Toe was off quite a bit.
Electrical problem:.....I checked the battery, it was at 13.1 volts with engine off. With engine running it checked out at 17.2 v. Got to be the internal regulator in the alternator, right??
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-03-09 12:19
Got the car back from alignment...sure handles great. He said the Toe was off quite a bit.
Electrical problem:.....I checked the battery, it was at 13.1 volts with engine off. With engine running it checked out at 17.2 v. Got to be the internal regulator in the alternator, right??
I would think so. If the battery is low, the voltage might creep up a bit while charging the battery back up, but 17.2 sounds high to me under all cases. I agree that sounds like internal regulator to me.
Online rebuilt alternators start about 165.! Mine is at a local starter/alternator shop being rebuilt now. I'll have it back tomorrow...65 for a total rebuild.
Thanks for the input, Bill...we'll know for sure tomorrow, lol.
Any update? Did they verify the regulator was bad and replace it?
As it turned out, they did not have the parts in stock, so he's going to try for tomorrow. I hope so, so I don't lose the wekend. I do have a spare complete engine, but it hasn't run for 7 years or so. I could pull the alternator off it just to see if it works.
My daily driver got sideswiped this morning by a hit and run driver, so that shot most the day getting estimates, etc.
While I'm waiting on the alternator, I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with my horns, and also working on getting my bugeye headlight rings buffed out and mounted.
I'm sorry to hear about your daily driver, that sucks. An alternator that hasn't been used in a few years would still work fine, but why bother if you are getting a fresh rebuilt one tomorrow anyway.
However if it doesn't come through, you certainly could use it through the weekend.
My whole week has been like that. Tonight I noticed the parking lights were on in my DD/Subaru. all switches are off! I had to pull the neg battery cable. I'm guessing it's the multifunction switch on the steering colum.
Some success today....got the rebuit alternator back from the shop and put in. Volts never got over 14 on the gage. I haven't verified it with the meter yet, but appears to be good. They did call me this morning to tell me the cost would be 98, not 65. The alternator is a 120 amp Lincoln unit, and they had quoted me the 65 based on a Ford alternator (my error actually, when I first went in I asked if they rebuilt Ford alternators with internal v regulators).
I took it out for a 30 mile spin around town. Really handles much better with the new ride height and alignment. I'm not sure if the next size wider replacement tires I went to (215/70-15) made a difference in the handling one way or another, but they sure look better.
I'll be anxious to get the engine codes eliminated and see if I can get this thing to idle a bit lower. Driving around town, I've got to keep my foot on the brake to keep it in the 30mph range where needed. I'm told there is no physical way of adjusting the idle speed on an efi...??
I've been working on my horn electrical problem today finally. A while back when I was driving it, the horns just started beeping all on their own...eventually blew the fuse. Reasoning and confirming that the issue has to be between the horn button and the fuse panel, which does have a built in relay, I started eliminating sections of the wiring as potential sources of the problem/short. I do have a identical unused relay on the panel, and I did switch them out just to confirm it wasn't a faulty relay, and it wasn't. There is a connector for the horn wires up close to the steering wheel, and unplugging that eliminated the problem, so that should indicate the short is not before the connector. There are actually two wires on that connector, a brown, which is ground, and a pink which I guess has to be ground also, but I need to confirm that on the schematic and see where that goes/comes from. That's where I'm at now. Tomorrow I'll pull the covers of the Mustang steering column and get a look at the wiring on the backside of the ribbon/coil. I guess that coil could also be a potential source of the problem.
This is likely way out in left field, but I recently had issue with a Continental horn tooting sporadically and throwing codes. I had no history on the car but it had light frontal damage but not enough to deploy the air bags. It turned out that the collision had caused the driver to hit the steering wheel hard enough to start to collapse the steering column. It wasn't visible but enough to intermittently short stuff out and set codes. Probably not your issue but maybe your column was whacked a little too hard!
Not that far fetched, Gary. I had columns from two Mustangs. One had an exploded air bag, the other did not. I believe it was the exploded one I used because the first one I got had damage to the ignition key switch and plastic covers from someone jimmying the lock to steal it. More importantly because this type of a steering column is not collapsible in the areas where the wiring runs, and all the wiring was replaced anyways, EXCEPT for the ribbon coil. If I ended up using the ribbon coil from the one with a deployed airbag, it could have had damage to it that is not visible.
I did not get into the column today to check it out. Was spending too much time driving it!!....and finding new issues.
New issue for today: three times after driving the car for 1/2 hour or so and shutting it down, it would not start. No starter/solenoid engagement at all. The first time I was at Dunkin Donuts and spent a while checking wires, etc After about 15 minutes it finally connected and started right up. When I got home it wouldn't engage again. After 1/2 hour it kicked right over. Just to see if there was consistency, I took it out again for 1/2 hour. Same thing, when I got home and tried restarting, I couldn't get starter engagement until 20 minutes later. I don't have a clue where to look. The ignition switch (and key switch are the old oem Mustang stuff, I don't know if an ignition switch can heat up and cause the problem...I'm more apt to think it's in the solenoid/starter that I recently replaced with a rebuilt unit. Tomorrow I'm going to check the wiring and grounds connections.
Just cause I built this thing doesn't mean I can fix it.
The description sounds exactly like an old Chevy problem where the solenoid gets overheated from the headers. I always thought it was funny one of the easy fixes for that is to install a ford solenoid and bypass the one on the starter. It may not have any relevance to the problem you are having, but it might be more evidence that your suspicion of your starter/solenoid is correct.
My car was doing that as well, turned out to be a loose engine to frame ground on mine. Checking the grounds is a good idea.
My solenoid is on the starter, and the exhaust runs within a few inches of it. Later today I'm going to jack the car up so I can get down there to check the ground straps, etc. I'm also going to stuff a fabric welding heat shield between the exhaust and the solenoid and take it for a ride to see if that resolves the issue.
I did the above...didn't help.
Is your horn working? I don't know the year of your computer set up but after 1996 the horn acts as a capacitor for the computer. That's why it is always hot. Horn works without a key and honks whether on or off.This also keeps the memory in the computer.If you have a theft deterent type set up it may be going into that.If your throwing codes you need to get the horn to work then your computer will reset.
Wow, that's interesting., but no, my system is 1995. Also no, I haven't got the horn to work yet.
Sounds like you're into this computer stuff....be careful how you answer, Albuquerque isn't that far, lol! Theft deterent system...no pats, other than that I'm not aware of anything in the computer. Nothing was added to the car as aftermarket theft deterent. Also, the horn isn't a new issue. The fuse has been blown for 6 weeks or so. The no start when hot issue started right after I had the problem with the alternator overcharging.....may be a tie-in there?
Unfortunately I have to set the car aside for a few days in favor of house cleaning duties. We just found out we have relatives coming in Wednesday. This is always fun since we converted our second bedroom to a huge closet. Guests = we sleep on the couches!
Finally got something fixed...my horn is now working, and the best part, it's only working when I want it to, lol. It was the clockspring/electrical coil. probably shorted out from previous damage from the airbag going off in the donor car, as Gasman suggested. I found one in the local u pull it yard that was in a car that did not have the airbag exploded. (easy to tell, all the exploded airbags are still there, all the undeployed ones have been removed.)
I did also replace the ignition switch to see if that was the cause of my hot start issue. I now have positive proof that was NOT the issue. I also picked up a new starter mount solenoid, but have not talked myself into jacking up the car and being a contortionist to get it installed. At this point, I'm 90% sure I'll end up adding a remote solenoid. I'm trying to figure out where I can put the remote and still use my $100 battery to starter cables.
I'm thinking that you're not gaining anything by adding a remote starter relay. The 4.6 style of starter still requires an operating solenoid bolted to the top of the starter. If the OEM solenoid on top of the starter IS the problem, it will still be a problem with the addition of a remote starter relay.
I was also wondering about some of your drivability issues. Do you have a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT? It sounds like you're running in open loop. If I remember correctly, you remove some of the systems...EGR, catalytic converters, one set of O2 sensors, converted to COP, and maybe some other stuff. Did you have the ECU reburned/recalibrated to support these changes?
Thanks for the reply, Gary.
Apparently this was a common problem and fix with the Chevy people, as bill5string said. since staring my inquiry, I've had 1/2 dozen guys tell me the same thing, and actually the starter/alternator shop here in town also told me that. Her's a link to a how to do it article I found that explains the "why it works" better than I could.
www.novaresource.org/starter.htm
Yes, I do have a check engine light, and a code reader connector plug. The ce light comes on after about a minute of driving. The engine code /open loop stuff I had to but a bit further down the priority list. The only issues so far (when it is driving) are it is in open loop, but actually liveable for now. I just don't have the power at heavy throttle. The open loop is because of the engine codes being thrown.
I kept all of the EGR stuff, actually replaced all of the old egr valve, solenoid, etc. with new stuff before I put the engine in because I knew it would be nearly imposible to reach once the engine was in place.
I did remove the catalytic converters and the two rear o2 sensors, but the Ron Francis kit supposidly was designed for that mod.
I did convert it to a simulated cop. The computer thinks it is sending one signal to a coil pack which normally fires two cylinders. All the replacement conversion harness does is physically send that signal onto 2 wires feeding the appropriate 2 cop's.
A true cop conversion would have to have a cop based computer that sends out 8 signals instead of 4. Could there be an issue there?? absolutly, but it'll take a shop set up to work with OBD I systems to check it out. There are no such shops in this area, hopefully some time in the next year, I'll get it up to Denver where it can be checked out. LOL...just need to refind that contact info I had.
One guy in Phoenix I talked to who knows these systems said he suspected a bad maf sensor, based on the codes I could remember it throwing. I did put in a new MAF sensor also, but we all know that doesn't necessarily mean it was a good one.....one of the problems with trying to check out a complete build all at the same time....you just don't know which component of a system to target.
just to add.....I really went thru alot of work/extra effort to keep this car set up with a factory unmodified computer. The Ron Francis kit was suppose to do that. My reasoning is simple..I didn't want to be broken down on the road somewhere 1k miles from home needing a computer that was reflashed by someone who can't be found any more. I have a back up computer sitting on the shelf now, and will look for another. I did recently find out these computers can sit up to 20 years not hooked to power and still remember/hold the oem programming. Some time down the road, I'll have to switch computers just to recharge them.
When I can get to it, I'll need to determine if my issues are bad engine components, a miswiring, or a RF harness problem. My lack of mechanical/electrical experience sure ain't helping any! I'll start by clearing the codes it has stored and getting a fresh readout after a drive, then calling Ron Francis with the results to see if he has any recommended solutions/areas to check.
What I am finding out now about the scarcity of shops that can work on OBD I systems, is probably the ideal year, at least as far as Mark VIII's are concerned, is probably 1996. It's the first year for OBD II and pre pats.
I may end up having to have the computer modified, but I'll do what ever to avoid it if posible. Actually the biggest annoyance right now is the idle speed. I've been told the idle speed cannot be manually adjusted, it's controlled by the computer. My throttle cable/body seems to be working freely, but the car idles at 35mph once it starts rolling. A pain in traffic, and obviously not good for the brakes.
The oem Mark VIII catalytic converters that were removed, btw, came right off the exhaust manifolds and had heat shields built in to them. I think that's the reason I'm having hot start issues, or it could be just caused by a cheap rebuild of the Advance Auto starter/solenoid I put in when I was wiring the car up.
I have already purchased a new oem starter mounted solenoid. That may resolve the issue in itself...I just don't hold out much hope, and until I found out about the computers needing a solenoid with suppression diodes, adding the remote solenoid seemed like the best fix.
...and you say you're not computer literate!!!! If not, you'll get there.
I've been looking at one of the Ron Francis Telorvek kits for '96 4.6 Cobra. It is a different kit than yours. The Cobra kit requires ECM reflash. So every time I make a change, ECM goes off to RF for reflash at $350.00. I've been asking around about using an aftermarket, user programmable ECM like FAST, BIG GULP, etc. I'm pleased with the RF chassis harness and RF is the only 4.6 harness supplier I've shopped so far. TIP: When ordering RF chassis harness, stress extra long wires...especially taillight and headlight wires.
My thought on the idle speed is directly related to running in open loop. If other fault/faults were fixed to get into closed loop, the idle would come around. Google (or other search engine) is your best friend. Search "1995 Lincoln 4.6" and your code or condition. If you have a problem, somebody else has had the problem. It has been asked and answered on some forum somewhere.
As far as the catalytic converters having heat shields and the need for replacing the heat shields, the cats were much hotter than a straight through exhaust pipe. But there are a ton of heat shield products on the market. A piece of aluminum or steel sheet can easily be fabbed with an air gap and attached to the suspect section of pipe with a couple of hose clamps to reflect heat away from the starter.
we need to see some codes.with the codes i can help give you guidance on where to look for the problem.i am surprised that there is no one in your aria to work on obd 1,it is a simpler system in some ways.
Thanks, Gary!
Thanks, Gary!
I've got the car jacked up inside today trying to fit the lap belts. I'll get the car out in the next few days, clear the codes, and run new ones.
I was just sent a message by a Hamb member who is the guy that owns the alternator/starter shop in town that rebuilt my alternator last week. He's going to search for a solenoid with suppression diodes, said he was pretty sure they were available. cool. I was planning on lots of calls tomorrow looking for one.
if i remember correctly all of the late 80's and 90's fords with fuel injection and the remote[fender mounted]starter relay had the diodes in the relays
I am really curious about how all this works out. I read a post about doing this on GM and it seems the purpose of the remote solenoid is to relay the actuating voltage to the existing solenoid as opposed to the direct voltage to the existing solenoid? Seems wierd. The reason that I ask is I have a new MSD starter for my FE and it has a solenoid mounted on it. The wiring diagram shows it hooked up like the post I read. I feel like I am missing something...???
I can shed a little light on the GM issue: the GM solonoid also doubles as a relay, passing high voltage to the starter motor. The problem is that when they get hot (from headers), the relay part doesn't work well. But if you wire up a ford Solonoid (which is really a relay) between the battery and the starter, and just wire all three wires on the GM solonoid together. then as soon as the Ford solonoid passes power to the unit, the solonid gets power to kick the starter gear out, and the starter motor gets power to spin the engine. However, the relay curcuit is bypassed, which is the weak link in the system.
Long winded, but I hope it helps.
I'm using a PowerMaster starter which is similar to the MSD start in that they both have the solenoid/relay attached to the starter. I jumper wired the positive starter post to the starter solenoid wire. The starter and solenoid are both activated at the same time via a Ford late model, HD relay (with diode) in the trunk next to the battery. This is done to eliminate a 'hot' cable running nearly the length of the car rather than a heat soak problem.
Update...my local guy here found a relay with suppression diodes. It should be here by end of the week.
In the mean time, my hot start issue has move up to a no start issue, regarless of how long the car sits. I've spent 3 hours this afternoon , first, trying to replace the solenoid with the starter still in the car. That wasn't working...not sure why, but just can't get the plunger on the solenoid to get over/into the slot on the starter thingy. Most of the time spent has been trying to get at the third bolt on the starter. I'm going to give it one more shot before putting the tools up for the night.
I guess at this stage I'm just hoping the total problem is a bad solenoid, and not totally to do with excess heat. I also bought some exhaust wrap to help with the heat issue. The remote starter on order I'm getting as a backup in case replacing the starter mounted solenoid doesn't do the trick.
Anyway, had the car not turned into a no start issue in the driveway, I would have had a shop with a lift do the work....this is really difficult on jackstands.
OK, to get this straight in my mind... there are a few things going on when the switch is turned to start the car..
1) At an electrical relay... a small wire (from the switch) causes a large battery connection to be made directly from
the battery to the motor that starts the car.
2) At the starter motor, gears on the starter motor physically engage the gears on that starter motor to the flywheel.
On 57's those two things are accomplished by two different things... one is the starter relay that is mounted on the fenderwell for function one. The second one is accomplished at the starter by the Bendix drive, a mechanical device.
GM cars have traditionally used a solenoid that does both and it is mounted on the starter.
Am I correct that Ford in later designs replaced the Bendix with a solenoid mounted on the starter while keeping the relay mounted on the fenderwell?
Did Ford combine the relay /solenoid function like GM at some point? When?
These are questions/comments for the curios minded.. corrections and answers are encouraged!
I believe what you stated is all correct, but I'm with you in needing confirmation. It's my understanding Ford did use the firewall solenoid up into the 90's on some vehicles, so one would have to assume they went to the combined relay/solenoid like GM at some point on everything. For me, that brings up the question ....... does the starter mounted solenoid have suppression diodes, or has something else been done to alliviate the need for them in the newer solenoid wiring.
Rich, Been following your problem and am at a loss. My MK VIII wiring book went with the car when it was sold. I'm in the starter/ignition switch as the faulty party line of thinking.
One of the issues that causes starter engagement problems has been found to be too small a gauge wire for the solenoid. Some wire kits use 16 ga. when 14 ga. is what is required.
Also check your crimps on the connectors. The symptoms you related with respect to timing and development of the problem would lead one to suspect a failing connection. Loose crimp, corrosion, or loose connection.
I do not think the computer tells the starter to engage. I believe that is a straight switch to starter with a separate contact to tell the computer you are starting the engine. That is how the 2001 Explorer is wired.
Wish I could help more....good luck.
Thanks Bill. I've already installed a new ignition switch, and it didn't help any. I've got to chase down and verify the two smaller wires connected to the solenoid....one at the small terminal, and a heavier gage one at the Bat terminal on the solenoid. I believe that larger one is from the ignition switch terminal on the fuse panel, haven't located the smaller one yet in the instructions. Could be either in the express kit harness or the Televork harness. The wires themselves should be identified, I'll look after it warms up outside.
If I could just get that new solenoid installed, and the starter checked out, it would eliminate some of the guesswork. I need to get down there also with the meter and see what I've got while someone turns the key to start.
I finally figured out how to get the starter out, but it's gonna take 2 people and haven't found anyone to help yet. Nephews are never aroud when you need them, nor are my neighbors.. I did pull the Ford Motorcraft starter off my spare motor and brought it to the starter shop to have it rebuilt right. He's gonna have it for me in the morning. It's so much work getting at this thing, I don't want to put the parts store rebuilt starter back in.
My nephew came over and we fiddled with it for about an hour. Became obvious it was't going to work that way. Got back under it tonight and realized I could get to it right at the starter IF I had the right combination of sockets adapters and a short extension that would be the same length as the starter body..no more no less. Found what I needed at Lowes, and finally got the last bolt/starter out. Yeah.
I also picked up my starter being rebuilt at the starter shop. They did put on the solenoid I had previously bought from them. Now, if these high winds don't blow us away tonight or wild fires burn us down, I'll get it put back together tomorrow and check it out...with my fingers crossed. The remote solenoid with suppression diodes also came in. Hopefully I won't need it, but it's here in case I do.
It does have a stamping on the backside that says "diode suppressed"
I finally remembered to adjust my ebrake cable, and to put a "rub guard" on a body mount bracket where a braided fuel line was rubbing.
Fire in the hole! I got the starter mounted,well, 2 of the 3 bolts...still need to get that pesky third one. But I hooked everything up and she fired right up. After I get undo the power and get that 3rd bolt tightened, I'll take it for long drive and see if the hot start issue is gone.
I did also wrap the exhaust with Titanium Heat guard wrap.
sent pm
Got the PM and sent a reply.
Doug...I keep forgetting to ask you and others...have you run into any windy days on the open road. I'm wondering how your car handles in the wind. Mine gets to feeling like it's floating when the wind is blowing, which is frequently here in Texas. Gets kinda scary at times, but I felt that way with my Subaru for a month or so when I first got it. Could be a brand of tire issue also??
Well, it looks like what I thought was a hot start issue was just a bad solenoid. Took it for a 20 mile drive, got it home and it restarted right up. Posibly the heat wrap on the exhaust helped, but I'm more inclined to think it was just a weak/bad solenoid. Now I'll keep my fingers crossed it doesn't reoccur.
Rich, I still think the steering feel is caster related....
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2016-03-24 20:20
Rich, I still think the steering feel is caster related....
X2
These cars weren't designed in wind tunnels :003: I haven't had mine in a real windy condition yet but I assume it will be much better then my 60 Panel truck that I've been caught in 40-60 mph winds in the desert, now that was scary..
It must have been fun driving these cars at places like Daytona :burnout:
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-03-24 14:44
Got the PM and sent a reply.
Doug...I keep forgetting to ask you and others...have you run into any windy days on the open road. I'm wondering how your car handles in the wind. Mine gets to feeling like it's floating when the wind is blowing, which is frequently here in Texas. Gets kinda scary at times, but I felt that way with my Subaru for a month or so when I first got it. Could be a brand of tire issue also??
Well, it looks like what I thought was a hot start issue was just a bad solenoid. Took it for a 20 mile drive, got it home and it restarted right up. Posibly the heat wrap on the exhaust helped, but I'm more inclined to think it was just a weak/bad solenoid. Now I'll keep my fingers crossed it doesn't reoccur.
mine was almost impossible to keep in one lane until I got the castor up close to four degrees. handles pretty good now but if I was doing another, I would build in another 1 or 2 degrees
Rich I second the guys thoughts. I have a German Ford van from the 1960s and it is horrible to drive in side winds. it only has short to 2 degrees caster, now that is much too little. Like imposter said all the Hot Rod guys are running their frontends with 6-7degrees caster. I have had the best experience with even 8degrees in my Model A Hotrod (108" 32 WB). it was absolutely resistant against side winds.
Even if it might be a little hard to steer I would try putting caster to 4-6degrees in the 57 anytime. remember that your rake changes caster also. lifting the rear will decrease it and make it less stable. All of that is a huge science, but just try to change around a bit. I have also found that too much toe in can sometimes make a car rather float around than going straight.
These cars were basically center point steering with a stock spec Plus or minus 1 degree. that made them steerable with manual steering. Mine was only able to get 2 1/2 degrees. while that helped, a bunch, we had to build in another 2 degrees while doing the front suspension. After the change we were able to get 3 1/2 degrees which made another improvement. Thats why I said if I had it to do over, I would try and build another 2 degrees so I could n et out with four to four and a half degrees. I think it would handle like a new car.
All good info. Sometime down the road, I'll talk to my alignment guy about increasing the camber caster if he can. Thanks for the input...nice to see everyone in agreement.
While I'm waiting on the bodywork issues I now have, I talked to my alignment guy this morning. Thursday he's going to have a look see at the caster to see what he can get. I will get the 1" lowering blocks in it before then also.
I'm still working on my horn issue I thought I had resolved. The horn is actually working if the actual switch is depressed to make contact, but with the center section/trim/airbag thingie in the center attached, it won't push in far enough to make the switches close. The switches seem to need more travel than they should, posibly because I had pulled them out of an earlier Mustang. I just got back from the wrecking yard with another set that had a short throw before contact.
I made the dreaded call to Grundy this morning. She said I'd be contacted within 24 hours by an agent to get things set up.
I did finally get the horns straightened out, THIS time checked with the center piece mounted. I did find out that 90's and early 00's Mustangs used a similar looking switch, but some are different than most. Some, as the one I ended up with and needed, are insulated from grounding out to the steering wheel so that the loop for the ground completion is totally in the switches and wiring. Most of the switches I looked at today grounded directly to the steering wheel at the mounting bolts and had no secondary ground wires. Took me a while to figure out I was dealing with two different types of ground connections.
My alignment shop reset the camber caster to as much as he could get, which was 2* on both sides. The return to center is noticeably better, but the big difference is out on the highway at 60-70. There is a big improvement on the handling. It just doesn't seem to float like it did. It's still not completly gone, but the feel is comfortable now.
The adjuster was out from Grundy this morning as well. He seemed to be very thorough and has already talked with Mark at the body shop I'll be using. It'll be early-mid week before I get the copy of the estimate, but so far so good.
i am assuming you are talking about caster,camber you want close to 0*
yep, thanks. That's what he adjusted...the caster
That sounds good that so little adjustment can improve the handling. Have you already put the lowering blocks in ?
I actually did not, I like the existing stance so much I decided to see if the alignment alone would change anything. I know it will help as well if I did, both from a better weight transfer/distribution as well as increasing the caster.
Yes Rich, your lowering blocks would affect caster.
you might be surprised, but 2" lowering blocks, with our 116" WB will pretty much exactly add 1degree of caster. (inv tan(2/116)= 0.99degrees). 1 " lowering blocks will add approx. 1/2 degree.
The factory caster specs are set between 1/2 and 1-1/2 degrees.
One can easily calculate, that if you had your caster on the low side (1/2degree) AND concerning that you maybe have a rake of 2 ", that means it deducts 1degree of caster and you actually might get NEGATIVE caster of 1/2 degrees. which would explain your car's bad sidewinds reactions and unstable handling.
Generally speaking I think that 57 Fords look very good with a mild rake and it's exactly what I thought last time when I saw your car in the driveway ( the pic with the snow). It looks really nice as is. This is also true for all the SWB Custom models and wagons.
your tire choice is also very good. what sizes are you running ?
Thanks Guenter. I also like the rake as it is, it's what I had in mind from the beginning, just took a while to get it there.
Tires: 235/70-15 rear and 215/70-15 front. The 215's up front look proportionatly better than the 205's that were on it. That one size jump made a surprisingly big difference.
The car before realignment was at -.25* on the castor.
Your tires are a great choice, thx for the info. I am running 75 series, 225 and 195, which comes to pretty much the same diameters as yours. I too don't like when the front tires in a 57 are too small or low profile.
Got a new computer...this is the first day using it on the forumns...still trying to figure out where all the stuff now is on the windows 10. URGGHHH!!!
I've been chasing down tools,parts and supplies...finally got a start on it yesterday.Got the fender pulled out pretty close. In the 3rd pic you can see where I long blocked the clearcoat above the bare area indicating it's back pretty close to straight. The low spot indicated by the unsanded darker area is pretty close to where it should be. I pulled on it some more after that blocking, so it may be gone now, bu in any case close enough for a coat of high build primer to level it out.
The sharp creases in the lower fender and door have also been pretty much pulled out using a stud welder/slide hammer. The second pic shows the crease and low areas, the third pic shows the metal pulled back out pretty close.
The stud welder I got from Harbor Freight, and true to the many reviews, the welder works great, the slide hammer that comes with it is a major piece of crap. I was prepared for that, and after testing, ordered a new slide hammer from Eastwood...lol, costs almost as much as the welder, but it works great. Bottom line...so far the stud welder has been great, and if you pick up a different slide hammer the total cost will be about 220....about 1/2 what a pro level stud welder alone costs.
BTW, in case any of you are wondering...yes, I'm trying to save the old door, not sure if I can,. I did pick up another door in Kansas, so if I make the damaged door worse than it was, I have a backup. The Kansas door after sandblasting proved not to be as clean as it looked. I've already replaced some metal on it (before sandblastng) and after sandblasting some very unexpected rust-through on the lower door skin became evident. I've already picked up some sheetmetal to replace the lower 4" of outer door skin on the new door if I need it. the 4th pic is the Kansas door after replacing the bottom sheetmetal, and before media blasting.
Rich, your own work on the damaged panels is quite brave, considering how nice this car was just a month ago and what happened on that nasty day. using the puller was a good choice since you probably didn't want to remove all of the door interior and inner fenders or even the whole frontend to get access to the dents. Not a bad move, considering it will save you days or weeks of work and keeps your gaps where they are. risk of damaging your front fender/header panel bodywork will be minimized. not how I would have attacked it but a good way for sure ! Your 57 will be getting ready for paint in no time !
Rich you're getting pretty good with the sheet metal work! I think you can really get a bang up job done on your own. Remember....long boards rule...... :003:
Thanks guys. I'm trying to figure out how to get something inside the door to push the metal out...I think it's gonna be too strong for the studs and slide hammer...any suggestions appreciated.
One idea I'm kicking around is drilling some 1/4" holes so I can attach a length of unistrut channel inside the door with long 1/4" bolts protuding thru that I can attach a hook/eye to and pull it with a come-along. The holes can be welded up easy enough.
It would be nice to have the dent removal tools a body shop has!
So, Gunther...how would you have approached it?
Doing something like this repair is a reminder that there are no flat and straight panels/areas on these cars. Everything has a blending curve to it!!!
Rich, that is some pretty slick work on the front fender, since you kept your frontend alignment and without having to pull your inner fender. I most probably would have removed the fender and do it with hammer and dolly. with the door I wouldn't go further with too many puller studs welded on. each one of those weld spots shrinks your door skin and it will get a lot of small ripples. If you are willing to accept quite some filler this is ok.
please do not drill 1/4" holes in that flat crowned door skin. welding them up will give you lots of distortion problems.
if you pull the inner door panel, you will get good access and using wood blocks/ beams/boards to spread the force on larger areas will give you a good chance to pop out the major dents. what I do is cut my own bodyworking sticks from thick plywood (1" or more) and I round off/sand down the front edges/corners to my needs.like a spoon. that way I can put gentle force into dented areas and will not make a sharp crease, like with a metal tool or pry bar. the wooden sticks can also be used 'sliding' over the dented area, much like a flat iron. always spread your work on large areas. never try to hammer out a dent right from the middle.
Some large dents might even pop out by simply laying your palms on the dent from inside and applying some light pressure.
A very professional approach to your door skin would be cutting it at the lower glas posts and removing the entire outer skin, metal work it with an English wheel, dolly and shrinker and put it back on after it has it's og shape. Many hours are involved with that.
Again, your aproach with weld on studs and puller is probably a really good way to do it yourself at home. just make sure you treat the big dents in the door skin from inside. maybe you have to remove the sound deadening stuff inside the door.
Rich take a foot ball (deflated) stick it up in the door and blow it up....slowly. As the skin begins to "pop out" work the high edges around the depression with a slapper bar made out of a large course metal file. The teeth with shrink the high spots slowly. It is a slow process but persistence will yield a nice starting point for the finish work. A little luck and you may not need anything more then high build urethane!
Thanks for the tips. You are correct, the stud welds should only be used when you can't get to the back. I am kicking around the idea of instead of removing the outer skin, remove/cut the inner panel so I could fully get to the inside of the outer skin. The cuts would be made behind the door panel. When I was rebuilding the body the first time, I actually did that approach on the inside panels on the back quarters under the windows, but that was just a remove-the-spotwelds.
My replacement door I got as a backup was from a Ranchero,btw, so had the trim mounting holes I've already welded up. There doesn't seem to be any distortion from that. Also the fender I'm repairing now was from a 300 model donor car that had 26 holes I welded up, and that fender had zero distortion from the welding. I use a large copper backup plate to keep the welds at a minimum and it helps to absorb some of the heat as well.
I was typing when you posted that, Bill. Great idea on the football. I was actually thinking about inflatable something or others(inner tubes), but hadn't thought about the toughness of a football...GREAT IDEA!!! I know some of the body shop tools are of the inflatable variety, I had seen them in You Tube videos years back.
Bought a football....anxious to give it a go. Gotta work on the house this week though!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-05-01 14:42
Got a new computer...this is the first day using it on the forumns...still trying to figure out where all the stuff now is on the windows 10. URGGHHH!!!
I've been chasing down tools,parts and supplies...finally got a start on it yesterday.Got the fender pulled out pretty close. In the 3rd pic you can see where I long blocked the clearcoat above the bare area indicating it's back pretty close to straight. The low spot indicated by the unsanded darker area is pretty close to where it should be. I pulled on it some more after that blocking, so it may be gone now, bu in any case close enough for a coat of high build primer to level it out.
The sharp creases in the lower fender and door have also been pretty much pulled out using a stud welder/slide hammer. The second pic shows the crease and low areas, the third pic shows the metal pulled back out pretty close.
The stud welder I got from Harbor Freight, and true to the many reviews, the welder works great, the slide hammer that comes with it is a major piece of crap. I was prepared for that, and after testing, ordered a new slide hammer from Eastwood...lol, costs almost as much as the welder, but it works great. Bottom line...so far the stud welder has been great, and if you pick up a different slide hammer the total cost will be about 220....about 1/2 what a pro level stud welder alone costs.
BTW, in case any of you are wondering...yes, I'm trying to save the old door, not sure if I can,. I did pick up another door in Kansas, so if I make the damaged door worse than it was, I have a backup. The Kansas door after sandblasting proved not to be as clean as it looked. I've already replaced some metal on it (before sandblastng) and after sandblasting some very unexpected rust-through on the lower door skin became evident. I've already picked up some sheetmetal to replace the lower 4" of outer door skin on the new door if I need it. the 4th pic is the Kansas door after replacing the bottom sheetmetal, and before media blasting.
Rich.........did you get a complete door from Roger,....... complete with the vent window assembly or just the sheetmetal?
John
I got a complete door, he only pulled off the outside trim to keep his set complete. Need anything??...I've stripped it down and have all the parts I took off that were salveagable, including the wing window assembly. PM sent.
Hasn't gone out yet, John, but I haven't forgotten. Didn't think you were anywhere close to needing it yet, and I'm up to my eyeballs in getting my workspace emptied out for a makeshift floor and alsoinsulation.
Rich..........take your time sir.I might need it around December!
Thanks
John
John... Post office said Monday or Tuesday. The rain gutter that is on it's way is the last pic.
Been busy with my side project...determined to get my work area organized and straightened out before I get into the bodywork, but I'm almost done. My dirt floor now is covered with a layer of 2 x 6's and 3/4 osb. Very quick and dirty, not exactly level, but that would have slowed the project down big time and just wasn't worth it. But now I can roll things around...even bought a cart for my mig welder and a work stool on casters!, lol. Also getting insulation put up, and the best part...cleaning out 10 years of crap building up!!
Today I'm going to get the epoxy primer on the front fender's reworked areas.
Tommorrow the car is going to my friend's hot rod shop to figure out why my A/C stopped cooling. ...lol...another "just cause I built this thing doesn't mean I can fix it" thing. He's pretty good with A/C systems and has a set up to pressure check the system for leaks. Actually could be a leak, an electrical problem or a compressor problem. A leak would be the most likely culprit, but also the hardest to find/fix. I'm doing this now because if it is a leak it's posible the front right fender will have to be removed to get at the bulkhead on the cowl/side panel. If the fender has to come off, I want to get it done before repaint. When I had the system charged 4 or 5 months ago, it passed vacumn and pressure tests.
Yesterday I ordered a pro-grade spray gun from Eastwood. It's a Devibliss Finishline Plus gun with 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 tips. I've got a fairly good Sharpe gun, two Arwata Air Gunsa guns, and an old Craftsman made by Devibliss. This new Devibliss should be the cat's meow though. On sale for 300. + shipping., so it's not a top level Sata, but should be better than what I had, especially in the metallic basecoat spraying. Looking forward to using it, but for the next month or so It'll be sitting on my shelf while my hi build primer gun (air gunsa 1.8 ) is being used.
I was thinking about buying an air supply breathing system, but aside from the 5-800 cost, I was having a hard time getting around the thoughts of having two hoses to contend with while painting. My breathing is pretty bad, so I need to do something more than I have in the past when spraying this stuff. I had used the cheap 15. mask/filters. After reading about Isocyanides being absorbed thru the eyes as well as breathing into your lungs, I bought a 3M full facemask setup yesterday.Kinda pricey at 140. plus 40 for additional lens protectors, but we're talking health issues here. The fresh air system is definetly the better way to go if alot of painting is going to be done, but this full mask/filter setup should be ok...at least it's a big step up over what I was using.
I use a 3M full face for my eyes but also my glasses. The filters are not economically practical for a profession. For once or twice a year, an air supply system is not economically practical. Between daily uses, I store the mask in a zip lock bag. It helps keep the filters fresher.
Used it today...then promptly put it in a zip lock after I was done in the work area. I think it probably worked pretty well because I could not detect any odors at all when I had it on, and that stuff is pretty nasty smelling.
I was probably a little too hasty though in getting ME prepped for painting though. I need to get a body suit with hood and wear gloves...I did neither today.
Got the epoxy primer sprayed on the reworked area. Hard to tell in the photo because the primer is almost the same color as the sanded clearcoat, but the primer ends about 3" above the sharp crease line. Not perfect, but I learned a long time ago the easiest way to get it done much faster is to get it close enough for final finishing/blocking/shaping with the high build primer.
Got my A/C fixed yesterday...long term this time I hope. Turned out to be a leaky fiting on the interior side of the bulkhead. So, that also took care of what I thought was a leaky heater hose getting the carpet damp.
On another subject...installed one 4' shop light yesterday. I had got fed up with the cheapy 4' florescents not working more than a few months. I had bought a couple of expensive florescents years ago that have worked consistently, but at Lowe's I noticed they now have 4' LED shop lights. Perfect I thought..no ballasts, no cold temp. problems, brighter light, bulbs should last a lifetime. 50 bucks each, but come with the bulbs. Got one and put it up..significant improvement in the amount and color of the light.
KYBlueoval/John...you should have gotten a package a few days ago with the rain gutter??
update on that...got your thank you card today...so I assume you got it, otherwise you wouldn't have had my address. Thank you...appreciate the $ but unnecessary.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-05-19 08:21
Got my A/C fixed yesterday...long term this time I hope. Turned out to be a leaky fiting on the interior side of the bulkhead. So, that also took care of what I thought was a leaky heater hose getting the carpet damp.
On another subject...installed one 4' shop light yesterday. I had got fed up with the cheapy 4' florescents not working more than a few months. I had bought a couple of expensive florescents years ago that have worked consistently, but at Lowe's I noticed they now have 4' LED shop lights. Perfect I thought..no ballasts, no cold temp. problems, brighter light, bulbs should last a lifetime. 50 bucks each, but come with the bulbs. Got one and put it up..significant improvement in the amount and color of the light.
KYBlueoval/John...you should have gotten a package a few days ago with the rain gutter??
update on that...got your thank you card today...so I assume you got it, otherwise you wouldn't have had my address. Thank you...appreciate the $ but unnecessary.
Rich the "gutter" was perfect and just what I needed. As to the $$.......I would not have it any other way. Your time and trouble, postage and the part are worth something. Should have acknowledged sooner. Been very busy with "Life". Thank you very much sir.
John
No big progress on anything the past few weeks. Today I did fix several things I'd been putting off. I got a loose tailight taken care of, and while I was in the trunk I relocated the trunk latch catch. The solenoid wouldn't release with the new seal putting a bit too much presure on it, so I sloted the catch so I could move it up a bit. May have to fiddle with the solenoid a bit also and do some more adjusting on the catch. Might ultimately have to replace the solenoid with a stronger one.
Had a leaky lower radiator hose...got that fixed....I think.
I had mentioned previously my tachometer was acting sporatically. I think I found the cause of that issue...and it was the first thing I checked. The wiring gurus always tell you when something electric is acting weird, first thing to check is the grounds. I found the ground stud on the back of the tach was loose in the housing. Tommorrow I'll take it out for a spin and see if it reads good consistently. Speaking of taking it out for spins...I've had 4 or 5 in the past week or so..either really getting use to my handling or as my alignment guy suggested, the car may handle better as all the new stiff stuff loosens up a bit. Also, my A/C is still working great, so I guess Kip found the only problem when he checked/fixed/recharged the system.
I had some scratches developing in my drivers side door glass. Today I figured out what was causing it. It's the staples that I used to install the anti-rattler strip to the door. Tommorrow I'll check the strip to see if I can salvage it, and just figure another way of attaching it. Classic Auto Parts sells the kits for just the front doors, so at least I won't have to buy an entire front/back set. I've already got the replacement glass.
After thinking about it, I'm surprised there are staples there. I thought I remembered the door piece having the push in clips...some investigating to do there!
BTW, the reason I got into checking out the problem with the Tachometer was that I've been looking into a new set of gages. My speed shop friend told me about Speedhut Gage Co. that he's installed into 6 different cars so far. You can design them yourself.. bezel shape and finish, gage face color needle style and color, font selection, tick design, graphics,etc.etc. They have electronic or GPS speedo's available. All gages with or without warning lights built in, shift lights for the tach if wanted, etc etc. The fuel gage is calibrated by installer to match the sending unit. The tach does not require a sending unit. The set I was looking at would run 603....gps speedo, tach, oil, h20.fuel, volts. www.speedhut.com
Made in the USA, and lifetime warranty!
Rich you might try what I do. The "staples" are just about impossible to get in correctly. I use 1/8" pop rivets. Clamp the fuzzy in place, drill the hole, pop the rivet in and then dab a little flat black paint on them and they disappear. Have used this on every car I have built and have had no problems.
I used epoxy for mine, no problems.
Weatherstrip cement made by 3M.
Thanks for the suggestions..they all sound good. The anti-rattler won't go back on until after repaint, so I've got a while to decide.
My tachometer has been working so well, I decided to give my electronic programable(NOT) speedometer one more attempt. FAIL. I think I drove 1/2 way to New Mexico on the I 40 surface road...one mile at a time. Gave up...it ain't happening, so now I'm back to figuring out what I want to do with ordering the Speedhut gages. There are so many design options, I could actually design them to a close match to what I have, so I could order just a GPS speedometer and get away with blending it in with the "old" gages, BUT, there's always that but. I came up with a design I really like that's similar to what I already have (TPI gages..no longer in business), but enough different to make them much classier looking. I already have a color sample from speedhut on the tan/beige color I was looking at, and it's a perfect match for what I already have that works well with my interior colors. This link is to another customer's design that's identical to my design except my fonts are easier to read....
http://www.speedhut.com/gaugedesign/3870589323
Update...I emptied the driver's door out so I could get in there with the football as Bill suggested. I may try that later today. Anyway, got the glass and wing window/glass channel out that was in the way of repairs. I also removed the anti rattle strip I had mentioned earlier was scratching the window, and my second thoughts on it were correct....I had not stappled it on to the door. It was actually the strip's clip-ons where the clip's ears/tabs that penetrate thru the strip and folded over that was scratching the glass. Very frustrating to find that out as I can't remember how many times over the years I've recommended ClassicAutoParts for those...URGH!!!!! Anyway, I've got the pieces I need to redo them already. I had previously bought the anti-rattler kit to do the whole car, then decided to do the rear windows fixed ala Business coupe, so I have the strips for the rear I never used, but were keeping in case I elected to convert the car back to roll-up rear windows. The rear strips just need to be shortened to fit the front. I will use strips without the clip-ons and attach as you guys suggested when I replace it.
Can't remember if I posted this previously or not, but the rear quarter damage/washboarding is almost gone from the car on it's own. The waves in the rear quarter were my main concern after the incident occured, but I guess a few months of hot/cold cycles went a long way in the metal's memory coming into play...cool!!
Wow, lots of updating to do.....trying to find time between being out of town and nightly baseball games.
First, I mentioned I had ordered a DeVibliss spray gun. That got backordered and not due back in for a few months so I cancelled. After lots of looking, and not wanting to spend 700. for a new Sata, I went with the 3M Accuspray sytem. Long story on the reviews I was getting, but after I shoot the car with it for the metallic base and clearcoat, I'll do a review on it. It's a totally different concept in gun design. Here's a link to a querry I did on the main board of the Hamb if any one is interested...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/3m-accuspray-recent-experience.1021474/#post-11553125
The first pics are the door glass scratches caused by the bent over tabs on the anti-rattler clips.
I'm changing my approach on the primering of the car. Instead of epoxy primer only as I move to the next panel, then shooting the whole car with the high build where needed, I'm applying the epoxy, then the high build after an hour. Sanding that epoxy primer in a major pain, so doing it this way will save tons of time.
So...I got the door creases, dents and pancaking all pulled out pretty close. The door was stripped to bare metal on the outer skin from the bottom of the window down. I applied a thin coat of Rage Gold and got it all blocked out. I dug out some little pockets down to the metal in 3 areas where the filler was the thickest after shaping so I could actually check the thickness with a depth micrometer. Those three areas were .023, .024, and .028, so that's way less than the 1/16 max recommended. As far as getting the pancaked area popped out, I used the football trick Bill suggested. Worked great except those darn footballs won't hold 80 psi!!, lol. THANKS, Bill.
I did have to use the stud welder along the top of the pancaked area where the crease was hard. I ran a line of studs all the way across the door just under the crease. From there, the football, hammer, slide hammer, ect...got it all out in a few hours.
I sanded the epoxy primer on the front fender, and reworked a few areas I wasn't feel was ready for the high build. I then epoxy primered the door and touched up the fender, then shot a few coats of high build on all the worked areas.
Today I started working on the rear quarter panel. As I mentioned before, most of the washboarding had come out all on it's own. I blocked the clearcoat to hilite the damaged areas and took the area surrounding the wheelwell down to bare metal. I also took the areas that had been scrapped/paint damaged down to bare metal just to make sure there was no underlying filler/primer problems. The area around the wheelwell had been pushed in, so I dug out the stud welder again and got it pulled out pretty close. That was another area I couldn't get behind the panel to hammer and dolly, so the welder saved my butt again. I also used it to reshape the metal a little better than I had years ago where the two rear quarter panel replacements were welded together.
I actually had dents in a few areas I could get behind to hammer and dolly. When the building door jamb was forced into the side trim, the side trim was actually pushed into the sheetmetal. I never even saw that until I removed the trim and there was a sharp crease forced into the sheetmetal by the lower edge of the trim. I was able to hammer and dolly it almost entirely out
s'more...
I don't have a pic yet, but in blocking the back quarter, I discovered a crack where I no-seamed the tailight housing. It is a few inches above and below where the the sheetmetal was creased by the side trim ...pic 2
Rich, it seems that by now you are starting a second career as a bodywork man ! wow ! :icon_cyclops_ani: I bet that your work is better than 90% of the so called 'professional' companies. I am glad for you that you take your time and being able to repair that damage by yourself. Good work !
Rich you've got her coming along very nice! A little guild coat and the long board and that little neutral safety switch thing will be night mare from the past! Keep at it, you are doing good.
Thanks DJ, Bill. It's coming along pretty well.....just trying to get as much done and still leave it intact enough for a little cruising. I've got to post some pics, but I've got the back quarter in the first coat of 2k, the door in it's second. I think it's ready for final blocking on the left side....the quarter went real smooth.
I've moved around to the front right fender and got it pretty well worked out and ready for it's first 2K....so all the body damage is taken care of. I'm planning on shooting the complete car except for the roof, so it's everything from the drip rail down. Haven't decided whether or not to remove the hood, trunk lid, doors. The underside of the all those will not be repainted.
All the trim, grille, headlights, door and side glass, handles,etc will be removed.
Except for fixing little owwies the car got along the way, the rest of the car will just have the clearcoat blocked out with 320 and shot with a coat of primer mixed to just the surfacing build, then sit for a week prior to final blocking the entire car. That will give all the new paint a consistent color underneath it.
My paint supplier said according to the manufacturer, all curing, shrinking, etc will be completed in 7 days if sprayed at the high build formla, faster if sprayed at the surfacing or sealer formulas. Can't remember if I mentioned it previously, but the primer I'm using this time around is a DTM (direct to metal, although I'm not using it in that way), and can be mixed either as hi-build, sealer, or surfacing.
Last night I got the hood "old" clearcoat scuffed/blocked. I'm using a 5" DA with 320 to get it started, then doing a final block by hand with the soft sanders and durablock. At that stage it's mostly scuffing, the critical blockings will be on the final primer prior to shooting the basecoat, and the final clearcoat.
The first pic above shows the crease pressed into the rear quarter from the trim piece being forced into it. The picture also show a crack along the tailight bezel where I had no seamed it. That crack ran a few inches above and below the crease. I was able to get most of the crease hammerer and dollied out, and the crack was cleaned out 1/2 wide and refilled.
The wheelwell flange was hammered and dollied to get it back in place. As you can see in the pics, most of the rear quarter blocked out pretty well just blocking the clearcoat....can't believe how much the ripples and waves came out on their own waiting a few months.
In the above pic of the Soft Sanders...The orange and red ones I use a lot, and the yellow one shows how the self-stick sandpaper is laid face down on the surface you want to work, then then the sander shaped to fit it. The sandpaper, as shown, holds the sander in that shape. The set of 6 I got is the shortest...they have them in several longer sizes, and you cand buy them in individual shapes several feet long if wanted. I love these things!!
Rich you are doing some really nice work on the repairs.
If us "garage guys" had a good booth with the infarred lamps and heaters those little ripples and waves would never be a problem. I try to let mean ol mr sun do my drying and shrinking. Primer goes on a little at a time in panels so most of it is 3 - 4 months old before blocking. After it blocks out with 400 it gets a 4-3-1 coat of primer. Once the whole car is blocked and sealed it gets a final dry 600 prior to top coat.
Do you shoot base/clearcoat, or single stage? The way you do it is basically what I'm planning on this time around. When I painted the car the first time, I did the final blocking then sealed, followed by basecoat. The problem I ended up with is the sealer had some orangepeel, so even though the clearcoat got blocked smooth, the basecoat didn't flow as smooth as it could have. This time, if I do the sealer at all, it will be before the final surface primer, which will get the final block just prior to basecoat.
lol, I hope I live through all this blocksanding!
BTW, I was just planning on a 400 grit final block before basecoat. My supplier said if I wait a week before that final block, the 400 scratches won't open up further as it may if I blocked it too soon. That's what I did the first time I painted the car, and scratches from the 400 grit dry were non existant.
I shoot single stage for solid colors and base/clear when putting on pearls and metallic. My sealer coat is a very thinned urethane primer. Not high build or self etching. I shoot as wet as I can get away with on the sealer. The base coat goes down in three trips around. First two are to fill color, just a nice medium to wet on the second round and then the third round is put on while the second is still wet. I raise the gun pressure up about a third more and move back almost double the distance to almost kinda dust the last of three on. Doing this will eliminate any "zebra" striping and help the pearls and metallic to suspend evenly.
After plenty of dry time the clear goes down in three wet coats. I find a spot that will be covered and use it to test the dry time. Touch the clear and pull your finger away. If you have "spider webs" form as you pull away it is time for the next coat. If you leave a finger print you need to go to a slower hardener. You can mix fast and slow hardeners to "customize" the cure time some. I do use a very good clear, no thinning, more expensive, a little more gun pressure, (10 psi) but it flows super and resist running. The custom clears are pretty thin and the extra pressure make a lot of over spray but it does lay down nice.
Solid colors go one in three to four coats depending on cover. The last coat of solid is thinned 25% more then the base two - three coats. I tend to like shooting with 25% reducer, lets the paint lay down better. The "spider web" test applies here as well.
Sorry it got so long and I hope I didn't get too elementary....
Not at all...thanks. Lots of good info there.
I buy the high temp/slow dry reducer always anyhow, but I've never painted in the winter either. It's been in the 90-100's here the past few weeks, but my new insulation on the garage is working great. One day last week it was 104 when I went out to the garage mid afternoon. It was warm inside, but not hot. I turned the AC on to 70*, and within an hour I noticed it was cycling on and off.....cool!! (pun intended). My point was, I shouldn't have to worry as much this time around painting in July.
The issue I'm trying to figure out is whether or not to pull the doors, hood and trunk lid. I really don't want to do, or need to do, the door jambs, but I do not have room to paint everything at the same time if I remove them. Masking so I don't have paint lines is gonna be a bitch either way though. I did buy a box of the oval self adhesive door jamb masking stuff and used it when I primered the door. seemed to work well.....although very expensive at 55. for a 50 yard roll.
I have a rule...self imposed I guess....I never paint if the temperature is below 65. I also try to avoid early morning, too much humidity, the metal is cooler then the air temp and the pesky little black flying bugs are out in droves. I don't even try in the spring, way too much pollen in the air. So I'm a summer and fall paint guy. I do have both fast and slow reducers and hardeners and mix them to "customize" their sweet spot.
I love the jam foam! Have used it for years. I will have to get some more as I'm almost out....thanks for the reminder. Like you there is just not room to blow things apart and get it all done at once.
Last night I decided I NEEDED to take this thing out for it's initial long cruise before I take it apart for painting. Still haven't decided on door removal, but the side glass, door handles, trim, headlights, taillights, etc all coming off , so once I got to that point it was no driving until I got it all done...4 to 6 weeks in all likelyhood. So, last night I put the driver's door glass and door lock stuff back in, and this morning I'm having the A/C checked again for a pesky little under the dash leak, then I'm headed out...I think to Oklahoma for a day or two. Should be about 1K mile trip if all goes well.
Trip went great as I posted elsewhere....now back to getting it done. Tomorrow I'll start pulling out the glass, trim, etc etc....OR do some more blocking. Here's one more pic I forgot to post last week
...to beat an old subject again. September issue of STREET RODDER under the PROFESSOR HAMMER column, a question about joining pot metal to steel. The subject is joining '57 front fender extension to the fender. The short answer is to solder pot metal to steel.
I experimented with low heat brazing rod...didn't work at all. The pot metal melted before the rod. Now soldering could be done I guess, but I'm not sure that would be the answer. Solder has not much strength at all....epoxies would have much more strength. I didn't read/see the article, but I did think about solder when I was playing with the brazing idea...just didn't think about it for long.
Have you tried it?
After seeing the very minimal seperation/cracking both my tail light bezel and headlight eyebrow had after the abuse from the accident, I'm 98% confident the mechanical/epoxy/por-15 approach I did is not going to have any issues. Now, if I could just remember what epoxies I used, lol.
BTW, work on the repairs to my car have stopped for the time being. I'm just enjoying the heck out of driving it too much to tear it down right now. Took it to Santa Fe this past weekend....620 mile round trip... for a car show. I think gas mileage on this trip was about 23.5...down a few from last week's trip.
At some future date, I will try soldering pot metal to steel. I have repaired corroded pot metal by filling the pits with solder...block sand...send out for plating.
The guy that soldered the headlight bezel in that article had it copper plated so the solder would stick.
I guess I need to read the article to maybe get questions I have answered. The main thing though is silver solder is very soft...can't see how it would stop an eyebrow from moving when it expands/shrinks from heat. Also..to solder, you gotta flux...isn't that acidic?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-07-06 08:56
you gotta flux...isn't that acidic?
It is...I have used plain ol bondo to connect pot metal and steel with good success. I do sand blast both surfaces and lay it on heavy. After it kicks knock off the excess. Just have to make sure ALL the worked area is sealed up really good with primer and paint!
For me, I'll stick with the por-15, or more accuratly, Por-Patch...the thickened version of por-15 in a tube. Super strong, flexible to a point, and protects the metals. Added bonus of lots of time to work with. My memory is foggy, I may have also added some epoxy adhesive, but I'm thinking the por-15 items were the primary
Get all the surfaces roughened as possible, por-15 the sheetmetal, por-patch the backside of the eyebrow, attach the eyebrow with the threaded studs, adjust position, wait 4 hours for the stuff to dry. Clean off excess por-15 with laquer thinner before it dries.
This is a list of the codes the computer is throwing. They mostly are o2/egr valve issues apparently:
172 O2 sensor not switching. single, right or rear ho2s - fuel control
587 Vehicle control module (vcrm) not communicating with pcm.
335 evp/pfe voltt out of range signal
332 insufficient EGR flow detected. EGR did not respond during test
189 rich limit partial throttle* note...another source I was using said lean for same code #
176 o2 sensor not switching
181 fuel system lean at part throttle. single, right or rear ho2s fuel control
632 E40D transmision control switch should be cycled once between engine id and goose test
536 brake on/off malfunction/not activated during key on, engine running
326 EVP/PFE volt lower than expected. second source explanation: pressure feedback shows egr low pressure not seating or seating intermitantly
452 insufficient vehicle speed sensor input
gary/Canadian ranchero....On the above list....587 vcrm. I've got to go back and look at the install instructions to verify what I am remembering, but I do believe the Ron Francis kit no longer included the wiring for the vcrm because the connectors were no longer available, so those instructions that were previously included for it's install were ignored as per their instructions. I believe he told me it wasn't necessary anyways? Your thoughts on that? Would that also affect other things like the o2 sensors, egr?
Update on the VCRM....according to Ron Francis, it controls the fuel pump and electric cooling fans and not needed in an "aftermarket" engine swap. Both of those on mine are controled by relay harnesses or the Televork panel.
does your code reader tell you what codes are in the memory and what codes are hard faults.if not i would clear the codes go for a drive[get up to operating temp] and read the codes again.when you do a running test,the computer is looking for you to step on the brake,turn the o/d cancel switch on/off and to go to full thottle/idle.when the scaner/code reader asks you to.so far i would guess you have a egr,o2 and vss problems.check for vacuum/exhaust leak,that can cause o2 issues.check your wiring,bad o2 sensor? the computer may be looking for the VCRM even if you are not using it.hope this helps.i am sure you will have more question,just let me know and i will try to answer them
Yes, There are two seperate tests..one for memory and one "active". I'll need to look at my list to see which are which,and which test is which, but I did clear the sytem before I took it out to get it warmed up, so everything I gave you should be current. I do need to go thru the manual for the scanner. I was just following the prompts on the readout, but I suspect something may be explained in more detail in the manual that may make a difference in my steps.
One thing I'm not sure about...my engine light doesn't come on for 5 minutes or so, and the way the scanner reads it is pretty much done before the engine light comes on. Not sure if that makes a difference in what it's actually finding.
I think I'm going to finally start taking the car apart for repaint tommorrow. The timing is right...the next events I want to do are not until Sept 17, so that gives me 7 weeks to get it done. There is another show in Colorado on that date, and a 100 mile rod durability run in Oklahoma which is the one I'll probably choose.
that would help to know what codes are in the memory and what ones are hard/active codes
Gary...forgot about this....I'm going to have to set the code thing on the back burner again...started taking the car apart Thursday, I removed the headlights and grille/turn signal, so the car isn't streetable for a while.
I may put it back together for next weekend as we've got a big cruise here in Amarillo. It's our annual Polk Street cruise. It's a pretty big event. They close off a portion of the downtown, live music, food, thousands of people lining the streets, and hundreds of hot rodders cruising for 3 hours.
Aside from taking some stuff off, I did another blocking of the driver's side (took me 2 days, lol) and now have it up to snuff ready for the final sealer/primer. This last blocking was done with the guidecoat, and I only needed to tweek a couple small areas on the entire side.
I also tweeked the position of the nosepiece a little. It's still not where it should be, but alot closer than it was. Short of starting the front sheetmetal alignment all over again, I think it's as good as it's gonna get. I looked really close at the bottom of the headlight brow and found a small, 3/8 long, crack at the bottom. I had an identical one on the other side that I repaired. I think it is being caused from the bolting together of the fenders and nosepiece, putting some stress/movement on the fender's sheetmetal at the joining surface. That is why I needed to make sure the nosepiece was adjusted before I repair the area.
Before I spray more primer, I'm going to get my new gun and high flow lines set up so that hopefully I can lay down a smoother finish with the primer as I've been getting too much orangepeel, and therefore too much time blocksanding.
Edit...the Polk Street cruise I mentioned is actually in 2 weeks...Aug 6th
Thin the primer ever so slightly. Won't hurt a thing and it will lay down very nicely.
Actually the final primers will be thinned. The stuff I was blocking is the high build formula. As the high build, it is thinned 4:1, got to reread the can, but as the sealer I think it is 4:2, and as surfacing primer it is 4:1:1 (primer,activator,reducer).
I'm not sure at this time if the next coat will be the sealer, and I'm not sure if it really needs the sealer coat. Do you spray a sealer coat on your paint jobs, Bill? I am definetly going to do an overall surfacing primer coat to get the base all the same color, and the major places where body work was done is under a coat of epoxy primer.
Rich your numbers are good. I have this thing with the "high build" application. Even though it says to lay it one as you stated I still put in 25% more thinner. I do my initial first block with 150 in a cross hatch pattern, go back with the surface application and block with 400. It may take two or three paint - sand - paint - sand to get it right. Then depending on the color (solid/metallic/pearls/fine/course materials) go back with the 4:3:1 after a 600 blocking. I use the 4:3:1 as a sealer. Let it flash for about an hour or two then put on the top coats.
My working schedule allows for mean ol mister sun to do all the shrinking and gassing. That's to say the paint goes on and the car is pushed out to "rest" (me and the paint), the next day blocking, cleaning, spray and repeat. A friend uses infrared heat lamps to speed that process.
Thanks for the info...so you do use a sealer coat, and I assume that's what you recommend or you wouldn't be doing it. Because of past problems with an acrylic sealer coat and my inability to lay it down smooth enough before I started spraying the top coats, after color sanding and buffing the clear, I ended up with a smooth paint job that, at some angles, looked like it had orangepeel, if that makes sense.
With that in mind, I was thinking of laying down the sealer coat next, followed by the surface primer that could get the final smooth 400 blocking before topcoating. See any problems with that?
Need to reverse that....any orange peel you have will still be there. Adding more material will not solve what you explained. Needs to be smooth before more is added. The sealer is to close up any weak spots in the primer, any metal that may have come through in VERY small areas or spots. Your surface should be ready for top coat before the sealer goes on. Does that make sense?
Following your build is it safe to assume this is your first time around the block with painting. If it is you are doing a good job but I think working too hard to get the results you want though.
Play with gun pressure with the primer and top coats. Do this on an old part or a piece of sheet metal with a nice radius and a flat area to see the effects of the changes. Yes some material will be wasted but trying more/less with good notes on mixture will tell you a bunch. I do have a primer gun and a top coat gun. You can use the same gun for both but you should change out the tip and nozzle. 1.7 for the primer and 1.2 top coats, both single stage and base-clear. You will have to change the line pressure at the gun for primer, top coats, mixture ratios, and to some degree air temperature.
Quote: "Need to reverse that....any orange peel you have will still be there. Adding more material will not solve what you explained. Needs to be smooth before more is added. The sealer is to close up any weak spots in the primer, any metal that may have come through in VERY small areas or spots. Your surface should be ready for top coat before the sealer goes on. Does that make sense?"
Exactly.....but that was my problem in the past. I had the high build/surfacing primers all blocked out smooth ready for top coating and started with the acrylic sealer followed right away with the base coats. It was the sealer that I had trouble with the orangepeel, and of course I didn't sand it or would have lost the sealer properties. That's why I was thinking of sealing next, followed right away with a coat mixed to surfacing ratio. I figured I could then do the final blocking on that top/surfacing layer to get it smooth for the base/clear, and not break the sealing properties of the undelying sealer. hopefully improvements in my guns, and probably more importantly, larger 1/2" air hoses/hi-flo fittings will let me get the results I'm "shooting" for.
We're headed for Albuquerque in a short time, so I may not post until tommorrow evening.
Thanks again for the help and suggestions, Bill.
Rich, I'm going to guess you have tip/pressure problem with the sealer. It should lay down like water. Play with your mix, tips, and pressures before you "go for it" and see what happens.
I'll do that. Thanks.
update....looking at my car all disassembled and all the shiney stuff blocksanded to matte, makes me feel like I stepped back 3 years.
I have all the panels blocksanded now on their main surfaces, have to go back and get all the edges and underneath stuff, like the rockers. I'm not repainting the roof or splashpan or door jambs. I had pulled the door seal off the driver's door when I was doing the dent repairs and I am now spending hours with a soaking rag and adhesive remover getting the old weatherstrip adhesive off. I need to do that before I paint, and finish blocking that one door's window frame.
I still need to decide if I can paint with the doors, trunk and hood on, or if I would be better off fighting the space problem I'll have pulling them.
As close as it seems it is to spraying, I'm probably at the end of week at the earliest. I need to pull the car out of the garage, give it a good cleaning, straighten up and clean the garage, get my new hiflo air lines set up, practice with my new gun, find a new 5 gallon bucket to mix the basecoat paint all together in, pick up additional clearcoat in case I need it, hang plastic, scuff the entire car, clean, clean and clean again. mask the car, and hopefully be ready for the sealer coat.
I had been planning on a final sufacing primer coat, but my plans at this time, after talking with my paint supplier, are the sealer, then a really close inspection. If everything looks as good as expected, I'll go on to the basecoat/clearcoat. If I'm not 100 % happy with the way it looks with the sealer, I'll go to some surface primer coats then let it sit for a week before reblocking. Either way, I'll have all the needed components at hand.
update....today I will finally finish up the pre-paint blocking. It's been a ton of work, and some other issues along the way to slow it down (compressor, needed road trips, lol), etc., but I'm really happy with the way it's looking so far. Aside from the collision damage I've been able to eliminate alot of nicks, scratches, and minor stuff. Different materials and a different approach this time let me at least prep it for a potentially better paint than I did the first time. As previously discussed, the first time I painted the car 4 or 5 years ago, I applied a sealer immediately followed by the base/clear. This time I sprayed the sealer, then a few coats of surface primer, which is what I've been blocking the past week or so.
Trial and error stuff.............I had bought a new 3M accuspray gun, which is what I used to spray the last sealer/primers. It's really a nice system, can get a wide (14"!!) spray, super easy cleanup. nice spray pattern. It won't work for me though because my compressor won't keep up with it for a large full car spray out. The compressor is a 220v 60 gal. single stage rated at 14.5 @60psi. If I had a commercial compressor, or was doing panel repairs it would be great. The spray pattern started out great, then started dropping before I finished spraying the filled cup.
I had bought that gun after the DeVibliss on sale I tried to buy was out of stock. This time when I checked, it was in stock, so I picked one up last week. It's a DeVibliss Plus high efficiency (not hvlp) with 1.2,1.3, and 1.4 tips made specifically for base/clear. I still have reservations now about trying to spray my entire car at the same time because of my compressor , and could potentially end up with issues trying to blend wet on wet, so to be safe, I think I'll do it in sections as I had done the first time.
So, to sum up, hopefully using the new non-hvlp gun, some changes to the compressor switch/cycling psi's, and spraying the hood and trunk separately will help get me where I want to be.
Looks like Friday I'll be ready to put some color back on it.
Rich just put the gun on line and pull the trigger (no material in it) and see how your compressor handles it. Just sit there with the trigger pulled and see if you run out of air. Doing that will use more air then the actual spraying as you will pull the trigger back at the end of a run. The air in partial opening to keep the tip clear uses less air then when it is putting material down.
Don't be afraid, material does cost but the lessons you will learn while experimenting will solve all your application problems!
good tip...I'll do that tomorrow. Looking like Saturday for the spraying now. Where does the time go?!! Out of curiosity, how big is your compressor?
I now have a new six horse two stage 80 gallon tank. I trader cash and my old one for it last fall. My old one that was with me for close to 25 years was a five horse single stage 60 gallon tank. It was 9.5 CFM @ 90 PSI. Both wired up to 220.
My old one (sounds close to yours) stayed ahead of my gun, DA, and air file, not so much with the sand blaster. The 58 Edsel was the last car shot with the old compressor. Because it was a solid color it was shot in panels. The 65 Bird was shot all at once and had no problem running out of air. The gun is a DeBlivess gravity feed. Have only used the HF HVLP guns on small parts and under side until I get a good feel for them.
My new gun is a deviblis Plus, non hvlp. I just spent a few hours shooting the base...worked out really nice. Great spray pattern. There is a substantial amount of overspray though, something I haven't had to deal with with the hvlps I was using, but the compressor has an easier time keeping up. I never dropped out of the psi range while spraying. I think the overall paint is going to come out much better than the first time around, for sure the metalics are very consistent.....something I had a problem with ther first time I painted it. I was probably the only one that noticed except for my painter friend. I'm taking a 20 minute break, then on to the clear.
:003: :003: :003: :003:
Most excellent!
Yes plenty of over spray, but it sure lays down the paint nice. So happy you are on the right track.
So what about the clearcoat Rich ?:interesting:
pics please! :hiding:
OK.....got the clearcoat sprayed Saturday as well. Had some issues, but not too bad, just adding a bit more work to make it right. I was trying a new brand clearcoat (Advantage 625). The first time I painted the car 4 years (?) ago, I used the Matrix brand, their best (I always use a particular brand's best available). I love the Matrix brand. You almost had to try to get a run in it. Couldn't get it locally anymore, so went to English Color's best selling brand. It had been in the 90's and 100's here for months, so when I bought the clearcoat, I bought the slow/Hi-temp activator figuring I'd need it with the heat. As it turned out Saturday never got over 70ish. When I started spraying, it was laying down really nicely, but I got a few runs in the clearcoat (4 actually), I'm assuming because of the slow dry activator. I had to back off on the volume, so as a result,not being a pro painter, I was getting some orangepeel. Not horrible, but at least I was not getting any more runs, and I also was not getting any dry spots.
I had sprayed the metalic base with the 1.4 nozzle, and the clear with a 1.3...same new Devibliss Plus gun. The clearcoat told me what I had suspected on my basecoat...that I managed to get a nice even pattern on the metalics. I haven't had it out in the sun yet, but in the garage that looks really good to me.
So, Monday I started blocking out the clearcoat. I'm using some (made in Germany) 800 wet or dry adhesive backed sand paper on rolls that can be cut for the longboard. I can't block for too many hours in one day, so it took me 2 days to get the driver's side blocked out. Today I did some asking around and found most of the shops do their color sanding with a DA. I still want to do the first pass with the mentioned 800 on the long board, but I did buy a box of 6" 1500 grit wet or dry discs for my DA (expensive stuff at 69 bucks for 25 discs, but glad I did)... I also bought a foam backing disc so it's got some "cush" on the curved surfaces. It took me about 1/2 hour to da the front fender and 1/2 the door. Wasn't sure if I'd go to the 2000 or 3000 afterwards, but I hit it with the wool pad on the buffer and Maguire's Diamond Cut 2.0. I still may go over it with a foam pad and some final polish, but the Diamond cut compound took out all the 1500 marks on the first buff.
The first pic of the passenger side is the clear as sprayed.
One reason I did some buffing today was to get a better idea of how my bodywork came out, and I'm really pleased. I think the driver's side may be straighter than befor I wrinkled up the sheetmetal!
that looks terrific Rich, you should be in the car painting business !
I bet it's gonna be some hard work doing all the sanding and buffing, but then it's coming out great !
Rich.........looks great. I need a trip to North Texas to take lessons. Can you please tell me the color of your car and what year vehicle etc. that it was primarily used on? I've yet to decide on a color, but I lean towards Silver and Gray.........more gray than silver so the Stainless Steel side trim does not get "lost" against the silver color.
Thanks
John
The paint is a GM color. Chevy HHR, I think either 2003 or 2005. It is called dark tarnished silver. My paint supplier brought me out 6 or 8 paint chips of different versions of that color....mostly variations in the metallic content and size if I remember correctly. I seem to remember picking one in the middle. I do have the PPG Omni Plus paint code for the color if you decide on it. I think that paint code nails down which version I picked, but your preferences may differ.
The HHR's had about 3 silver grays available that were just a little different, so if you keep your eye out for an HHR on the road, it may or may not be that color. I think I saw one just yesterday, but to be honest the color does look a bit different on the HHR than it does my car.
I can't pick a color from a paint chip, I have to see it on a car. Then when I find one I think I like, I have to see it in different lights. Some silvers will turn different tones at sunset, cloudy days, etc. I wanted a silver gray that was very neutral...not with a tan or green or a purple tone to it. The color I picked is very neutral in all lights, so it has more options as far as blending with interior colors, pinstriping, two toning, etc. My 23 years in the art business really helps when I need to pick coordinating colors.
A note on base paint. My mentor/friend advised me years ago that a base paint doesn't do anything more than add a color, it is the primers and clearcoats that have the important functions, so place your money accordingly.
update....car finish is looking lots better today. I went to the paint supply shop and picked up a single 6" 3M 3000 grit wet finishing pad for the DA. I had blocked the rear quarter already with the 800 wet on the longboard, then went over it with the 1500 wet disc on the DA, then the 3000. It really made the finish look deeper and shinier. It also cut the buffing time down at least by 2/3. The 2 DA operations on the back quarter took less than 45 minutes, and the buffing about 30 minutes. I went ahead and redid the door with the new 3000 and started the fender, but the disc ran it's life before I got the fender done. Back to the paint shop tommorrow to pick up a few more. These 3000 discs cost 6.50 each, but less than 5 will get me thru the whole car, and save me tons of time. I'm still using the first 1500 disc, and it's not giving any signs of wearing out....probably just two will do the whole car. Those were the ones only sold in boxes of 25! Now I've got to figure out what to do with the 23 or so I'll have left over, lol. I was really surprised at how much the 3000 disc was removing....note first pic.
Very nice Rich! Don't worry too much about the couple of runs.....even the pros get a run from time to time! If you only had four on the whole car you're doing more things right then wrong!
Looking really sharp Rich. Your finish looks like glass.
Hey Rich, sell me 5 of those 1500 disc. I'd like to try them and I'll need them for the Ranchero if they make me happy!
Rich:
Very nice, I'm not sure what Santini uses. But when I went over there on Friday, the car has been color sanded and awaits only the buffing process. I hope it turns out as nice as what you have done in your garage.
Bob
57 AGIN
Bill..pm me your address again.
Bob...I'm 100% sure yours is going to be way nicer than mine. I have gotten very good at making things look good with my camera, lol.
Mighty fine job there!
Rich PM sent......
One heck of a shine for sure! I'm always nervous about using a DA for finishing, I'm so heavy handed I'm scared of suddenly seeing primer appear through the paint.
Yep...worries me too. I'm especially careful about staying off edges and peaks. One of the things that helped a bit was the fact that I only went thru the old clear (that I had originally applied) on one area when I was heavily blocking it with the 400 prepping for the sealer coat.....and I was not being particularly careful to avoid going thru.
The thing that made a huge difference using the DA was using a soft backing pad, about 3/8" thick, under the disc. That allows it to conform to our rounded surfaces without making flat spots.
looking great Rich !
color (clear) sanding is something nearly unheard of here in Europe. some professional paint shops will even ask if you are nuts to do so. it seems there is a lot of difference in the paint used even on water based or old style paint. It takes a brave man to take a DA to a fresh coat of paint for sure. loving the final look and shine though ! talking about it, even though I am not so fond of the modern engine and stuff, but your car just has the look. it'll look terrific again in the new shiny paint ! congratulations for your patience and keep going !
If I could lay this stuff on like a pro body shop, I may not be color sanding either, but I can't and the only way I can end up with something acceptable to me is the hard way. A little orangepeel helps make the body work look better as well.
Been raining everyday for it seems like a few weeks now. I did finish the colorsanding and buffing yesterday, but I need a few good days of clear weather so I can put the car outside and bring in the hood and trunk lid for paint. In the meantime, the huge cleanup job starts, as well as getting the stuff put back on so I can drive it if it ain't raining. If worse comes to worse, I can put the hood and trunk back on the car and paint them in place.
Update...took a few days off to go to a car show in Alamosa, Co. Good trip except on my way back I got a call from my very upset wife telling me my dog had died. Connie had been trying to get me for a few hours, but on my way back I decided to take what turned out to be a very slow mountain pass drive with no cell phone coverage. Shinka was my pal for the past 10 years, a great dog. I'm gonna miss her.
Getting the car back together where I can at this point. Spent days cleaning overspray and bodyworking dust from everywhere. I still haven't painted the hood and trunk....been raining daily. I'm going to go see if my friend at the speed shop a few blocks away has any space I can park the car in for a few days so I can get the final painting done in my garage. I have the headlights, grille with turn signals, and the tailights in, so I can drive it legally.
Except for the hood and trunk painting, my next project is getting all the side glass reinstalled. This includes cleaning off all the sealant from the fixed rear window seals and retrying another way of getting the glass installed so it fits better. Very time consuming trying to clean off the old sealant from the rubber.
I also need to remake some new anti rattler strips and replace the glass that got scratched by the old strips. The new strips will just be bonded on without the clips. Also, I'm going to recover the passenger door upholstered panel as the one on there got accidentally slit with a knife.
I did get the passenger side trim strip repolished and ready to go on. The driver's side trim strip will take quite a while to repair the damage from the accident on the rear section, and restore the front section that I purchased from Kansas.
I am so sorry for the loss of your dog. We had to put my wife's dog of 15 years down in January of this year. We will miss that one for a long time. Your car is looking fine!
Update...got the last of the painting done a few days ago and today I got the trunk lid cut and buffed and installed loosely. Tomorrow I'll see if the holes I drilled thru the hinge get it back where it was. I spent 3 or 4 hours cleaning the old sealant off one of the back window side glass rubber seals. My next idea for getting a good fit on that rubber seal didn't work either, so back to square one. I got to thinking maybe I'm overthinking this too much, so my next try will be to try and install the glass with only the seal. When I painted the hood and trunk, I also touched up areas around the window where I wasn't careful enough pulling the masking off. Tomorrow I'm going to get those touched up areas cut and buffed so I can proceed with the glass. One other new problem with the back sidewindow seal.....it seems to have stretched, probably from working it so long with wd40 as a solvent and a wooden scraper.
I had to order some side trim butterfly-type clips. I needed just a few long ones, and of course all I had was too short, and the local supply house no longer carries them.
I am going to miss my target date of the 17th for a rod run in Oklahoma...not sure if I'll make my next target date of the 30th for the Fort Worth Goodguys show.
Rich:
If you can't locate some of the proper sized long fender clips, I can probably get some through Hillco Fasteners here in Calif. When Rick and I were assembling the 57 following its initial painting at Santini's, I was able to find all the clips I needed. We used threaded stud type clips and Nyloc nuts to keep them fastened and it worked out very well (none of them came loose in the accident, lol) Just let me know.
Bob
57 AGIN
I've already ordered what I need....but thanks for the offer, Bob.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-09-09 21:00
Update...got the last of the painting done a few days ago and today I got the trunk lid cut and buffed and installed loosely. Tomorrow I'll see if the holes I drilled thru the hinge get it back where it was. I spent 3 or 4 hours cleaning the old sealant off one of the back window side glass rubber seals. My next idea for getting a good fit on that rubber seal didn't work either, so back to square one. I got to thinking maybe I'm overthinking this too much, so my next try will be to try and install the glass with only the seal. When I painted the hood and trunk, I also touched up areas around the window where I wasn't careful enough pulling the masking off. Tomorrow I'm going to get those touched up areas cut and buffed so I can proceed with the glass. One other new problem with the back sidewindow seal.....it seems to have stretched, probably from working it so long with wd40 as a solvent and a wooden scraper.
I had to order some side trim butterfly-type clips. I needed just a few long ones, and of course all I had was too short, and the local supply house no longer carries them.
I am going to miss my target date of the 17th for a rod run in Oklahoma...not sure if I'll make my next target date of the 30th for the Fort Worth Goodguys show.
Rich..........I hope you make it to Ft. Worth. I'll be in Ft Worth that weekend for a TCU . I'd really like to see your car.
John
I'll keep you posted...I'm really trying for it as it's one of the last of the season in this area. It would be good to see you again, and oddly enough at the same place, just a different venue.
The drilled holes in the trunk lid hinge worked perfectly to put it back in exactly the same spot.
I lucked out on the holes sizes, btw. I had drilled them 9/64 because I had a whole package of those, so I wouldn't have any problems finding 4 of them for lining up the the hood hinge. Well, I was looking for something had a tapered point to make it easier to get the holes lined up, and grabbed an automatic center punch. It turned out to have that 9/64 shank size, so gave me a nice tool with a handle to line up the holes.
update...getting some of this stuff put back on. I repolished and installed the passenger side trim, installed the mirrors and the driver's door lock and handle. I got the driver's vent window installed and the glass channel and anti-rattler strip is being bonded in place.
One of the non accident things I'm fixing is replacing the driver's door glass from being scratched by the anti-rattler strip's clips. That new glass is also waiting for the adhesive to set up in the lift channel, and is the reason I'm replacing the relatively new anti-rattler strips on the doors with strips that are glued on instead of the clips.
As I posted in a seperate thread, I also finally figured out how to get the fixed back side glass installed so the seal looked, and hopefully, functions better than I got t\it the first time around. I still need to clean off the sealant from the second side seal and glass and get that one redone.
Had another issue with starting yesterday...this time turned out to be the starter. Had the car towed to the local starter shop and they totally replaced all the innards...everything but the casing.
Got the passenger door glass in and the door lock installed, and I've been working on repairing the damaged driver's side trim. Should have that finished up tonight or tomorrow.
Everything is back together except the hood, which I'm working on. All the glass and upholstery is back on, as is the side trim and door handles, etc.
The passenger side back window is back in temporarily as I have to order a new seal. I apparently used a different sealer on that side when I was fiddling with how to get it done, and it has hardened and really bonded to the rubber seal, so there's no cleaning it off for a reinstall correctly.
Put 1k miles on it since my last post...took it to the Goodguys show in Fort Worth and this past Saturday I took it 105m to Canadian for a very small car show. LOL, I got up too late to leave in time to actually enter the car in the show, but went anyways. A fella I was talking to on the street where my car was parked told me it was too bad I didn't enter, I probably would have come home with 1/2 the trophies.
I apparently have a leak in my A/C system...it stopped working last week, and I finally got around to checking and recharging the system. It works great again. I used a refrigerant with a stop leak additive, so we'll see if it actually works.
When I went to Canadian Saturday, I once again had fuel spillage from the gas cap. What was really strange though, was when I loosened the cap, I got a big pressurized swoosh. So, how does it get pressurized when it has a vent tube? Sounds like I need to get to the start of the tube and see if I can blow out anything that might be blocking it. We do not have Mud dobbers here that I'm aware of, but may be something else that tried to nest in there. Also, I can't figure out how gas is leaking thru the cap, I'm pretty sure is the source, if it was sealing tight enough to build up pressure??
I keep rehashing the same vent tube/ gas cap issue, now I'm back to being pretty sure it's the vent tube. My latest hunch is what was happening is it was getting some fuel sloshing up into the line, and sat there in the low spot until the pressure got really high enough to blow the gas out. That would explain everything. I got under there this afternoon and rebent the tube so it went up instead of down as it was. Now there is no lower area in the tube than the top af the tank...at least for a few feet.
Rich. assuming your vent tube is a stock configuration.. mine was blocked on the 57 and I used a long piece of welding wire to unblock.... I disconnected it from the tank and then blew air..cleared up the line.
Morning Jeff! Sorry about the Blue Jays...I was rooting for them.
My vent tube is not stock configuration. When I added my in-tank fuel pump, I also opted for the roll-over vent valve on the fuel pump mounting flange, so the oem vent tube was going to be changed/altered anyways. I did use the oem exit location above the license plate, but made up a new (shorter) vent line to get there. Hopefully what I did rerouting/raising it up last week was a solution for gas getting into the tube.
Yes Rich.. there is no joy in Mudville this week.
Apologies.. i forgot entirely you are running a fuel injection set up.....
Rich, I know nothing about roll-over vents. A quick search online I found an article that says they must be mounted higher than the highest point in the tank, incuding the filler neck????
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/07/31/tech-101-the-hows-and-whys-of-installing-a-tanks-inc-rollover-vent-valve/
Really interesting article, Lynn. Thanks for finding and posting that. Mine is from tanks inc, as was the remote one in the article, but mine is not a remote. I'll have to do some more research and get back. Unless I misconstrued something somewhere, My fuel pump mounting plate had a tapped hole for the vent tip-over valve. So makes me wonder what's up with that and how that differs from a remote valve. I mean in how many applications are the fuel pump mounting plates going to be higher than the filler neck??? none I would think.
Don't agree with the mounting point for the device itself. OEM tanks in everything I've taken apart have the valve in the tank. The vent line is then routed to the highest point in the system and then to the front of the car for the carbon canister. The OEM systems on new cars have a sealed gas cap so gas in the filler is not an issue.
For us routing to the highest point and then down to the exterior should do it. My 36 is vented at the cap. There is no gas odor in the garage (2 car attached) except when there is a freshly filled tank.
They are correct in the "p trap" discussion, it will self clear with a burp or just plain ol driving and using gas from the tank.
Ok...saw your reply Bill, and remembered I was going to check out the Tank's inc info Lynn mentioned. Tanks Inc does have two vents. Mine as mentioned is mounted on the tank itself. The accompanying note says to exit the line at a higher point than even the filler neck, and to avoid low spots where the gas could build up.
Their remote valve is accompanied by a diagram which if I interpret correctly, is showing the remote vent as the termination of the vent tube. I agree with Bill that the location doesn't seem like it would be that critical..... UNLESS.....the valve cannot act as a passthru type where the valve could be located somewhere along the line. If it has to be at the end, then the location higher than the filler neck would then make sense.
I have not had any more splash out since I moved the vent tube to a higher location at the tank end...time will tell if it needs further modification.
While I'm working on a bathroom remodeling, I'm also prepping for some of the winter jobs I want to get done on the '57. I never was able to get my aftermarket TPI Gages, inc. speedometer working, and they are no longer. My friend at the speedshop around the corner has put Speedhut gages in 1/2 dozen cars and has had zero problems. The Speedhut gages are some that you design froma wide variety of choices in all the components. The dilema I was having was that I could have gone with just a speedometer designed to match pretty close to what I already have and not bother changing the other gages out, but I came up with a design I like better. I ordered the new design speedometer tonight, and will add the others down the road when I have the $. It's a GPS speedometer, so no screwing around with pulse generators, etc. Just wire in and go. Delivery is 10-20 days.
www.speedhut.com I'd post a pic of my design, but they are png files...pain to open.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I also picked up some copper tubing to rerun my gas tank vent tube.
I need to install an additional 12v outlet. With my GPS plugged in, I'm always running into a dead cell phone on my 2-3 day trips, or my electronic cigarettes need recharging, etc.
Speaking of electronic cigarettes, I've now been over a year since I've smoked a real cigarette. These fake ones help my breathing compared to the real thing, but one of these days I'll kick those too.
I need to order some new fixed window seals for the back side glass and get that finished up as well.
Those are my next 4 projects.
Forgot one...I'm going to be fiddling with the idle speed issue I'm having. I need to eliminate some of the potential causes as Canadian Ranchero and others brought up.
I picked up some cleaner for the throttle body and idle air valve and have found some You Tube videos that were helpful identifying and discussing the related components, like the throttle position sensor that also need to be looked at. One video I watched mentioned the fact that if the throttle position sensor is replaced, and I may do that since it's only a 30$ part, the computer needs to be cleared by unhooking the battery so the computer can relearn what the idle speed is suppose to be. After the ICU is cleared, they said to start and run the car in Park idle for two minutes, then in-gear idle for two more, and then in gear with A/C on for another two.
Rich if you want to clear all the old codes and don't have a reader short the negative battery cable (after removing from the battery) to the positive post for ten to fifteen minutes. This will ensure all is gone.
The computer will need many start and run (to heat soak) cycles to be really smart. My 98 LSC took about a week of running to and from work to get back to acting like it was supposed to and being good.
I agree with replacing the TPS and the IAC. Be careful with the cleaner as some MAS do not like having that stuff anywhere near them. Be sure to check the calibration of the IAC, couple of tenths will make a difference.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts on replacing some components. The engine now has about 60K miles on it...low, but it is 21 years old now. I wasn't going to clean the MAF since I put a new one on it when I installed the engine, and I'm aware that the throttle body cleaner cannot be used on the very delicate MAF.
I do have a reader, btw that will clear the codes. Just to confirm what you were telling me...disconnect both the ground and positive cables from the battery, then hook just the ground cable up to the positive battery post for 10-15 minutes, or after disconnect, hook the - and + cables together for 10-15 minutes while still attached at the + battery post??
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-12-02 09:18
hook the - and + cables together for 10-15 minutes while still attached at the + battery post??
Yes, the positive lead can stay connected if you like. Given you have a reader it will wipe out all when you clear it....no need to do the battery thing.
FYI...there is actually a specified cleaner for MAF sensors. I have had to use it. In fact...I now have 2 cans of it...since I had to buy one on the road last spring. And auto parts place should have it. But specify it is MAF sensor cleaner.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-12-02 09:18
Thanks for confirming my thoughts on replacing some components. The engine now has about 60K miles on it...low, but it is 21 years old now. I wasn't going to clean the MAF since I put a new one on it when I installed the engine, and I'm aware that the throttle body cleaner cannot be used on the very delicate MAF.
I do have a reader, btw that will clear the codes. Just to confirm what you were telling me...disconnect both the ground and positive cables from the battery, then hook just the ground cable up to the positive battery post for 10-15 minutes, or after disconnect, hook the - and + cables together for 10-15 minutes while still attached at the + battery post??
Yes, thank you. I hadn't bought it yet as I had installed a new maf sensor when I finished up the installation, so for sure less than 10K miles on it, but I was going to check it visually at least when I pulled thing apart to work on the throttle body stuff. I'm in Phoenix for 3 or 4 more days, and I've got to finish up a bathroom remodel project that got interrupted last week, so not sure when I'll be able to get back to the car.
My new Speedhut speedometer was delivered yesterday! Yay!, now if I were only home to look at it and compare it to my old one.
Phoenix eh? Have a buddy who is a Ford nut works as a cop there. If I knew you were down there, I'd have set you up with him and you two could have had some fun...he has Mustangs...3 of them at the moment.
I'd mail you one of these cans if it were sensible...not sure what I am going to do with two of them! LOL!!!
When I get the body down off the tire stacks and back on the frame, and of course running...I'll have to take a trip to Amarillo...and have some BB-Q...on my way to my home town of San Antonio!
I've never been to San Antonio, or anywhere further south than D/FW in Texas....maybe next year. If you're ever going thru Amarillo on your way home, let me know.
We have been coming to Phoenix twice a year for the past 5 years, but my wife's Uncle Jack died almost 2 years ago, and this past week it was Aunt Bobbie. Fortunatly we left Amarillo for Phoenix at 10pm last Saturday, and made it in time for my wife to spend a few days with her before passing. We're just helping my wife's cousin get thru this and get the normal stuff straightened out before we leave for home. Connie's cousin no longer has any ties to Phoenix, so after she sells 2 houses, she'll be moving to either Albuquerque or Amarillo. I'll probably spend some time here later helping to get the house ready to sell, then it'll probably be good-bye to Phoenix.
There is a forum member from Phoenix I've been able to meet up with in the past. I'll be giving Jerry/RavenRider a call later today to see if we can get together again before we leave.
Sorry to hear about the loss of family...especially hard at this time of year.
I go through Amarillo often when making the run down or back, especially if there is a stop in OKC included, which there often is, as my wife's sister & her husband live there, as well as their aunt and uncle. So...we will be seeing one another at some point...and since my wife is enamored with the Courier...it will be in that ride!
Cool. We're heading back to Amarillo in the A.M. I was able to meet up with Jerry/Raven Rider today. We were staying in SW Phoenix, Jerry lives 58 miles away in Mesa, so took a little better than an hour to get there and 1 1/2 to get back thru the Phoenix traffic. Jerry's Ranchwagon is down for modifications, but that is one solid car! He's getting anxious to get it back on the road.
I found out Jerry also goes thru Amarillo several times a year to visit folks in Oklahoma, so we may meet up again even though I likely am on my last trip to Phoenix. Anyway, we spent a few enjoyable hours just talking cars and he brought me to a neat 50's style diner for lunch.
My Speedhut speedometer was delivered while we were here.
Speedhut speedometer? Never heard of them. (but then..as stated elsewhere on another day in another thread...I've been out of the car racket for a few years...9decades). Is it a different option that the stock one? Or does it work like the original...only better and in the same bezel?
And I know what you mean about Phoenix traffic. My buddy was stuck in it in his patrol vehicle once...and he said cars all around him were dying off because of the heat and their air conditioners. Worse...he said having his "Kojak" light was of no use...because no one could move to get out of his way so that HE could move! LOL!!! I think he is ready for retirement...as that will mean moving to a much less populated part of the world!
Speedhut is an American made source for design-them-yourself gauges. Just the traditional round style similar to Classic, Dolphin, etc. www.speedhut.com
The only one that I'm aware of that makes a new gauge to fit our '57 oem cluster is Dakota Digital.
I saw an ad for them last night in my Street Rodder magazine. Looks interesting. Think I'll check them out...since they appear to have ALL the gauges...and I wanted to do a custom dash. Not real crazy about the digital stuff...I'm old school in the aspect that I want needles moving around/. LOL!!!
edit: Looks like a nice set of gauges and prices aren't bad either. I'll have to tuck that away for future reference. Thanks!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-12-23 21:00
Speedhut is an American made source for design-them-yourself gauges. Just the traditional round style similar to Classic, Dolphin, etc. www.speedhut.com
The only one that I'm aware of that makes a new gauge to fit our '57 oem cluster is Dakota Digital.
I finally have a speedometer...YAHOO! I now know the elevation at my house is 3636 ft! It took me longer to undo the wiring to the one I never could get working than to wire up the new one. Took it out for a test drive and I'm really happy with it. I haven't totally finished up the wiring, still need to hook up an always hot wire so the GPS doesn't need to reacquire when the car is shut down briefly, like at a gas station. They say no affect on the battery when it's hot full time...something like 25 micro amp draw. I also need to squeeze under there and remove the wires I'm no longer using.
Yesterday was a good tech day for me, I also finally (after 10 attempts) got my cell phone to pair with the '57's bluetooth radio!! When your deaf as I am, and hearing on a cell phone is hard, those bluetooth radios are wonderful. Also like the hands-free of it.
I also ordered a low intensity hi beam dash indicator to replace the high intensity one I mistakenly installed. Man those things will burn a hole in your forehead at night! Ron Francis.....16. for the light, 11 shipping = 27. URGGGG!
BTW, the new speedo blends in well with the old, so my plans now are just to replace the tachometer, and leave the old smaller gauges as is. I'll post pics later.
Congrats Rich! Sounds like an extension of Christmas! Enjoy!
OK...more on the Speedhut GPS speedometer. I love this thing....almost! Here is a pic of it in the daytime with my "old" TPI gauges.
However I have a problem with it at night. This is totally my fault as I did not pay enough attention to their website when looking at the day/night views...which were very accurate, btw.
It was tough getting an accurate pic of this....it is not as bright as it looks in the 1st pic. The second pic I'm posting is not accurate either, it's with a flash, so the gauges are actually brighter than it looks in the pic...so, somewhere in between.
So, at first my idea of just ordering a new tach to match the new design speedometer and keeping the old smaller gauges seemed to be out the window and I'd have to order them as well. I was very disappointed, not only because of the cost, and the labor as well, but mainly I liked the nighttime look of my old gauges much much better than the greenish white. I browsed the Speedhut FAQ on there website, and a question was asked if they could match the design of other gages, and their response was: in most cases, yes! So I called and described the problem....wanted to keep the daytime appearance but change the nighttime to match my orangy light of my old gauges.
THEY CAN DO IT!!
He said they would have to basically rebuild the gauge because it used a different technology for the lighting and a different type of gauge dial face. I mentioned this sounds like it's going to be expensive, but he replied I'd have to pay shipping and their charge of 20. I could have kissed him!
Customer service? Without charging an arm and a leg? WOW! Old school attitude!
Yes, very happy with their service...they aim to please. Besides they get the arm and leg up front, lol. I paid about the same for this speedometer as the entire 6 gauge TPI set, but I guess the key there is this one works! Made in Utah.
When I first road tested it, I had the regular map/gps on so that I could compare, and the two were exactly the same mph except the speedo was much much quicker response time. This was verified when I had the speedo in altitude mode. at 45 mph, when I crested a small abrupt hill, the reading peaked then started declining before the back end of the car got off the high point!
The speedo has a wired gps receiver unit that has to be exposed to the sky. If you look at the first pic I posted, you can see a bit of it below the gauge panel and behind the hazard switch. It is magnetic mount for most dash top applications, I just laid mine on top of the steering column for testing. It works well there, so I'll just leave it as it is out of site.
Excellent! You're right...barely visible in that pic.
Got the speedometer pulled, and sent off to speedhut for the nightime lighting change.
Lynn...I ordered my new rear quarter fixed glass seals yesterday, so hopefully in a few weeks I can answer your question about the glass size for cutting.
Ah...moving forward...always a good sign. You should be cruising in that bad puppy this summer!
I've been getting some small odds n ends taken care of. I finally got my cell phone to pair with the bluetooth radio. It sure helps when you're half deaf to be able to listen thru the radio speakers, and crank the volume up.
I added a second 12 v outlet, this one wired to an always hot terminal.
I finally got the new gas tank vent line run. The only way I could run the new line without it taking an almost immediate downward slope was to go up into the trunk, so that's what I did.It's got about 6" of rise over a few feet before it drops, so this should take care of the gas spewing problem. The issue here is because of my vent line coming off the in-tank electric fuel pump at the top of the tank. Unlike oem.
While I was in the trunk, I added a spring loaded trunk popper, and a coating of silicon lubricant on the trunk seal. I was having a problem with the seal sticking to the trunk edging so the electric solenoid wasn't working. Even when I used the backup pull cable, I'd still have to give the lid a good tug to break it loose. The silicon did the trick. Now it pops open first time every time......even after sitting for a few days. Hopefully when the summer heat comes back, it'll still work well.
I did get the high beam indicator replaced with a lower intensity one.
I'm giving up on my under dash electronic radio antennae. I ordered a power auto retracting one last night. I've got too much stuff under the passenger front fender (hoses, wiring), so I'll mount it on the back.
I'm avoiding some of the longer projects until I get my bathroom remodel project done.
You have been sailing along! The little things are the ones that seem to be the most annoying to get done at times.
I have always liked the idea of the hidden radio antennas...but have never found one that really works well. I'm afraid that technology just has not progressed enough to be of use.
I feel your pain about the bathroom remodel...another never-ending task...remodels.
Just got off the phone with Speedhut. According to the usps tracking number, the package was delivered to them last Thursday. They can't find it, don't show any record of it being received.....he's going to see what he can find on his end. URGGGGHH!
I did insure it, but dealing with PO, who knows how long that'll take.
And some wonder why the P.O. is always on the verge of being broke! Good luck!
Not found yet. Today the post office here made a printout of the gps coordinates of the final delivery scan. That scan was done about 60 feet from Speedhut's location. They are within a large commercial complex. At least the scan confirmed I probably had the correct address on the package, and my guess is it just got delivered to a wrong suite.
I filed a formal search request tonight, will have to wait another week before I can file an insurance claim.
Took the '57 out for a ride today. Filled it up first, and drove about 40 miles. No gas leaking out the vent tube, YAHOO!
They should be able to find it...the carrier should be able to remember where he/she left it and retrieve it...I would think.
You are out driving it? I am JEALOUS! LOL!!! I spent the afternoon scraping 59+ years of crud off the firewall, and still have a little to go. Then finish it off with a wire wheel on my grinder. After that...under the car to begin scraping off the bottom of the same gunk. I was hoping to have a rotisserie by now, but my flip house in AZ still hasn't sold...and I need to move forward here...so under I go.
Post a pic of you ride somewhere out on the road...I wanna see it! :ttiwwp: hehehehehehe!
I thought from some of your previous comments you had assumed I was in the build stage. I got it driveable Nov '15 after 11 years. I'm in the fine-tuning/tweeking stages now. It probably will never be totally finished. I may have a pic or two in the archives.
#1......my first "cruise" 50 miles @ "Tex" on rt 60 in Canon, Tx (this was HUGE STEP for me)
#2......not far...downtown Amarillo
#3......My first long cruise, 800 miles, this was in Elk City, Oklahoma
#4......Went up to Colorado for the Thin Air Nationals in Green Mtn. Falls. This was taken overlooking Cripple Creek, my home away from home when I lived in Colorado
Next was a show in Santa Fe, New Mexico 600 mile round trip
Goodguys show in Fort Worth at Texas Motor Speedway 800 mile round trip
on a Rod run to Childress on Saturday, 230 mile rt, one of a dozen going to a show
then a rod run to the Canyon on Sunday 210 mile rt, about 60 or 80 cars
I then did another trip up to Colorado. Wanted another mountain cruise before snow started flying.This is a Motel in Manitou Springs I've been staying at since 2003 on my Colo. trips
Last one is my favorite photo. Lake Texoma in Oklahoma.
Best part of a build thread is when you can do post like these!!
WOW! That is one beautiful ride! I really like the grey color. Nice stance too. Sounds like you have really been driving the daylights out of it too!
Did you alter the stance or did it have that rake to it on it's own after you put the motor in? Mine had a little nose down on it automatically...I always figured it was because of the 352 it was running. I do like that stance!
Thanks for the pics. Beautiful ride...you should be damned proud of it.
Thanks.
Haha....The old long-time members who have been following my build frustrations are probably grinning at your ride height question because they may remember what I went thru to get it there. I have 2 1/2 dropped spindles along with (originally) new 6 cyl coil springs from eatons. My 4.6dohc/4r70w drivetrain was so much lighter than the oem 6 cyl., my car looked like a gasser.
Even with the dropped spindles, it rode about 2" higher than oem in the front. (1st pic)
I had seen so many times where the combination of dropped spindles and Aerostar springs made the drop too low, but since my drivetrain was so much lighter than normal, I tried it anyways. Way too low. was bottoming out on everything,(pic 2), Next was cutting the Eaton 6 cyl springs to get it where it is now. Lynn here on the forum did the calculations for how much to cut off and it was right on the money. (pic3) All that fiddling took a few months.
The back right now is 1" higher than oem because I'm using new 6 leaf Ranchero/SW springs in the back. I bought some 1" lowering blocks to get it down, hopefully improving some handling issues I have. That's a project coming up real quick on my to-do list.
Keesha and I went out for a ride this afternoon in the '57...storm coming in tonight. Keesha was sitting in the front seat looking around. At a light, the guy on my right rolled his window down and said.."Man, that's what life's all about", and did a hand motion towards us. "A man and his Dog. That's a beautiful dog you got. Then added: "I like your car" as an afterthought.
Kinda put things back in perspective for me.
always great seeing you out in all those places Rich. A good dog need's a walk and so does a good car! :002: both are important things in life.
I see what you mean in each pic. Not sure what was the original motor for mine...I should check. I do know that I sure liked the stance it had before. I put a new suspension in it back in '76...and then shelved it for 40 years. so the springs have NEVER had an engine on them. I am hoping everything will come out correct...if not...there may well be some cutting of springs in my future as well.
Think I will go with the Granada set-up for front discs...and my rear leafs are good I believe...although they do need to be cleaned up and painted.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-01-12 13:38
Thanks.
Haha....The old long-time members who have been following my build frustrations are probably grinning at your ride height question because they may remember what I went thru to get it there. I have 2 1/2 dropped spindles along with (originally) new 6 cyl coil springs from eatons. My 4.6dohc/4r70w drivetrain was so much lighter than the oem 6 cyl., my car looked like a gasser.
Even with the dropped spindles, it rode about 2" higher than oem in the front. (1st pic)
I had seen so many times where the combination of dropped spindles and Aerostar springs made the drop too low, but since my drivetrain was so much lighter than normal, I tried it anyways. Way too low. was bottoming out on everything,(pic 2), Next was cutting the Eaton 6 cyl springs to get it where it is now. Lynn here on the forum did the calculations for how much to cut off and it was right on the money. (pic3) All that fiddling took a few months.
The back right now is 1" higher than oem because I'm using new 6 leaf Ranchero/SW springs in the back. I bought some 1" lowering blocks to get it down, hopefully improving some handling issues I have. That's a project coming up real quick on my to-do list.
Update on my lost speedometer fiasco. The USPS has denied the claim saying the package was delivered. I guess they consider 60 feet away at another business as "delivered".
I'm angry. Need to stay away from the PO today.
Typical government attitude..."we made a mistake...since it wasn't on purpose...not our problem."
Oh and my Courier...originally a 6 with a 3-speed. Looked it up last night.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-01-23 10:20
Update on my lost speedometer fiasco. The USPS has denied the claim saying the package was delivered. I guess they consider 60 feet away at another business as "delivered".
I'm angry. Need to stay away from the PO today.
I ordered a replacement speedometer last night. With my luck now they'll find the old one. 10 days or so I should be back in business.
I also started installation of an electric antenae. No room on the front fenders with all the wiring, etc, so it's on the back driver's side. I put it on that side because I already have a small wire bundle going to the front there, and it's richt above my auxillary power distribution box and grounding terminal. It needs 11 1/2" clearance underneath, so it had to go back a little further than I would have prefered to clear the wheel well. I did some temporary wiring to check the function, but also need to extend the mast so I can brace the unit at the bottom in the correct/verticle position.
The antenae I'm using is one I found on ebay amist all the made in China stuff. It's an new old stock Belknapp(?), with a 37" mast. It seems to be made quite well, heavyish, good wiring, etc. Did I mention cheap? 45 ish incl. shipping. Now hopefully I'll be getting some AM radio stations so I can listen to baseball games on road trips and get the weather channel my marine radio has.
installed antennas in the dealerships...always hated punching a new hole in the fender. I have GPS, navigation, and traffic info antennas on the inside of the Custom. So I installed an inside AM-FM antenna. It seems to work better than the GPS antenna.
I finally got the antenae finished up. Really cool....last night I was sitting in my metal roofed garage listening to 850 KOA in Denver.
Ran the cable and switch wire to the radio only to find out my model radio (marine) does not output any voltage on the 4 unused wires on their harness. That would be were it's normally hooked up to put the antennae up or down when the radio is on/off. Instead I ran the wire thru a switch I mounted on the console fed by an ignition powered source. When the switch is on, the antennae goes up/down when the car is on/off, instead of up/down with the radio. The switch allows me to put it down when I need to.
I installed 1" lowering blocks in the back to see if that small amount would make a difference in handling. Boy did it!!! I now have none of that wanting-to-come-around feeling on a downward curve. Awesome. I was hopping for a little improvement and got a lot. I still have a pretty decent rake to the car. The back end was 1" higher then oem due to the 6 leaf springs, it is now pretty close to stock I believe....maybe a bit higher due to tire size.
Sounds like that 1" was worth a lot! I am inserting a frame mod to my car to alleviate that problem...I'll post a pic of the final design on my build thread when I get ready to insert it.
We are hoping to get this beast done in time to do the Woodard Dream Cruise this August. I am thinking perhaps YOU need to join us up there! We could get some others and just make a '57 cruise down the Ave! :003:
Rich, I have considered doing that also, where did you get the blocks and did it include U bolts? I wonder how much more positive caster happens with a 1" drop in the rear, we need Lynn to do the math..
It is not that complicated but the results will be negliable. As an exercise I will try a little later.... :003:
Lynn, I thought it would be negligible. It may not be complicated for you but way over my head..
Jim.....on EBAY somewhere. Yes, it came with u-bolts, which I didn't need. The u-bolts that came from McVeighs with the new springs were just long enough to accept the 1" block.
The 1" as I remember were hard to find..... everyone carries 2" or up.
If I lived in an area that had an aluminum supply house, I'd make my own from solid stock. I didn't really care for the hollow extrusion, but that's all I could find. I gave the u-bolts to my friend at the speed shop (he's the one that installed the blocks...took 15 minutes, lift, axle jacks, etc). Anyway, tommorrow I'll check the box I gave him to see if there was an address on it.
Not to horn in on your chat with Rich...but since as he said the 1" are hard to find...if you have a machine shop (other than automotive) around your area, you can have them make you a set. If you DON'T have one...let me know...I have one near my wife's office. I bet they could make up a pair easily enough. Not sure about cost...but hey...whats' money..right? LOL!!!
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-01-30 17:14
Rich, I have considered doing that also, where did you get the blocks and did it include U bolts? I wonder how much more positive caster happens with a 1" drop in the rear, we need Lynn to do the math..
Thanks Rich, I know the 1" are hard to find and I really don't want to go more then that.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-01-30 21:22
Thanks Rich, I know the 1" are hard to find and I really don't want to go more then that.
Thank you for the offer. I have access to a mill so I suppose I could make one, I'm just getting lazy in my old age.
Jim.searched my ebay purchase history...copied this:
1 item sold by performanceonline-pol
Lowering Block Kit for 2" Wide Leaf Springs and 3" Diameter Axle 1" Drop
Lowering Block Kit for 2" Wide Leaf Springs and 3" Diameter Axle 1" Drop
( 161388952509 )
Add note
ITEM PRICE:
US $40.00
their ebay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/PERFORMANCE-ONLINE-PARTS?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
pics of trunk popper, antennae, and new vent tube. None of it real pretty, but hey, it's in the trunk.
BTW, I was talking to a friend today about vasolene'ing the trunk seal to keep it from sticking, and
he said what they use on rubber parts so the petroleum based stuff (vasolene) doesn't soften the rubber is Dielectric grease....aparently it is not petroleum based and wont affect rubber parts. Good to know!
I fully understand! No problem. If you get a bad case of REALLY lazy...let me know...I go by this place almost everyday on the way to my shop...depends on whether I stop at the post office first or not.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-01-30 21:24
Thank you for the offer. I have access to a mill so I suppose I could make one, I'm just getting lazy in my old age.
Looks pretty nice to me! Well laid out! I especially like the copper line...makes it pop a bit. And the bends are really good. You nailed it!
Your friend is quite correct. My Saleen is a convertible...and it does have a bit of a leak tendency around the ends of the windshield where the lid mates. A line of dielectric keeps the water at bay...although I have also used the Vaseline when in a pinch. Either one works pretty well. I have never had a problem with Vaseline on the rubber parts of cars. But dielectric is cheaper. And I...am kinda cheap myself at times! LOL!!!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-01-30 22:27
pics of trunk popper, antennae, and new vent tube. None of it real pretty, but hey, it's in the trunk.
BTW, I was talking to a friend today about vasolene'ing the trunk seal to keep it from sticking, and
he said what they use on rubber parts so the petroleum based stuff (vasolene) doesn't soften the rubber is Dielectric grease....aparently it is not petroleum based and wont affect rubber parts. Good to know!
Thanks Rich, thats helpful. I remember looking on Ebay in the past and most of the kits were either listed for Chevy trucks or they didn't list the dimensions.
The trunk looks good, is that a zolatone type paint you used?
Well I calculated the change in caster, lowering the car changes the caster more than I thought. Basically the change in angle of the chassis adds to positive caster by the same amount. A 2" drop amounts to a 1 degree change in rake and a 1 degree increase in positive camber.
quote: "The trunk looks good, is that a zolatone type paint you used?"
not sure what Zolatone is. This is the spray can splatter stuff. Black with aqua followed by lots of satin clear. I really need to get my whole car detailed out. The trunk I had always figured on carpet and side panels, trunk lid cover, etc. May not get done, but the splatter stuff looks great when it hasn't been abused.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2017-01-31 07:25
Well I calculated the change in caster, lowering the car changes the caster more than I thought. Basically the change in angle of the chassis adds to positive caster by the same amount. A 2" drop amounts to a 1 degree change in rake and a 1 degree increase in positive camber.
Thanks Lynn, that is interesting I didn't think it would be that much either..
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-01-31 08:37
quote: "The trunk looks good, is that a zolatone type paint you used?"
not sure what Zolatone is. This is the spray can splatter stuff. Black with aqua followed by lots of satin clear. I really need to get my whole car detailed out. The trunk I had always figured on carpet and side panels, trunk lid cover, etc. May not get done, but the splatter stuff looks great when it hasn't been abused.
Zolatone is like a splatter type paint but it's pretty durable. After the wood paneling in my panel truck fell apart I sprayed the interior with it. It was a common product used on things like the interiors of Andy Gumps before they went to the plastic/fiberglass?
http://www.zolatone.com/
Zolatone???....Andy Gumps???..... lol, where the heck do you live??
I think the splatter stuff they sell in auto zones, etc are more like the craft type hardware store Stonefleck stuff...not very durable, and certainly not with their topcoat.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-01-31 09:59
Zolatone???....Andy Gumps???..... lol, where the heck do you live??
I think the splatter stuff they sell in auto zones, etc are more like the craft type hardware store Stonefleck stuff...not very durable, and certainly not with their topcoat.
I still live in a cave but I know about Zolatone :003: Did you read the info in the link about classic car trunks? Even Eastwood carries Zolatone, it's been around for ages.
I'll look into it further. Looks interesting. This is the first I've heard about it. Thanks, Jim!
Got my replacement for the replacement speedometer installed tonight. The nighttime color is SO much better than before. It's not an exact match, but I am happy with their efforts to get it where it is. Actually, the color is almost an exact match, it's the type of lighting that differs.
The first pic is as I posted last month, and the second is what I have now.
When I have the $, I'll order a matching tachometer, but now I can leave the small gages as is.
So the idiots that call themselves the mail carriers" never came up with the one THEY lost?
More advertising for UPS or Fed-Ex eh?
Looks good! :003:
They never found it, denied my insurance claim. I appealed and am waiting on that.
LOL!!! But watch...they'll be looking for a rate increase soon...because they are running a deficit...a rate increase that WE have to pay...so they can keep up with their "stellar" job!
Looks good...too bad it was such a hassle!
I have not been keeping in touch very much. Question for Rich. Do you still have the primed panels on your car, or have you painted body color?
Jay...all painted (for now). Next summer I will repaint the roof to fix some adhesion problems with the seam sealer in the gutters.
Rich, it's about time that you cancel the house buying thing and get going on the road trip. I can't seem to get enough pics of your car.... :002: :003:
I would probably not have built it that way, but I just love your car. it's beautiful! Please do take her out and get us some more pics !
Rich///I second what DJ said...I love looking at pics of your car! (I would have probably not painted it black, been down that road...too hard to keep clean!) But it looks so sweet when out on location shots! SWEET!
look a little further back in the build thread Hugh. Rich's car is a beautiful metallic gun metal color. I am sure he will come up with the color's name and origin. Most original 57 colors are very nice, there was a Gunmetal grey available as a factory paint.
I doubt Rich's is the og color code, and it simply looks great, no matter what.
Ah...the pics I have seen (all out doors) the sun makes it look darker. Still...looks oh so nice! I should hope mine will when I finish it.
(thanks)
Thanks guys!.
I'd love another roadtrip in it, but Weather here is too iffy for long trips. I'm definetly going to have to cancel my Florida trip for this year. The actual moving thing is something I'm not looking forward to, but any of the few '57 forum guys that have been to my house will totally understand why I'm happy to move from the immediate area. I'll miss being so close to the old 66 historic district....you never know what you'll see just 2 blocks from my house, but the entire San Jacinto area that was built in the 20's has too many abandoned, decaying properties. Maybe one or two houses on each block has been rebuilt and is kept up. In the block across the street, 4 of the 8 houses have been vacant for years. Most of the properties in San Jacinto have been bought by slumlords for rentals. LOL...one house across the street, maybe 1K sq ft, has had 15 people living in it for 2 or 3 years now....6 adults, 9 kids!
Timing is actually good since I now have the '57 on the road....at least I'll be able to get in a few weekend trips now and then. It would have been really frustrating if I had to stop working on it before it was roadworthy.
Mustang 6984...your name is Hugh? The color is from a 2003 or 2005 Chevy HHR. Dark Tarnished Silver is the name. I like the fact it changes so much with the available light, but it always stays neutral ......something I was paying a lot of attention to when choosing a color. Most silvers will take on a different cast/hue when the lighting changes..greenish, or purple, or ??. This one doesn't. Only the tonal range changes (dark to light).
It's a smart looking ride! Hope to get to see it in person one of these days on my travels.
My lost speedometer fiasco..........I got a call from Speedhut yesterday. The post office delivered the package yesterday postmarked Jan 3rd!!!!!
How's this for customer service........I told William just to ups or Fed Ex them back to me and I'd pay for shipping. He said they'd cover the shipping, but asked if I needed 2 speedometers. When I said no, he told me they would refund the purchase back to my PayPal account!! Especially since I never even asked, that's CUSTOMER SERVICE in anyone's opinion!
The U.S. Post Office could take lessons from them...SHOULD take lessons from them! Congrats!
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2017-03-14 10:30
My lost speedometer fiasco..........I got a call from Speedhut yesterday. The post office delivered the package yesterday postmarked Jan 3rd!!!!!
How's this for customer service........I told William just to ups or Fed Ex them back to me and I'd pay for shipping. He said they'd cover the shipping, but asked if I needed 2 speedometers. When I said no, he told me they would refund the purchase back to my PayPal account!! Especially since I never even asked, that's CUSTOMER SERVICE in anyone's opinion!
Back in the 80's I used a mail service for developing pictures ( Seattle Filmworks ) My Colorado vacation pictures never arrived, they confirmed they mailed them. I wrote them off as lost, then to my shock the USPS showed up with them exactly one year later. Where the hell were they for a year?
Someone's back seat...cause he didn't have time to deliver all the mail one day and still get to the tavern for Taco Tuesday with his buddies! LOL!!!
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2017-03-14 19:41
Back in the 80's I used a mail service for developing pictures ( Seattle Filmworks ) My Colorado vacation pictures never arrived, they confirmed they mailed them. I wrote them off as lost, then to my shock the USPS showed up with them exactly one year later. Where the hell were they for a year?
Forgot to post this. Instead of having Speedhut refund my money for the speedometer, I told them just to make me a matching tachometer. Works for both of us since I was going to order one when I had the $ anyways.
Win-win for all...except the stinking Post Office! If the government runs it...then it is gonna be substandard!
Got the matching tachometer delivered this week. Probably be a month or so before I can get back to projects on the car. The post office just yesterday sent me another email saying they're still searching for the lost package, lol.
My '57 is over in the new house now to get it out of the way of moving stuff out of the old house. We're hoping to move our furniture and stuff there next weekend. Good thing we were not planning on this week. Wind chill of 19 degrees most of yesterday. Freezing rain, snow, fallen branches all over our old yard/driveway. Almost afraid to see the new house. Had to turn the heat back on yesterday!! URGGG!!!
I feel your pain. Two days of high winds but 90 temp, branches and crap all over the yard, lost one small tree. I worked for 2 hours cleaning and haven't made a dent :003:
Wow....about 9 months since my last update.
Most of that time was spent on the new '57 house. Lots and lots of mostly redecorating/cosmetic stuff with a few remodelling projects. I've been a plumber, bricklayer, painter, wallpaperer, finish carpenter, electrician, gutterman (?), appliance installer, drywaller, tiler, and probably others I've forgot.
Before we bought the house, my plans for last summer were to repair/repaint the roof on my '57. That obviously didn't happen, but at least I got the new garage about 75% completed. I finally put a hold on the wife's honey-do list to get at least a few things done on the car. Show and cruising season around here starts in the beginning of april, with the DFW Goodguys April 3 I think. I was also getting worried about the roof on the car maybe developing some rust issues bad enough to require welding to fix, so I sure didn't want to put it off any longer and maybe have to get into new headliner removal, etc. Last weekend I finally got over to the old house and picked up my compressor. It's up and running, although not in it's final resting place as that's the one corner of the garage I hadn't restored the drywall as of yet.
The problem with the roof on my '57.........paint around the driprail seam sealer was lifting and bubbling. It started a few years ago, and I made the decision to repair / repaint the roof seperatly from when I repainted the bottom of the car in '16.
Yesterday I lit up the 4" grinder with a flap disc, stood back for a minute, took a deep breath, said sheeeeeeet, and started taking paint off the roof edges at the drip rail.
Up until yesterday, I thought I had made two rookie mistakes way back when I initially did the roof about 8 years ago. I thought I had laid down the seam sealer on metal that had only a coating left from the zinc phosphate treatment. That would have been the two mistakes right there. After cleaning out some of the drip rail last night, I realized I had only made one mistake, and that was leaving the zinc phosphate coating under the epoxy primer. The seam sealer was in fact put over the epoxy primer, as it should have been, and it was the epoxy primer that was having the adhesion problem due to the phosphate coating.
To be continued
continued.....I do not have an adhesion problem with the paint other than around the driprails because that was the only areas I had left the Zinc Phosphate (Por-15 Metal Ready) coating. The rest of the roof I had jitterbugged to shiney metal prior to the epoxy primer.
The good news is there was only surface rust as expected in those areas where it was lifting, but nothing serious.
Am I going to use the zinc phospate treatment again this time prior to repaint? Absolutely! When I left the coating in the gutters, I was working under the wrong information that the coating would help improve adhesion, something I realized was wrong before I started working on the main body of the car.
The zinc phosphate is needed to convert the rust (I forget the chemistry and technical name), and the coating left will protect metal from rerusting until you get around to painting. The coating can be left on if you're only por-15'ing over it, but any other automotive primers require the coating to be removed completely.
Understanding that last sentence can make the difference of tons of work and hundreds of dollars in materials.........I found out the hard way.
Whatever seam sealer I used in those driprails was very dood. It stuck very well, very tough and still very elastic, which makes it a chore removing. I almost wished I hadn't done such a good job forcing it into all the nooks and crannies. It took 3 hours yesterday to remove it from about 2 feet. Got all kinds of scrapers, carving tools,picks, etc, but the best one I've found to work well is a carbide grout removal tool that I just bought a few weeks ago for you guessed it.a house project, lol
Ouch, Rich ! It even hurts to think about cutting into fresh paint and after all the work that you put into finishing the roof.
Those drip rails are one of the weakest points in a 57 Ford, right next to the cowl vent drains. the design of the rain gutters, roof skin and inner reinforcement is plain horrible, especially since Ford did not use primer or any rust protection inside. Sedans are better off than wagons, in that the C pillar slopes down an automatically drains condensed water to the quarter panels. That rain gutter area mostly rusts from INSIDE ! Having a Southern or Western car it might just be a problem with the original seam sealer crackin and letting moisture creep under the paint. anyways what I am trying to say is. the rust is there. And me personally I don't like the thought of 'converting' rust. no good, it's still rust. so you have to remove the rust with either media balsting or chemically. I have had extremely good results with vinegar acid dipping (which can't be done on the roof). In Germany somebody is producing a rust removal paste called RustDelete which works well. it's made of citric acid, sawdust and a few more things to keep it wet. you need to apply a thick (1/8) layer and leave it overnight, covering with plastic. it eats away the rust and leaves bare metal. then wash off with plenty of fresh water and dry with compressed air. what you have is bare metal and it will be the best foundation for epoxy primer. I am sure that similar stuff is available in the US.
I may have misspoke when I used the word convert. The Metal Ready product is actually a phosphoric acid etch. It is not like the products that turn the rust black. I use it because there are places you cannot reach mechanically, and I only use it as a final "neutralizer" after as much accessible rust as possible is removed. When something is going to be finish paint topcoated, I prepare the surface removing contaminants including the phosphoric coating.
my bad. I thought you were using a rust converter.
how are you going to mechanically remove the phosphoric coating?
Probably most of it in the driprail can be removed with rotary wire brushes. They'll be some hand brushing with toothbrush shaped wire brushes Anything accessible outside the gutter will be jitterbugged. There will be traces left in crevasses for sure, but I think I can remove enough so there will not be an adhesion problem. Believe me, I don't want to go thru this again, but IMHO it's still a better way to go than not treating it prior to epoxy prime. Additionally, btw, I will do this outside and flush it with water prior to coating removal to dilute anything left in crevasses.
Edit: Actually, upon rethinking, if the ZPhos. is kept wet and wiped off completely without it drying first(after it's done it's magic), there should be very minimal coating/residue left. At that point water and a Skotchbrite pad should get it off. That way there is no steel on steel posible imbedment as you would have if you used regular steel wool.
Sounds like YOUR "to-do" list is as involved as the boss' list! LOL!!!
getting it off while still wet sounds smart, Rich. Its the same way I do with vinegar or citric acid or related pastes. I am using a high pressure washer, where applicable. you can also think about carefully using a heat gun and/or compressed air for quicker drying. I am sure you will have no problem at all getting it down to bare metal with your skills. I was just thinking out loud, as I have the same work ahead on the Country Sedan. the drip rails were repaired just in the bad places by the PO, now I still have to clean and seal the surface rusted areas.
Actually, I misspoke again..lol......all this stuff is gradually coming back to me. With my experience with the product I use, there are actually two things left after the end of the process......the grey coating which is what tells you the process is complete, and a residue (yellow). It's the residue that can be wiped off while it's still wet, but the coating is a tough film that has to be removed mechanically...usually from sanding.
So, I'm still trying to decide which way to redo the driprails. After spending quite about 6 or 7 hours cleaning out about 4 feet of driprail, I was very impressed at how well the white seam sealer I put in there was adhering and how well it was staying tough and pliable, and no cracking. As I mentioned, I discovered my adhesion problem was with the primer under the seam sealer in some areas, not the seam sealer as I had thought.
We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.
Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2018-01-10 09:53
We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.
Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.
Rich
That's a good question.. How would someone remove the old panel bond stuff? It's supposed to be tough stuff. My guess would be heat but I really don't know..
Jay
We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.
Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.
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So...two ideas on the removal of the panel bonding glue.
#1) Wouldn't there be something on the package that says HOW to remove it should that be necessary?
#2) if there isn't, I would go to my favorite body shop and ask them how they do the deed.
Just a couple of thoughts on the subject FWIW. :002:
just cut gutters off. Problem solved.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2018-01-26 22:13
just cut gutters off. Problem solved.
LOL!!! You butcher you! :003:
Actually I did go ahead and use the panel bond. I went back and forth on this trying to figure out the best way to do this difficult area, and I decided the rust inhibitor qualities of the panel bond were worth any extra expense/work.
It's a pretty tough material after setting but at least the day after application, it sanded pretty easily, so removal if needed 20 years from now shouldn't be a problem. I would think wire brushing would be way to go for removal because of the limited access area, let me know in 20 years!
One tube was enough, but just barely. I had already decided the final shape was going to be from a coating of glaze/body filler. so I didn't purchase another 44. tube of the stuff and apply a second smoothing coat.The stuff applies pretty easily, can be pushed into cracks and crannies with your finger, but it does flash over pretty quickly, after which the stuff is hard to smooth without pulling/moving the stuff out of areas just pushed into. Result is, for me, not near as smooth and well shaped as I would have liked at application, but since we're using an adhesive product here, I sure can't complain.
Two things I always missed about the older cars our daily drivers do not have..rain gutters and wing windows. Even though removal of rain gutters is a common procedure on kustom cars, leadsleds, etc. they will remain on my car.
JFYI........I did change up one thing on what Pat recommended. After spending hours and hours thoroughly cleaning out the drip rails using all kinds of tools, and had it as clean as I possibly could, I wasn't 100% sure I got enough into the cracks and crevasses that CAN"T BE REACHED COMPLETELY. So, I went ahead and did the Zinc Chromate treatment to neutralize any rust in those areas. Those were areas I could see a light surface coat of rust, but couldn't reach. When I initially did the car, I sandblasted the driprails. That was not an option I wanted to consider now. The next morning I spent 3 or 4 hours removing the coating the phosphate left behind. Once again, still not 100%. The first time I painted the car, I left that coating in the driprails intentionally, this time I got as much out as posible, but given the fact, that's why I'm repainting my roof (epoxy primer not sticking to the zinc phosphate coating), I decided to change up what Pat recommended.
My reasoning:...Firstly, I sure didn't want to have the same problem again with adhesion or not enough epoxy primer in non accessible areas, and I knew there would be no adhesion problem with the panel bond, it has rust inhibitors, it could be forced into all the nooks and crannies that even spraying primers wouldn't reach (blowback, etc). With that in mind, I applied the panel bond to the bare metal driprails and sprayed with Epoxy primer AFTER I did a rough smoothing of the Panel Bond. That's where I'm at now. I let the epoxy cure for a couple of days (I went to Dallas, wasn't home anyways, lol).
Today I'll sand the epoxy a bit and start applying glaze filler in short sections at a time to get the final shape. When that's done I'll shoot the roof with a coat of high build, blocksand, and paint.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2018-01-27 11:22
JFYI......Today I'll sand the epoxy a bit and start applying glaze filler in short sections at a time to get the final shape. When that's done I'll shoot the roof with a coat of high build, blocksand, and paint.
I don't know much about this bonding process, but I spoke to a friend who owns a big body shop and he told me that he applies Sem 30492 over the bonding agent before putting filler on it because the bond will swell up.
Hopefully the guys that know more about it will chime in and advise you better than I can.
Good info, Jay. The swelling may be a problem inherit with the Sem's? And their plastic bond when their repairing plastic stuff? Not necessarily a problem with the 3M panel bond. I'm not applying filler over the panel bond though, as I've got the epoxy primer on top, before the filler goes on. I'm working that right now in small sections at a time so I can form the filler as good as possible before it starts to set up. Thankfully with the cooler temps, I have more time to work it.
I did come up with a very good sanding block for it this morning. It's stiff but flexible, has rounded edges, and the thickness is adjustable. I took 4 yellow plastic Bondo spreaders and stacked them so the thicker ends with the radiused edge is outside on the bottom. The inner two are thin end at the bottom. I taped the 4 together near but not at the top with masking tape, then used a self stick sandpaper at the working end to hold it together. An inner spreader can be pulled up an inch or so if needed at the back of the driprail where it gats very narrow. I did end up tapind the sandpaper as well because the adhesive wasn't sticking well enough to the plastic.
update.....told ya I was slowing down, lol. The top got in surface primer a week ago. Weather was suppose to be in the 60's today and tommorrow, so yesterday I blocked it out and got it cleaned up and ready to mask for final paint. After a cleaning and scuffing and more cleaning, I started to spray the basecoat this afternoon. Not good. I have a dedicated 1/2 air filter and hose setup I use just for my paint spraying. Apparently the bad compressor pump I had replaced last year had gotten oil and crap in the filter and lines. I didn't notice anything when I sprayed the primers last week, but my tack coat was getting all kinds of fisheyes, so I stopped. I know it wasn't the surface that was contaminated as I was very careful to use wax and grease remover as well as water based cleaners before I started anything, and several times in between. Long story short, I went down and picked up a new filter system, and a new 1/2 rubber air hose and replaced the inline filter at the gun as well. I even ran some solvents thru the air intake on the spray gun. I'll let the flash coat sit overnight, and block it with 600 in the A.M. and try once more with the new filter and hose setup. I also picked up some tinted acrylic sealer that I had used on the car the first time I painted it, so that'll be my first coat tommorrow hopefully sealing off any contaminants that were in what I sprayed today.
Wanted to share this with you guys since I had such a long and drawn out build thread here for years.
Got this yesterday at a small show in Lubbock. 150ish cars I would guess as mine was #132. Kinda different category, but the more I thought about it the more I liked it and appreciated it!
Kinda neat! I like it Rich. Congrats!
Congrats Rich!
Good to see you a the show yesterday. Definitely a First Class show that "Cook's Garage" puts on.
Pat
Yes it is........pretty well organized for just a second year show. More 57/58 Fords there than at the goodguys show 2 weeks ago. LOL, I did have to laugh though when I realized the parking lot was all gravel and dirt..........they obviously photoshoped their last year's pics to add paving, even with the parking space lines painted! They drew a heck of a crowd there as well.
Congrats Rich, Cool trophy too!
very cool trophy Rich. well deserved !
I keep coming back to liking your 57 so much all the time. (Now, I am not into modern drivetrains or interiors at all). but your car simply has it. right color, stance , hundreds of little details and, well. most innovative ! :003:
Now that it is getting spring and most probably your new garage has been set up....why don't you just get us some fresh pics of your pride and joy ?
Thanks Lynn, and DJ. I'll do that sir, I never have taken pics of my '57 in front of the '57 house. My garage is so cluttered and dirty already with all the woodworking projects I've had going on!...........no pictures of the inside til I get it cleaned up and finished. Not sure when that'll happen, lol.
Forgot my camera this past weekend, or could posted pics of Pat's really solid Ranchwagon, his dad's '58 mostly original retractable, and a friends '57 Ranchero from Amarillo that's sitting on a '87 Mercury Marquis frame and drivetrain.
I'll definetly get some pics in a week and a half when I take it to the NSRA show in OKLA. City, and hopefully in Rio Rancho, NM at the end of the month.
Got some fixin' to do. My A/C sprung a leak. Turns out it was the compressor. My AC guy said he could just replace the seal, but I opted to replace the 23 year old unit with a new one, which I picked up today, complete with clutch assembly. My A/C guy with all the fancy equiptment is going out of town for three or 4 days, so I told him I'd put the new one in and bring it over to him when he gets back to run pressure tests and recharge with an added dye as I suspect I may have an additional very slow leak. He'll be back wednesday, but I'm wanting to leave next Friday for a show in Red River, NM.
Question...what sort of air unit are you running? I'm thinking of going with Vintage Air in mine.
Very nice Rich. The processes you went through to make it work are completely unknown to anyone but a true motor head. Very nice someone did appreciate the work and tremendous amount of "trial and error" a build such as yours requires to come out as perfect as yours did! I know it is going to be hard to keep the hat size the same.....:<)
Mustang: I'm running a Gen IV Magnum from Vintage air. Everything but the compressor is VA. The compressor is the stock Lincoln unit FS-10. I am running a Ron Francis 70 amp relay because of the cooling fan amp requirements. There is plenty of room for the Gen IV evaporator under the dash, but you will lose some of your glove box, or all of it depending on where you mount the evaporator. Mine is more away from the firewall (actually cut into the lower dash a little), and all the way to the passenger side sidewall than most guys would have to be because my windshield wiper motor was moved to inside the cowl, and removes from under the dash.
Nice compliments, Bill. They're always appreciated from you guys!
I've got the compressor unhooked from everything and ready to be unbolted. I'm not sure at this point if it's going to drop out without removing stuff. At least it's not still in the Mark VIII. Looking at the shop repair manual, removal starts with removing the cooling fans and radiator!! I really struggle with this stuff anymore. My old body just doesn't cooperate, and my hand strength is really diminished..
Old compressor is out with no clearance problems. It is centered right above the lower control arm with that big open arc leaving plenty of room for bolt access and clearance for the compressor to just drop on out. Yay!! I've got the new one prepped and ready to go in, just cleaning up the area as well as I can so the leak test dye will show up if I have a leak. After I rest a bit, I'll take a nap then see if I can lift/hold it into place and get a bolt in there.
Thanks Rich. Appreciate the info.
I'm in Missouri right now...about 6 hours from you...should I pop over and give ya' a hand? :003:
Appreciate the offer, but I got it done this afternoon, but still feel free to pop over.
Would have been easy with the car on a lift.
BTW, Motorcraft compressors come with a 2 year warranty IF you replace the dryer ( or accumulator), system hoses and condenser. I think I have 4 or 500. wrapped up in hoses alone, plus lots of hours. Hope it's a trouble free compressor since I won't have a warranty.
Update: A/c has been working fine, but I've moved on to another car project I had been putting on the back burners for too long. I'm sure most of you know I've been putting lots of miles on the car, and it's been running very strong at highway speeds. However, around town stop and go, traffic, etc., it's been getting progressively worse. Idling has always been an issue, and throwing codes since day one. Idling got to the point it didn't want to slow down when I took my foot off the accelerator, and practically standing on the brakes at a stoplight, and the surging up and down was getting progressively worse.
Found an ex Ford certified master technician with all the scanners and analyzing stuff to work on OBD1 systems, and he spent a few hours looking and fixing some stuff. He got the car running quite better, but at closing time he told me to work on the air plenum, install another MAF sensor he had in stock, and to get done the stuff I had told him I planned on doing. He had checked all the sensors and said they seemed to be functioning properly, but not getting or sending the correct signals due to the car running too lean, and he felt that was causing a domino efect on the O2 sensors, egr, etc.
So, in the past few days, I've removed the throttle body and gave it a thorough cleaning, replaced the throttle position sensor, pcv valve, and had a real struggle access wise to replace the idle air control valve, but got it done.
Just a head's up for you 4.6 guys: at least some of the aftermarket idle control valves do NOT have an oem style connector. I found out the hard way. I forgot to check the replacement I had purchased a year ago against the oem before I spent hours struggling to install the new one. The good news is I was able to buy a connector in stock at the local NAPA store. The bad news is I had to splice it into my Ron Francis wiring. I avoided spicing like the plague when I wired the car, also that little 1" wide connector with two 6" wires was a whopping 34.00 !!!!!!!!
THE GOOD NEWS: car is running radically better. It idles great with no surging, it actually slows down when I take my foot of the gas. Response has always been good when hitting the gas, but now the response is good when taking my foot off it, YAY!
Only downside is the car is still throwing codes, so on to the next step. I bought a set of injectors a year ago I never installed, so I'll get those on tonight or tomorrow, and give those a test run. If those work as they should, I'll install the MAF sensor the mechanic gave me. I'm doing this one step at a time so if there are any issues with what I've done it'll be easier to trace back. Jeff, my mechanic, has a gut feeling the lean condition is coming from the MAF sensor. At that point, I'll reset the computer to force it to relearn and go from there. Jeff is also going to do a smoke test on the vacumn system.
Edit......misspoke.........it's called an idle air valve, not idle control as posted above.
WHEW!!! I thought tri-power was bad! LOL!!!
I'm going to start posting some links to oddball threads used on my build to help me find stuff when I'm looking for something in particular. This one is for the
hydraulic hood lifts.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=4641.0#msg34101
I need to order some replacement lifts as mine are showing signs of wear. The lifts still hold the hood up, but not in any position as they had been doing.
Three years later, btw, I love this mod! Now, soon, I get to see if the extra work I went thru to make replacement easier is actually going to pan out!
Gas tank and air intake modifications: http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3750.300
carpeting http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3518.msg21046#msg21046
Rack and pinion info http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5600.msg44225#msg44225
Ride height approximately post 400 thru 480 http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5795.405
shocks http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5795.msg49669;topicseen#msg49669
Windlace http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=994.15
Headliner/windlace http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg18136#msg18136
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3139.15
radiator hoses, thermostat housing http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3750.240
Modified trans crossmember http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3750.135
Gas pedal mods for cable http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=3750.165
Kick panels (sunvisors on next page) http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5795.30
Engine replace http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=7786.0
rear disc brakes http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5795.255 starts at post 264
hood hydaulic lifts http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=4641.0
Hydroboost plumbing https://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=9090.msg90205#msg90205.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-01-11 08:07
Three years later, btw, I love this mod! Now, soon, I get to see if the extra work I went thru to make replacement easier is actually going to pan out!
With you on that Rich! Lots of time spent figuring out the "how, what, and where" of down the road repairs instead of going the "easy" route! I like to call it "six pack engineering".......
The silver lining in replacing my engine is I now know a bit more about the way stuff works. For example, the intake has 16 runners. I knew the engine was suppose to run on 8 of the 16 until it reached 3000 rpm, when the other 8 would open up. I had no idea how that happened mechanically, but now I do, and it's actually pretty simple.
There are two intake "logs" that the intake manifold bolts to, each having 8 ports. Every other port has a butterfly valve. Those 4 butterfly valves are all mounted to the same rod that passes the length of the log. At the back end, that rod is connected to a vacuum dashpot. The vacuum to that dashpot is controlled by an electronic switch that gets signals from the computer. With no vacuum (engine off), the valves are open. As soon as the engine starts, every other valves are suppose to close. They will be opened again when needed at 3000 rpm by the computer sending a signal to the switch.
I've talked alot about idle problems I've had, so when I pulled my engine apart, I was looking at stuff that would affect the idle. I thoroughly cleaned the logs I talked about above,and made sure the butterflies were operating freely. I also pulled a vacuum on the dashpots, and they immediatly closed the valves. So, that part is all good. After I get my replacement engine up and running, I now know to look and see if the vacuum switch and lines are functioning. I simply need to watch for movement by the dashpots as soon as the engine is started. No movement would mean too much air at idle.
I did also find my EGR valve on the old engine was not seated. It is seated correctly on the replacement engine. That could have been an idle issue as well, and the cause of some egr related codes the computer was throwing. Another thing I fixed, there is an EGR sensor that was suppose to be mounted in a verticle (arrow up) position. It wasn't. I had to replace silicon hoses and change the wiring a bit, but the sensor is now positioned properly. It is the sensor/reader that has hose connections to the tube running off the O2 sensors to the EGR valve.
My head hurts! And I thought synchronizing a tri-power was hard! LOL!!!
Getting closer Rich !
OK..another year down the road, another 8k miles or so. The car has been running great, I'm really happy with the steering changes I made while the engine was out last year. I just recently replaced the upper and lower ball joints to get good boots on them. While I had it apart, we also replaced the brake pads, rotors, wheel bearings, and shocks (front and rear). I had it aligned afterward, and my guy told me nothing had moved, all the readings were as he set them over a year ago.
These past few weeks I've been working on changes. On a road trip to Oklahoma last week, one of my hood pins came loose and scared the crap out of me, but the other one held, so I never had to find out if the secondary safety catch would hold at 75mph (while passing 3 semi's:103:). I slowed to 40 and stopped at a hardware store and jury rigged a temporary fix. Well, this was obviously a "what was I thinking" when I realized I was lucky the fitting held for 4 years and 39k miles. I had used the spot welded threaded fitting that was meant for the hood bumpers for the hood pins. Those fittings were never meant to hold under pulling stress. The fix was easy though, I just tack welded the fitting to the cowl with the fitting under the cowl sheetmetal. Soooooo. if anyone is contemplating hood pins in liew of the oem hood latch, make sure you remove the fittings from the cowl in their current "on top" location and weld them in under the sheet metal.
Another change I did was to replace the cowl screen that I had sealed/rubberized to keep water out after I welded my air vents shut. May not be a problem for others, but the 4.6 dohc in mine generates substantial external heat. I realized my cowl on a hot day was getting even hotter than my hood because the heat buildup had no way of escaping. I'm pretty sure that was the source of the "heat wave" I was feeling from under the dash on a longer drive.
My next project is finding a cure for my gas tank vent gas seepage. I have an in-tank fuel pump that is installed on a recess box so the fittings and tubing all clear the trunk floor. I also installed a tip-over vent valve in the pump mounting plate. The problem with this, is with the 1 3/8 recess, when the tank is full, the vent fitting is "under water". Added to that issue is the fact I have my tank tipped down in the front about 5/8 for added fuel line clearance. This makes the fuel level even higher in the front. Before I remove the tank and rework/modify a floor brace for the clearance I need, I am going to try just using a vented gas cap. A few of the members on the 52-59 Hamb club use the vented cap with no issues.
Anyway, those are a few "don't do as I did" things probably covered early in this build thread.
BTW, the front and rear shocks I replaced. I just assumed after close to 40k miles, they were getting worn out. KYBs on the front and the Monroe '55 shocks on the back. They were really still in great shape and had I not already bought them in anticipation of getting the car ready for my friend to work on it for me, I probably wouldn't have replaced them.
Rich, that is great info and the fact that you take the time for these types of updates is appreciated. Like all I have a list of problems, attempted solutions, successes and failures. My issue in not sharing these is that my car is becoming increasingly modified so I am not sure of the mutual benefit to others.
Yep, I run into some stuff that would be of no use to others because of my one-off mods. Your car, Lynn, is much more traditional mods and common than mine, lol.
One thing I should have mentioned above is a few details on replacing my front rotors already.........I'm having increasing difficulty doing some work on the car because of old age physical limitations. I will get it done if I have to, but sometimes I just have stuff done for me. My friend Kip's hot rod garage is usually full of long term projects with no time or space to work on mine, but the timing worked out great this time because he actually needed some in and out fast work, so he could pay some bills. He was squeezing mine in before he got back to a must-have done job, and my car was blocking access to getting that other job in and out. He's had a problem getting rotors turned at the local parts houses because of a lack of experienced employees there that know what they are doing. He sent mine to a third store in hopes there would be no problem, but they called him and said my rotors were warped too bad to be resurfaced. WTH?? I had absolutely no pulsating of my brake pedal, so we didn't believe it. They sent him a video of the runout, and Kip mentioned to me he noticed the spindle the rotor was mounted on seemed to be running out!! Anyway, rather than tying his space up trying to find another shop to resurface the rotors, I just purchased some new ones so he could get it buttoned up. I still don't think they were bad, but new ones solved the time issue.
Rich and Lynn, your reports on stuff replaced or issues solved, are much appreciated. that is real bench racing. I can't thank you enough for all the great info provided with these honest, down to earth trouble shooting. we all run into this stuff at some point.imho, its much more important to fix the small stuff rather than hopping up an engine to the point where it can't be driven anymore. that makes no sense to me at all. rather fxing those problems of slight overheating, out of round rotors, hood stops or what have you ! Thanx alot !
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2020-09-04 08:20
Rich, that is great info and the fact that you take the time for these types of updates is appreciated. Like all I have a list of problems, attempted solutions, successes and failures. My issue in not sharing these is that my car is becoming increasingly modified so I am not sure of the mutual benefit to others.
I for one will soak up like a sponge ANY modified info you wish to share. :003: I may or may not use some of them...but I WILL read every one! Mine is not going to be anywhere near stock either...so if you want to share...go for it!
Replacing the closed-up screen under the cowl grille with a normal screen helped quite a bit keeping the cabin cool. I've had it out for a few long drives with temps well into the 90's and so far I haven't felt the heat blast from under the dash. Took the dog out for a ride Monday, it was 90*, this morning it is 40* here! I haven't looked for a vented cap for the gas tank yet, but in the meantime I'm just not filling it up all the way.
Well, I actually went thru and read a lot of the 52 pages. Kinda worrisome in places because I totally didn't remember some of the conversations I was deeply involved in. BTW, my gas tank's vent seepage was finally corrected by drilling a 1/16 hole in the gas cap.
:iamwithstupid: Like my dad used to say "Getting old ain't for sissies" (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0012.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
Bringing this thread back to the top because it's got lots of topics touched on for those who weren't here way back when.