When to do engine fit test.

[trent17]

To show my complete and total lack of knowledge on car mods. I see pictures of car frames and engines only. Was the engine fitted before body was lifted off frame? How do you know how far to move engine forward or back in the engine compartment with out radiator shrouds and tire wells? When do you need to cut the trans tunnel out? I have not nailed down a motor yet but have a source for one. I was thinking 302 or 351. What should I look for an easier install swap? Is one better than another? If it matters my car had the 292 in it. Engine was trash, oil was drained 40 years ago with one head removed, hood left open for awhile. Any suggestions?

[Frankenstein57]

The engine swap kind of depends on the direction you want to go with your car. The 302/351 is a good choice, easy swap, plenty of clearance. Transmission choice will determine if you need to cut the tunnel at all. You can find lots of ford smallblocks on the internet, cheap. The 429/460 is a bit close to the radiator, exhaust is a challenge. The smallblock ford factory headers are a bolt in. You can do a search for the combo you want, on this site and get ton's of info, good luck.  Mark

[RICH MUISE]

Trent....what Mark said.
Keep in mind these comments are coming from someone, as I mentioned before, who was in the exact same boat as you are now when I started my project 7 years ago...and is in process of their first engine conversion.
As far as traditional swaps....I've seen very few tunnels that have had to be cut to make room for the tranny...other than added floor shifters. Most of the traditional swaps such as you've mentioned have motor mounts that will locate the engine where you need it. The traditional swaps have lots of guys to ask specific questions. Wheel wells will not interfere with any fitments, unless you're talking wheel well exiting headers. Most of the fitment issues are related to the frame, not the body, and components attached to it (steering, control arms,oil pan/crossmember issues, etc). You'll have to pull the steering box/column to remove the body, but it could be reinstalled temporarily if clearance is an issue.
The guys that have done the more traditional swaps can answer specific questions as far as any adjustments they had to make to pinion angles, or adjustments in engine/tranny mount heights to get an acceptable pinion angle. This particular aspect of the install is somewhat determined by your final ride height/stance...ie..your drivetrain front to back angle in relation to the frame will be different on your car if it has a rake (edited from "is lowered in the front"), than a vehicle that is level (edited from "lowered") all the way around.
As far as when to fit.. with the more traditional swaps that have known issues, or non-issues, it probably doesn't matter. From an access standpoint, it would be much easier to install your engine/tranny on the frame without the body in the way. In any case, you want to do it with the front sheet metal off.

[57AGIN]

 trent17:

More of what Mark & Rich said.  Most of the Ford automatics that originally bolted to the Windsor blocks will likely fit your tunnel without modification (C-4 & C-6 transmissions).  I'm not sure about the later AOD's, etc.  The manual T-10 & T-5 transmissions should fit without alteration, with the T-5 having a 5th gear overdrive (very desirable).  I believe all the TREMEC transmissions will require extensive tunnel & transmission cross member alterations. 

For more oomph, I replace a sick 302 with a 351W and have never been sorry.  I recently replaced my original T-10 4-speed with a TREMEC TKO 600 5-speed.  The overdrive 5th gear is a real blessing on the freeways.  Our 57's with rear end gearing above 3:00 to 1 can really use the additional overdrive gear for freeway driving.  Most depends on what you want to do in driving your 57.  Good luck and enjoy your 57.

Bob
57 AGIN

[Tom S]

... pinion angle. This particular aspect of the install is somewhat determined by your final ride height/stance...ie..your drivetrain front to back angle in relation to the frame will be different on your car if it is lowered in the front, than a vehicle that is lowered all the way around.

Emm.. Lowering one or both ends will not affect the pinion angle.
You could stand the car on end & the pinion angle will not change as long as the rear axle goes relatively straight up or down in relation to the frame.
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[RICH MUISE]

Tom.....Tell me if I'm wrong.  You are correct in that once the drivetrain is set in place, and everything is "locked together", lowering the front  of a car won't change the pinion angle. Lowering the back could change the pinion angle if the height of the axle was changed in relation to the frame.
What I was talking about was during the setup of the engine, which is what Trent was asking about. As it was explained to me, and if I understood correctly, when you are setting up your engine you want it to end up level to 3 degrees down on the backside at final ride height , so therefore you have to know what your final stance (not height necessarily, but rake) is going to be. I'm wanting my car to have approximatly a 3 degree rake when it's done, so I leveled up my frame front to back, and set the engine in with a 5 degree downward angle. When the car is finished, the engine should end up around 2-3 degrees. This angling of the engine will change the pinion angle. Am I wrong?

[Tom S]

Lowering the back could change the pinion angle if the height of the axle was changed in relation to the frame.

No.
Like this, if you move that / mark up or down or tilt the whole thing left or right as much as you want the angle between them remains the same. 
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... if I understood correctly, when you are setting up your engine you want it to end up level to 3 degrees down on the backside at final ride height , so therefore you have to know what your final stance (not height necessarily, but rake) is going to be. I'm wanting my car to have approximatly a 3 degree rake when it's done, so I leveled up my frame front to back, and set the engine in with a 5 degree downward angle. When the car is finished, the engine should end up around 2-3 degrees. This angling of the engine will change the pinion angle. Am I wrong?

I think you are going about this the hard way.  I don't know where this engine 3 degree down comes from, sounds like a rough rule of thumb.  You didn't have to level your frame & go from that.  Indeed, you do not really know if your car will end up with a 3 degree rake.  You may end up a bit off. 
What was your pinion angle when you leveled the frame?  Or for that matter when not leveled?  Was the frame on jackstands & the suspension hanging or were the jacksands under the rearend too?  Much difference in the pinion angle?
What I would do is set the engine & trans & then measure the angle of the face of the pinion & set the engine at the same angle.  And it would not/could not matter what rake the car the car was at at the time, as long as the engine & rearend were at the same angle.
Someplace somebody mentioned measuring the engine angle from the top of the valve cover.  That didn't sound like a real good method to me since you would have to be at the very top of the valve cover since a bit off to one side or another & not perfectly vertical the angle finder will not read the same.  I concede that it probably wouldn't be enough to make much difference.  Still, I prefer to read the engine/trans angle right from the back of the trans tailshaft.
Rich, after working with trigonometry & figuring angles for years I have a pretty good handle on this stuff.
You've heard it before.  Trust me.   

[Frankenstein57]

I researched this a bit too, there is quite a few pages of debate over on the hamb on the subject. I believe when you sum it up,you want the transmission yoke and the rear axle pinion parallel, correct?

[Tom S]

... you want the transmission yoke and the rear axle pinion parallel, correct?

    Exactly! 

[gasman826]

One of the reasons for downward angle is to level the carburetor.  With EFI, the issue is less.  The downward angle also helps with transmission to tunnel clearance.  For clearance, the bottom of the engine oil pan, bottom of bell housing, and the bottom of the transmission should be parallel with the ground.  Some adjustment can be made at the transmission mount and cross member.  Pinion angle is also adjustable at the rear end.  I'm at the 3 degree mark.

The C6 is likely the biggest transmission option.  Pushing a 460/C6 combo pushed back as far as possible will require tunnel modification.  I started with 460/C6 and modified the front 12 inches of the tunnel.  The current 460 with Lakewood and TKO600 required no tunnel mods.

[RICH MUISE]

Thanks for the explanation Tom. I didn't mean to sound like I was questioning what you were saying, I just thought you misinterpreted what I was talking about, which was engine angle, not pinion angle
Yes, the three degree thing was given to me as a general rule of thumb..as in "you don't want your engine to be out of level more than three degrees or so. I leveled up my frame because I don't have a solid level floor (concrete)to set it up acuratlly on, and it was sitting pretty close to level already...just had to tweek one corner.
Also, the differential will be the last thing I do due to budget restraints. When I get to that, it will be checked for pinion angle, rebuilt, narrowed, perches  modified if necesary, and remounted with new springs. All I'm trying to do is get the engine and tranny as close as I possibly can to what I think will be it's final "resting spot", and with as much adjustment as possible designed into the mounts so I can fine tune it at the end when I can set it up properly.
My 3 degree rake...yeah, it will be pretty close...that is, if the cars I looked at that had a rake I liked were in fact at about 3 degrees as I was told.