new to this forum.would like to know if anyone has put a 4.6 dohc out of a 95 mark viii in a 57 ranchero.thanks
Awhile back a guy was doing that swap along with the front suspension and stuff, don't know how it turned out. I checked on wiring harness availabilty a year or so ago, they didn't offer one at that time. Mark
i used to work for ford fixing fuel injection.so wiring,fuel system will not be a issue.i was more looking for information on motor mounts and what exhaust manifolds may work.thanks
The engine is slightly wider than an FE, just a half inch wider than the 460. Problem could come up as that width is lower in the engine compartment. Just have to try it.
I will be putting a Mod motor in my Ranchero, about a year away from now, and will know exactly what has to be done. I will try to take many pics along the way to document the install.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2009-01-28 23:32
i used to work for ford fixing fuel injection.so wiring,fuel system will not be a issue.i was more looking for information on motor mounts and what exhaust manifolds may work.
I have a friend doing one but he used an early LINC CONT (83) front clip (don't ask). The DOHC sat down on the CONT pads and he used later MUST DOHC factory shorties. Fits like a glove.
found a 1995 continental in a pick your part yard.has a 4.6 dohc,but is front wheel drive.it has a front sump oil pan and a smaller left hand exhaust manifold.just wanted to pass this info on.
As reported in various places on the web, The 4.6 rear sump pan hits the tubular crossmember. You need the pan mentioned in the above post by Canadian Ranchero. It is a front sump factory pan that will make the swap easier. You also the matching oil pick-up.
Its a tight fit,you'll have interference problems with both the steering and upper a-arms. I have one just mocked up in my car looks killer but am rethinking project and thick either a 302 or 429 might be easier. Do a search for Gearheads out of the Dakotas they have the swap pretty well thought out.
there is a pan and pickup in the for sale forum :unitedstates:
you can use 1996 mustang motor mounts have to slot original pad a little bit. also you can use cobra shorty headers tight fit but clears. :burnout:
cruzin71,does the car you are talking about use the stock steering box?
:001:
using a ABS567 power box tight but clears the head.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2009-11-10 21:03
you can use 1996 mustang motor mounts have to slot original pad a little bit. also you can use cobra shorty headers tight fit but clears. :burnout:
What brand of Headers did you use, as it appears that the RH would work, but the LH takes up much more space.
4.6 litre d.o.h.c./4R70W swap updates? I'm still hoping someone who has actually done this swap has some updated info for us. Seems like there's a few of us who would like as much info as posible. The only thing I know that I haven't seen on this website is that Ron Francis wiring now has an engine control harness specifically for the dohc from the mark Viii's. Ron francis also has available ford wiring connectors for those of us using later model ford steering columns (I'm using a '97 MUSTANG)I ran into a guy who has a shop in Kansas City specializing in these conversions. He had a 57 Bird at the colorado Goodguys show last year with a 4.6 dohc from an explorer. He also does engine control systems..I think he said around $850....which is about 1/2 of the Ron Francis setup.I have his contact info somewhere in my archives if anybody is interested. This is the second time i've seen the dohc in a 57 bird, It seems to me we must have alot more room to work with.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-02-28 21:46
4.6 litre d.o.h.c./4R70W swap updates? I'm still hoping someone who has actually done this swap has some updated info for us. Seems like there's a few of us who would like as much info as posible. The only thing I know that I haven't seen on this website is that Ron Francis wiring now has an engine control harness specifically for the dohc from the mark Viii's. Ron francis also has available ford wiring connectors for those of us using later model ford steering columns (I'm using a '97 MUSTANG)I ran into a guy who has a shop in Kansas City specializing in these conversions. He had a 57 Bird at the colorado Goodguys show last year with a 4.6 dohc from an explorer. He also does engine control systems..I think he said around $850....which is about 1/2 of the Ron Francis setup.I have his contact info somewhere in my archives if anybody is interested. This is the second time i've seen the dohc in a 57 bird, It seems to me we must have alot more room to work with.
I am in the process of doing this swap i.e. a 96 MK VIII DOHC with matching 4R70W into a 57 Squire Wagon (currently sporting a 428/C6). I have very professional help in the process or should I say the professional has my help.
To answer a few specific questions above...
1. Ron Francis aka Telorvek aka DetailZone http://www.thedetailzone.com/ seems to have the right stuff when it comes to wiring harnesses. Don't even think you can use the OEM harness unless you designed the harness while working at Lincoln. About the guy with the $850 Harness above... $850 is not half of $900 that DetailZone charges.
2. "...a lot of room to work with." Maybe not so much. I don't have the 4.6 installed yet but I can tell you the critical fitment problem is between the upper A-Arm perches (picture attached) and possibly the left exhaust vs. the steering box (I'm using a 58 box which has more clearance than the 57). You will not be able to use the stock Lincoln exhaust man., there is no way it will fit the left side. The only thing I can see that will fit is either the DOHC Cobra cast iron or the tubular version of it (Pictured). If you are thinking about shorties or something else; better get the engine installed before you invest. You are also going to need to fab motor mounts that allow the engine to sit low enough so the exhaust runs under the upper A-Arm perch. More on this as I progress. The DOHC's heads will fit in the gap between the MC and the heater fan housing IF YOU HAVE the under dash booster. Under hood booster, not so much.
3. Earlier in these threads someone asked about the rear-sump oil pan... You'll be yanking that off straight away. Start prowling the parts yards for a 95 - 02 Continental with the FWD DOHC. The engine is worthless as it cannot be fit to a RWD trans bit it has a front-sump oil pan. Grab that, the pickup tube, the dip-stick and tube. The 4.6 (of any variety) will not fit the 57 with out it. It is surprisingly easy to get it off. WHAT IS UNCLEAR at this point is how the dipstick is going to work in this conversion. In the Conti, the block boss is forward of the motor mount; with the MK VIII it is aft. I'll have to let you know what we work out.
So, moving along...
If you select a '96 or earlier Lincoln you won't have to deal with PATS and can at least get the thing running w/o having to reprogram the ECU (most guys want $4-500 on top of the harness price). If you select the '96 (as I did) you need to be aware that the VLCM and the IMRC's are unique to that year, are not made by Ford and are not reproduced by anyone; so start looking for spares of those items (and good luck with that). The 97 & 98 motors are nicer with COP design but again, you'll have to deal with PATS and figure out how to deal with the electronic throttle control (that thing that has Toyota all farked up).
Lokar has a shifter conversion for the 4R70W that works with column shifters; you need it.
You can use a conventional fan & Clutch vs. the electric fan. If you want the electric, the MK VIII is so superior that many Cobra owners are scrounging them up.
There are aftermarket cross members available for the trans but you should be able to weld something up much cheaper. You will need a shorter drive shaft.
This engine has pretty odd plumbing for the cooling system. Something will have to be modded no doubt.
Expect to hear from me from time to time with pictures of the progress. At this point we just have the engine on a stand getting ready to bolt on the necessary stuff.
Bob
look at my other post,will answer some of you questions.
If you Mustang the front suspension works great I did a 57 Ranch wagon with a 302FE still working on her plan to pull out and go drag racing
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-23 14:17
look at my other post,will answer some of you questions.
Actually, my burning question at present is...
What did you do about the dipstick? With the front sump pan on there the stick does not go into the sump.
i am in the process of dealing with the dipstick issue.will post what i find out
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-25 13:45
i am in the process of dealing with the dipstick issue.will post what i find out
Super. I appreciate the help.
BTW...
Kar Kraft Engineering Incorporated (www.karkraft.com) supposedly had this figured out (...I assume, since they were selling a pan and dipstick kit for an outrageous $250). Alas, they have disappeared.
On a related matter... I was at the Fabulous Fords Forever Show at Knott's Berry Farm over the weekend and saw 2 Torinos with the DOHC conversion. I asked the guy if he had the front sump pan... "no, we welded on a 90's TBird front clip so the rear sump unit works". When I mentioned I was doing this conversion on a 57 and it would require a front sump he oopined that "it's just easier to weld on a new front clip".
Sometimes it pays to just shut up.
torinos are unibody are fairly flat on the frame bottom were the front suspension goes on.57 fords are not and would require a lot of fabrication to make it fit.i looked into doing this and found the easiest would be a crown vic frame graft.witch would be a lot of work.so far the swap into stock chassis looks the best.
I agree. There are no insurmountable issues swapping into the 57 frame. Never liked "clips" and don't do them. Everything you have done to this point is hand tools and just requires scrounging the parts. Fabrication tools and skills would make it even easier moving some of the obsticles you have run accross. Keep us updated as you go please.....
I wouldn't stress to much on the dipstick issue, If you could locate your oil level with the stock parts, then fab a tube and stick into your chosen pan at that level. An hour or two on the engine stand and you will have it solved. Mark
thanks for the support.i am trying to keep this as low buck as i can.i have the dip stick that came with the front sump pan.i was thinking of drilling a hole in the block at the correct angle and with a little epoxy put it in the stock front sump pan location
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-26 21:45
thanks for the support.i am trying to keep this as low buck as i can.i have the dip stick that came with the front sump pan.i was thinking of drilling a hole in the block at the correct angle and with a little epoxy put it in the stock front sump pan location
I was thinking more along the lines of threading the drilled hole and inserting a brass bushing to insert the tube into. The block is a bit thin in that area and I'm really REALLY tired of random oil leaks. Even this extent is way easier than welding on a clip.
Do you have any pictures of the motor mount setup? I know you used a 96 4.6 MStang but I'd like to see how it looks if you have one.
here are some mount pictures the pass side is on the engine.the other ones are drivers side.they are off a 02 mustang gt 2cam
Canadian: Just my ignorance since I've never done an engine swap, but I know when instaling a carbureted engine, you have to be careful with the levelness of the intake manifold...I am guessing it is not as critical an issue with fuel injection? I'm going to the Pate swap meet this weekend and am going to try and find the exhaust headers. Do you know if other year cobras are identical to the 2001's that you used? I know other years were mentioned elsewhere,but don't know if they are as workable as the 01's you used. This has been a great article, and very popular...I noticed views are up over 1400 already! thanks again! One last question...what's your name?
that is correct they are not as fussy as a carb.i try to keep the side to side level.front to back can be a few degrees off but not too much or you can have oiling issues.looked in my interchange manual,hollander says 99 and 01 cobra manifolds are the same
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-27 19:20
here are some mount pictures the pass side is on the engine.the other ones are drivers side.they are off a 02 mustang gt 2cam
Thank you my friend. Very helpful. When these are bolted to the engine are the frame mount studs at the correct, or at least a close angle with respect to the frame perches?
some more mount pictures.left one fits good,right one good after you tighten the mount to frame bolt
Great pics thanks... Another question...Is the stock lincoln 4R70W floor shifter a tranny mount or a floor mount. When I designed that console for my car I had pretty much thought I was going to install an aod with the 4.6 to make the electronics simpler. I purchased a floor mount b&m for aod/c-4/c-6 cable shifter that could be floor mounted anywhere. I have since decided that better is better, so I'm going to go with the 4R70W. My delema now is trying to figure out how to make my console work without a major remake since I've got a lot of work into it, so I'm hoping the stock Lincoln is cable floor mounted so I can just use that if I have to, with mods to the cable lengths. But I'll guess my life won't be that simple.
yes the 93 markviii shifter is floor mount with a cable.here is a picture from a 93 shop manual.the other reason to use the stock shifter is you get the overdrive cancel switch
Man, I have a question before I go to bed at night and an answer when I wake up in the morning...doesn't get any better than that. Looks like an easy adapt to my usage. Was that page out of the 93 lincoln shop manual? I couldn't read it, but looks like it had adjustment info on it. Thanks again...Rich
yes out of the 93 mark viii shop manual
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-29 00:38
yes the 93 markviii shifter is floor mount with a cable.here is a picture from a 93 shop manual.the other reason to use the stock shifter is you get the overdrive cancel switch
Lokar has a shifter conversion unit that allows for the use of the column shifter which is what I'll be using. I have the OEM shifter but don't want it in the way.I'll just stick a button somewhere for the OD. As I understand it the OD is automatic and the button simply turns it off and alternately, back on.
like i said i found a 97 f150 cable.i just need to modify the brackets and will have less than $15 in it.will work with a column shift
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-29 13:59
like i said i found a 97 f150 cable.i just need to modify the brackets and will have less than $15 in it.will work with a column shift
Oh yeah, that's right. I did see that in some of your pictures. I saw the bracket c-clamped to the frame. Did that come out of the f150 as well?
What did you decide to do with the OD switch?
I don't know about anyone else, but this thread has been the most informative thread I have read in years! Thanks to everyone for contributing!
the shift cable brackets are off the same truck.you need to remember that this is my test fit chassis so some items are not fully installed. as for the OD switch, i found a dash mounted one in a late 80's ford truck with the e4od trans that i think i can modify to work
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-04-25 13:45
i am in the process of dealing with the dipstick issue.will post what i find out
Over the past weekend We got the 4.6 on the stand and started to work. We may have solved the dipstick issue in the process...
With the pan off we observed that the stock dipstick only hangs down about 1.5 inches from the pan surface. We discovered that grinding the tip down so that the bullet point begins at the "Fill" line it just clears hitting the bottom of the shallow end of the front sump pan. So, problem solved. SHave the end of the dipstick about 1/4 inch and you're good to go (at least with the '96 setup).
New question...
The 96 4R70W uses a digital speed sensor for the Lincoln speedometer. In our 57's it's a different story of course. Has anyone done/know of an adapter for this trans to drive a mechanical speedo?
i am looking into this problem all so.found a 85 lincoln AOD one that maybe will work.will keep you posted
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-03 18:26
i am looking into this problem all so.found a 85 lincoln AOD one that maybe will work.will keep you posted
We'll be digging into the 4R70 this weekend so maybe I'll discover something as well.
I ordered one of these babies so we can get the shifter going http://foxyurl.com/SwV (http://foxyurl.com/SwV)
Hi,
The speedometer problem is easily taken care with an a older style bullet that runs the speed pickup as well as a cable. the bullet has a gear that runs on the output shaft of the transmission.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-03 22:06
Hi,
The speedometer problem is easily taken care with an a older style bullet that runs the speed pickup as well as a cable. the bullet has a gear that runs on the output shaft of the transmission.
Wonderful, and thanks for the picture. Wer'd ya get that bullet?
looks the same as the 85 lincoln one i was looking at
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-04 14:33
looks the same as the 85 lincoln one i was looking at
Well, back to the parts yard I guess.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-03 22:06
Hi,
The speedometer problem is easily taken care with an a older style bullet that runs the speed pickup as well as a cable. the bullet has a gear that runs on the output shaft of the transmission.
Let me get back to this thing a bit...
The pic doesn't show the whole thing but it looks like we have to replace the whole tail housing and output shaft from some older model to do your conversion?
i am told that ford used that hole for the speedometer on the 4r70w transmission till about 2000 in most models.i looked at a trans out of a 2wd 2001 truck and ford had just put a plug on it.take the plug off and the hole is there and so is the gear on the out put shaft
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-06 17:56
i am told that ford used that hole for the speedometer on the 4r70w transmission till about 2000...
Yes. I looked around some more on the net. Apparently there was a period of time when Ford trans' supplied digital info to the computer while having a mechanical speedo in the dash. The sender in these apps has both the digital sensor and a push-type speedo cable connection; which, it appears, Cruzin71 is using in his picture above.
looked in the standard engine management catalog at speed sensors. looks like any rear wheel drive car or truck from about 85 to mid 90's with mechanical speedometers should be what we need
Any progress on the installation? Gary, I think it would be helpful to me if I had a copy of the mark viii repair manual. Could you give me the name of the publisher and title, and what years it covers so I can start looking for one? thanks, Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-16 21:09
Any progress on the installation? Gary, I think it would be helpful to me if I had a copy of the mark viii repair manual. Could you give me the name of the publisher and title, and what years it covers so I can start looking for one? thanks, Rich
RICH waiting for a trans mount to make sure that fits good.working on disc brakes{see post under brakes}i think you said your mark was a 93,i would look for a factory shop manual.got mine on ebay
For those interested, pictures of my progress are posted here: http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/ (http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/)
More will arrive as things move forward.
Rc2
Quote from: rclaborne on 2010-05-18 12:16
For those interested, pictures of my progress are posted here: http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/ (http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/)
More will arrive as things move forward.
Rc2
do the headers fit?look to big to me
got a NOS 57 auto trans mount.did a test fit,will need to extend the crossmember trans mount back about 1 inch.will still clear the e brake arm.will also need to open up the bolt holes in the bracket that bolts the mount to the trans
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-18 13:06
do the headers fit?look to big to me
We'll soon see. You may see them up on eBay if not.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-18 17:01
got a NOS 57 auto trans mount.did a test fit,will need to extend the crossmember trans mount back about 1 inch.will still clear the e brake arm.will also need to open up the bolt holes in the bracket that bolts the mount to the trans
My OE cross member is long gone courtesy of its current 428/C6 setup. No problem for me to rejigger the operation.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-03 22:06
Hi,
The speedometer problem is easily taken care with an a older style bullet that runs the speed pickup as well as a cable. the bullet has a gear that runs on the output shaft of the transmission.
Cruzin'71 ...do you have this set up in a '57? with a 4.6?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-18 17:23
Cruzin'71 ...do you have this set up in a '57? with a 4.6?
While you're waiting I will tell you that I pulled a sending unit out of a 90 Ford Ranger which converts the 4R70W nicely to a mechanical speedo in the '57 as well as the digital sender. $5.00 at the local yard. Just about any ford from late 80's to late 90's will have this sender.
That said, I may convert my 57 speedo, fuel and temp to digital using the internal guts from my 96 Lincoln. I'll post results later.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-18 17:23
Cruzin'71 ...do you have this set up in a '57? with a 4.6?
RICH have look at the pictures.first one shows 85 town car speedo sensor and cable in the mark viii trans.even the gear swaps.stock mark sensor on top.second picture, look close and you can see how the town car speedo cable lays.will need to change the end at the speedo head but should work.you can also see how i need to extend the trans crossmember mount back
one other thing to be aware of.my mark has a 8 tooth trans out put shaft.if you are going higher than 3.27[toward 4.11]you will need a add on speed adaptor to make the speedo read correct.the other thing you can do is swap the out put shaft to a 7 tooth one
I made the decision to use the Lokar shift arm conversion in my application. I know that C_R has successfully grafted a cable mechanism in his app but for $50 including the linkage shaft and tie ends it beats crawling under a greasy truck at the bone yard.
Here's the little devil right here: http://www.lokar.com/product-descriptions/ford-4r70w-aode.htm (http://www.lokar.com/product-descriptions/ford-4r70w-aode.htm)
I had a long discussion with them about this application. It turns out that you remove the center bolt, disc and arm; install the selector shaft, bolt on the MLPS and the disc and arm go on last on the outside of the MLPS (unlike the stock setup where it goes under).
Quote from: rclaborne on 2010-05-20 11:54
I made the decision to use the Lokar shift arm conversion in my application. I know that C_R has successfully grafted a cable mechanism in his app but for $50 including the linkage shaft and tie ends it beats crawling under a greasy truck at the bone yard.
Here's the little devil right here: http://www.lokar.com/product-descriptions/ford-4r70w-aode.htm (http://www.lokar.com/product-descriptions/ford-4r70w-aode.htm)
I had a long discussion with them about this application. It turns out that you remove the center bolt, disc and arm; install the selector shaft, bolt on the MLPS and the disc and arm go on last on the outside of the MLPS (unlike the stock setup where it goes under).
are you still planing to point the arm down?there is not alot of room under the trans tunnel.
WHILE WORKING ON MY ROCKER PANEL TONIGHT, i NOTICED THE TRANS. CROSSMEMBER IS BOLTED ON. IF YOUR BODY IS MOUNTED ON THE FRAME, WOULDN'T IT BE EASIER TO MOVE BACK THE CROSSMEMBER BY REDRILLING AND TAPING NEW HOLES THAN TO WELD AN EXTENSION ON THE CENTER BRACKET. i GUESS I ASK BECAUSE i HATE WELDING OVER MY HEAD. RICH
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-20 18:25
WHILE WORKING ON MY ROCKER PANEL TONIGHT, i NOTICED THE TRANS. CROSSMEMBER IS BOLTED ON. IF YOUR BODY IS MOUNTED ON THE FRAME, WOULDN'T IT BE EASIER TO MOVE BACK THE CROSSMEMBER BY REDRILLING AND TAPING NEW HOLES THAN TO WELD AN EXTENSION ON THE CENTER BRACKET. i GUESS I ASK BECAUSE i HATE WELDING OVER MY HEAD. RICH
RICH if you look close you will see the frame is tapered.so if you move it back you will have to widen the crossmember.as far as welding the extension on,after it is tacked in place i will remove the crossmember and weld it on the bench.
Wish I had thought of that...at least one of us is thinking...I'm such a dumbass sometimes
Hi Rich,
I have a lincoln mark VIII motor & transmission . installed in my car. The car is still a work in progress. drove car down my street and back. I am still working out minor problems. I have not hooked up the speedometer as of yet.( not a major priority at this time.) You can buy a pre made cable with speedometer gear and length of cable you need from a mustang website. I do not remember where I saw it. The other thing you can do is take your bullet and remove the plastic insert at the top and install a cable, not sure how you can attach. I will just buy from the web sight. I think it was about $60.00. you can also get the older bullet with cable attached. 1993 lincoln I believe.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-20 22:42
Hi Rich,
I have a lincoln mark VIII motor & transmission . installed in my car. The car is still a work in progress. drove car down my street and back. I am still working out minor problems. I have not hooked up the speedometer as of yet.( not a major priority at this time.) You can buy a pre made cable with speedometer gear and length of cable you need from a mustang website. I do not remember where I saw it. The other thing you can do is take your bullet and remove the plastic insert at the top and install a cable, not sure how you can attach. I will just buy from the web sight. I think it was about $60.00. you can also get the older bullet with cable attached. 1993 lincoln I believe.
cruzin71 what did you use for a rad?any pictures?
Crusin71...I think we'd all like to see a rundown on what you've got going there...what year lincoln...brake booster...radiator...wiring...exhaust manifolds..motor mounts...pics...etc. thanks Rich
the other reason to leave the trans crossmember where it is,is that you can leave the e brake system alone,one less thing to modify.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-20 12:24
are you still planing to point the arm down?there is not alot of room under the trans tunnel.
The arm cannot point up since it would actuate the shifts in the opposite direction as the column shift goes. Park is the forward most position with the lever pointing (in the stock OEM position) down.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-20 23:35
cruzin71 what did you use for a rad?any pictures?
I solved the rad issue with a custom built rad. But, if you're needing a rad on the cheap the 57 OEM rad has enough cooling power for the 4.6 What you need to do to get more front end room is to de-solder the mounting rails then resolder them in reverse. that will allow you to move the radiator forward in to the cowling recess which gives you about 3 more inches. At this point I am not sure If I will be using a mechanical fan or the Lincoln MK VIII shroud and electric fan. I'll figure this out once we get it in the engine bay.
when i test fitted my rad i had enough for the lincoln fan with room to spare.the rad is a 59 352 2 core
Rich,
1997 Lincoln mark VIII motor,trans, radiator and cooling fan.
1996 mustang gt mounts
crown Vic crossmember custom built
detail zone wiring ( made my own wire diet had running, but unable to scan).
using hydro boost from late model mustang gt.
what did you do to get the rad to fit?the lower rad mount pins were hiting the frame when i test fitted mine
Thanks for the info and pics. Which exauhst manifolds did you use, and was it the engine or tranny crossmember you custom built? I'm asking questions we already have answers for in order to hopefully expand our choices when it's time for parts yard shopping.
Rich,
I had to trim core support a little on the bottom. I am running ford motorsport headers, currently do not have exhaust system on car. The crossmember was used for the transmission. when I started project I did not have the original crossmember some I just came up with my own by measuring and diving under cars at the bone yard.
On the radiator mount I used the mounting brackets off the top of most ford cars. I drilled holes in the cor support and used the pin system on the bottom as well as the top.
HAVE YOU HAD THE FORD MOTORSPORTS HEADERS ON THE CAR? DO THEY CLEAR THE CONTROL ARMS? IF SO, DO YOU HAVE PART NUMBERS BY ANY CHANCE? Also, where is your battery located, I was thinking of recessing mine into the fenderwell area. An optima battery they advertise can be installed in any position, which to me means on it's side if you have to, and I'd always have the option of using those side post batteries that I hate.
THANKS FOR THE REPLIES...RICH
cruzin71 what steering system are you using?
used abs powersteering box. header not sure of part number will research had to trim nuts on upper control arms. installed battery on passenger side fender well welded in box.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-23 01:34
used abs powersteering box. header not sure of part number will research had to trim nuts on upper control arms. installed battery on passenger side fender well welded in box.
i assume you hooked the box to the mark viii pump.on my upper control arm nuts,i swapped them around putting the nuts toward the tires
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-21 23:25
Rich,
1997 Lincoln mark VIII motor,trans, radiator and cooling fan.
1996 mustang gt mounts
crown Vic crossmember custom built
detail zone wiring ( made my own wire diet had running, but unable to scan).
using hydro boost from late model mustang gt.
what do you mean by "detail zone wiring"?did you cut up the mark wiring harness?
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-24 08:15
what do you mean by "detail zone wiring"?did you cut up the mark wiring harness?
He means this: http://www.thedetailzone.com/Ford%204.6%20&%205.4%20EFI.htm (http://www.thedetailzone.com/Ford%204.6%20&%205.4%20EFI.htm)
Gary...The detail Zone is a division of Ron Francis Wiring that does the fuel injection harnesses.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-24 17:27
Gary...The detail Zone is a division of Ron Francis Wiring that does the fuel injection harnesses.
you guys have no sense of adventure.just modify the original wiring and save a few bucks.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-05-24 23:04
you guys have no sense of adventure.just modify the original wiring and save a few bucks.
Dude. Time is money. You can easily burn through $985 plus shipping and still not get it right; especially if you're using a 97 or 98 doner which has it's own special problems. In my case I'm going for a) reliability in a daily driver, b) minimizing frustration and c) getting this done in my natural lifetime, so it's money well spent.
Like I said I had the car running with a wiring loom dieted but that was it. toooooooooooooo many hours involved. With detail zone still take s a lot of time and planning. where to route wires. connections very easy. detail zone still not prefect for 97 /98 Lincoln. to much network involved in the Lincoln. you will still have to run a different wiring harness for electric fan as the detail zone harness will not run the fan. they found that the vrm control will not work correctly. Ron Francis has a harness for the cooling fans that work well.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-22 13:08
HAVE YOU HAD THE FORD MOTORSPORTS HEADERS ON THE CAR? DO THEY CLEAR THE CONTROL ARMS? IF SO, DO YOU HAVE PART NUMBERS BY ANY CHANCE?
THANKS FOR THE REPLIES...RICH
The headers I am using (see pics links above) are these same ones for sale on eBay right now... http://foxyurl.com/TWZ (http://foxyurl.com/TWZ) The thing is I have not fit the engine as yet so I am not 100% sure they are going to fit; but they are the smallest ones Ford makes. The only ones smaller are the Cobra cast iron manifolds that C_R is using.
Quote from: cruzin71 on 2010-05-25 23:15
you will still have to run a different wiring harness for electric fan as the detail zone harness will not run the fan. they found that the vrm control will not work correctly. Ron Francis has a harness for the cooling fans that work well.
They say their loom works the fan, fuel pump and AC for the '96. Detail Zone and Ron Francis are one and the same AFAIK. If the fan is an issue for you , just use a thermocouple switch; the bulb goes in where the drain petcock is. Comes with a small control so you can set the trigger temp. Available at most hotrod shops.
my ranchero has wiring issues so i was thinking of using the whole harness.under hood,lights,dash ect.
crusin71...what is vrm control that doesn't function properly, and is that only an issue with 97-98? I'm planning on using a 94.
Sorry incorrect it is called The variable load control module (VLCM) control. detail zone wiring harness will not work with this. They do sell a kit that will run the fan just fine. so far no other issues, I am waiting for some extra $$$$$$ to do the exhaust. I will have a driver at that point, then I will work out any other bugs that come about.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-05-26 22:41
crusin71...what is vrm control that doesn't function properly, and is that only an issue with 97-98? I'm planning on using a 94.
C71 is using a 97 or 98 motor. You should be fine with the 94. The DetailZone wiring should work well for you. They are very friendly; call them and discuss your situation. The VLCM controls the fan, fuel pump and AC. You can run all of these items by other means if you need to but better to use the VLCM (VRCM) so your ECU does not throw codes.
Quote from: rclaborne on 2010-05-29 12:30
C71 is using a 97 or 98 motor. You should be fine with the 94. The DetailZone wiring should work well for you. They are very friendly; call them and discuss your situation. The VLCM controls the fan, fuel pump and AC. You can run all of these items by other means if you need to but better to use the VLCM (VRCM) so your ECU does not throw codes.
VLCM controls fan on and off and speed,controls fuel pump off and on and wide open throttle fuel pump power,ac fan control and wide open throttle ac shut off
If you don't already have a front sump oil pan, there is one on eBay for $50. Forgot to check if he had the pickup tube...
http://foxyurl.com/Uiw
O.K., you guys have had 2 weeks without a post...you should be about done by now (l.o.l.)...seriously, any progress? Also I was wondering about what you guys have planned for fuel tank,pump,lines ect.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-06-12 06:45
O.K., you guys have had 2 weeks without a post...you should be about done by now (l.o.l.)...seriously, any progress? Also I was wondering about what you guys have planned for fuel tank,pump,lines ect.
Umm, Yes.
I completed work on the trans last weekend. Basically, installed the Lokar shift adapter. Pictures are here: http://bit.ly/cUtg6G (http://bit.ly/cUtg6G). A very simple operation that only took about 30 minutes (half of which time was spent waiting for the parts driver to show up with the filter and gasket. I had the trans on an engine stand making the job quite easy.
As you can see in the pics, the MLPS goes on first and the lever goes over it so that you can easily adjust the shift angle to suit your needs.
Perhaps next weekend we pull the front clip off my Squire and begin to remove the 428/C6 that's in there now.
Later
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-06-12 06:45
O.K., you guys have had 2 weeks without a post...you should be about done by now (l.o.l.)...seriously, any progress? Also I was wondering about what you guys have planned for fuel tank,pump,lines ect.
my plan for the fuel pump is to use a inline frame mount as close to the fuel line outlet at the tank as i can get.got a new pump and bracket for a 90 ford 1 ton 460 that will work.picked up a moroso fuel line return kit that puts the return line into the filler neck.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-06-15 11:22
my plan for the fuel pump is to use a inline frame mount as close to the fuel line outlet at the tank as i can get.got a new pump and bracket for a 90 ford 1 ton 460 that will work.picked up a moroso fuel line return kit that puts the return line into the filler neck.
Once we get this thing on the lift I'm going to see if we can mount the 96 MK VIII tank on the wagon and use the OEM pump.
OK. The 57 Squire is going into the shop today to begin the fitment process. First up: remove fenders and other front end parts. Next: Removing the 428/C6. Will post progress pictures as time goes on.
rclaborne, If you don't mind me asking,what are you going to do with that old worn out 428/C6? Hint-Hint_ Hint!LOL KID Here in Riverside County,Ca. What are neighbors for? :deadhorse:
congrats on the big step...imagine how much interest you wouldn't have in your project if you were dropping a 350 into a belaire! keep us posted
Quote from: KidKourier on 2010-06-28 16:03
rclaborne, If you don't mind me asking,what are you going to do with that old worn out 428/C6? Hint-Hint_ Hint!LOL KID Here in Riverside County,Ca. What are neighbors for? :deadhorse:
The 428 is spoken for. If the deal falls through I'll let you know. I'm keeping the C6 for my TBord.
Today we began fitting the engine into the Squire. New photos featuring the famous "Bill" of Bill's Auto in Orange, CA are available here... http://bit.ly/dAxV7i
At the moment we have a fit. It is very tight. we have about 1/16 clearance between the oil pan and the front crossMember and about 1/4" between the firewall and the EGR valve. The Headers as pictured earlier will fit in nicely although they will have to be bolted up after installation.
The main fitment problem is the power steering ram and components. After shortening the swingarm stud and fitting the engine as far to the rear as possible, there is still insufficient clearance between the power ram and the front of the bell housing. We could get more rearward movement if we modified the oil pan with a hammer but; our solution is to reposition the Ram/Idler Arm bracket about 3/8 of an inch forward of the stock position on the frame rail. It's a very, very tight fit.
This week I also received the wiring kit from DetailZone. Very professionally made up. The only thing we plan to do different is to split the harness with the OEM connectors. If anyone is wondering where you can get the replacement Ford Wedge pins, I can save you about 20 hours of research.
Bob
A few things I'm not following.."split the harness with the oem connectors", and what is a "ford wedge pin"?...thanks in advance for the clarification...Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-07-05 08:46
A few things I'm not following.."split the harness with the oem connectors", and what is a "ford wedge pin"?...thanks in advance for the clarification...Rich
The DetailZone harness essentially requires you to wire the engine and trans directly to the patch board. Since the ECU connector is already installed and on a very short leash these must both be mounted inside the car as the ECU can only go 180 degrees or so. Now unless you want to tear the entire engine and trans harness off on any occasion you need to pull the motor out you will be needing 2 connectors. One to the engine (where you will be using the same connector as supplied on the engine) and another for the trans. To reuse the connectors you need replacement Wedge Pins that you crimp to the wire and insert into the connector.
You can see the OEM engine harness connector dangling down in this picture...
http://bit.ly/dlxeyk
ok...thanks for the explanation...I'm with you now. The wedge pins as you called them are what I also need for my Mustang wiper motor and steering wheel connectors. You said you had a source?, and also do you have part numbers for the Lincoln connector wedge pins? Thanks again...Rich
P.S. I use to live in Fountain Valley...just a few hops from where you live.I sure miss my 3 in the morning walks around Lido Isle when I was needing to unwind.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-07-05 16:54
ok...thanks for the explanation...I'm with you now. The wedge pins as you called them are what I also need for my Mustang wiper motor and steering wheel connectors. You said you had a source?, and also do you have part numbers for the Lincoln connector wedge pins? Thanks again...Rich
P.S. I use to live in Fountain Valley...just a few hops from where you live.I sure miss my 3 in the morning walks around Lido Isle when I was needing to unwind.
Wedge Pins...
Small pin Size: .060
E7EB-14487-AA Female
E7EB-14461-BA Male
Big Pin Size" .110
D1AB-14461-AA Female
D1AB-14488-CA Male
Go here to buy...
http://tinyurl.com/27fpupk (http://tinyurl.com/27fpupk)
Except for the first number (female .060) You're on your own for that one.
Bob
Got it saved...thanks for the info...Rich
We have solved most of the major fitment problems. We used a C6 trans mount with an adapter plate and a couple of spacers to get that done. Moved the power ram/ideler arm mount forward about 3/4 inch so we have clearance between the front xmember and the bell housing. Right side forward a-arm stud had to be slightly shortened to clear the front air plug on the exhaust header. The MK VIII drive shaft fits perfectly.
Some new pictures posted... http://tinyurl.com/322vgw6 (http://tinyurl.com/322vgw6)
Car is now at the muffler shop.
Next, fuel system then wiring.
you're moving right along with this project...everything is looking great. I just was thinking with you being in california you have alot more b.s. to go thru with meeting smog requirements that many of us in other parts of the country don't have to deal with. Speaking of which I don't have a clue what's required in texas...maybe Pat Fleishman can weigh in on this. I also realized how much easier it should be with the rack and pinion set-up... I see in your pics that p.s. ram takes up alot of room.
On the wedge pins we were discussing in the previous post, how did you determine which pins you needed..did the vendor have that info?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-07-08 21:22
you're moving right along with this project...everything is looking great. I just was thinking with you being in california you have alot more b.s. to go thru with meeting smog requirements that many of us in other parts of the country don't have to deal with. Speaking of which I don't have a clue what's required in texas...maybe Pat Fleishman can weigh in on this. I also realized how much easier it should be with the rack and pinion set-up... I see in your pics that p.s. ram takes up alot of room.
On the wedge pins we were discussing in the previous post, how did you determine which pins you needed..did the vendor have that info?
In CA you don't need to smog a car that is 1973 or older providing it had all the original smog equipment (in the case of 1968-73 models). So, zero BS for a 57.
If you have $1500 to blow on the R&P setup it's sweet; otherwise you just have to reposition the idler mount a bit. It does take up a lot of room but that room is not needed for anything else. When it fits, it fits. Which wedge pins? Internet research; you have to put in the time.
Exhaust system is now installed. Pics available at link above (page 2). Tomorrow I attack the wiring. So far I know that we will install the ECU and terminal block on the passenger side on the kick panel as high up as we can get it. Since we have the front clip off, we will enter the wire bundle from the side and come through the kick panel. I'll be using one of the oval firewall grommets from the Lincoln harness.
Since the Lincoln gas tank will not fit we'll likely use an outboard fuel pump to plum the gas lines. Also we were able to scavenge the Lincoln fitting for the power steering pump and we have a line on getting the AC to work.
just a update on my 4.6 swap.everything that i could test fit in the donor chassis is done.i am now working on the engine to clean it up,swap the oil pan ect.i have a set of performance cams i am considering putting in.i have a shift kit for the trans to put in.i will wait till the snow flys to take my ranchero apart as it is a good running car with the 289/fmx and you just can not take your car apart in the cruse/show season
RC....getting AC to work? Do you have aftermarket ac unit in the car or the OEM, or are you tring to adapt the lincoln setup? Also wondering about the C-6 tranny mount... any idea what vehicle it was from? Is the original tranny crossmember in it's original position?
Canadian...Good to hear from you again Gary...Any changes to what you had planned or hoped to make work with the test fit?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-07-15 06:14
RC....getting AC to work? Do you have aftermarket ac unit in the car or the OEM, or are you tring to adapt the lincoln setup? Also wondering about the C-6 tranny mount... any idea what vehicle it was from? Is the original tranny crossmember in it's original position?
Canadian...Good to hear from you again Gary...Any changes to what you had planned or hoped to make work with the test fit?
My AC setup is an aftermarket under dash R12 unit that has been in the car for 12 years. It's basically similar to the Ford under dash unit. I had the Lincoln compressor manifold altered with std screw type fittings, bought a new condenser and dryer, will hook up to under dash unit using R134. So, yes, I'm using the Lincoln compressor.
C6 Mount was custom to begin with. There is no way a C6 is going to fit the 57 Xmember, and less way the AODE is going to fit it. Here's pic of the Xmember (but not the modification to the mount)... http://tinyurl.com/26r776b (http://tinyurl.com/26r776b)
i found a 57 polaraire under dash unit and am modifying the lincoln a/c parts to make it work
The basic wiring kit is now completed. You may recall that I chose the DetailZone kit. There are a few new pictures on the second page here... http://tinyurl.com/24bnfp2 (http://tinyurl.com/24bnfp2)
If you decide to use one of these kits whether the DetailZone or whomever, make sure that you check every single connector with it's mate on your engine and trans before you start wiring. You will save yourself a lot of grief and time lost if you do this first.
We are waiting on a fuel pump but in the mean time we turned the engine over to build some oil pressure and test compression. Should have the pump tomorrow and we can get the lines constructed and possibly fire it up this weekend.
Bob
wow...so much to digest. How much lattitude do you have in locating the "patch panel". I will have a lot of space in my center console that could be used for wiring. Doesn't the RF setup also incorporate the stock lincoln computer? Are the 4 connectors just ouside of the cowl side panel all ones you added as described in a previous post? Also, if I might make a suggestion, if you don't have your front sheetmetal installed yet, you may want to think about adding a rubber right angle hose fitting and dump tube to the cowl drain tube as it is dumping all that water just above all your wire. Thanks again for keeping us posted on your progress. Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-07-24 19:21
wow...so much to digest. How much lattitude do you have in locating the "patch panel". I will have a lot of space in my center console that could be used for wiring. Doesn't the RF setup also incorporate the stock lincoln computer? Are the 4 connectors just ouside of the cowl side panel all ones you added as described in a previous post? Also, if I might make a suggestion, if you don't have your front sheetmetal installed yet, you may want to think about adding a rubber right angle hose fitting and dump tube to the cowl drain tube as it is dumping all that water just above all your wire. Thanks again for keeping us posted on your progress. Rich
Almost every wire in the kit has enough to go all the way to the back of the car so you can put the panel anywhere it can fit. However, they only give you 28 inches of wire to the VRCM. The VRCM has fins on it for a reason, so you'll want that thing outside. Think about this... Where ever this is it's going to have a massive amount of wires coming to it. Whether you split them into two like me or more, it will be very stiff and you need to plan for a reasonable service loop. also the ECU cable is very short as well as the VRCM as I mentioned. If I had a console, I would not put it there.
Any kit has to incorporate the Ford ECU. How else would it run? You can't see mine in the picture as it is up under the dash to the right of the glove box. The panel will mount vertically to the side panel. I'll make a custom boxed kick panel for it later.
On the outside I used the OEM 42 pin engine connector and two 16 pin trans connectors. Only two open pins remain. The forth one is the VRCM connector from the kit. The two rubber cable grommets are from the Mark VIII, very handy.
I thought about the drain tube. I'll probably do that to keep water out of the grommet seals; the wiring itself can handle the weather.
Thursday at 11:30 AM we fired the engine for the first time.
Good for you rclaborne.I'm sure yours sounds sweeter than mine.Just lit mine up an hour ago and it has that dump truck sound with a low compression 460,close to 9 to 1,but less,and open headers.Not even close to being as loud as the big motor with muffs. :003:
Quote from: F570RD on 2010-07-31 13:23
Good for you rclaborne.I'm sure yours sounds sweeter than mine.Just lit mine up an hour ago and it has that dump truck sound with a low compression 460,close to 9 to 1,but less,and open headers.Not even close to being as loud as the big motor with muffs. :003:
Well, at the moment it seems it's running on only 6 cylinders. Installed new plug wires and plugs. All the plug wires are firing, so not a coil pack problem... Hmmm.
Bob
KIND OF OFF THE SUBJECT, BUT WHAT KIND OF HORSE POWER WILL THE 4.6 MAKE ? THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE GOING, BASE STOCK MOTORS? TOM
Quote from: wildhog on 2010-08-03 19:22
KIND OF OFF THE SUBJECT, BUT WHAT KIND OF HORSE POWER WILL THE 4.6 MAKE ? THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE GOING, BASE STOCK MOTORS? TOM
with a good set of dual exhaust,the mark 4.6 will make about 300 net horse power.that is about 400 gross horse power,if you rate the horse power the way the factory did in the 50's and 60's
i am putting some colt reground cams in my 4.6,good dual exhaust,cold air k/n air filter.hoping for maybe 20 more net horse power.around 320 net HP
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-08-04 15:31
with a good set of dual exhaust,the mark 4.6 will make about 300 net horse power.that is about 400 gross horse power,if you rate the horse power the way the factory did in the 50's and 60's
I'm basically going with the stock LSC unit which is advertized at 305 HP. WAY more useful horsepower than my hi compression 428.
OK, so here is a link to a pic that shows what happens when you cross two coil pack sensor wires, run a rough running motor for 30 minutes, then try to start it the next morning...
http://tinyurl.com/2dwl5yx (http://tinyurl.com/2dwl5yx)
Discovered my wiring snafu and now this baby's purring like a kitten (with another new left side muffler).
Now all we need to do is...
1. Fully mount the clip
2. build a battery box
3. mount all the AC stuff
4. Have the left muffler welded on
5. front end alignment
6. back on the road
Maybe one more week.
It's been a really crazy, crazy project. We have been working 8 hours 7 days a week for 4 weeks. Two guys with all the trick shop tools you could ever want. So if you're contemplating this kind of project, loose the idea that you can get it done easily, quickly or cheaply.
Here's the latest pics...
http://tinyurl.com/24bnfp2 (http://tinyurl.com/24bnfp2)
Nice work , awesome job. Thanks for the pics. Mark
Well folks we finally ran the car on the road yesterday. Quite amazing, really. It's having its one muffler rewelded and an alignment on Monday then a bit of time to hook up the AC.
The project is not solidly on the downhill slope. I may not be contributing much more to this forum in the near future. Now would be a good time to ask questions.
Bob
Hope everything with you is ok in so. cal. I've sure appreciated the thorough input you've provided. several questions: Other than the assumed wrong connector problem you hinted at with the detail zone kit...how hard was it to install, and what was your experience level with similar instals? I know it had to have been incredibly tedious, but is it as easy to follow as the manufacturer suggests?
What was your initial impression of the overall swap with your first drive? and same question with regards to performance with whatever rear end ratio you're running (which is?) and one other question if you don't mind sharing the info..what did the shop that guided you thru the install charge...I think if I remember correctly you once remarked you were helping him with the swap...for his end of it.? Thanks again...Rich
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2010-08-08 13:26
Hope everything with you is ok in so. cal. I've sure appreciated the thorough input you've provided. several questions: Other than the assumed wrong connector problem you hinted at with the detail zone kit...how hard was it to install, and what was your experience level with similar instals? I know it had to have been incredibly tedious, but is it as easy to follow as the manufacturer suggests?
What was your initial impression of the overall swap with your first drive? and same question with regards to performance with whatever rear end ratio you're running (which is?) and one other question if you don't mind sharing the info..what did the shop that guided you thru the install charge...I think if I remember correctly you once remarked you were helping him with the swap...for his end of it.? Thanks again...Rich
The wrong connector problems were not a minor thing. Given the fact that they knew about "early" and "late" 96 model differences, it shows a complete lack of quality control and concern for customer satisfaction. You would think, given this, that during 4 phone calls and several emails before the sale some idiot there would have asked a question about what the MAF connector looked like (or something). Other than that, the kit was made up of excellent quality and installed pretty much as easily as they claim. HOWEVER, many people cannot hookup 4 wires to their trailer hitch with an indian guide.
That said; if you came to me with the kit in a box and your car on a lift I would charge you $3k to install it and not a penny less. It's hard to explain. You just have no idea what is involved and 3 grand is a bargain. As "easy" as it is it took two weeks to get it installed.
It's hard to say about performance having driven it only a few miles; but there is way more useful HP with this engine than with my 428. No question. My rear is 3.00 (about the same as the Lincoln).
Bill's Auto Repair in Orange, CA is charging me less than any other customer but is not inexpensive. We have been working 8 hours a day 7 days for 5 and a half weeks. I kid you not. We have all the trick shop tools you could ever want and this guy has 40 years experience. I mention it to give you an idea about how much time and effort goes into this kind of thing. I suppose one guy working alone with jack stands and a cherrypicker hoist could do this job but I would not advise it.
We have about another week to wrap everything up. I think I'll have about $10K invested.
Been following your build with a good bit of interest, lots of tips. I am contemplating a swap using a 2006 P71 CV donor car. Not as good as your Mark VIII but it moves the Crown along pretty good. I am good at fabrication, have all the necessary tools, career was in electronics, so it is doable. My question is, if you were starting again would you go the same route or something easier like maybe a 351W
Thanks Larry
I need to post script my comments about the Detail Zone/Ron Francis wiring from yesterday.
I stand by harsh yet deserved critique but to clarify my position...
The kit is of excellent quality. Aside from the customer service aspects, I would buy another kit from them if I were to do another project but I would certainly check each and every connector to the engine and trans before beginning the wiring project.
Bob
Quote from: Rideau 500 on 2010-08-11 11:17
Been following your build with a good bit of interest, lots of tips. I am contemplating a swap using a 2006 P71 CV donor car. Not as good as your Mark VIII but it moves the Crown along pretty good. I am good at fabrication, have all the necessary tools, career was in electronics, so it is doable. My question is, if you were starting again would you go the same route or something easier like maybe a 351W
Thanks Larry
I do not know if anyone makes a wiring kit for that year and model. I'm guessing it's a 4.6L 2v.
You will not be able to even start the engine until you have the ECU reprogrammed. the PATS will otherwise prevent you
You should thoroughly research all the components before committing to the project.
My project goals were...
1. Engine was thrashed so I needed a rebuild or replacement
2. I'm sick of building cars and hot rodding like it was still the 60's
3. This is my wife's daily ride so I needed reliability, power and gas mileage in that order
So, a 351W does not fit any of the goals. Maybe a 5.0L efi would but I don't really see that as saving me much.
Bob
Quote from: Rideau 500 on 2010-08-11 11:17
Been following your build with a good bit of interest, lots of tips. I am contemplating a swap using a 2006 P71 CV donor car. Not as good as your Mark VIII but it moves the Crown along pretty good. I am good at fabrication, have all the necessary tools, career was in electronics, so it is doable. My question is, if you were starting again would you go the same route or something easier like maybe a 351W
Thanks Larry
you will also have trouble with the speedo,there is no place to put a speedo cable.ford removed it in about 2002
The engine is a 250 HP 4.6 2V. The Crown was an ex police vehicle and as such was not equipped with P A T S. (Who's going to steal a cop car). I was planning to swap everything including the wiring and digital dash. I realize what will be involved but I have been into wiring and schematics my whole life so should not be insurmountable. If I can't make it work there's a good market for boat anchors out here on the coast.
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2010-08-11 11:50
you will also have trouble with the speedo,there is no place to put a speedo cable.ford removed it in about 2002
Not really a problem. You need a trans sending unit from an early 90's ford (mine came from a 92 Ranger). These units have the digital sensor and the mechanical drive. Then you need a cable that has the bullet trans end and the 5/8 nut on speedo side.
Look towards the bottom of this page for number 7200 (cable that I used)... http://tinyurl.com/yftyktf (http://tinyurl.com/yftyktf)
Or get the 7300 that has the correct sending unit (bit pricey) or if you want a new sending unit look for #9SS (the one in the 4R70W is like their #8SS). Anyway you can scrounge the sender for $5 at a parts yard. I could not find any car/truck with the correct ends for the cable so I popped the $45 for this one mentioned here.
Stock 57 speedo works fine but need to calibrate with the correct gear. The 17 tooth from the Lincoln is close for now (a 20 reads too slow).
Quote from: Rideau 500 on 2010-08-11 18:30
The engine is a 250 HP 4.6 2V. The Crown was an ex police vehicle and as such was not equipped with P A T S. (Who's going to steal a cop car). I was planning to swap everything including the wiring and digital dash. I realize what will be involved but I have been into wiring and schematics my whole life so should not be insurmountable. If I can't make it work there's a good market for boat anchors out here on the coast.
The Mk VIII is rated at 305 which is only 190 less than the Mustang Cobra. And, that CV motor is not going to be any easier to install than the 4v.
I had the car out today for a bit and I can tell you it really leaps up and goes when you mash the pedal (and in my case were talking the full weight of a 9 pass wagon)
Point is, wrecked Mk VIII's are cheap. Believe me, this is a very involved project; we have 2 guys working with all the trick tools and wiring kit and we have more than 300 hours into this by the time we're done and wouldn't have been a minute less installing a 2v. In my case, it was a lot of effort either way so I went for the HP.
Let me know if you run into any tricky bits; we've seen them all.
Good Luck,
After a few days of driving I had to replace the steering ram end seal. I guess the extra pressure made it go south. Having no water leaks we also drained the radiator and block and refilled with proper mix coolant.
Now the only problem is a screeching noise that occasionally comes from the under dash ac units circulation valve. These r134 units are a bit strange to me so I'll have to get it over to the ac shop to wring it out.
As this project is basically completed I may not be checking this group very often so if questions or the need for help arises, you can contact me at: rclaborne (at) yahoo.com
Bob
Quote from: Rideau 500 on 2010-08-11 18:30
The engine is a 250 HP 4.6 2V. The Crown was an ex police vehicle and as such was not equipped with P A T S. (Who's going to steal a cop car). I was planning to swap everything including the wiring and digital dash. I realize what will be involved but I have been into wiring and schematics my whole life so should not be insurmountable. If I can't make it work there's a good market for boat anchors out here on the coast.
i am using the wiring out of the doner car[95 markviii]under hood,dash,fuse panel ect.get a factory wiring diagram manual.i got one for the markviii and has been very helpful[about half done taking it out]
to keep the cost down on this swap,i would buy a whole mark viii and take as much out of it as possible.i have about $1200 in my swap so far and am hoping to do it over the winter for about $2500
trying to decide what rear end gear ratio to run.because the mark viii has a speed cut off [speed limiter],if i stay with the 3.07 the limiter will cut in about 130mph.if i go to 3.56 [the one i would like]the limiter will cut in about 112mph.i guess i will have to decide how fast i want to go.
not my input, but the guy I talked to last year about building a 9" posi rear for me recommended the (I though he said) 3:55 because of the overdrive, and the fact that I wanted more of a highway cruiser than race set-up.
373's are used in a lot of OD applications of late model stuff
checked on some mark viii forums.have been told that if i can find a early 93 computer[W3Z2 calibration code]they do not have a speed limiter and have a 6850 rev limiter.if this is correct,then what axle ratio i pick will not be a big issue.[a 150mph 57 ranchero? :burnout:]
I hope all of your various projects are going well. My wife has been driving her Squire around for a couple of months now with nothing bad to report.
I have fixed the fuel starvation problem which occurs when the 57 tank is less than half full. Pretty annoying when you come off a light and it dies; pretty dangerous if you're pulling out into traffic.
Anyway... it requires a low pressure pump and a small tank to feed the injector pump. You can see the setup here: http://public.fotki.com/claborne/57countrysquire-1/assembly/xfertank.html
You can get this trick gadget here: http://www.bcbroncos.com/store/index.php?cPath=131_108
(the pump too but I found it cheaper at Jegs).
Later
Bump for the new guys.
Awesome info, thanks to all that contributed. I have learned quite a lot from this one post.
I think we all did..10500 reads!
wow..I just noticed this has picked up almost a thousand reads in the last month since I bumped it to the top
1001? I just read it yet again and still learned something new. Its also quite sobering to realize the amount of time this swap is going to take. And, if it is like everything else, double the cost of what I expected.
It sounds like you're where I was for a while. After reading RClaiborns inputs I was really sceptical about trying it. I hung on for the longest time waiting for Canadian Ranchero to finish his swap, but unfortunatly we've seem to have lost him. Gary (CR) was incredible coming up with answers for almost anything. After emailing him and some others, and talking to some knowledgeable guys, I came to the conclusion I was probably worrying more about it than I should, and Claiborn quite frankly was probably making it sound more difficult than it was.
You may have some issues being newer than mine that I won't have, but I've gotten over my worrying about it and looking forward to having it to work on. As far as costs go, I think we'll still be ahead of the curve as opposed to spending big bucks for a more traditional crate engine, even if the swap is more complicated. The two things that's going to add expense that I can see, over a more traditional swap, is the Detai Zone system, and the fuel system. The other engine parts required to make the swap aren't going to be that much money, rearend and exhaust won't be any different. I will say, there's no way I would have tried it without the input from this and other threads.
"we can do this"
PS...I may be up your way in a few weeks. Trying to decide whether to wait for it or do the sunflower swap in Witchita, Ks. this weekend...I need a road trip!
Rich;
I do hope you make it up for the Tri-State meet. I am looking forward to meeting you and maybe get some first hand pointers for my project. I can always use a 2nd opinion! Al
Rich,
I will be at the Model T swap meet in Wichita tommorrow. Let me know if you are coming in. Maybe I could meet you somewhere if you are. I live here locally.
Tanker....I went Friday.I somehow missed the fact you lived in Kansas, or I would have sent a pm before I left. I decided early Thursday to go on up, so I was already in your area when you posted that. What a bummer!! I'm gonna do a post on the meet in the general discusion area.
Went thru a lot of Kansas I had never been before..you sure got a lot of grain silos up that way. 7 hour drive each way..longer, but a little faster coming home thru OK City on the way back.
Thought I'd add a progress report on my project. I did fit the engine in the 57 frame today. Pretty much like previous post on this topic which included notching the motor mount plates on the 57 crossmember. I believe there is picture on this thread that shows this. Motor mounts seem to line up at an acceptable angle which should be a simple bolt in. I did have to trim about 1/2 inch from the "ear" of the upper control arm (drivers side) to clear the water tube outlet above the oil filter. Oil filter clears and will be changeable without too much effort. Other clearances are really tight; adjusting the upper control arms will be an issue. The Mach 1 exhaust manifolds clear easily and exhaust pipes should hook up. I do not have any steering controls on the car but plan on using a rack & pinion and hopefully can work around the the exhaust pipes. I do not have the transmission on the engine at this point so that mount will have to wait. I am still considering grafting the Mustang firewall and floors in the 57 and that will take care of the transmission mount as it is built in the Mustang floor. It will also make it easier to mount the various Mustang controls in the same way.
Anyway, I knew from the previous posts on this topic that this engine was going to fit, but there is nothing like actually doing it youself for reassurance! Al
Awesome. Why don't you order a nice set of headers, and mail me your oem manifolds to get them out of your way. Do those have the oxygen sensors?
I forgot what tranny yours has. Were you able to set to motor in with the exhaust manifolds on, or did you put them on after?
I've been looking at new exhaust manifolds, and the seem to be manufactured with and without the o sensor bung thingies. The ones with the bungs cost double. If I don't put them in my setup, I'll have to have the computer reprogramed..which I don't want to do. Otherwise it'll continue to throw check engine codes. It'll be much easier down the road in case of malfunction if I can just replace with an oem computer.
Rich'
Exhaust manifolds stayed on and easily cleared. The exhaust pipes that extend to the h box have the oxygen sensors on them. They do appear like they will hook up okay. The transmission I have is a 5 speed manual.
The exhaust manifolds on the Mach 1 keep really close to the block and I have read that is similar with the Cobra as well. Some of the numerous sites I have visited mention looking for these for the mark v111 swap.
If you should still make it to the Tri-State swap meet this weekend,you could take some measurements which may be of help. I have not lifted on the radiator support to take measurements for clearance there. I left the inner fenders bolted on to the support and it is too awkward to handle by myself. Al
Unfortunatly I won't be able to make it up there this weekend. Decided to go to Kansas last weekend because the weather was good. I got snowed out of the Denver trip the last two years and didn't want to have that happen again, and not get in a needed road trip. I decided to wait for warmer weather for Colorado so I can spend some time up in the mountains as well, besides, you'll be further along in your swap!!
Interesting about the sensors being in the pipes, and not the manifolds. That'd work for me also. Somewhere I read the O sensors have to be as close to the engine as posible, but if they did the pipes oem that way on some vehicles, should be good enough.
Quote from: 57dohc on 2013-02-05 21:30
I left the inner fenders bolted on to the support and it is too awkward to handle by myself. Al
I have to remove the core support to get the 460 in and out. I remove the front clip in one piece. I made a bar to bolt across the inner fenders and use a cherry picker to lift the clip off by myself. The idea came from the bars for pickup boxes.
LOL...why do I have this horible feeling I'm gonna find out firsthand before too long why you have to keep taking your motor in and out?
back to the top
to the top
ron francis wireing offers wiring harness for 4.6 now.
rich, ive had my engine in and out three or four times. getting ready to pull it out again for transmission installation. had a dummy a.t in for fitup. i hope this is the last time for me, too. lol
Hotwheels...welcome to the forum. Yes they do and I can tell you first hand it's a great kit. Check the last few pages of the "4.6 dohc being installed now" thread I've been running. This is an old thread with several newer ones running.
Phillip....I've been wondering how yours was coming along. I am so happy I sprang for a plastic mock up block when I started my fitment. Total weight was about 60-65 lbs with the motor mounts and gutted 4r70w tranny. My dirt floor work area with a low ceiling meant no engine hoist inside. I had to do my install outside. I needed to get it prepped so when the time came it was in once and done. Best money I ever spent. A local friend here has used it twice since.
rich, i don't work in my garage very much when it is cold, and this winter has been extra cold. been finishing up on some wiring details under the dash. i'm using the stock mark viii harness, and it is a long process, wiring each system in. i spent two days on the COP conversion alone. got the most of it completed now. may be ready to start up in a few weeks. congratulations on your successful startup.
Sounds like your moving along on it. You guys that can make it all work by modifying the oem harnesses just amaze the heck out of me.
Now that I've got mine running I can change mine over to the cop's also. I've already got the cop valve covers on the engine. I just need to wait until I've got some cash for a set of coils. What are you using for the coils, btw? I'm guessing the cheap sets that can be found on EBAY are a waste of money? I've read that the best ones are just the OEM Ford Motorcraft.
i have been told that also,tha oem coils being the best ones
I've followed quite a few posts with guys putting the 4.6 into early Ford trucks and they all say the same thing, the aftermarket ones are junk, even major brands sold through the speed shops last no time and to stay with the OEM..
i'm using ford coils. my engine is a 98, but i am using a 96 computer for PATS reasons, and it has to be rewired for cop. i mentioned before that i am super low buck, so no money wasted on pats deletes. lol