I picked up a pinion seal kit. It's got the seal, an o-ring,a new crush nut,and a large gasket. I found out today the knowledgeable mechanic I used to replace the axle seals last fall is no longer doing repair work for the public. So, I'm looking for a new mechanic, and have concerns because I know/have read about the pinion gear being a critical area for torquing. My question is, does the whole pumpkin/axels have to come out in order to replace the large (10"ish)fiber gasket?
Any advise on what to look for when talking to a new shop, other than experienced on Ford 9"ers?
There is no need to remove the pumpkin to replace the pinion seal Replace large gasket only if leaking. Just remove pinion assembly. Follow shop manual procedure. Pinion bearing preload is critical, don't overtighten. Good time to inspect pinion bearings. Gear pattern or side bearing preload will not be effected. Do not alter pinion depth shims. Tom.
Thanks for the info, Tom. I'm not sure if the large gasket is leaking, I don't think so. I'll crawl under there when the temps get a bit warmer, and get a look. I won't be the one doing it, getting too old.
Rich, do you have an original large pinion seal rear end or a later model small seal?. Setting up the rear end isn't something most mechanics can do. I'm lucky and have a company that only does rear ends close by, been doing it for 50+ years. I won't do it my self. Good luck finding someone.
Hey Jim. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what got changed out when I had the rear end modified 6 years ago. It still has the what-ever-it-came-with housing, but not sure what you meant by "later model"...... Later in the '57 year production, or a later year? As far as I know the pinion seal should be "normal".......never saw any options for seal size when I was searching for the kit.......assumed all '57s were the same.
I'm very uncomfortable with who I've found so far, may cancel the appointment I have for the 6th, and just keep adding fluid once in a while.....at least til I find someone I'm comfortable with. Can't risk getting the car "hung up" on someone's lift because I got the wrong seal.
Please elaborate on the "later model small pinion seal".
An OEM, '57 pinion seal was a one-year only. It is larger than all the other years of OEM and aftermarket.
Well, then I may not have the correct one. Anybody have a measurement for the '57 seal so I can check what I got.
I'm not wanting to open the sealed package in case I can return if needed. As near as I can measure the new Seal's OD (not flange) is 3.005", and the ID is 1.390".
Actually, the pinion seal on my original 3rd member in my 59 also had the oddball, much larger OD pinion seal. Since I was having a buddy, who does differentials for a living, and also does about 1/2 the race cars at the Mission Raceway dragstrip, I had him build 3 complete 3rd members for me, with gear ratios for "normal" driving (3.50), dragstrip (4.33), and freeway (the original 2.91s that were in my 59). Since I was also going to stronger 31 spline axles, I also had him use the larger bearing "Daytona" pinion support, and larger billet 1350 sized pinion flanges. The early pinion seals are hard to find, if you can find a 9" specialist, maybe he can supply a later pinion support that the seals are easier to obtain. AND, properly set the pinion bearing preload. It takes a lot of torque to get the new "crush sleeve" to start collapsing.
Like what was mentioned the 57 was a one year only design. Here is the 57 (red one) and the dirty one is the later design with the small seal. I used the later one, had it rebuilt.IMG_0707.JPG
I may have the right one then, not 100%. On the red on, it appears I can see the lip of the seal under the yoke (something missing there?) On the dirty one, it's covered, so I have no way to tell if the smaller one is visibly smaller, or if it's a measurement thing. As mentioned, the new one I have is about 3.00 on outer diameter where it presses into the bore. Any idea what the smaller one would measure, or is 3" the smaller one?
Thanks for posting the pics, Jim.
Nothing missing, just the way it is :001: The large seal measured 4" on the OD, small seal 3".IMG_0707a.JPG
That's what I needed.Thanks Jim!! I do have the wrong one. That info was just verified by Yukon Gear and axle. I need a 4.125 seal. He said it was used on 57-60(?) and the smaller seal started in '61. Now another search. he gave me a number to orede at Autozone, and another number if Ebay.
Autozone: 30135
Ebay YMS 6930
It maybe 4.125, it's under a bench now and I didn't want to drag it out to get an exact measure. As far as I know it was 57 only and the other change and I don't remember what year, they eliminated the fill plug. I made that mistake one time many years ago :005:
Jim, 57 thru 60 makes sense, as my 59s original rearend also had the larger seal OD, with a leather seal ring. As for the lack of a filler plug, ran into that many years ago, when I swapped in a center section for a 63 or 64 Merc. Ended up having to pour the gear oil in thru the end of the housing before installing the axles, and hoping the amount listed in the shop manual was accurate! I guess Ford was putting the filler plugs back in the case, in the later 60s, as all my 69-70 Mustangs and Failanes had them.
I ordered the larger seal from Autozone. Will be here in a week. Monday I need to call the guys I bought the kit from and find out if all the other stuff like the o-ring and crush thingie is usable. If not, I'll order a larger seal KIT and cancel AutoZone. I'll let you guys know what I find out.
I had to do the same, poured it down the axle tube :003: My 58 had a small pinion,that was in 1967 so I can't say for sure it was the original rear end.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2023-02-17 12:56I ordered the larger seal from Autozone. Will be here in a week. Monday I need to call the guys I bought the kit from and find out if all the other stuff like the o-ring and crush thingie is usable. If not, I'll order a larger seal KIT and cancel AutoZone. I'll let you guys know what I find out.
Rich, it MAY not be considered a "proper" repair, but at the dealership, we would often replace a leaking pinion seal, without replacing the crush sleeve. We would put a paint mark on the pinion nut, threads on the pinion shaft,and the pinion yoke, then remove the yoke and replace the seal. Rather than torque the pinion nut back on during reassembly, we would thread the nut back on, to the exact same position, and stake the nut to the pinion shaft. Did quite a few this way, and never had a come back. Of course, this is dependent on you retaining the same gears, yoke, bearings, crush sleeve, etc, and being able to return the nut back to the same position.
Yup, done the same a couple of times myself. Before removing the yoke I would measure the rotating torque with no wheels on the rear. Changed the seal, started the nut, measured the torque every few hits with the impact wrench. Takes a little time but never had one come apart of whine.
If I had a lift, I'd be learning to do this myself..........and may anyways. My next door neighbor just bought a commercial building for his hobbies, and is installing a lift.
Yes, a lift is certainly a nice addition, to make the old bones happier. When we were looking into buying our new house, a few years ago, a nice sized garage, with enough height and space for a lift was high on my list. After debating 2 post vs 4 post, vs scissor lift, I decided to go with a 2 post, as I do more drivetrain and suspension work, so having the underneath of the car wide open made sense. Great for swapping out al those 9" center sections!
As age creeps up (some times it really rushes) you learn "tricks" and "tools" to help with the work. I have built racks to hold the doors when installing after paint, one to hold the 9" while changing it out and found a way to install the finished bed cover on the Ranchero without marring the finish.
In 95 I bought this house, or should I say "I bought a shop that included a house" to keep me happy with my hobby! My wife liked the house so all is good! Just wish it was tall enough to put in a lift!
I remember the days when I could just lift a 9" in place, not anymore. I manage with a floor jack and some wrangling :005:
Talked to Riverside Gear this morning. They are the ones I bought the seal kit from. He told me everything else in the kit is the same..crush sleeve, o-ring, etc. I could return the kit, but no need as I'll be using everything but the seal (and big gasket).
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2023-02-17 19:54Yup, done the same a couple of times myself. Before removing the yoke I would measure the rotating torque with no wheels on the rear. Changed the seal, started the nut, measured the torque every few hits with the impact wrench. Takes a little time but never had one come apart of whine.
reading info on the Yukon website, it says it normally takes 300-400 lbs of torque to crush the sleeve. The Ford manual says to torque it to 18 inch lbs ( don't have the manual handy right now, I think that is in the correct range) needed to rotate the pinion gear. I'm thinking this is just about what you were doing, Bill.
Went to pick up my 4 1/8 seal at Auto Zone today.......and told them to keep it. 122.90 plus tax!!!!! The world's gone crazy. I found out the YMS6930 number I posted before is "Yukon Mighty Seal" made by the people that made my trac-loc. 47ish plus ship The 6930 number is the old National Seal number. I found a different one on ebay for 14.00 delivered. I ordered it. Looks to be the same as what Autozone wanted 122. for.
Thats just crazy, I think I only paid about $15
Lots of big pinion seals on Ebay as low as 13.50. Prices vary greatly.
Got the pinion seal in a few days ago. It was 15.60 delivered. Looks identical to what Auto ZOne showed me for 122.00, same color coating.
I have been using Pennzoil axel oil with Motorcraft friction modifier. Nobody in town had the modifier, got it delivered from ebay as well. Looked everywhere for the Pennzoil. None of the chain supply stores or the independents had it. Found some other brands that would probably work ok, but I knew for sure the pennzoil did, so wanted to stick with that. I had to go to Ace Hardware for something else yesterday, and spotted some yellow bottles as I was walking by the auto supply aisle. Yep, Pennzoil Axel oil...LOL.
I'm still looking for someone I feel comfortable with doing the seal, in the meantime I'll just keep adding fluid as needed.
I experienced the same issue with my diff seal, the O'reilly counter person brought up the high dollar seal and I was shocked and showed him the 14.00 seal and part number I had been looking at, on line, once he entered my part number he said he could have it there the next day, so I ordered 2 to be on the safe side in case all of them went to the 120.00 price tag. I'm glad the less expensive seal option is still available. I have a few hundred miles on the seal since replaced and no leaks.
I never did get mine installed. Hard time finding a local who has done it. I was going to try and find a shop on one of my roadtrips to other areas, but honestly forgot about it. Did you install yours yourself?
I'm pretty sure there aren't optional seals, just optional pricing, lol.
I did install mine myself. Some U tube videos show marking the nut or counting the threads on the pinion shaft so you can put back to spec but, its best to use a inch lbs. torque wrench to set the drag on the pinion so as to not overtorque/under torque the crush washer. I removed the complete assembly and rechecked the backlash and drag just to make sure. It was a lot of work but I also went through the rear brakes and brake cylinders since it had been 10 years since any of that was serviced.
Quote from: 59meteor on 2023-02-17 17:32Rich, it MAY not be considered a "proper" repair, but at the dealership, we would often replace a leaking pinion seal, without replacing the crush sleeve. We would put a paint mark on the pinion nut, threads on the pinion shaft,and the pinion yoke, then remove the yoke and replace the seal. Rather than torque the pinion nut back on during reassembly, we would thread the nut back on, to the exact same position, and stake the nut to the pinion shaft. Did quite a few this way, and never had a come back. Of course, this is dependent on you retaining the same gears, yoke, bearings, crush sleeve, etc, and being able to return the nut back to the same position.
Maybe I'm missing something here but how did you keep the paint mark on the pinion shaft threads from being obliterated, scraped off, by the nut when you removed it? Did you have to put 300 – 400 lbs of torque on the nut or does that only apply when using new crush seals? Must be quite the trick to hold that yoke in place while applying that much torque.
Glad I ran across this thread & learned about these different sized seals but I'll be surprised if I get an email notification of any replies.
For some reason that mostly hasn't been working since this board was ...'updated'? Got no help about fixing that. It's odd but I have received email notifications for the Morning Coffee thread.
A fellow old time rodder showed me how to mark the pinion nut and shaft. He simply made a stripe on the top of the nut across the threads to the end of the pinion shaft using one of those yellow marking pens junk yards use to mark up parts. He then said to count the number of turns, only to get in the "ball park", before using the inch pound wrench.
One of the many tools I have made is a plate that bolts to the yoke and has the end cut down to allow a large piece of pipe to slip over and hold it against the spring or chassis while tightening the nut with a four foot long 3/4" breaker bar. Pain in the butt but it makes checking the inch pound fairly easy. Never did find or own an impact that would pull it down enough.
Damn! I actually got an email notification!
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2023-05-06 07:58< > One of the many tools I have made is a plate that bolts to the yoke and has the end cut down to allow a large piece of pipe to slip over and hold it against the spring or chassis while tightening the nut with a four foot long 3/4" breaker bar. Pain in the butt but it makes checking the inch pound fairly easy. Never did find or own an impact that would pull it down enough.
Yeah, done things like that many times myself. Sometimes just put the pipe over the handle of a big Crescent wrench & even a big pipe wrench to fit over very large things.
I should have made it clear that I was thinking about when the center section was removed from the axle housing that could possibly be quite the trick to hold the yoke in place while applying that much torque. It just depends on what tools & space you've got to work with.
Right after I posted that I realized that it's probably easy enough for most of us old experienced geezers with the tools & a good bench that we didn't have many years ago.
Put the yoke end itself in a sturdily-mounted vise with pinion support hanging loose, tighten pinion nut with bar gradually and stop frequently to test preload inch pounds. If you go too far, you have to replace the new crush sleeve again and start over.
I have five 9 inch carriers in my pole building. Only two of them have that 4+ inch diameter seal. That screwed me up too cuz my ordered parts came with the 3 inch seal. I also learned that the carrier bearings are a larger diameter (+3") in the early axles so had to order those again too.
Carrier that I pulled from a 61 Galaxie (but now suspect it is a 57 carrier someone had installed). Had the 3.22 ratio I wanted, but which was not available in 1961, or so I have read. The other one with a large pinion seal is a 3.10 ratio that I pulled from a 57 years ago.
All the rest are 3 inch pinion seals. A 1963, a 1976 and an unknown year.
Side note: I also learned that the early 9 inch ring gears are actually only 8 3/4" in diameter. All of mine measured 8.75 diameter, except for the 76 Torino carrier which came in at a true 9 inches diameter.