Master Cylinder Questions

[KYBlueOval]

Thanks for the replies. I found two Mustang GT's of the correct age, on a Ford Dealer's lot........I'm going there today to do, my due diligence.

KULTULZ.....Could you please explain what WSM, and PDV stand for.

I'll post a photo of the distribution block I purchased yesterday, later today. And yes, the HydroBoost I purchased has a MC with bleeders.

Stay tuned.
John 

[RICH MUISE]

That distribution block may/may not work on your car, depending on how your entire brake system matches up with the brake system on the donor car, (rear discs or drums). As I had mentioned, The one that I got with the hydroboost was not adjustable, (yours may be.?), and why I went with the Wilwood proportioning valve. Just my 2 cents.

[KULTULZ]

KULTULZ.....Could you please explain what WSM, and PDV stand for.


John

Guess that might help ...

WSM - WORKSHOP MANUAL (FORD)

PDV - PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE

Be sure to check the vehicle for ABS and T/C (TRACTION-CONTROL) and whether it has front disc and rear drum/disc. They are different.

I wish I had a period WSM to help you guys.

[KYBlueOval]

Today  I went to a local Ford Dealer that had a 2004 Mustang GT on the lot. The plumbing connections/configuration on the GT were the same as on the V6 at Pull A Part.
Armed with the VIN #'s from the 2003 at Pull A Part and the 2004 GT on the lot, I went to the parts dept, and they looked up this part(they call it a proportion valve). The part "looks the same" for both applications and as I said, is plumbed the same. HOWEVER, there are different part numbers. The difference in the part numbers is the last two letters.
The 2003 V6 Mustang uses part F9ZZ 2B091 AA , 2004 Mustang GT uses F9ZZ 2B091 CA. The part for the GT had a note in the computer that said it was applicable for cars equipped with Traction Control and ABS Brakes.I have neither.

So I now feel comfortable plumbing the non Traction Control and non ABS part into my Ranchero, running the line from the smaller fitting on the MC (closest to the firewall) to the top "IN" port on the proportioning valve.(See the photo below) The other port on the MC will go to the Lower "In" on the valve. The front brakes are plumbed separately coming out of this valve, and I'll do the same. Got to modify the bracket to get it mounted.

I hope my explanation is clear, if not say so.
John

[KYBlueOval]

That distribution block may/may not work on your car, depending on how your entire brake system matches up with the brake system on the donor car, (rear discs or drums). As I had mentioned, The one that I got with the hydroboost was not adjustable, (yours may be.?), and why I went with the Wilwood proportioning valve. Just my 2 cents.

Rich, I may be incorrect, but I do not think that this distribution block(Ford calls it a Proportioning Valve) will present a problem for me. As you stated, there is no adjusting this "valve". It has been explained to me like this.... Fluid comes into the proportioning valve/distribution block, call it what you want, and goes out. If the valve senses a major loss of fluid,it will slide the pin inside the valve to block off the fluid loss. There is a spring under  the one removable fitting, and as you look into the various ports you can see a RED pin in one of them. I think the name Proportioning Valve is a complete misnomer. I think a more accurate description is a distribution block, with a built in safety feature. I don't believe it proportions anything, unless Ford considers the pin moving inside, as being proportioning. And like you I have a Wilwood proportioning valve in my rear brake line plumbing. When I get it up and running, I'll post how the brakes work.......or don't work!
John

[terry_208]

I am following this as I too will need to do the same thing and need the same parts/pieces. 

[KULTULZ]

Rich, I may be incorrect, but I do not think that this distribution block(Ford calls it a Proportioning Valve) will present a problem for me. As you stated, there is no adjusting this "valve". It has been explained to me like this.... Fluid comes into the proportioning valve/distribution block, call it what you want, and goes out. If the valve senses a major loss of fluid,it will slide the pin inside the valve to block off the fluid loss. There is a spring under  the one removable fitting, and as you look into the various ports you can see a RED pin in one of them. I think the name Proportioning Valve is a complete misnomer. I think a more accurate description is a distribution block, with a built in safety feature. I don't believe it proportions anything, unless Ford considers the pin moving inside, as being proportioning. And like you I have a Wilwood proportioning valve in my rear brake line plumbing. When I get it up and running, I'll post how the brakes work.......or don't work!

John

A DISTRIBUTION BLOCK was used on pre-1967 FORD Cars.

What you have (showing) is a COMBINATION VALVE, that being a block that contains more than one type valve. What you are describing with the moveable pintel is the PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE.

The valve that controls rear brake line pressure on the rear brake circuit is the PROPORTIONING VALVE. It would only be used on non-ABS.

The other important valve is the METERING VALVE. It holds off front disc brake line pressure until the rear drum brakes begin to apply for vehicle stability. Some new MC designs have eliminated this valve and is plumbed into the MC by internal valving.

If you take the VIN of the vehicle to the dealer parts dude, they can run a build sheet that tells exactly how the car was assembled.

Do you know for certain the 2003 MUST did not have ABS?

[KULTULZ]

I forgot to mention ... 

The ENGINEERING PN on that valve -



... can be crossed to a SERVICE PN by the parts dude on his CDP. That will help ID what you have.

[KYBlueOval]

KULTULZ.........You sir are a wealth of knowledge! Thank you for clearing things up for me, and possibly others.
To address the points you raised.....1)So, is the correct term for the valve I purchased from a V6 2003 Mustang, called a COMBINATION VALVE or a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE? I like"Pressure Differential Valve"! I think that describes its function, but I defer to you for the correct description.I have the VIN # and will do as you suggested and get the vin decoded as to what this donor car had as equipment. When I removed the Valve, I did not see anything that looked like ABS plumbing.
2)Proportioning Valve.....I have installed one on my rear brake circuit. Is there a FORD OEM Proportioning Valve that one would adjust? I read your reply to say a Proportioning Valve is not a function of the Combination Valve or Pressure Differential Valve.
3) Metering Valve....If you know, how does one determine if there is a metering valve and where it is located?
4) Yes, the parts guy looked up the engineering number for this part from the donor 2003 Mustang and from a 2004 GT. The engineering numbers are different, as are the part numbers. The part numbers are the same until one gets to the last two letters, and they are different.
Now sir, please give me your recommendation as to which of these Pressure Differential Valves I should use. Here is what I have: Front Brakes are from  '93-'97 NON GT Mustang 2 Piston Calipers. Rear brakes are Discs from a 2001 Explorer. There is a Wilwood Proportioning valve in the rear brake line. Having said all of that, which of these two Pressure Differential Valves do you suggest I use? The one from a V6 or from a GT (The notation on the dealer's computer says the GT version is for cars With Traction Control and ABS and I do not have either of them)
Thank you!
John

[KULTULZ]

SIR?

Who came in?

If you are using an adjustable anti-bias valve, you do not want the OEM COMBINATION VALVE in the rear (drum) circuit.

FORD had a little trouble with naming the valve(s) (METERING - PDV - PROPORTIONING) on intro. The valves were separate from 1965 to 1971/72. FORD then combined all the valving in one unit which is normally referred to as a COMBINATION VALVE. FORD, for whatever reason, still called the assembly a PROPORTIONING VALVE (2B091). There is where the confusion lies.

The real need to know is how the 2003 MC(s) are valved inside (and if those changes eliminated the METERING VALVE portion of the combination valve).

Now I did not know FORD used a mechanical PROPORTIONING VALVE with an  ABS equipped vehicle. This is where the need for the correct year WSM is needed to see how engineering changed. I have a 2005 WSM but it is for TAURUS only.

You also will need an inline RPV (RESIDUAL PRESSURE VALVE) ON THE REAR CIRCUIT (#10 - immediately at/after the MC rear circuit line if using an older rear drum system.

OH! The only true ADJ PROPORTIONG VALVE released by FORD (other than SHELBY) was the 1965 (corrected)-66 MUST BORG-WARNER unit. It was adjustable and was also used on the VETTE of that period.

If you need more info or this wasn't clear (which I understand), please feel free to rattle my cage.

[KYBlueOval]

Again a lot of information. Thank you!
As to the SIR........I was raised in the South, Georgia to be exact. Using Sir is the way I was raised. Can't change at this point.

Your comment regarding the adjustable anti-bias valve, and the OEM Combination Valve, in the rear DRUM circuit. My set up has 2001 Explorer Rear Disc Brakes. With that added information, what is your recommendation as to what valve should be in the rear brake circuit, with rear disc brakes? IF any?

And YES, the various names for the various valves is rather confusing to someone that does not use the words frequently.

Any thoughts on how to determine the presence of a metering valve?

I have no knowledge regarding Ford using a mechanical proportioning valve with ABS. How does that affect my set up? As I stated, I have a Wilwood  mechanical proportioning valve in my rear disc brake circuit.

As to the RPV, I have rear disc brakes, so I don't believe I need a RPV.

I'm going to send you a PM (private message) with my contact information, as I would really like to speak with you and get my head wrapped around this issue.
John

[KULTULZ]

As to the SIR........I was raised in the South, Georgia to be exact. Using Sir is the way I was raised. Can't change at this point.

I understand fully. I was raised in SW VA so I understand what you are saying.

[KULTULZ]

OK, here we go ...

... please give me your recommendation as to which of these Pressure Differential Valves I should use.

Here is what I have: Front Brakes are from '93-'97 NON GT Mustang 2 Piston Calipers. Rear brakes are Discs from a 2001 Explorer.

There is a Wilwood Proportioning valve in the rear brake line. Having said all of that, which of these two Pressure Differential Valves do you suggest I use?

 The one from a V6 or from a GT (The notation on the dealer's computer says the GT version is for cars With Traction Control and ABS and I do not have either of them)

In all reality, with four wheel disc, there is no need for a PROPORTIONING VALVE if the setup is on an original OEM car (and it did not use any type of a PPV). Brake bias was built into the car by engineering. Now where this fails is when using different model FRT and RR DISC setups from two different cars on one car.

When all install is completed, the car needs to go to a skid pad and tested during emergency braking (WALLY WORLD PARKING LOT on a rainy SUN morning. Be observant of any light poles). If the rear wants to come around (limited pressure stops at first), you would then begin to dial in the adj. anti-bias (proportioning ) valve to limit application pressure @ the rear brakes. Leave the WILDWOOD valve in the rear circuit and leave wide open before skid test. If she comes down in a straight line, leave the adjustable valve alone.

In all actuality, you don't really need a PDV (PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE). All it does is illuminate a WARNING LAMP pending a hydraulic failure. That is your option. A METERING VALVE is not needed on a DISC/DISC application. Nether is a RPV (RESIDUAL PRESSURE VALVE) as it is used for drum brakes only.

The valves (2B091) you are mentioning, were both from DISC/DISC or DISC/DRUM?

The MC has to be from a DISC/DISC car.

This is all on a '57? How is it powered? Is this vacuum or hydro-boost?

Now the above is without consulting any PERIOD CORRECT FORD TECH INFO. If any of this (or me) doesn't make sense, feel free to ask.

[KULTULZ]

Here is a brief tutorial on BRAKE SYSTEM VALVING (Pre-ABS) -

https://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/brake_facts.html

[KYBlueOval]

KULTULZ........I looked back in this thread to see if this "2B091 Valve" is mentioned, and I didn't see that reference, so I can't answer that question.

I have a HydroBoost from a 2003 Mustang GT. My understanding is that 2003 Mustang GT's were 4 wheel disc cars. I'll verify that this morning.
I replaced the MC with a New MC for a 2003 Mustang V8 WITHOUT Traction Control.From what I can find on the internet All V8 2003 Mustangs W/O Traction Control use the same MC.
Thanks
John