Critique my restoration plan please!

[57 Ford Kustom]

The only advice that I can give is this, keep your wife involved! Ask her advice, even if you don't want it. Everyone here knows "if momma ain't happy, no one is happy" it will be a lot easier if she doesn't despise the 57'
Tim

[410ranchero]

The only advice that I can give is this, keep your wife involved! Ask her advice, even if you don't want it. Everyone here knows "if momma ain't happy, no one is happy" it will be a lot easier if she doesn't despise the 57'
Tim

Truer words have never been spoken. Lucky me I have the coolest wife in the world. We hunt together, road trip together(coast to coast 3x, Alaska to Alabama, Sturgis-rode not drove). She even rode the 700 or however miles up the Wisconsin to get the new floor from Mark, and visit Tom's 57 Ford museum. We used to drive around in this ranchero when we were dating in High school. She is usually out in the shop helping me work on it. Without a supporting wife; restoring an old car would end in divorce or an unfinished project for sure. Any rational person would look at my 57 and say its too far gone, and laugh when looking at the totals at the bottom of the build plan. I sent the build plan to her last night, her only comment was "wow, that's a long list". There has been a few times when going to the shop would have resulted in shots fired. But the last time I was home I took a week of vacation to do a house project and got to spend about two hours on my car, so I have a little shop time in the bank.

She is very artsy, so she will probably end up doing the pin striping work when its all done, and she has a good eye for color combos and such. So I leave that all to her. She's also pretty good at drywall, so I'm hoping that skill transfers to body filler and block sanding haha. I have to say she wasn't too excited when a second fresh air respirator showed up on the door. She though I had just got a spare. When I explained it was for her, I got a bit of a dirty look 

[57AGIN]

410Ranchero:

Looks like a well thought out plan.  I didn't have one when I started and I'm sure I spent a lot more than I would have if I'd been working off a plan.

I'm curious though, with a question.  What is the purpose of a Doug Nash 20% Underdrive?  I understand the 3:25 rear end gears which are good road traveling gears.  I'm guessing by using a C-6 which doesn't have an overdrive option and looking for around a 3:90 rear end gear ration you will have achieved your road traveling / occasional race final drive combo.  A number of guys out West use the Gear Vendors Overdrive behind their C-6 trannies to get a similar end result.  I haven't a clue which is more cost effective.  The Gear Vendors Overdrive goes for about $2500 and is known to be "bullet proof" behind high horsepower/high torque engines and gives the driver the option of 6 gears forward with the 3 speed C-6.  How does the Doug Nash compare?  Believe me, just a question and in no way a criticism.

Bob
57 AGIN

[410ranchero]

410Ranchero:

Looks like a well thought out plan.  I didn't have one when I started and I'm sure I spent a lot more than I would have if I'd been working off a plan.

I'm curious though, with a question.  What is the purpose of a Doug Nash 20% Underdrive?  I understand the 3:25 rear end gears which are good road traveling gears.  I'm guessing by using a C-6 which doesn't have an overdrive option and looking for around a 3:90 rear end gear ration you will have achieved your road traveling / occasional race final drive combo.  A number of guys out West use the Gear Vendors Overdrive behind their C-6 trannies to get a similar end result.  I haven't a clue which is more cost effective.  The Gear Vendors Overdrive goes for about $2500 and is known to be "bullet proof" behind high horsepower/high torque engines and gives the driver the option of 6 gears forward with the 3 speed C-6.  How does the Doug Nash compare?  Believe me, just a question and in no way a criticism.

Bob
57 AGIN

Ah the tricky piece  I have that for a couple reasons. First and foremost this car is a cruiser for the family, so the intent is no degradation to street manners. It has to be able to cruise traffic, down the freeway, and has to be simple enough that my kids can start it and drive it like I did. With that being said it also needs a dual personality. I do intend to run it at the track on Friday nights and it needs to be competitive.

If I had my way I would run a gear vendor OD/UD for a couple reasons, the gear splitting and shifting with power applied, and parts availability being the main reasons. The Doug Nash offers a similar option of OD/UD, but is of a different design. The DN is very simply a two speed manual transmission that is electrically shifted, the GV is a planetary type setup that is hydraulically shifted. As so, you cannot shift the DN with power applied. It works much the same as a electric OD behind a Y block, or two speed rear end if you have ever drove one of those. My intent is to keep it in direct for 90% of the time and cruise around town with the 3.25's. Or possibly switch to 3.08's for even better gas mileage and lower cruising RPM. I believe this will alleviate some of the wear and tear on the UD unit itself, and keep the temps lower(It really will only be in UD at the track). The DN is hard to find parts for these days.  If I was to use a OD I would have to swap my rear end gears, where as with a UD I can run the gears I have around the house(changing my 3.25 to 4.10/3.08 to 3.89 which gives me 5,800 rpm at my target MPH with a SWAG used for converter slip). Also when I was searching, I found a good deal on this U/D-$500, where as a comparable DN OD would be around $1000-1200. I attribute this more to people wanting an O/D and not understanding how to effectively use an U/D. But maybe I'm missing something, time will tell.

You are correct on the price of a new GV o/d, I think the unit itself is about $2500, but then you need an adapter and controller(not 100% sure). I think the actual price once you are ready to bolt in is closer to 3k. I got this little unit for $500 bucks ready to bolt on. This was designed for use in motorhomes, to help them get up to speed faster. It doesn't have a HP rating, rather it is rated at 35,000 GCVW. From reading on-line they are rather bullet proof. They seem to rather popular with Power stroke guys in big trucks. If it will survive that there is no way I will break it. My car should be around 3450lbs and 600ft/lb on the bottle. As long as I don't get into serious wheel hop I should be fine.

Of course there is no free lunch. While this will give me the same effect as running 3.89 with an O/D there are some trade offs. Namely the TQ output from the transmission is higher than the GV setup would be, to an almost serious level. I will have to swap the yoke on the 9in to a 1350 style as well as the yoke on the UD its self(it may already have one). The TQ applied to the driveshaft on the bottle will be approaching 2,000ft/lbs, just over the limit of a 1330 u-joint(I think I have 1310's now). Not a real big deal but something that needs addressed.

Other than that, everyone runs a GV. If I had a GV on my list we wouldn't have anything to chat about. The DN is just different, like me  I think its closer to the year group I'm looking at style wise, vs. a nice new shiny GV(not that you will ever see it).

[Zapato]

You lost me on the door latches. Mine must be a different style as I don't have a bear claw(or what I think is a bear claw) door latch. Mine are a little wheel in a housing on the end of the door. They appear to be in decent shape, I think they just need some lube and maybe a bushing or two.

Sometimes am clear as mud. You don't have bear claws. You have stockers and if they're worn out as many are after 50 plus years of service upgrade to newer stuff. Good old stuff is rare and rare means expensive. Bear claws are available everywhere and cheapest out of any late model being parted out.  If you can get yours to work right go for it.

Zap-

[410ranchero]

Sometimes am clear as mud. You don't have bear claws. You have stockers and if they're worn out as many are after 50 plus years of service upgrade to newer stuff. Good old stuff is rare and rare means expensive. Bear claws are available everywhere and cheapest out of any late model being parted out.  If you can get yours to work right go for it.

Zap-

Ah I got ya. If my neat-o little wheels are junk I'd have to swap in studs and cut the doors for bear claws. Is this commonly done? Is there a guide or pictures on the finished product?

[RICH MUISE]

When I started mine,I had no other plans other than to "fix 'er up". As I got further into it, and started going to car shows, I finally figured out what really flipped my switch and went for it. I've kinda figured out what I wanted as I went along, and being a custom, the things I wasted money on were more from a lack of experience, and not having a whole lot of references to go by, so therefore alot of trial and error. That said, if I had it to do over again, there are a few things I would have done differently but I'll never go back and change. There also are a few things on my list of things to change after the car is finished...I just don't want to go back and spend money and time on things that are done and I can live with until everything else is done. The things I wished I had done differently that won't be changed: I would have tubed the back wheelwells, and I would have changed the bottom front shape of the rear fender wheel openings to give more tire room. The latter is an easy, but very subtle change that makes a difference. The idea is to eliminate how the front of the rear wheel opening curves back towards the rear. It's a matter of just making a pie cut in front of the wheelwell so the flare can be hammered/moved to an verticle configuration and welded. This of course eliminates being able to use oem shapped fender skirts.
The other thing I wished I had done was to weld the firewall closed at the large steering column hole. This of course won't work for steering boxes, like the '57 oem, that has to come out thru the dash.
As far as paint color..make yourself happy if you're keeping the car. Too many people aren't fans of the flat paint (me included) to paint it that way if you're trying to sell it, or unless your trying to hide bad body work. JMHO
As far as purists..same as I said about the paint..make yourself happy, it's not their car. We actually don't have a ton of purists on this forum, but it doesn't matter anyway...we all get along without a whole lot of negativity. Heck, what I'm doing to my car makes the purists cringe a whole lot more than what your doing to yours.
Rich

[hotroddonnie]

 Like I said before, I wish I was on this site 4 years ago when I started my build, I'd be on post 2500 in questions alone.

[RICH MUISE]

That's how my post count got up there, and now that I've started the drivetrain, the questions I've already asked are probably the tip of the iceburg.

[410ranchero]

Thanks rich, alot of good stuff in there.

I dont have the talent to do the body mods and have them come out right so I'm keeping it simple. I think I can still get a 28x10 cheater slick in there, and they would look cool peaking out from under a fender skirt. Look even better with smoke rolling out from under them 

I plan on cleaning up the firewall and smoothing it as much as I can. If you close up the big firewall hole for the column, where would the steering shaft come out? You kinda lost me there.

The paint isnt going to be flat black, more of semi-gloss/satin, 50's style single stage look. The BC/CC on a 50's car looks very odd to me, unless its a resto mod. Its just too shiney as odd as that sounds. Let me see if I can find an appropriate representaion of what I'm after.

[RICH MUISE]

Firewall opening...for guys who just need a shaft to go thru, I would close it up, and then determine where the much smaller hole needed to be.
That would make it easier to clean up the firewall, and construct or just add, a firewall support bearing. Might be easier to determine where that small hole needed to be while it was still a big hole..then you could just make a template to transfer that location to the solid plate. I went thru alot of work to add a support bearing, and make a cover for that opening...could have been just a neat l rubber grommet type seal.
LOL..at least a dozen guys across the country are about to say to themselves in unison" oh, hell, we got to look at that again"
Almost forgot the most important suggestion for your detailed plan. The general rule of thumb for well thought out plans: after you get your time and money estimates together..double them and hope you make that mark. Not trying to discourage you by any means, but, like your $50. sandpaper estimate...I  think a conservative guess on what I spent is probably 4-500; way more if you count wire brushes, cutoff wheels, grinding wheels and flap discs,sanding sponges, skotchbrite, etc etc. I used the self stick rolls for my sanding boards..3 or 4 grit sizes...about 45. a box, and that's just the dry sanding stuff.
Admitedly, my car was 100% mechanically stripped inside and out, all components, and finished inside and out. Also my paint was basecoat/clearcoat...tons more sanding and buffing supplies there.
LOL...I'm looking at this pic I posted, and my avatar...sure doesn't look like they are the same car.

[410ranchero]

Nothing wrong with any of the cars below, all are very well done and I would love to own any of them. This is purely for a comparison to what I am trying to do gloss wise on paint.

Too flat:

Too shiney:

Just right


Flaked roof similar to this(chalky black primer and green wheels=yuk). I might do the B pillar in the Gold, or flake down the backside, and do the small inset next to the window in the gold. There is alot of options floating here. It will all be black until I get it on the road. These steps are cool things after everything else is done.



Actually this is almost exactley what I am going for.Stance is right where I want it. Swap on on regular 57 trim. Get rid of the exhaust behind the axle. Add a glimpse of white headers in the front wheel well. Add fender skirts. Something about running a mid 11 with cheater slicks behind fender skirts makes my dinky tingle The black on this car has just the right amount of shine, not the mile deep modern gloss. A dark red flake roof for some bling and gloss black wheels to make the WWW pop.


In digging up an example of a black with the standard Gold Valve cover treatment I came across this beauty. Now you guys have me thinking.... This would look killer with the white headers and dual quads on top

Aluminum intake, dual quads and chrome filler tube and chrome baldy valve covers with little 410 birds would look killer


And here is the picture I was searching for. I dont have aluminum heads so they would be black.


Funny I was talking to Mark when I saw his 58 about putting 58 trim on mine as I think it has a little more style(I really like the 59 on the top of the fin). The wife and I also discussed the 500 style gold trim, but removing the backing and painting a color behind it. Then I find this, kind of a combo of the two ideas. Really does a nice job of breaking up the huge slab of black

[410ranchero]

Almost forgot the most important suggestion for your detailed plan. The general rule of thumb for well thought out plans: after you get your time and money estimates together..double them and hope you make that mark. Not trying to discourage you by any means, but, like your $50. sandpaper estimate...I  think a conservative guess on what I spent is probably 4-500; way more if you count wire brushes, cutoff wheels, grinding wheels and flap discs,sanding sponges, skotchbrite, etc etc. I used the self stick rolls for my sanding boards..3 or 4 grit sizes...about 45. a box, and that's just the dry sanding stuff.
Admitedly, my car was 100% mechanically stripped inside and out, all components, and finished inside and out. Also my paint was basecoat/clearcoat...tons more sanding and buffing supplies there.
LOL...I'm looking at this pic I posted, and my avatar...sure doesn't look like they are the same car.

That pic explains it perfectly. Did you use a stock 57 column? If so what was the process for shortening it and resplining or attaching the link for the rack?

The $50 dollars was simply for the original stripping of the car, there is more money allotted for subsequent sanding later down the page, about $400 all told. The paint is very old single stage, flaking in most places, and I'm not stripping much below the trim line as it is all getting replaced with new bare sheet metal. I stripped on quarter using about 5, 6 inch disks. Took it bare metal and even took out some mud. Only took about an hour. I do have a colmun that is cost+10% to account for some overages. I have this all in excel and plan on adding up the receipts at the end of each phase to see how I am doing on budget. I can adjust subsequent phases to remain on target, or slow down and save more money before moving forward. That will  definitely be a challenge to stay on budget though. If I stay within 25% over I would call that a success for sure, but the 50% number is probably more realistic by time its all done. I don't have dyno tuning on there for one thing...

[RICH MUISE]

No..I used a '97 Mustang column/wheel...see avatar. Won't work on a traditional interior. I did a lengthy thread on the rack install...got alot of help from Bill and Gary...starts on page 2 of this thread: http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=518.15

[57AGIN]

410Ranchero:

Your explanation of the Doug Nash Underdrive vs. the Gear Vendors Overdrive was very clear and well thought out.  That is one of the things I love about this site, I'm learning something new just about every day.

I believe the Ranchero and the Custom 300's share the same frame and side panel issues.  So if you are interested in running a good gripping tire I have no fitment issues running a Mickey Thompson E/T Street Radial slick using a 4.5" back spaced Weld Drag Star rim.  I've only trimmed a bit of sheet metal away from the inner lip on the rear fender and have good clearance on the fender side and spring side.  I'm not sure if you could run a fender skirt with the inner lip trimmed, but with the slicks a set of 3:70 gears and a 4,000 rpm dump of the clutch, I still bogged on the starting line.  I'll work with tire pressure and launch RPM to make a clean get away with no bogging in the future. LOL

I only have a couple of photos showing my rear tire clearance, both were taken before the recent re-painting of the car.  The first shows the clearances with my daily run set-up of Cragar S/S rims 4.5" back space and BF Goodrich T/A Radials.  The second shows the 57 on the trailer getting ready to go to a Fun Ford Weekend event in Fontana, CA. This shows the M/T ET Street Radials mounted on the Weld Racing Drag Star rims.  I'm going to have to get off my duff and mount up the drag tires and get some decent photos.  Well maybe next year (lol).

Bob
57 AGIN