body fillers

[RICH MUISE]

This is a takeoff on the great discussion we've been having on paint and bodywork costs that I hope won't get too controversial. We've all grown up hearing and seeing the negatives about "Bondo", and in fact there have been several negative comments on this forum in recent months, but I'm wondering what the real life reality is.
This is my take on it... like everything else there are right and wrong ways of doing things. Lead and non-lead body solders can be as much a problem as polyester body fillers if not done correctly, and it is rapidly becoming a lost art. The fluxes needed for the non-lead solders can cause accelerated corrosion if trapped in voids and pinholes. The old lead and tin standard for a zillion years can only be filed, not sanded, so in most cases you're going to end up with a light coat of poly filler anyway (I'm trying to avoid the term Bondo) and there are many panels that should not be leaded because of adverse heat reaction on high stressed panels.  To be honest, I wasn't even sure if body lead was even still available because of the widespread toxic problems associated with lead, so I went to eastwood website this morning to check, and it is.
The problem with polyester body fillers ( I use evercoat rage gold, 48. a gallon vs bondo 15. gal), is that it is so easy to be mishandled that it has been given an undeserved bad rap. In the good old days (prior to 9/11), if your rocker was rotted out, you'd stuff newspapers in the hole and fill it with bondo. We've all seen it applied over paint and so on...all the things not to do with it. I suspect the 50 and 100k body jobs we're talked about have alot of leading done to them, but every t.v. show you've seen (Foose, etc.) is all about the poly fillers, not leading. I think in many cases it's put on too heavy speaking of Foose's show, but if not used to replace metal, but only to smooth it, it is perfectly acceptable. Perhaps another case of hi-tech overtaking the old craftsmanship.
I am curious about what the shops you guys have been dealing with are doing..I'm told no one in my area even does leading if you could afford it. I know with the old stigma attached to "Bondo", no one wants to say it's on their car, but in reality, has anyone had any bodywork done where it wasn't used?   Rich

[RICH MUISE]

A note on a gallon of filler...sounds like a lot of filler, and it is, but this is usually how it ends up for me: first off that gallon can is sold by weight, not volume, and they are about 1/4 empty when you open the can., so we'll call that gallon 3 quarts. It takes me so long to use it, the last quart is usually too pasty to be used effectively so it gets trashed. that's down to 2 quarts. I almost always either mix in too much activator or just mix up too much filler, so about 1/2 of what I mix gets left on the pallet (wasteful I know). That's down to one quart. I probably block sand off 2/3 of what I actually apply to the car, leaving very thin coats, often thin enough to see thru. So in reality that gallon of 48. filler ends up being about 2/3 of a pint on the car.

[JimNolan]

Rich,
   Bondo is a fact of life on just about any restoration. I really believe leading is a lost art but so is sword fighting. Why use a sword when a slug from a 38 special will be more effective at a longer distance.
   I think Bondo used to cover up holes is perfectly alright. Bondo used to cover up rust is OK if you can accept the fact it is not going to last. Bondo has been the Godsend of plenty a young man with little money and big dreams.
   I paid a lot of money to have all the rust taken out of my car. And, after paying that money for new panels and fenders, what happens, I walk into the body shop and here my car is completely covered with a thin layer of Bondo. Granted, most of it was sanded off but how much effort and time would have been used if it were leaded instead. That's why paint jobs are so much nicer today than they were in the 50's. At today's prices who could afford lead. Jim

[RICH MUISE]

THANK YOU Jim! I always wonder what the guys that refer to Bondo ( there I go again...I don't use Bondo, it's probably the lowest quality filler on the market) in a negative way would do on their ride. And once again, the biggest problem with buying a car that has been Bondo'd is not the fact that it has Bondo, but you never know for sure if it was applied correctly. My friend at the restoration shop was telling me of a truck he got in for restoration work. The owner had the truck for 20 years and it had been painted before he got it. when they stripped the hood they found a large dented area that had a 1/2" of bondo on it. that was put on a hood over 20 years ago and was still intact after all that hood slaming. I'm not saying a half inch of Bondo is ok, but it just goes to show what it will do if applied correctly.
I also wonder what detroit is doing for filler at body seams...they for sure aren't using lead like they did on our 57's.

[Lou]

A friend of mine who owns a body shop told me that Bondo is a good product but is usually missed used. Two of the most important things with Bondo, always prime coat before you apply Bondo, and never more than a 1/8 inch thick.

[Ford Blue blood]

That "stuff" known as "panel surface leveling" material (heard it on TV so it must be true).  High end shops use it all the time and for the most part exclusively.  Rich that amount is not at all out of the ordinary, just hate that the most of it ends up in the round file!  The biggest area folks get into trouble with it is not ensuring all of it is sealed.  That is to say that spot welded seam will leach in moisture and the area will bubble.  Filling holes, use it but be sure you paint POR-15 on the back side.  Don't water sand it, apply primer as soon as possible.  If there are imperfections polyester spot putty can go on top of the primer to fix.  The real bottom line is "Bondo" is better than lead in many (nealy all) respects.  Just have know a few things about it and how it reacts to various stimulie.....

[RICH MUISE]

A friend of mine who owns a body shop told me that Bondo is a good product but is usually missed used. Two of the most important things with Bondo, always prime coat before you apply Bondo, and never more than a 1/8 inch thick.

I was probably overcritical on the brand name Bondo as they do make different grades,and if you need it on a weekend, Walmarts is always open, but I do prefer the Evercoat brand. It is finer grain with less porosity, sands much easier and feathers beautifully. I agree with your friend about not going over 1/8", and I would keep that thickness only in very small areas.I shoot for a max of about 1/16. However I do have to disagree with your friend on always priming before applying filler. Maybe it's a difference in manufacturer's recommendations, but I go by the rule never apply it over paint or primer. Evercoat requires all paint be removed with a 60-80 grit disc prior to application of filler. The poly glazing coat, which look like body fillers but are much lighter weight and finer, are applied over primers as a final leveling of surfaces that were missed or needed a little fineseing when blocking. It seems like somewhere in the past I did read an article where it said the filler could be used over epoxy primer, but imho, I wouldn't.

[RICH MUISE]

This is my trunk lid that I've been working on this week. I use pretty much the same proceedure as Ford-Fellow in that, after a thorough cleaning, I sandblasted the inner structuure and then used an 80 grit disc on a 6" da sander to remove the paint from the outer skin. Notice the factory undercoating is still intact in the openings between the inner structure...I'll remove that with heat gun and scraper later. After I DA'd the outer skin I then blocked it with 80 grit in a criss-cross pattern to pick out the high and low spots, and used chalk to identify the areas needing work. At that point, I ceaned it twice with wax and grease remover and applied the filler. My trunk is going to be decked, so later today I'll cut some plugs for the 2 holes and weld them in. After that, I'll apply a coat of Epoxy primer all over. After curing, I'll scuff the epoxy and apply a few coats of High build primer with a 2.5 primer gun, block it to (hopefully) perfection. If I missed any highs or lows that the primer wont take care of, I'll use polyester glazing coat at this time. then apply the last coats of high build and wait for paint day. When painting time comes, it'll get it's final blocking,then a coat of tinted sealer/primer, the basecoats, and the final clearcoats. Everything is done dry to this point, the only time the car will see water is on the final blocking and polishing of the clearcoat.

[RICH MUISE]

If you look close at the first pic, you can see how the blocking pattern makes the low spot stand out ( it still has the jitterbug finish). Also I'll have to do some rust treatment to the underside outer lip area next to where the weatherstiping was. Also a few tips: The heavy coated paper plates made by dixie make great filler mixing palettes. I find it much easier to use than the tear-off paper palettes you buy in supply shops. when I'm done applying the filler, I scrape off the excess filler using the edge of the paper plate, then clean the applicator with a paper towel and laquer thinner before it the filler dries. That keeps the applicator from getting all rattie on the edges like it does if you try to scrape it off after it is dried. Also the chalk works great and removes easily with no residue for identifying areas that need work. I do that to the primered surfaces also. (note all my wasted filler I was talking about earlier). Also on spot putties: you do not want to use the old fashined red putty in a tube to fill scratches. It will shrink and keep shrinking and everyplace you used it will show under your paint. Use polyester glazing, or spot, putty.
Ford-Fellow: since you either do this for a living (or an awfully intense hobby), feel free to chime in if you agree or disagree with anything, I'd sure appreciate your opinion

[Zapato]

I also use Evercoat Gold, few years ago I was buying some filler at a paint supply store and asked one of the counter guys what the difference was between the 5 or 6 different fillers they sold. They were lined up on one shelf without any prices. And he proceeded to educate me. The cheapest he said was for a car you were going to sell tomorrow to a complete stranger, small used car lots bought a lot of that and would rattle can over the repair. Next was for a car you still figured on selling but not right away, probably gets a backyard paintjob. It went on until he got to Evercoat. That was what the best shops in town were using not only because of lasting quality, ease of working but because it also saves you money on other related products. He explained that if you were using the cheap stuff you'll go thru a lot more abrasives as they tend to clog up your boards and you're constantly changing out paper. But with Evercoat as your board starts to load up a couple of raps across the board with a welding rod pretty much clears all the spent filler. And as he also mentioned Evercoat is what you use on a car you plan on keeping forever.

Bondo was actually closer to the high end than the cheaper stuff. The lead vs. bondo argument is really kinda silly. Both products have their uses they both come with their own shortcomings. I have both in my 51 coupe and so far so good on both.

Plastic fillers have been around for almost a century, some good some almost junk. And if shop wisely really not much difference in price.

Zap

[Ford Blue blood]

Rich just a hobbiest (did do it for a living for three years after retiring from the Navy but quit because my stuff sat in the corner after a week of working on other peoples stuff).   I do study and read and ask the experts (mfg reps) and practice on scrap.  Can't say enough about the reps, they want even us hobbiest to use their product and therefore spend the time to make sure we know how to do what to whom and when....

I think your proceedure is fine.  I like self etching (light coat) and then two regular build coats of urethane.  I then like at least two days of sun exposure (heat lamps work too) to make sure all the chemicals are out and all shrinking is done.  Block (220), get a long board, can't spend too much time with it!  Look for low and high spots, fix (spot putty/small body pick), re-prime with one coat and block again (400).  I continue blocking until bare metal (or the self etching primer) just begins to show through, that is to say the primer is slightly translucent, shoot it again with a slightly thinner (4 - 2 1/2 - 1) mixture and block with 600.  If you break through in small spots just hit with a 4 - 3 - 1 mixture to seal it up and the panel is ready for paint.  I try to keep the paint on the panel as thin as possible (less prone to chipping) so I can use an extra coat of clear in the end.

[RICH MUISE]

thanks for the input. One thing I forgot to mention with the high-build primer I'm using: All high builds are designed to go over base primers, but only some can also be used over bare metal. That was the deciding factor on the brand I decided to try...not because I was going to spray it over bare metal, but you inevitably end up with bare spots here and there on crowns, edges, high spots.with the "HI-TECH" brand I use I don't have to worry about going back and mixing more epoxy just to touch up a tiny area. That high build primer has really cut my finish bodywork time in half...I love it.