Looking for Frame Rebuild Advice

[Ford Blue blood]

Now to further confuse things...........are the '58 Ford Upper Control Arms the exact same Control arm as used on short wheel base '58 Edsels? I ask, as the Edsel National Meet will be in Louisville next week, and I can make a phone call or two and have a pair brought to their swap meet.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
John
Thsnks
John

YES, the junior series Edsel chassis (Ranger & Pacer) were in essence 57/58 Ford chassis.

[KYBlueOval]

Thanks Blue Blood!. I've been researching it and came to the same conclusion, and now I have confirmation. I can move forward now.
Thank you
John

[SkylinerRon]

57-64 Upper arms are the same, 58-60 small Edsels too.
Dial in more positive caster if you are using radials and power steering.
I wouldn't bother changing the front springs unless they are sagging.
Be sure to change the pads under the tops of the springs anyway.

The Carpenter body mounts should fit most of the mount locations as the
front half of the Customs is the same as the Ranchero.
The Retract&Convert mounts are very different.

Goodluck,

Ron.

[KYBlueOval]

Thanks for the reply / information. I was just about to post a question on the Carpenter Kit and its application to Rancheros. Might still do it to find out what solutions others have come up with for the back end mounts.
Thank you!
John

[KYBlueOval]

John, you are a brave man for asking this question... everybody has an opinion and you will hear a lot of em. Here is mine... stock springs in the front (since you have dropped spindles), station wagon (stock) springs in the rear. Front sway bar from Quickor Garage... it mounts like a 1959 stock bar and will not give you wheel/tire clearance issues. Rear bar from Concours Parts, it mounts above the axle. Front shocks...Bilstein, expensive but worth the money. Rear shocks...I have Gabriel Highjackers air shocks for adjusting the rake. I would use urethane bushings for the lower control arms and '58/'59 bushings for the uppers. Borgeson Power steering... (I think it is a better match for the suspension geometry than rack and pinion). Ball joints...dunno just make sure they are domestic. I might consider narrowing the rear end 1 1/2" inch for tire clearance.

In my opinion these mods will greatly improve the original performance and function without re-engineering the whole suspension. If money were no object I would buy a new custom frame from Fatman or Art Morrison. Good luck with sorting out all the advice I am sure you will get.

Can you or anyone else, give me some information on where I  can source the urethane bushings for use in the lower control arms. I've run into nothing but dead ends in trying to find a vendor.
Is there a close fit that can be cut down on a lathe? I would appreciate any help.
thanks
John

[lalessi1]

Here is a link to a company that makes universal urethane bushing sets in numerous sizes.

http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/universal-link-flange-type-bushings.asp

[KYBlueOval]

Here is a link to a company that makes universal urethane bushing sets in numerous sizes.

http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/universal-link-flange-type-bushings.asp

Went to the website and then spoke to their customer service dept. I'm confident I can get what I want, BUT, I need the dimensions of the stock lower control arm bushings. Anyone out there with this double secret information?
I also found a site that gives the dimensions of Moog Bushings, but I need a Moog Part # for the lower control arm bushing in order to get the information I want. Anyone have an old Moog #? It just might be listed.
Thanks

[lalessi1]

I think the part number is MOOG K8068, I found that on eBay. I looked at the MOOG dimensional pdf and it is listed. I would measure the control arm before I machined anything.

[KYBlueOval]

Thanks. I'm getting closer to the information I need.  Where do I find this Moog dimensional pdf? Sounds like what I need.
And yes I'll verify the size of the Control Arm opening very shortly, before I purchase or start trimming a bushing to fit.
John

[RICH MUISE]

You guys lost me on what you're trying to do here. The oem control arm bushings are not just rubber, they are steel inner sleeve and a steel outer sleeve with a middle core of rubber moulded in. How are you going to replace that with urathane? I guess I don't understand what you are machining or trimming..it would seem to me they either make a replacement control arm bushing designed as original except urathane, or they don't.?
Also, jfyi, The steel outer sleeve with the flange has raised bosses on the outer diameter at a specific distance from the flange to act as a stop when pressing in the bushings. This locates the control arm in the correct position.

[KYBlueOval]

You guys lost me on what you're trying to do here. The oem control arm bushings are not just rubber, they are steel inner sleeve and a steel outer sleeve with a middle core of rubber moulded in. How are you going to replace that with urathane? I guess I don't understand what you are machining or trimming..it would seem to me they either make a replacement control arm bushing designed as original except urathane, or they don't.?
Also, jfyi, The steel outer sleeve with the flange has raised bosses on the outer diameter at a specific distance from the flange to act as a stop when pressing in the bushings. This locates the control arm in the correct position.

Rich........when I made the original post, I asked for advise on what parts to use in rebuilding the front end. lalessi1 replied , suggesting that among other things, that I use urethane bushings in the lower control arms and the '58/'59 style upper control arms shafts/ bushings.
To date , I've not found anyone that has this  lower control arm bushing already made up in urethane and ready to go. Thus the hunt for a source. As to the pros or cons of using a urethane bushing...........my limited experience is with my '63 Avanti. I completely redid the front suspension this past winter and installed Delrin bushings, in both the upper and lower A frames. The plus side of the story is, they will not crack and deteriorate over time..........so I'm told. I found that as a big plus as I've changed these A frame bushings a couple of times in the 43 years I've owned this car, and I hate doing it.The con side of using these is that you get a harsher feeling as the Delrin does not absorb like the original bushing, but rather, passes the road feel on. So far, I'm pleased with the Delrin. The actual Delrin bushings are the same size and have the same flanges as the original bushings for my Avanti. They are solid Delrin. No metal. A grade 8 or 10 bolt with a large washer secures it. The only noticeable difference is that each bushing has a zerk. And when installing these bushings in the A frame one must know in advance exactly where you want that zerk, so you can get a grease gun on it later. I marked my A frames before I took them to have the bushings pressed in.
Rich, did that answer your question............I hope so.

[RICH MUISE]

Well, sort of...
I guess you're saying you're going to put in bushings that have no metal sleeves? I'm not sure how that'll work.... May be fine, but just a gut feeling would make me be hesitant about it. Does Lynn have a source for these bushings he recommended using? I realize the advantages of delrin over rubber...just not sure about the delrin over rubber encased in steel. I'm also aware that the quality of rubber nowadays with cheap sourcing is probably not as good as the stuff that was put on our cars 50+ years ago, and for most cars stood up for many many years.

[KYBlueOval]

Well, sort of...
I guess you're saying you're going to put in bushings that have no metal sleeves? I'm not sure how that'll work.... May be fine, but just a gut feeling would make me be hesitant about it. Does Lynn have a source for these bushings he recommended using? I realize the advantages of delrin over rubber...just not sure about the delrin over rubber encased in steel. I'm also aware that the quality of rubber nowadays with cheap sourcing is probably not as good as the stuff that was put on our cars 50+ years ago, and for most cars stood up for many many years.

Rich, you are correct........bushings without metal sleeves.
As to Lynn having a source , yes he gave me a name, and I've been in contact with them. They do not have an exact fit replacement. To get something I can cut down on a lathe, I need the dimensions of the original style bushing, so I can get close and trim it.Or I can wait till I remove the lower control arm and do the measuring.
BTW, i found a number for the Moog Tech Line  800 325 8886. They have no information for this bushing.
I'll keep searching.
John

[lalessi1]

 Here is the Moog pdf with the dimensions I was referring to. I thought you had that, sorry. I have used Delrin bushings in the past to replace the rubber pressed in type before on a Datsun, they worked quite well. I haven't put them in my Ford as of yet but I am planning on doing that.

http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Rubber%20Bushings%20by%20Dimension.pdf


Also rk57Meteor has machined some he bought from Engineering Suspension Tech according to his post in the older thread I referred you to earlier.

[KYBlueOval]

Here is the Moog pdf with the dimensions I was referring to. I thought you had that, sorry. I have used Delrin bushings in the past to replace the rubber pressed in type before on a Datsun, they worked quite well. I haven't put them in my Ford as of yet but I am planning on doing that.

http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Rubber%20Bushings%20by%20Dimension.pdf


Also rk57Meteor has machined some he bought from Engineering Suspension Tech according to his post in the older thread I referred you to earlier.

Well you did give me that site and I looked it up , but I was looking only at the Moog Part Numbers and not the Kit Numbers. Now I see it.
When I ordered the body to frame kit from Concourse, I ordered one lower control arm bushing. With the actual bushing in hand and the dimensions from that chart I should be able to get something I can cut down to fit. I'll go back and find the reference to   rk57Meteor.
Thanks
Lynn