engine/transmission for my 57 Del Rio project? Y bock or 351, AOD or C4 ?

[djfordmanjack]

Guys, I would appreciate to hear your takes on a drivetrain question!

Here I have this disassembled Del Rio project, that I might get going again. It was a great driver before, with a '69 351W and truck C6. The C6 has been sold on (didnt like the shift points). The 351W is still here and could be installed as is, doesn't smoke, no noise, rebuilt heads, good Edelbrock on Performer 351 intake.
I have 2x (hopefully) good 5.0 AODs and a ca. 1966 C4 (large bellhousing) out of a running Mustang.
Or there is a 292 Y block project, already bored 060 and a reground 312 crank, 312 rods, serviced heads, 4bbl intake and a 500 Edelbrock, new Isky torque cam....needs blueprint and final assembly.
there's also a Bendtsen Speed Gems adapter kit for Y/AOD.
I also have a '66 289, new bores&pistons, nice old Weiand 4bl intake, needs blueprint, heads rebuild and assembly.

The rearend is an og wgn 9" with the later center section and 3.25 gears installed, drum brakes and frt Grenada discs&spindles.

I love the SBF and they make great drivers. very dependable and good power/milage.
I love the 292 Y in my 4dr wgn. good power, nice shifts. but the heavy 3spd Fordo and not as good in mpg.(3.56 rear).

Not a leadfoot driver, nor into maximum performance, but want reliable and reasonable combo.
Would like to hear about your opinions/experience please!

[hiball3985]

I wouldn't second guess you on your choice, Y block or the 351 would be good. I would forget the 289. A 289 with an auto trans just isn't enough HP/torque for a heavy wagon especially with those gears. Just my $.02 with a real value of $.01

[rmk57]

  The 351 Windsor for the win. They rated them at 290 hp for the 4 bbl. version. You could have four adult passengers and still have enough passing power. The 289 or 302 are great little engines just not enough beans to keep a 3600 lbs. wagon rolling comfortably on steep grades without being in second gear all the time.

[djfordmanjack]

2cts

Not at all, Jim ! Thx Randy! that is exactly the reason I was asking. I do appreciate to hear all of your opinons !

As mentioned before the 351 already was in the car before w/ factory engine mounts and og frame brackets. only the transmission Xmember was hacked for the C6. I have another good X member that can be tailor fit to whatever new transmission.

I want to add, that I will be using pretty tall rear tires. either 225/75-15 or more likely 8.20 15. Not that wide, but rather tall, considering the total drivetrain ratio with a 3.25 rear and a 0.67 AOD. is that too much for a 351 or the bored out 322ish Y?

[hiball3985]

What kind of terrain do plan on driving on? If it's mostly level or slight grades it should be alright. I stuck with 3.89 and OD because I live in the foothills and some city planning wackos decided now every little residential street should have a stop sign and a speed bump between them  . Driving around locally I never get out of 2nd gear.

[djfordmanjack]

Jim, you have a 4spd manual, correct ? w/ or w/o OD?

I plan on drivin it mostly level and mild grades on long distance trips (Germany/Italy/France), and it's level around my town. But I am living surrounded by mountains and steep terrain, so I also need to get over these. There are pretty steep climbs on our highways.
I reckon that with an AOD it should be possible to adapt the 57 steering column and gear selector so I can use/lock all 3 shift ranges ?!?
So I can use the OD only on flat areas.
Is the 3rd gear in the AOD 1.0?

my 34 Ford has a 2.48 posi behind a 302/C4 and 8.20-15 and that's abut the tallest ratio I would want on that car ( its also a lot lighter and probably has less wind resistance than the 57).

if I multiply the AOD .67 with the 3.25 rear, that would make 2.17 total....that really sounds very very tall gearing for a 3500pd car?!

[rmk57]

  I had a c-6 with the stock auto column. It worked fine although the pointer wouldn't exactly line up with LDNRP. It's been awhile but I think I had to flip the lever and either shorten or lengthen
it to get the correct sweep so the shift lever would hit all the gears. Not such a big deal, just a trial and error thing to get it right. You may be able to adopt a regular c-4 c-6 column indicator so it looks visually correct.

[hiball3985]

Jim, you have a 4spd manual, correct ? w/ or w/o OD?
if I multiply the AOD .67 with the 3.25 rear, that would make 2.17 total....that really sounds very very tall gearing for a 3500pd car?!

Mine is a T85 3 spd with OD. So in OD it would be about 2.56
I don't know what gears they use in cars with AOD, I'm just not up to speed on the modern stuff.
Find out what gears Rich has in his, that should be a good base line.

[gasman826]

One vote for the AOD.  It will fit all your engines and has overdrive.  But, I rebuild and modify all my automatic transmissions.  The AOD is a good four speed, overdrive automatic.  The OEM cross member will work if hacked much like for the C6.  Like the C6 there will be limited access to the rear pan bolts...no big deal, just a pain doing regular PM.  If the shift points were a deal breaker for the C6, the AOD will also be a disappointment with early shifts at low speeds with little throttle.  Modifications or aftermarket governor will fix the early shift.  The other downside to C6, C4 or AOD is limited manual shift control.  One can ratchet shift the 1-2 shift to hold 2nd gear and then manual shift to 3rd gear with no control of the 4th gear shift.  Aftermarket valve body will fix all that.  As far as shift linkage, buy the Lokar stuff!  The OEM automatic column will work but with questionable satisfaction and little to no gear control.  At minimum, the detent and indicator would need upgrades...maybe.  I did not attempt column mods and just installed a '64 Galaxie column.  Worked great.  As to the gear ratio, the Raunch Wagon had the OEM 3.56.  To low for expressways with no overdrive and Y-Block.  I changed to 3.00 and the old 292 loved it.  When I changed to the AOD, I changed to 3.25 with TractionLok.  With a 28" tall tire, still too much gear.  Changed to a 3.89 TL and this was the gear for around town and expressway...70MPH at 2100 rpms.  The last two summers, the Raunch Wagon had 4.11 TL and was still an all round great driver.  I will admit that the engine really sounded good at 90 mph!  Gas mileage has never been my strong suite.  All your engines are great.  I changed to Windsor and never looked back.  It was original only once.  Since the y-block is vintage, parts and especially performance are harder to find and are more expensive than a Windsor.   

I'm sure you'll be happy what ever direction you go.

[djfordmanjack]

wow, what a wealth of information !!!
thnx for your detailed insight in your gearing and the AOD shift patterns, Gary!
No, its not the low shift points I disliked. the C6 had like a towing vehicle governor setup, and it would only shift into 3rd gear over 40 mph. That I don't like at all. It's also very bad for mpg in town. I love the low shift points of the typical C4 @ low throttle.

So that sounds as if I need a new differential gear set with the AOD, but that would be totally feasible and reasonable to change.
yes, the factory wgn 3.56 is really low. I have that in my 4dr Country Sedan. >It has great pickup but the engine becomes pretty noisy at extended 70+mph highway driving. It's possible and after cleaning the cooling system thoroughly the CS will not overheat, but I just dislike racing an old engine like that.
As mentioned before this 351 is really a perfectly working unit, even has electronic ignition. ready to reinstall.
On the other hand I have nearly all the parts for the Y block (just missing new valve rocker shafts, a set of lifters and possibly a few rockers) and I love the sound of a Y block. The 351 sounds great as well.

Yes Jim, your 2.56 total ratio confirms that the 2.17 I calculated for my setup, is most probably just too low. well i could try it anyways and replace the diff gear set later in case.

There's also that C4 that I could directly bolt to the 351 and ommitting the tall gear trouble in AOD. would also make it easier for the throttle setup, but then I already have the AOD Lokar TV cable kit.

Like Randy and Gary said, I will need some time to hook it all up with my existing column, or find a different. somewhere I have the full 65 T bird dash and sway-away column setup, but I doubt that I wanted that in the Del Rio.

Many things to consider.

[gasman826]

If you use an AOD, the 3.56 gear would be a good starting point.  Many AOD vehicles had factory installed 3.55 and 3.73 ratios.

'65 Thunderbird dash swaps fits well.

[Ecode70D]

WOW Günter
    You have a lot of engines to choose from and in the end it will be your decision. I hope that the transmission will be overdrive
and keep in mind the cost of fuel over there. Jay

[djfordmanjack]

Very important point Jay !  fuel cost is a main focus for building a setup over here. Just the other day I was talking to a local Mustang guy and he has this and that done on his engine and 500 dyno-ed hp, only to confess he sold the car because he didn't drive it at all....because of the gas bills.
I also dislike racing (as in high rpms) old engines. As you know the 2.48 rearend in our 34 sdn is just extremely comfortable to cruise at even 100mph ( and thats what I did in Germany, for hours). it is doing less than 2000rpm @ 65mph.

Gary you did a great job in making that T bird dash work in your 57.
very interesting about the og diff gear ratios in og AOD cars. I was thinking that the AOD would be an ideal addition to my 292/3.56rear 57CS 4dr.

[hiball3985]

Just to give some what of a base line my Y with 3.89 and OD gets 17 mpg on the hiway. I don't run the tank too low so I usually fill it after 280 miles. I never check it around town as I have a heavy foot and don't care about mileage. If I was worried about mileage I would buy a VW. But you already have that covered 

[lalessi1]

My car had a 302 and an AOD in it when I bought it. The 302 was a dog (not sure of year or what condition it was in.) I ditched it for an FE and a Toploader for a nostalgia feel. I would go the AOD and the 351 route as well!  If you wanted too at some point you can build a 462 CI Windsor and save 100 lbs over a Y-block or an FE. Gas milage, what is that? Seriously for milage, you might consider EFI and computerized timing control. In any case I think the 351 is a perfect platform even stock for a '57.