Door Rust Issue

[Matt]

This is my first full resto, and I do not have much experience with body work.  I have been taking apart the inside and have found rust (all the way through) at the bottoms of some of the doors.  Is this something that can be fixed? Or, should I start looking for new doors?  To clarify the rust is at the bottom of the door on the inside and not on the door skin.

[RICH MUISE]

Absolutly it can be fixed, but, and there's always a "but', the first thing you need to do is find out exactly what you have. I would be surprised if the bottom of the door is rusted thru and there is no rust on the outer skin. You need to fill us in a bit on what shape your project is in, and what plans you have for the restoration. Are you going to do the bodywork yourself or farm it out...that, from a dollar standpoint will play into which is the best way to go. If it's just the door bottoms, it would probably be cheaper to repair, if it's also the outer skin and you need to farm it out, it would probably be cheaper to look for new doors.
With that said, finding out "where your project is" is going to involve alot of stripping of parts down to bare metal to see if repairs have already been previously made, or damaged areas hidded by a paint job, etc. Old repairs can be ok as is, or it could have had an badly done bondo filling which you can't see until the paint is stripped. Does it look like the car has ever been repainted?
There are alot of guys here with heavy experience in body work and restoration that will be more than happy to lead the way step by step.
My project was a first for panel replacement and the like, so I know what your gonna be facing, but believe me it's one of the most gratifying experiences you'll ever have.
The best way for us to help is to get more info from you as I mentioned....details about the current condition, it's history if you know it ( paint jobs, etc), and what you're looking for as a final result...is this going to be a nut and bolt full restoration with everything perfect as posible, or a just-need-it-to-look-presentable daily driver, etc.
Rich

[Limey57]

In my experience, the rust you can see is abput 50% of what is actually there!  As Rich has said, there probably is rust on the inside of the skin, you just haven't found it yet!  I would start by carefully drilling out the spot welds that attach the folded over part of the skin to the frame on the bottom adge and very carefully fold the folded part away so you can get a good look at the lower part of the skin (you've got to do this anyway to repair the bottom of the door).  If you can see any rust, prepare yourself for replacing the lower inch or two of the skin, if you don't, the rust will eventually break through the outer surface of the skin in the future and you'll kick yourself for not sorting it when you had chance.

To the best of my knowledge, door skins aren't available so you'll have to fold a repair section from the same gauge steel and let it in.  The problem with doing this is distortion in the skin when you weld in the repair section.  I get round this by taking a piece of 3/8" x 1/8" flat bar and CAREFULLY tack welding it INSIDE the door, running from front to back, 1/2" above where you're going to cut the skin.  This bar then acts as a stiffening brace so the skin retains its shape when you chop the bottom off.  I then put a 1/2" joggle (step) in the bottom of the remaining skin and weld the repair to this (again, going carefully to minimise distortion).

I used the above method on my previous car (1960 Impala) and it worked really well and I'll be using it on my Ranchero as well.  Unfortunately I haven't got any photos of doing this, but it worked well.

[JimNolan]

Matt,
   I had a frame off done on my car the first of 2009 and I was able to keep the trunk, roof, hood and doors because there wasn't any rust on them. Everything else seemed like it got replaced. This summer, I had rust popping through the bottom rear corner on each door. I couldn't believe it. I had cleaned up the inside of the doors and painted them with POR-15 myself. The new body guy just laughed at me for thinking I could prevented the rust. It was rust that had started between two sandwiched pieces of metal that you can't get to. He had to cut the door skin and add a piece of metal to each outside door skin. It was about 1 1/2" square. The new body guy I got was able to blend the paint and did a real good job.
   While you are working on the doors, do yourself a favor and see if you can figure out a way of preventing rust from starting between those sandwiched pieces of door skin and door frame. Jim

[Limey57]

While you are working on the doors, do yourself a favor and see if you can figure out a way of preventing rust from starting between those sandwiched pieces of door skin and door frame. Jim

After making sure all metal is sand-blast clean I coat all surfaces with epoxy primer then when the door is complete I put a bead of seam sealer/body caulking right along the joint on the inside of the door.  It isn't easy (messy though!!!!) but it helps to prevent a moisture trap, then follow it up (after painting) with a good body cavity wax.  Just got to make sure those drain holes stay clear.

[Zapato]

Body cavity wax ? believe I need some education here, have never heard of such a thing. Am sure not alone on this, tell me more.

Zap-

[Limey57]

Body cavity wax ? believe I need some education here, have never heard of such a thing. Am sure not alone on this, tell me more.

Zap-

Rust proofing fluid that is sprayed inside closed box sections, not sure what brands you guys have over there, but here we use stuff made by Bilt Hamber or Dinitrol.  It has excellent self-healing properties and can creep into spot welded seams by capliery action and also has rust killing properties.

[Ford Blue blood]

I have had good luck with "Ospho" (SP?) rust converter.  I wash the inside of the door with dish soap and a good hard spray from the hose.  Let it dry for a few days in the sun.  Turn the door upside down and hit the edge with a hard rubber mallet.  Go all the way around the dor, front, back and bottom.  If it is good and dry little bits of rust and dirt will fall out.  Keep tapping until no more comes out (tedious I know).  I then pour the Ospho into the door and rotate it side, bottom and side again.  It is runny enouph to get into all the nooks and crannies and will actually seap out the seam.  Let it dry a couple of days and then shoot primer in the seams.  Worked very well on the 66 Falcon doors and the 62 Bird doors.

[RICH MUISE]

Zap....It sounds like the stuff Limey is talking about is the same as what Pat Fleishman was talking about last month in the post Limey started titled"chemical dipping..."...on page 2 of general discusion. Pat brought me his gun and a bottle of the stuff (3M Rustfighter)to do my rockers...I talked about it in the last post on that thread.
Rich

[Limey57]

That's right Rich, its similar stuff, its sprayed into any inaccessible closed off area (inside rocker panels, rear quarters, door bottoms, chassis rails etc, etc).  It is a water repellant wax that sticks to any surface to prevent rust and also neutralises any existing rust as well as seeping into any open seam through capliery action. 

I've used the Dinitrol range in the past and it works really well, but I suspect that other (US) brands are very similar.  I also found it was easier to use if you let it stand in a bucket of hot water for a few minutes to make it thinner.

http://www.dinitrol.co.uk/classic_cars.aspx

[JimNolan]

Matt,
   Another thing I did to my 57 was pull the rubber plugs on each end of the rocker panels and use spray undercoat into the openings. They make a long rod with holes at the end to spray in all directions at the same time. I stuck it all the way back in both ends of the rocker panel, pulled the trigger on my undercoat gun and retracted the rod thereby coating the inside of the rockers. I've still got black undercoat on the driveway where I brought the car home, parked it outside and the excess dripped out the drain holes. I drove it for a couple days and then took the car to ZieBart. My car sees a lot of rain and I wanted to make sure rust didn't start in the rockers again. Jim

[Frankenstein57]

I get regular emails from KBS coatings, some of you read my posts about the stuff. They have a new "body cavity wax" spray product, thinking about giving it a try.  Mark

[Matt]

Thank you for that wealth of information.  I didn't expect so much great feedback.

To answer a few questions, I want this car to look presentable, but I will be using it as a daily driver.  I am planning on retaining the original 312, but I want to replace the 3-speed with an AOD.  I will be lowering the car with dropped spindles on the front and lowering springs in the back.  I want to convert the front brakes to disc and possibly the rear as well.

I want the body to be as straight as possible, rust free, with a decent paint job without clearing out my kid's college funds.  As the car sits right now there are small to large patches of rust all over the place.  The floor pans all need to be replaced as well as both rockers.  I need patch panels to the rear lower portion of both front fenders and to one of the rear quarter panels.  The tailgate has some rust, but it appears to have a terrible bondo job on it.  There is some rust to the frame of the hood, a few holes under the headlights, and of course the rust on the bottom side of the doors.

Needless to say I will never purchase another car of E-bay.

Right now I am just trying to figure out the best place to start.  I want to take the body off the frame to make the frame is cleaned, painted, and sealed and everything is done right.  Plus I want to replace all the body mounts.

My limited budget has left me basically just taking the car apart slowly.

[RICH MUISE]

Matt....good last post...that was one that will get you lots of valuable input as now we know what you're looking at, and what you want to be looking at.
A few more questions though that will help get you the right advise..you mentioned your bodyworking skills were light..any welding experience? "tailgate"..Ranchero or wagon (2dr. or 4 dr)? Since you mentioned you were on a limited budget, and with the areas you mentioned being rusted (most of them are typical), there are a few more areas you need to check. The reason you need to check these is to determine if the parts are available,and at what expense. I've advised guys in the past that if they can find a relatively rust free car, they will be thousands of dollars, and years of work ahead of the game. With that said, my first advise is going to be determining if this car is the right car, or if you're going to be ahead of the game selling it and spending a few thousand more on one that needs a whole lot less work. For an example, if your tailgate is not repairable, it'll be a tough to find item...they're out there, but getting harder to find a good one.
The areas you need to check are the inner rear wheel wells where they attach to the fenders, and the wheel well 'dogleg' at the inner bottom front. also, take a screwdriver and poke around the inner rocker panels where the floorboard supports attach. Poke around at the ends of the floor supports themselves as well. check the lower door posts where the rockers and posts are welded together, and the dogleg area of the door frame under the windshield ends. You should also check the frame itself while you're under it for weak areas.

[RICH MUISE]

Matt..a few more comments so you'll know where I'm coming from...Please do not take any of my above comments to be an attempt to discourage you in any way...quite the opposite. I was a few years into my project before I decided to check out the internet to see if there were any sites I could pick up info from (I'm an old guy..it wasn't second nature as it is now). Like you, it is my first restoration job. I had done some minor bodywork and painting 30 or 40 years ago, and usually kept my daily drivers repaired, but that was the extent of my automotive experience. Boy was I pleasantly surprised when I found this site and all the help I've gotten over the past few years. One of the main reasons I do so much posting is simply that I've been proud of what I've been able to accomplish as my first project and take the opportunity when I can to encourage others to do the same. I don't have the mechanical or electrical skills that some of the guys here have, but like them, I like to share what I have learned. With a little bit of confidence, and an "I can do this, I can do this" attitude, you can meet the challenge and gain a whole lot of pride in the process.
What part of the country are you from, btw?