Yesterday I finally brought my Ranchero home to begin the rebuild. The body will be off soon and the first thing I'll be doing is the frame. So with that in mind, I'm looking for advise from those of you that have been down this road as to what parts to buy and from whom.This will not be a restored car. It will be a Hot Rod.
I've already bought dropped spindles and brakes from Drop 'em Stop 'em.
Coil Springs? Ball Joints? A frame bushings? Delrin A frame bushings?
What do you all think of the Borgeson Power Steering unit?
Shocks? Sway bars? Front and rear?
What have I not mentioned that I should know about before jumping in?
I only want to do it once and do it right. So please share with me you knowledge and experience.
Thanks
John
John, you are a brave man for asking this question... everybody has an opinion and you will hear a lot of em. Here is mine... stock springs in the front (since you have dropped spindles), station wagon (stock) springs in the rear. Front sway bar from Quickor Garage... it mounts like a 1959 stock bar and will not give you wheel/tire clearance issues. Rear bar from Concours Parts, it mounts above the axle. Front shocks...Bilstein, expensive but worth the money. Rear shocks...I have Gabriel Highjackers air shocks for adjusting the rake. I would use urethane bushings for the lower control arms and '58/'59 bushings for the uppers. Borgeson Power steering... (I think it is a better match for the suspension geometry than rack and pinion). Ball joints...dunno just make sure they are domestic. I might consider narrowing the rear end 1 1/2" inch for tire clearance.
In my opinion these mods will greatly improve the original performance and function without re-engineering the whole suspension. If money were no object I would buy a new custom frame from Fatman or Art Morrison. Good luck with sorting out all the advice I am sure you will get.
Thanks for your reply. I hope to get a lot of opinions. I was thinking stock coil springs. Any particular manufacturer? When you say Station Wagon Springs in the rear ( stock).....the Wagon springs are the same as A Ranchero, are they not?
I'll look into the sway bars and shocks. I understand the lower urethane bushings, but what is the difference in '57 uppers vs. '58/'59 uppers? I've heard good things about the Borgeson Power Steering. Ball joints from USA was on my list .
Now , about the rear end........Ford 9 inch? Or 8 inch? When you say narrowing it 1 1/2 , you are saying 3/4 " on a side for a total of 1 1/2 inches......correct?
Unfortunately, money is a concern in this build, so I will not be calling Fatman or Art Morrison.
Many thanks for your input.
John
Alot of what Lynn said...Stock coils on the front due to your dropped spindles...Eaton's Detroit for those.
Rear springs from McVeigh's. wagons/Rancheros/police are 6 leaf (that's what I'll order...you can always remove a few leafs), the passenger car they list have 4 springs.
NOT SURE IF GEOMETRY IS A PROBLEM WITH r & p, i'LL KNOW BY NEXT YEAR. JT Fabrications for the R & P. You do lose some turning radius, but gain lots of exhaust clearance.
I'm reading that the '59 sway bar is a bear to install. The concorse/TBirds Southwest is a snap. Tire clearance shouldn't be an issue for those with R & P, as they've already lost that turning radius.
Yes 3/4 narrowed on each side for the oem 9" rear..total of 1 1/2
Search for a thread on rear shocks...Jim Nolan experimented and came up with '56 Ford (?)shocks for longer travel...less of an issue with tire changes (as is the narrowing of the rear end). I keep saving and losing that thread for some reason.
Thanks Rich. Great information.........I appreciate it very much.
John
I found Jim's thread ....
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=2674.msg15175#msg15175
Forgot a biggie.....the body mount kits that all the vendors sell is manufactured by Dennis Carpenter. When they are out of stock, everybody is. I had to wait almost a year before they made a run of them, so order them early just to make sure. The other issue with that may be I'm not sure DC makes a body mount kit for the Ranchero, so it may take some time/research to find out what the ranchero guys are using.
John, years ago I used a Fatman kit to install a Volvo box in a 51 Ford. The steering on a 57 is pretty much the same. Now that Volvo box is almost impossible to find, However Cadillac Cateras used a even better improved version of that same box, physically they're almost identical. The same box was also used in Isuzu Rodeos and the Honda version. They're incredible power with a good road feel. I bought from a local guy that was parting one out (got everything) for $45. I believe it will work nicely and if not didn't spent much. I haven't seen a Borgenson box install someone can correct me but they look really bulky might make things tight for exhaust routing. The box that Gearheads sells gets nothing but bad reviews on the HAMB, not sure if they're still in business or not.
If you even consider this box be sure and get the joint that connects box to column, no source for them in the marketplace.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: KYBlueOval on 2015-06-29 21:00
Thanks for your reply. I hope to get a lot of opinions. I was thinking stock coil springs. Any particular manufacturer? When you say Station Wagon Springs in the rear ( stock).....the Wagon springs are the same as A Ranchero, are they not?
I'll look into the sway bars and shocks. I understand the lower urethane bushings, but what is the difference in '57 uppers vs. '58/'59 uppers? I've heard good things about the Borgeson Power Steering. Ball joints from USA was on my list .
Now , about the rear end........Ford 9 inch? Or 8 inch? When you say narrowing it 1 1/2 , you are saying 3/4 " on a side for a total of 1 1/2 inches......correct?
Unfortunately, money is a concern in this build, so I will not be calling Fatman or Art Morrison.
Many thanks for your input.
John
Clarifications; Springs.... Eaton is a great spring company, they can custom wind springs and if you are going to replace your front springs they can compensate for engine/transmission/accessory weights, McVeigh for the rear. I forgot when I was posting that you already had 6 leaf springs, so I added "(stock)". Bushings.... the '58/'59 upper control arm bushings are a factory improvement that retro fit. I prefer upgrading to later model improvements when possible. Rear end... 3/4" on each side and I would use the 9". Sway bar.... Rich is right, the Quickor front sway bar is tougher to install on an assembled car, shouldn't be an issue while rebuilding a frame.
Steering.... conventional recirculating ball steering boxes like the Borgeson are not sensitive to "feedback", in other words bumping the pitman arm does not move the steering wheel much. On the other hand rack and pinion boxes are very sensitive to suspension movements, a movement of the rack moves the steering wheel directly. This is considered a desirable feedback. The problem that this creates is a steering set up that is very sensitive particularly when trying hold a straight line. To compensate for that, modern cars incorporate suspension geometry that use a lot of positive caster angle. A high posistive caster angle causes the car to hold a straight line but makes the car harder to turn. '57 Fords use very low positive caster settings as part of their suspension geometry, better suited to conventional steering boxes in my opinion. I also personally think that turning radius is important to drivability and rack and pinion steering generally will sacrifice turning radius. Chassis builders typically will re-engineer the suspension geometry to fix these issues, so it can be done, but.....
Thanks to all of you that have offered advise...........I really appreciate it! This is exactly the information I was hoping to get. Keep it coming!
John
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-06-29 19:19
John, you are a brave man for asking this question... everybody has an opinion and you will hear a lot of em. Here is mine... stock springs in the front (since you have dropped spindles), station wagon (stock) springs in the rear. Front sway bar from Quickor Garage... it mounts like a 1959 stock bar and will not give you wheel/tire clearance issues. Rear bar from Concours Parts, it mounts above the axle. Front shocks...Bilstein, expensive but worth the money. Rear shocks...I have Gabriel Highjackers air shocks for adjusting the rake. I would use urethane bushings for the lower control arms and '58/'59 bushings for the uppers. Borgeson Power steering... (I think it is a better match for the suspension geometry than rack and pinion). Ball joints...dunno just make sure they are domestic. I might consider narrowing the rear end 1 1/2" inch for tire clearance.
In my opinion these mods will greatly improve the original performance and function without re-engineering the whole suspension. If money were no object I would buy a new custom frame from Fatman or Art Morrison. Good luck with sorting out all the advice I am sure you will get.
I've been buying suspension parts as I'm about ready to lift the body and get started on the frame. Front and rear springs and ball joints ordered, along with rubber bumpers and misc. other parts. I'm having difficulty finding a source for the urethane lower control arm bushings. Where do I get them?
Upper control arm bushings for a '58/'59......is there another source besides Mac's in Lockport NY.? They have them at $24.00 a piece. Seems a little high, but if they are THE source and the parts are what I need, I'll part with the $100.00 for the right bushings.
Thanks
John
John, look at this thread. It has info you are looking for. The urethane bushings may have to be modified, the upper arms will need different pivot arms.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5679.msg46720#msg46720
I see you're looking for a replacement bed...are you sure you want to pull the body off the frame before that is done?
The bed is a one piece item with a gajillion bolts that hold it down. I do not think it needs to be in place to lift the body as the entire under structure is basically 300 including the rear foot wells. Mine actually twists less then the Edsel when jacking on one side.
Now having said all of that, be carefull as much rust can be hidden in that structure!
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-07-15 14:11
John, look at this thread. It has info you are looking for. The urethane bushings may have to be modified, the upper arms will need different pivot arms.
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=5679.msg46720#msg46720
Thanks for that thread. I've read it all several times. And as always, I take the advise of those that have come before me on these very same issues, and you have never let me down. Now, I have this question. To do this, must I use the '58 bar in the '57 control arm, or can I just use the '58 control arm? I'm rebuilding the entire front end, springs, ball joints, bushings etc.. So.....Can I get a used pair of '58 Upper Control Arms and rebuild them with bushings and ball joints and install or must I swap out the bar on the '57 control arm for the bar in the '58 control arm, and then rebuild? I guess my question distills down to this.......are the '57 and '58 control arm stampings the same with different bars and bushings. Now to further confuse things...........are the '58 Ford Upper Control Arms the exact same Control arm as used on short wheel base '58 Edsels? I ask, as the Edsel National Meet will be in Louisville next week, and I can make a phone call or two and have a pair brought to their swap meet.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
John
Thsnks
John
Quote from: KYBlueOval on 2015-07-16 02:38
Now to further confuse things...........are the '58 Ford Upper Control Arms the exact same Control arm as used on short wheel base '58 Edsels? I ask, as the Edsel National Meet will be in Louisville next week, and I can make a phone call or two and have a pair brought to their swap meet.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
John
Thsnks
John
YES, the junior series Edsel chassis (Ranger & Pacer) were in essence 57/58 Ford chassis.
Thanks Blue Blood!. I've been researching it and came to the same conclusion, and now I have confirmation. I can move forward now.
Thank you
John
57-64 Upper arms are the same, 58-60 small Edsels too.
Dial in more positive caster if you are using radials and power steering.
I wouldn't bother changing the front springs unless they are sagging.
Be sure to change the pads under the tops of the springs anyway.
The Carpenter body mounts should fit most of the mount locations as the
front half of the Customs is the same as the Ranchero.
The Retract&Convert mounts are very different.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Thanks for the reply / information. I was just about to post a question on the Carpenter Kit and its application to Rancheros. Might still do it to find out what solutions others have come up with for the back end mounts.
Thank you!
John
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-06-29 19:19
John, you are a brave man for asking this question... everybody has an opinion and you will hear a lot of em. Here is mine... stock springs in the front (since you have dropped spindles), station wagon (stock) springs in the rear. Front sway bar from Quickor Garage... it mounts like a 1959 stock bar and will not give you wheel/tire clearance issues. Rear bar from Concours Parts, it mounts above the axle. Front shocks...Bilstein, expensive but worth the money. Rear shocks...I have Gabriel Highjackers air shocks for adjusting the rake. I would use urethane bushings for the lower control arms and '58/'59 bushings for the uppers. Borgeson Power steering... (I think it is a better match for the suspension geometry than rack and pinion). Ball joints...dunno just make sure they are domestic. I might consider narrowing the rear end 1 1/2" inch for tire clearance.
In my opinion these mods will greatly improve the original performance and function without re-engineering the whole suspension. If money were no object I would buy a new custom frame from Fatman or Art Morrison. Good luck with sorting out all the advice I am sure you will get.
Can you or anyone else, give me some information on where I can source the urethane bushings for use in the lower control arms. I've run into nothing but dead ends in trying to find a vendor.
Is there a close fit that can be cut down on a lathe? I would appreciate any help.
thanks
John
Here is a link to a company that makes universal urethane bushing sets in numerous sizes.
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/universal-link-flange-type-bushings.asp
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-07-21 13:12
Here is a link to a company that makes universal urethane bushing sets in numerous sizes.
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/universal-link-flange-type-bushings.asp
Went to the website and then spoke to their customer service dept. I'm confident I can get what I want, BUT, I need the dimensions of the stock lower control arm bushings. Anyone out there with this double secret information?
I also found a site that gives the dimensions of Moog Bushings, but I need a Moog Part # for the lower control arm bushing in order to get the information I want. Anyone have an old Moog #? It just might be listed.
Thanks
I think the part number is MOOG K8068, I found that on eBay. I looked at the MOOG dimensional pdf and it is listed. I would measure the control arm before I machined anything.
Thanks. I'm getting closer to the information I need. Where do I find this Moog dimensional pdf? Sounds like what I need.
And yes I'll verify the size of the Control Arm opening very shortly, before I purchase or start trimming a bushing to fit.
John
You guys lost me on what you're trying to do here. The oem control arm bushings are not just rubber, they are steel inner sleeve and a steel outer sleeve with a middle core of rubber moulded in. How are you going to replace that with urathane? I guess I don't understand what you are machining or trimming..it would seem to me they either make a replacement control arm bushing designed as original except urathane, or they don't.?
Also, jfyi, The steel outer sleeve with the flange has raised bosses on the outer diameter at a specific distance from the flange to act as a stop when pressing in the bushings. This locates the control arm in the correct position.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-07-21 21:41
You guys lost me on what you're trying to do here. The oem control arm bushings are not just rubber, they are steel inner sleeve and a steel outer sleeve with a middle core of rubber moulded in. How are you going to replace that with urathane? I guess I don't understand what you are machining or trimming..it would seem to me they either make a replacement control arm bushing designed as original except urathane, or they don't.?
Also, jfyi, The steel outer sleeve with the flange has raised bosses on the outer diameter at a specific distance from the flange to act as a stop when pressing in the bushings. This locates the control arm in the correct position.
Rich........when I made the original post, I asked for advise on what parts to use in rebuilding the front end. lalessi1 replied , suggesting that among other things, that I use urethane bushings in the lower control arms and the '58/'59 style upper control arms shafts/ bushings.
To date , I've not found anyone that has this lower control arm bushing already made up in urethane and ready to go. Thus the hunt for a source. As to the pros or cons of using a urethane bushing...........my limited experience is with my '63 Avanti. I completely redid the front suspension this past winter and installed Delrin bushings, in both the upper and lower A frames. The plus side of the story is, they will not crack and deteriorate over time..........so I'm told. I found that as a big plus as I've changed these A frame bushings a couple of times in the 43 years I've owned this car, and I hate doing it.The con side of using these is that you get a harsher feeling as the Delrin does not absorb like the original bushing, but rather, passes the road feel on. So far, I'm pleased with the Delrin. The actual Delrin bushings are the same size and have the same flanges as the original bushings for my Avanti. They are solid Delrin. No metal. A grade 8 or 10 bolt with a large washer secures it. The only noticeable difference is that each bushing has a zerk. And when installing these bushings in the A frame one must know in advance exactly where you want that zerk, so you can get a grease gun on it later. I marked my A frames before I took them to have the bushings pressed in.
Rich, did that answer your question............I hope so.
Well, sort of...
I guess you're saying you're going to put in bushings that have no metal sleeves? I'm not sure how that'll work.... May be fine, but just a gut feeling would make me be hesitant about it. Does Lynn have a source for these bushings he recommended using? I realize the advantages of delrin over rubber...just not sure about the delrin over rubber encased in steel. I'm also aware that the quality of rubber nowadays with cheap sourcing is probably not as good as the stuff that was put on our cars 50+ years ago, and for most cars stood up for many many years.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-07-22 07:34
Well, sort of...
I guess you're saying you're going to put in bushings that have no metal sleeves? I'm not sure how that'll work.... May be fine, but just a gut feeling would make me be hesitant about it. Does Lynn have a source for these bushings he recommended using? I realize the advantages of delrin over rubber...just not sure about the delrin over rubber encased in steel. I'm also aware that the quality of rubber nowadays with cheap sourcing is probably not as good as the stuff that was put on our cars 50+ years ago, and for most cars stood up for many many years.
Rich, you are correct........bushings without metal sleeves.
As to Lynn having a source , yes he gave me a name, and I've been in contact with them. They do not have an exact fit replacement. To get something I can cut down on a lathe, I need the dimensions of the original style bushing, so I can get close and trim it.Or I can wait till I remove the lower control arm and do the measuring.
BTW, i found a number for the Moog Tech Line 800 325 8886. They have no information for this bushing.
I'll keep searching.
John
Here is the Moog pdf with the dimensions I was referring to. I thought you had that, sorry. I have used Delrin bushings in the past to replace the rubber pressed in type before on a Datsun, they worked quite well. I haven't put them in my Ford as of yet but I am planning on doing that.
http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Rubber%20Bushings%20by%20Dimension.pdf
Also rk57Meteor has machined some he bought from Engineering Suspension Tech according to his post in the older thread I referred you to earlier.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-07-23 15:49
Here is the Moog pdf with the dimensions I was referring to. I thought you had that, sorry. I have used Delrin bushings in the past to replace the rubber pressed in type before on a Datsun, they worked quite well. I haven't put them in my Ford as of yet but I am planning on doing that.
http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Rubber%20Bushings%20by%20Dimension.pdf
Also rk57Meteor has machined some he bought from Engineering Suspension Tech according to his post in the older thread I referred you to earlier.
Well you did give me that site and I looked it up , but I was looking only at the Moog Part Numbers and not the Kit Numbers. Now I see it.
When I ordered the body to frame kit from Concourse, I ordered one lower control arm bushing. With the actual bushing in hand and the dimensions from that chart I should be able to get something I can cut down to fit. I'll go back and find the reference to rk57Meteor.
Thanks
Lynn
Don't know if anyone makes those bushings in urethane.
Have heard of hard core guys burning out the rubber and replacing it with urethane.
Never cared for urethane control arm bushings myself, it is ok in sway bars but,
makes a car ride like the Deadwood stage on the street.
You will hear and feel everything through the steering especially on cars w/o a rag joint.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-06-29 19:19
John, you are a brave man for asking this question... everybody has an opinion and you will hear a lot of em. Here is mine... stock springs in the front (since you have dropped spindles), station wagon (stock) springs in the rear. Front sway bar from Quickor Garage... it mounts like a 1959 stock bar and will not give you wheel/tire clearance issues. Rear bar from Concours Parts, it mounts above the axle. Front shocks...Bilstein, expensive but worth the money. Rear shocks...I have Gabriel Highjackers air shocks for adjusting the rake. I would use urethane bushings for the lower control arms and '58/'59 bushings for the uppers. Borgeson Power steering... (I think it is a better match for the suspension geometry than rack and pinion). Ball joints...dunno just make sure they are domestic. I might consider narrowing the rear end 1 1/2" inch for tire clearance.
In my opinion these mods will greatly improve the original performance and function without re-engineering the whole suspension. If money were no object I would buy a new custom frame from Fatman or Art Morrison. Good luck with sorting out all the advice I am sure you will get.
Les, a couple of questions about the Sway bars you recommended.
Spoke with Glen, at Quickor Garage. He makes the sway bar in a 7/8 or 1 inch diameter. He is up front in saying that the bushings for the 1 inch bar are very thin. Thin like 1/8 inch thick on the "sides walls". So which size did you use? and if it was the 1 inch, any issues with the thinner bushings?
When you say the Quickor bar....."it mounts like a '59 stock bar"......what is the difference in the way a "57 sway bar mounts vs. a stock '59 bar, as I have no clue as to the difference?
Lastly, what are the issues, if you or anyone else on the Forum knows, with the front Sway bar from Concours Parts? From what you said about there being no wheel / tire clearance issues with the Quickor Garage front bar, I read between the lines that there are wheel/ tire clearance issues with the Concours Parts front bar. Is that correct, or is it some thing else?
Thanks
John
John...read the thread on oem wheel widths...some confirming info there relating to the sway bar clearance. My opinion..some minor issues that don't overweigh the advantages of the Concourse bar (or Quickor).
Rich
John, I bought the 1" Quickor bar. The stock '57 bar attaches to the car at the lower control arms only, it is not bolted to the frame at all. I don't believe it functions very well as an anti roll bar the way it is designed. The Concours bar and the Quickor bar both bolt to the frame and both connect to the the same spot on the lower control arm using a typical sway bar link/bushings. The Concours bar bolts to brackets that come with the kit that bolt to the bumper brackets. The bar runs outside the frame rails back to the control arms. At full lock, wheel back spacing is limited to around 3.75" as I understand it. This may vary from bar to bar. Also since rack and pinion steering reduces the turning radius this may be a moot point if you plan on using R&P. The Quickor bar mounts directly to the frame using stock brackets which must be purchased separately. It passes between the frame and the lower control arm in the stock '59 (and later) location. Wheel tire clearance is not an issue. I have not mounted mine as yet, I am swapping out my engine now and will install it once the engine is out of the car. I think the Quickor bar offers more roll resistance, more ground clearance and more wheel/tire options. It is more difficult to install but that should not be an issue on a "frame off" job.
Sounds to me like if one is doing a suspension rebuild, the Quickor would be the way to go. Not sure if the additional work to install one if suspension is not being disassembled otherwise is worth the effort over the Concourse/Southwest t-Bird bar.
One question I would have, however...has anyone here actually been able to test the Quickor bar, other than on paper?
On the front wheel backspacing.....Anybody see any issues with using 1/2" spacers to get the necessary clearance? I'm considering that option with the 4.25 backspacing on the 7" rim I just got. The wheel spacers are readily available in many thicknesses to resolve this apparently common issue. My studs will have to be replaced for longer ones as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Concours bar. I had already purchased wheels and tires, 7" x !5", 4.25" B.S. I don't like wheel spacers, my preference is to stay as close to stock offset (particularly in the the front for proper geometry) with the widest wheel and tire that fit under the car. I also like the same wheel/tire size front and back. After looking carefully at what I have I believe 8" x 15", 4.50" B.S. would work, front and back. If I win the lotto..... On the Quickor bar the bushing is thin, the issue is the stock ('59) mounting bracket which can ditched for a newer aftermarket bracket. I will post pics and results when I get to the bar installation.
I have a PST sway bar and like it. Fits in the stock location and came with poly bushings. I don't auto cross but corners as flat as the tires will take.
http://www.p-s-t.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3509/.f?sc=12
One might want to take a look at their ball joints. Probably not US made but life time guarantee and priced right.
Not the best pictures of the PST sway bar...all I could find.
When you get your frame cleaned up you will see that the welds look like they were done by a Hi School freshman in his first day of class. If I were building a modified car I would grind and reweld the entire frame. But if your staying pure stock your stuck with it, just hope it stays together. Tom
Quote from: thomasso on 2015-10-25 00:01
When you get your frame cleaned up you will see that the welds look like they were done by a Hi School freshman in his first day of class. If I were building a modified car I would grind and reweld the entire frame. But if your staying pure stock your stuck with it, just hope it stays together. Tom
Tom, this sounds like the voice of experience speaking.What did you find on your frame when it was cleaned up and bare?
Thanks
John
I haven't had tne frame off of my car but every weld I can see is almost beyond belief in terms of the dismal quality. Apparantly the frame was designed to not require quality welding, nothing has ever come apart!
Not very pretty welds for sure, but I seriously doubt one has ever come apart..ever.
I think the welds varied greatly depending on who did them. I've seen really crappy ones where the engine cross member attaches on some cars, my current Ranchero has really nice ones. I don't know if all the frames were all produced at one location? The welds on the two frame halves aren't continuous the full length and I have read thats the way they were intended so if a weld in one area cracked it wouldn't travel beyond that section.
That frame welds sure are a very interesting point. a lot of the welds look rightously dangerous and I have had broken welds on my frame too, but the Ford interlock system ties all the parts in neatly and it will hold up. I am another one, slightly modifying his 57 and I confess, that I am thinking about grinding down all the bad welds and spatters and reweld them in some areas. what is everybody else's thinking about that?
I found a lot of weld 'drag' marks on the frame parts, where no welding was done at all. to me it looks as if these were stick welded and the spark dragged from one weld to the next, without ever stopping. those weld surfaces look horrible in places. as if there were no shielding gas or protecting slag on them. Does anybody know or even have pics of how they were built in the factories?
I imagine there must have been a lot of less educated workers in the factory to build that many reasonably priced cars in short time period. I reckon most of them weren't educated welders or blacksmiths. I think these frames would be in a jig and be welded in a very very short time. guessing a person could weld 10 or more of these frames a day, the way they did them. any confirmation of how and why it was done that way would be highly appreciated.
The worst welding on mine was the rear shock absorber crossmember, this was re-welded after the frame was blasted. The rest was very hit & miss but seeing as it hadn't fell apart over the last 50+ years I decided it would hold up for a few more!
Quote from: thomasso on 2015-10-25 00:01
When you get your frame cleaned up you will see that the welds look like they were done by a Hi School freshman in his first day of class. If I were building a modified car I would grind and reweld the entire frame. But if your staying pure stock your stuck with it, just hope it stays together. Tom
Tom, oh, were you dead on with your description of the welding. Yes it will be ground down and re-welded........all of it. The good news is that I had it sand blasted yesterday and there are no rust pits on this frame. None.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-08-06 07:15
John, I bought the 1" Quickor bar. The stock '57 bar attaches to the car at the lower control arms only, it is not bolted to the frame at all. I don't believe it functions very well as an anti roll bar the way it is designed. The Concours bar and the Quickor bar both bolt to the frame and both connect to the the same spot on the lower control arm using a typical sway bar link/bushings. The Concours bar bolts to brackets that come with the kit that bolt to the bumper brackets. The bar runs outside the frame rails back to the control arms. At full lock, wheel back spacing is limited to around 3.75" as I understand it. This may vary from bar to bar. Also since rack and pinion steering reduces the turning radius this may be a moot point if you plan on using R&P. The Quickor bar mounts directly to the frame using stock brackets which must be purchased separately. It passes between the frame and the lower control arm in the stock '59 (and later) location. Wheel tire clearance is not an issue. I have not mounted mine as yet, I am swapping out my engine now and will install it once the engine is out of the car. I think the Quickor bar offers more roll resistance, more ground clearance and more wheel/tire options. It is more difficult to install but that should not be an issue on a "frame off" job.
Lynn
Your description of the installation of the Quickor Front Sway bar, makes me think that since I'm starting from a bare frame, that if I obtained a pair of '59 Lower Control Arms, it would make the Quickor Front Sway Bar installation much easier. To my knowledge, the lower control arm bushings are the same for '57-'59. So there is no problem with the bushings and the '59 control arm. The ball joints I've bought are the Moogs discussed here on the Forum, that will work with a little trimming and slotting of the mounting holes. Am I overlooking something? I readily admit, that I do not know the differences between the '57 and the '59 lower control arms, but I'm led to believe that they are interchangeable. If in fact they are, would that swap make the installation of the Quickor Front Bar less painful?
Please tell me what you think.
Thanks
John
It is funny you brought the lower control arms up. I have been doing "research" on the same subject. My thought was perhaps the 59 lower control arms were different. I looked in the "1949-1959 Ford Passenger Car Parts Manuals" that was published originally in 1964. The book gives a single part number that supercedes all others for 57-59 lower control arms (C1AZ 3078-B & C1AZ 3079-A; right and left). Interesting enough this is a 1961 part number and the original part was superceded in 7/61. That tells me that there would be nothing to gain by getting a pair of 59 lower control arms since apparantly they are the same. I am collecting parts to completely rebuild my front end now so I really won't know how the bar clearances will work out for a while. Looking at the bar and how it pivots it looks like the clearance from the bar to the lower control arms will increase as the car gets to ride height, bear in mind, I positioned the bar with no engine in the car. I plan on replacing the lower control arm bushings and positioning the bar without the springs, control arms on the car. If I knew someone with a '59 I would try to get a measurement on the bar-to-frame clamp location.
I did buy '59 upper control arms, they use a Hex shaped bushing that is essentially metal on metal. I really don't care for the rubber bushings and I am looking at using custom polyurethane for the lower control arms. I may buy lower control arms to facilitate that process...if I do I will try to find 59-61 ones.... How is that for confusing?
Thomasso here; My car is An E Code Sunliner so I couldn't change anything. Sure wanted to reweld the upper rear shock brackets but didn't. They are prone to breaking off because of poor welding. I have a Technical Service Bulletin from the era that talks about dealer rewelding. A couple of aftermarket mfgs. made repairs parts for them. I have a pair of u-bolt type if anyone needs some. Tom
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-10-27 18:36
It is funny you brought the lower control arms up. I have been doing "research" on the same subject. My thought was perhaps the 59 lower control arms were different. I looked in the "1949-1959 Ford Passenger Car Parts Manuals" that was published originally in 1964. The book gives a single part number that supercedes all others for 57-59 lower control arms (C1AZ 3078-B & C1AZ 3079-A; right and left). Interesting enough this is a 1961 part number and the original part was superceded in 7/61. That tells me that there would be nothing to gain by getting a pair of 59 lower control arms since apparently they are the same. I am collecting parts to completely rebuild my front end now so I really won't know how the bar clearances will work out for a while. Looking at the bar and how it pivots it looks like the clearance from the bar to the lower control arms will increase as the car gets to ride height, bear in mind, I positioned the bar with no engine in the car. I plan on replacing the lower control arm bushings and positioning the bar without the springs, control arms on the car. If I knew someone with a '59 I would try to get a measurement on the bar-to-frame clamp location.
I did buy '59 upper control arms, they use a Hex shaped bushing that is essentially metal on metal. I really don't care for the rubber bushings and I am looking at using custom polyurethane for the lower control arms. I may buy lower control arms to facilitate that process...if I do I will try to find 59-61 ones.... How is that for confusing?
Lynn.........thanks for the information. I bought a pair of '58-'59 upper control arms as well, for the same reason. If the weather holds this weekend, I'm going to an old junk yard that has several, '58's and '59's, so I might be able to get a look at the lower control arms and see first hand how the '59 front sway bar mounts. I'm grinding and welding on the frame presently, so I'm still a little ways away from beginning reassembly. I also thought about installing or positioning the sway bar with out the coils installed. I've got the frame on a rotisserie, so working on both sides of the frame / control arms will be easier...........I think. I'll put off buying a front sway bar until it is time to install it. Perhaps you'll have yours buttoned up by then and can walk me through it.
Thanks
John
If you get a chance to check out a '59, pics and measurements please....
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2015-10-28 07:51
If you get a chance to check out a '59, pics and measurements please....
Lynn..........exactly what do you want photos of and what measurements do you want.........assuming I can get under one of these cars Saturday.
John
Somewhere I'm missing the point of looking for 59's, they should be just like the 57? The only difference may be the style of rubber bump stops, don't know what the 59 used, even some 57's used two different ones from what I have seen.
Quote from: KYBlueOval on 2015-10-29 04:23
Lynn..........exactly what do you want photos of and what measurements do you want.........assuming I can get under one of these cars Saturday.
John
What I would like to know is the location of the brackets on the frame that hold the swaybar, a measurement from the front edge along the frame to the bolt holes would be perfect and a photo of where it is relative to the center of the frame. Don't forget you will need the brackets for the Quickor bar if you go that route. If the price is reasonable I would buy the stock bar for comparison purposes as well.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-10-29 07:22
Somewhere I'm missing the point of looking for 59's, they should be just like the 57? The only difference may be the style of rubber bump stops, don't know what the 59 used, even some 57's used two different ones from what I have seen.
If you are talking about the lower control arms, there is some confusion....they will interchange but there are differences especially with regards to steering stop and sway bar attachment points. This wrecking yard is selling A-arms on eBay with a big caveat on fitment..."NOTE: Hollander interchange shows the above listed vehicles as using the same control arm; HOWEVER, we have found that there are at least three variations relating to the steering stop (some have and some do not have) and the mounting hardware for the sway bar." I also think the ball joint holes vary.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-1958-1959-1960-1961-1962-FORD-LOWER-CONTROL-A-ARM-Right-FRONT-/331317216237?fits=Year%3A1959%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item4d240b83ed:m:mqm4eNJfBDun2mAks7VNMLg&vxp=mtr
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2015-10-29 07:22
Somewhere I'm missing the point of looking for 59's, they should be just like the 57? The only difference may be the style of rubber bump stops, don't know what the 59 used, even some 57's used two different ones from what I have seen.
I'm lost right along with you, Jim. I guess it's the same, but different? Maybe just the mounting area/hardware for the sway bar is different.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-10-29 10:10
I'm lost right along with you, Jim. I guess it's the same, but different? Maybe just the mounting area/hardware for the sway bar is different.
I was thinking the same about the sway bar if you were using the original. One A arm on mine wasn't a 57, it had been replaced sometime in the past but I don't know what year it was from but the difference was minor, I think it had the steering stop. I replaced it with a 57 and I don't know if it's still in my junk pile or I scrapped it, if I find it I will check it out closer.
Mine are original, and have one steering stop on the driver's side.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2015-10-29 11:00
Mine are original, and have one steering stop on the driver's side.
I didn't use either one that came on my car, I had two originals from years ago that I rebuilt and it didn't have the stop, I've heard that some did and some didn't. Maybe they were added at a later production date?
What I was thinking was perhaps the contours were a little different on '59s' and later to give more clearance for the later frame mounted swaybars as opposed to the '57s' A-arm mounted one. Don't fret though, this is all clear as mud in my head. I really have concluded that any of these A-arms can be made to work with the frame mounted swaybar. Just wish I could actually look at a '59 with the bar on it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=1959+ford+sway+bars&biw=1280&bih=929&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEIQsARqFQoTCNfehu326MgCFcdIJgodj5wAEA#tbm=isch&q=1959+ford+sway+bar+picture&imgrc=G2-Clegjp3nXoM%3A
I've used '59 lower control arms on a '57 frame. Stops might have been different but used the same ball joint. OEM and PST '57 sway bar fit fine.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2015-10-29 19:29
https://www.google.com/search?q=1959+ford+sway+bars&biw=1280&bih=929&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEIQsARqFQoTCNfehu326MgCFcdIJgodj5wAEA#tbm=isch&q=1959+ford+sway+bar+picture&imgrc=G2-Clegjp3nXoM%3A
I've used '59 lower control arms on a '57 frame. Stops might have been different but used the same ball joint. OEM and PST '57 sway bar fit fine.
Thanks for that Link. I now see the difference in the way a '59 sway bar mounts.
The Quickor Front Sway that Lynn is going to use mounts the same way as the 59. Either that one or the SWT/Concourse bar will work with the 57 arms. I don't think there is any advantage to using the 59..