Tell me I'm not screwed!

[57 Ford Kustom]

Guys,
   I have a big problem. As you know I am doing some mild up grades to my 351w. I had one bolt on the block for the timing chain cover, and one manifold bolt that broke off in the head. Well, I have been avoiding the removal for as long as I could. Yesterday I purchased a extractor set at my parts store, and you guessed it, The extractors broke inside the bolts I was triing to remove. After I dried my eyes, I came hear for some hope. For a month now I have been spraying them with penetrating oil every chance I got, and I even heated the bolts before triing to remove, but the results have been disastrous! PLEASE, tell me I'm not screwed!
Thanks,
Tim

[JimNolan]

PLEASE, tell me I'm not screwed!
Thanks,
Tim

YOU'RE NOT SCREWED. If I were you and I didn't want to take the head off I'd concentrate on getting the extractor out. Use small drills and peck around it with a small punch back and forth until it loosened up. Then I'd put the manifold back on the head. Install a hardened sleeve into the manifold bolt hole and use a end mill or good drill to plunge into the broken bolt. I'd tap that hole for a smaller size bolt. One of two things would happen. The new smaller tapped hole could be used to secure the manifold to the engine or the old bolt breaks loose allowing you to extract it. In any case, now is the time to take a deep breath and submit to time and patience, not throwing tools and yelling. Jim

[suede57ford]

If you broke the exract or tap off in the hole you may be able to take a small punch and break it up by pounding it into the hole.   The extractors and taps are usually a hard but brittle material, so they may chip away.   It you can drive the remaining part into the water jacket it won't hurt to leave in there if you cannot fish it out.

Possibly you can drill the hole out to about the sixw of the inside of the threads. This way all you have left is a little bit of the broken bolt threads left in the block threads.  Use a small punch or even a pick to peel them out of the threads.

A carbide bit die grinder works well on larger bolts to grind out all the broken bolt until you get the diameter close to the inner thread size.  then when the left over bolt threads at just slivers, pick them out a pick.

I have never had good luck withthe extractors on a truely stuck  bolt, so I usually drill or grind it to start with, then pick out the old thread slivers.

Good luck.

[RICH MUISE]

Sound like good advise Tim.
Correct me if I'm wrong guys, I've never done it, but I do believe it is not the bolt you want to heat, but the area around the bolt. heating the bolt would make it expand, increasing the difficulty of getting it out.
Rich

[Zapato]

Broken bolts and studs, Did tons of those in my Navy days as many ways to tackle those as there are machinists. E-Z outs or extractors in my experience more often than not just add more work as they often chatter in the bolt and now you'll spend time chipping the shards out before you get back to the original problem. My advise never use them.

lots of different ways to tackle this. It mght be too late now for some now, Jim's procedure is probably the best in a very well equipped shop.  My guess is yours probably not. I used to crawl into hot crowded machinery spaces onboard ship armed with only a center punch,mill file, a drill bit one size smaller than tap size, ball peen hammer, a couple of home made picks (think dental picks) right size tap to chase threads.  Would say that 95% of the time that would work. It always depended at what stage of the game we were called in to help. Sometimes it was almost impossible to save, but out at sea you need to get creative.  my approach usually was to file broken stud flat, center punch it as close as perfect on center, drill with the undersize drill removing most of the broken stud out. Bolt thread depth are always deeper than the tapped thread size so if everything went as hoped for you'd end with a thin spiral with no real strength to pick out. And that part of the job usually takes the longest. As much as possible try not limit your use of punches as that's where you run the highest risk of making junk.

If its damaed to the point that you end up going oversize there are again different ways to repair the part.

You could weld/braze the hole full then drill and tap to proper size. Wouldn't recommend this myself but have seen it done.

Drill and tap it oversize, 2 choices then use oversize fastener or we used to at times make a two diameter stud and use it. When you're ship is dead in the water and a sea-going tug is several days out you do whatever it takes.

Keen-Serts do a google search, Only drawback is for a one hole repair it gets expensive buying not only more than you need and an installation tool. lots of similar fixes search also for helicoils.

The cleanest easiest way I've seen use is not usually found in most guys home shops or even machine repair shops. And that is usinG an EDM ( electrical discharge machine) to blast out the broken fastener, then pick out the debris and chase the threads with a tap.

Anther often use procedure that has a good results and part of the bolt is above the mating surface is to thread or slip a nut on,flush with machined surface, some guys will use a washer underneath, rosette weld the nut an, then treating it as a new bolt.  Now all that corrosive material that caused the problem in the first place is still there so work that bolt back and forth. In this case finesse beats out brute strength.

However if after taking Jim's advice to take a deep breath and looking it over you feel overwhelmed or unsure visit an automotive machine shop they do this kinds of repairs on a regular basis.

You're not screwed, just a normal temporary setback. Good luck.

Zap-

[geraldchainsaw]

ok,  i've read all the posts,  and the last is probly the best solution,   i worked in tool & die and had this problems alot,  and also on some of my old cars,  before u use a center punch or what ever tool to try to get it to move,  if theres any material showing or maybe just below the surface,  u can build it up with welding,  enough that u can cover it with a washer,  weld it on,  let it cool,  weld a nut on,  let it cool and don't think its coming off right away,  work it back and forth,  hit it with some oil,  takes time and more time,  and when u do get it out,  re tap it,  just takes time,   just my 2 cents

[Zapato]

Gerald, good to know never tried building up a below surface broken bolt. not sure my skill set would work . Did you shield the exposed thread areas and if so with what.  I've had good results doing this myself but never tried below surface.

often though the approach taken is determined by the tools on hand. which is why i offered several. or on shipboard often the conines of the space dictated my approach. Actually did it so often that it just became my norm.

patience is the key, without it just failure lurking.
Zap-

[57 Ford Kustom]

Guy's,
   I knew this is where I'd find hope! Thanks for all the input. Tomorrow I will work on it, Had much more important things to do today. Spent the day with my 16 Mo. old grand daughter, I love that girl!!!
Thanks agian,
Tim

[geraldchainsaw]

to zap,   broken studs usually in the block,  your weld isn't going to stick to cast iron,  much like sticking a sheet of brass or copper under a welding areA,   at least from my experience,  also,  the heat from the welding helps,   jerry

[wv 57s forever]

     knock wood i haven't had any of these for a while but i allway used left handed drill bits. 

[Zapato]

Duh! wasn't thinking cast iron.  A true Homer moment here.

Zap-

[len]

you dont want to heat the bolt.you want to heat the metal around it.metal expands under heat if you heat the bolt you are just making it tighter.my sugestion would be to weld a bolt on to it if you can get at it and than reheat the metal around the bolt. not red hot like i would normaly do when doing a broken extraction cause its a cyl head but real hot .once you have a bolt weldet to your broken bolt and the cyl head around ithead is hot give the bolt head a solid whak with a hammer to jar it loose than work it back and forth just a tiny bit with a wrench.in my business i deal with broken bolt extractions every day and this should really do it.len