REALLY REALLY bad day today.

[RICH MUISE]

What I've got so far.......after filling the fluids, I took it out for 15 minutes to get it up to temp. Was about 180ish when I pulled in the driveway, left it running.I popped the radiator cap and the coolant was moving, although not as much as I expected. I took a reading of the coolant at that time, but I think it was just starting to mix with the radiator coolant, so only got about 135* read with the IF. within 10 minutes the gauge was reading 220 (25 hotter than my normal). But seemed to level off there. The fan never came on. (I had  put the cap back on because it was starting to geyser). While the gauge was reading 220, I got an identical reading on the outside of the metal coolant pipe, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is accurate. I did flip on the A/C for 5 minutes or so, and the temp started dropping down to about 210 with the fan on.

Odd (to me).....the thermostat housing is in line with the lower radiator outlet. I guess it doesn't matter where you open the flow, just seems odd.
I'm not convinced the thermostat is opening all the way, so that's on my list of things to replace. As Jim suggested, I'll get one from Ford.
Next is chasing down wires and checking continuity, fuses, etc etc.. The front single pole temp. sensor wire is not one that has the Ron Francis labelling, it must be one that I added with Vintage Air instructions.

My transmission did not show any signs of leakage, but I'm not really too hopeful it fixed itself.
I may have misspoke about that 2nd temp sensor being 2 prong.

[fdlrc]

Very interesting that the tranny didn't leak. Could it be that it isn't the seal? Is there a place where it could spit out fluid if it was a tad over-filled, and then got warm or hot?

[lalessi1]

What I've got so far.......after filling the fluids, I took it out for 15 minutes to get it up to temp. Was about 180ish when I pulled in the driveway, left it running.I popped the radiator cap and the coolant was moving, although not as much as I expected. I took a reading of the coolant at that time, but I think it was just starting to mix with the radiator coolant, so only got about 135* read with the IF. within 10 minutes the gauge was reading 220 (25 hotter than my normal). But seemed to level off there. The fan never came on. (I had  put the cap back on because it was starting to geyser). While the gauge was reading 220, I got an identical reading on the outside of the metal coolant pipe, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is accurate. I did flip on the A/C for 5 minutes or so, and the temp started dropping down to about 210 with the fan on.

Odd (to me).....the thermostat housing is in line with the lower radiator outlet. I guess it doesn't matter where you open the flow, just seems odd.
I'm not convinced the thermostat is opening all the way, so that's on my list of things to replace. As Jim suggested, I'll get one from Ford.
Next is chasing down wires and checking continuity, fuses, etc etc.. The front single pole temp. sensor wire is not one that has the Ron Francis labelling, it must be one that I added with Vintage Air instructions.

My transmission did not show any signs of leakage, but I'm not really too hopeful it fixed itself.
I may have misspoke about that 2nd temp sensor being 2 prong.

Have faith Rich, stuff seems to fix itself all the time in "Lynnland"!

[RICH MUISE]

Les, I'm going to drive it some more tonight (weekly meet on 6th st/old 66), we'll see about the tranny. Overfill is posible, I do have that new Lokar dipstick. I did compare the new dipstick to the old as far as how far it protruded into the pan, and they were very close to the same. When I refilled it, I did go back to almost where I topped it off before, so if it was an overfill, I did it again.
Some more info on the fan situation. The front single pole sensor is wired to the trinary switch. I did do another continuity check from the sensor to the block and it does have continuity. Tomorrow I'll set up a continuity checker with probes so I can make sure there's no breaks in the wire. A new sensor is probably in order, one of the few I haven't replaced (I don't think). LOL, I think occasionally I'm replacing stuff I replaced when I built the car. Gotta get organized.
The rear connector is also a single wire, and the wire from it is marked "sensor ground" and goes to the 60 amp relay for the fan. Can't quite get that wrapped around my head....how the only wire coming off the sensor is a ground wire?? Maybe I need to take a second look. I know where that leads to is the 2 sensors located under the intake manifold, and I know those had two leads each........not sure offhand what happened to the rest of the wires.....maybe I missed connecting something, more likely I did connect them and can't see it now. So many wires stuffed in back there.  Anyway, it sure helps to talk this stuff out.
Monday I think I'll call Ron Francis and find out if there is anything relay or fuse wise that is seperate in regards to the A/C request and engine temp request. I checked the smaller fuses on the chassis wiring panel, and the 60 amp job in the relay harness.
What are your opinions on wiring the fan to be always on / thru a switch? My friend here doesn't like that idea..says no need to be always on, and if you switch it, you could forget to turn it on. It does draw 60 amps, so I can sure understand the thinking behind not having it on all the time.
So, in a nutshell, so far I'm planning on replacing the thermostat and the front temp sensor, and I am looking for other stuff that may need replacing while the coolant is drained.

[RICH MUISE]

Another thought/question.......the transmission cooling lines that I replaced. I have the Auto City Classic radiator with the cooling tank for the tranny. Are there specific  in and outs? Can they be installed backwards at the radiator? I assumed it made no difference, but.............

[hiball3985]

Regarding the geyser, thats a sign of air still trapped in the system which will cause hot spots and heating. The thermostat position is baffling to me unless this is a reverse flow system? This new modern stuff makes me crazy 

[RICH MUISE]

hmmmmm.just dumped a reply to that. I've been looking at this cooling system for 5 years now trying to figure it out. Reverse flow? Don't have a clue. As previously mentioned, my thoughts on the thermostat location were simply...does it matter where in the loop you close the circulation off? I wouldn't think so. I would think closing the coolant off before the radiator would have the same result as closing it off from leaving the radiator. I did read somewhere in the Lincoln shop manual that the system is designed to never close the flow entirely.
There is an air bleed cap on the coolant pipes that I had open when I filled 'er up, but maybe I didn't keep it open long enough, or go back and reopen after filling and running. I'll try and bleed it again. Of course that doesn't fix the no-fan issue, but doesn't help.
I'd sure like to see a flow diagram on how coolant moves through the system.

[fdlrc]

I have a dual fan controlled by Fitech fuel injection. I have it set for one fan to come on at 180, second fan at 190. It is also wired to Vintage Air Gen IV and it's trinary switch.

[Ford Blue blood]

Rich, the cooler lines in the radiator don't care which is in or out.  That "cooler" is just a tube that loops once maybe twice in the lower tank.

Ford typically in your electronic system outputs grounds to various components needed to make the engine happy.  Example, the injectors had 5V on them at "key on run" and the computer sends a ground to it to let gas in  the appropriate cylinder

Not having all the air out of the system can give a bunch of weird indications.  The temp sensors for the computer do not like air.  Might be the whole problem with the cooling system.

If you have access to a lift put the car up on it with the engine running and the transmission in low and look for the leak.  Could be as suggested coming out of an unexpected place.

[oldave57]

Rich,

It sounds like you are getting really close to solving your startup issues (the transmission drying up would sure be a nice surprise).  The cooling fan circuit is typically controlled by a single relay that has multiple connections to run its control circuit.  The relay control circuit has a positive terminal that is typically powered only when the ignition is on, and a ground terminal that can connect to several switches (in this case, your trinary switch for the AC head pressure, and the two engine temp switches).  Once any of those switches closes, the connection is made to ground and the relay is activated, closing the high amperage circuit to drive the fan.  The high amperage circuit is "always hot", typically protected by a circuit breaker.

We know that your relay is wired correctly and works because it comes on when you run the AC.  One easy check for your engine wiring to the relay (to be sure that the ground circuit of the relay control is complete when the temp switches close) is to just pull the wire off one of the temp switches and ground it to the engine block.  It should start the fan by closing the circuit to the relay control ground.  You should be able to do this with just the key in the on position and engine not running.  It might be one way to troubleshoot the wiring between the engine and cooling fan relay.

Good Luck,
Dave

[RICH MUISE]

Bill. I thought that was the case with the tranny cooler, but just eliminating possibilities. Didn't realize the senders were just providing a ground, so that is really really  helpful info. Awesome info from both of you, Bill and Dave. Thanks. That's why we come here.
Les's statement about a possible transmission overfill might be exactly what happened. I'm going to find out from my transmission shop where it would leak from if it was an overfill. After 3 short trips yesterday and no visible tranny leakage, I took it out this morning for a 60 mile trip around the loop. I stopped about every 15 minutes to check, and never saw a drop coming from the inspection plate area.! Fan-freaking-tastic. I checked the fluid level on the dipstick several times and when I got home, and it was still where it was before I left. Also, it was only in the 70's, but the car never got past 195, so I'm pretty sure that air lock was the initial cause of the heating -up. Of course that doesn't fix the fan not coming on.
Dave, I thought I remembered having  a circuit breaker on my little A/C relay panel, but I actually have a 60 AMP fuse. Checked it yesterday.

So...I know thinking is dangerous, but I was not thinking along the lines of the trinary switch handling BOTH requests, which it obviously must because one of the temperature senders is wired directly to the trinary. Following that idea, I think that's telling me THAT sender/wire/connection would be the faulty one if there is a faulty one. No need for the schematics to try and figure out which sender was wired to what. I already knew, just wasn't seeing it.
OK.my brain wanders too much. There I was assuming the trinary switch handled the A/C request, when it may be only handling the engine temp request. When required when the A/C is on, it may be simply a function of the A/C on/off switch.

[djfordmanjack]

Gotta like it when odd stuff starts repairing itself.

[oldave57]

Rich,

I think the wire from one of the engine temp  switches to the trinary switch is really just a convenient way to route the wiring to the relay ground terminal.  All of the wires to the relay ground terminal would essentially be on the same circuit and if any one of the switches closes, it would provide the path to ground for the relay to close.

The trinary switch for the AC head pressure is a pressure switch and not really related to engine temperature.  The wire from the engine temp switch is just connected at the terminal for the trinary switch to provide a path to ground at the engine block if the temp switch closes.  If the AC head pressures go up (as they do when you turn on the AC and the cooling fan is not running), then the trinary switch closes at a preset pressure and your relay sees a ground connection and closes.  The two switches are really not working together, they just share a common wire from the trinary switch to the relay ground.

The wiring for these can be confusing but it sure seems like there is a problem between your temp switches and a ground connection to complete the circuit for the relay.  Does your engine block have a ground wire connected directly to the battery (like the original Y-Blocks)?  It would be interesting to get a continuity check between the engine block and the negative battery terminal just for a quick check.

Good luck (getting really close now)
Dave

[RICH MUISE]

I should have known it wouldn't be that simple, lol..
It does,I've got the Ron Francis #1 battery cable set. The battery ground is connected to the block at one of the bellhousing bolts really close to the starter I'll double check it though. I've got one from engine to frame and body to frame. Almost all my car is wired as though it was a fiberglass car...wired grounds on most electrical stuff.
I also need to ground one sender wire to the block as you sugested to see if that turns the fan on with key on.

[gasman826]

The transmission vent is a little tin mushroom shaped cap on the upper rear of the main case just in front of the tail housing joint.  If over filled or over heated, oil blows out and would appear in the cross member area and back.  Over fill can also push oil out the fill/dipstick tube.  Over heating the engine will also over heat the transmission.  Over heating or over filling should not come out of the bell housing.  On most of my transmission builds, I remove the tin vent cap, drill and tap for pipe thread, and install a steel tubing drain down the side of the transmission and away from the hot headers and/or exhaust.

PIC: small, vertical drain tube for transmission vent.