sagging doors

[Limey57]

One of my personal restoration "rules" is to get the doors fitting perfectly before replacing any metalwork, in the case of my Ranchero I gave up at the start as the fit was just SO bad.  There is a belief that cars of the 50's were built like tanks and while the gauge of the steel used was certainly way thicker than anything used today, the actual number of strengthening panels within the body assembly is a lot less so it only takes a bit of rust and sagging body mount rubbers to let everything twist & move.

Take a modern car (I know, I know.......) and if you stripped it down it would have three rocker panels (inner, outer and a central strengthening membrane) along with channels pressed into other panels to provide much needed strength.  Any stressed areas (suspension mountings and the like) have several panels and fillet pieces welded together to give a light yet strong structure (and plenty of rust traps).  With the 57 Fords there is just a simple inner & outer rocker and the floor braces terminate under the floor rather than being one continuous run from inner rocker right through to the opposite inner rocker.

It wasn't just Ford, look at the structure of any older car and they really were very simple structures.  In 1958, Chevrolet actually used cast iron to replace the rubber body mounts on police cars to stiffen them up!

[Ford Blue blood]

I agree with Gary, if you can do all the sheet metal work with the car in it's original configuration.  That is still on the frame, doors aligned and fenders in place (unless you have bottom of the door hinge panel repairs).

I had inner and outer rocker work from front to rear on the left side and about half way back the door opening on the right side.  The doors stayed in place and were opened and closed every step of the way, rusty cut out, check door fit, new spotted in, check door fit, weld new in.  Same happened with the toe board and floor pan work on both sides.  Doors still fit!

I believe in Allen's case he needs to get the structure right before fitting the doors.  The inner rocker ties the body mounts, cowl, toe boards, floor pans, and the floor braces together.  The outer rocker I believe provides more "finish appearance" then structure to the body and can be "adjusted" for fit after all else is finished.

[SkylinerRon]

Guess i'm lucky having Retracts w/the big X-frame and solid mounts.
Door gaps only open up about 1/8th" when the heavy top is down.
Even so i still weld crossbraces in the door openings and across the body when
doing any metal replacements.
We should try to put together some accurate dimentions for 57's for future reference.

Ron.

[Ford Blue blood]

Ron do you think that would even be possible give the variances in the cars from factory to factory?  Did each site stamp their own parts or were they shipped to each assembly plant?  I have not "swapped" parts (fenders/doors/trunk lids) other then hoods between cars that are here and/or have come through here so I can't say how the fit would be.  I know there are differences with small trim and fastener items and the location of some of the add on item but do not know about the sheet metal.

Now, having said that, I think that is a great idea.  I unfortunately do not have an original here so I can not start.  My Retractable had been hit on the drivers side in the past and requires work and the Ranchero has had so much structure (pans/inner rockers/toe boards/floor pans/body mount and brace) replaced not sure it would be a good candidate for reference.

[Limey57]

Now, having said that, I think that is a great idea.  I unfortunately do not have an original here so I can not start.  My Retractable had been hit on the drivers side in the past and requires work and the Ranchero has had so much structure (pans/inner rockers/toe boards/floor pans/body mount and brace) replaced not sure it would be a good candidate for reference.

I agree, a great idea but it's always best to take dimensions from an original un-restored car.  Mine didn't need as much metal work as yours but the fit of the doors suggested that something had moved out of line at some point.

[SkylinerRon]

I'm sure they had jigs for the mounting holes and the major assemblies.
You have to have starting points for everything in mass production, not enough time
to hand fit every piece.
Think I remember Ford having at least one dedicated stamping plant. I will find out for sure.
There are frame diagrams out there, finding body reference points will be harder.

I have swapped a lot of 57 sheetmetal over the years. Once swapped the front clip and doors off a convertable
to a retract because the parts had great black paint and I only had to paint the back half to match.
Small problem convertable vent window assemblies are different than retracts so I had to
change them also.

57's are not the hardest at all. The mounting points are slotted to adjust for tolarance stack and
slight alignment issues. It takes a lot of "feel" to get sheet metal right, the fact is some people have it
most don't. Years of experence can make a huge difference in the product.
Find an old fart to do your body work!

Goodluck,

Ron.

[SkylinerRon]

Ford stamping plants were at Buffalo,Chicago,Cleveland and Dearborn of course.

Ron.

[Allen]

I see that I am not alone with the door problem. My rockers are in good shape, so, no need to replace. If I leave the donut bolts in place under the back seat and try bending the rockers by a jacking on the front of the body which will raise the door jam. Or I cut the rocker on the the door latch end and then shim things up to fit. I need to replace the front and rear outer quarter panels on the passenger side only, which may cause problems if I try bending the rocker and then cut out the quarter panel things may move.

[SkylinerRon]

I'm having a hard time visualizing what you have to work with.
As a general rule you don't unbolt the frame until each patch panel is welded in, doing only
one panel at a time. Even then it is a good idea to weld in some temporary cross bracing (1x1 square tube works well)
to hold everything in place until your finished.
I'd take some measurements from a known car and weld up some bracing before you go any further.
BTW; What body style are you working on ?

Ron.

[SkylinerRon]

Oops, just noticed it's a 2 dr ht. Find a straight car and measure across the door openings at the top and diagonally across for
square. Do the same for the door opening area. Get the measurements right and weld in some cross bracing.
This should get you started.

Goodluck,

Ron.

[Allen]

Thanks for the input guys, I get my sheet metal in a few days and will take your advice and let you know how I do.