This is my first full resto, and I do not have much experience with body work. I have been taking apart the inside and have found rust (all the way through) at the bottoms of some of the doors. Is this something that can be fixed? Or, should I start looking for new doors? To clarify the rust is at the bottom of the door on the inside and not on the door skin.
Absolutly it can be fixed, but, and there's always a "but', the first thing you need to do is find out exactly what you have. I would be surprised if the bottom of the door is rusted thru and there is no rust on the outer skin. You need to fill us in a bit on what shape your project is in, and what plans you have for the restoration. Are you going to do the bodywork yourself or farm it out...that, from a dollar standpoint will play into which is the best way to go. If it's just the door bottoms, it would probably be cheaper to repair, if it's also the outer skin and you need to farm it out, it would probably be cheaper to look for new doors.
With that said, finding out "where your project is" is going to involve alot of stripping of parts down to bare metal to see if repairs have already been previously made, or damaged areas hidded by a paint job, etc. Old repairs can be ok as is, or it could have had an badly done bondo filling which you can't see until the paint is stripped. Does it look like the car has ever been repainted?
There are alot of guys here with heavy experience in body work and restoration that will be more than happy to lead the way step by step.
My project was a first for panel replacement and the like, so I know what your gonna be facing, but believe me it's one of the most gratifying experiences you'll ever have.
The best way for us to help is to get more info from you as I mentioned....details about the current condition, it's history if you know it ( paint jobs, etc), and what you're looking for as a final result...is this going to be a nut and bolt full restoration with everything perfect as posible, or a just-need-it-to-look-presentable daily driver, etc.
Rich
In my experience, the rust you can see is abput 50% of what is actually there! As Rich has said, there probably is rust on the inside of the skin, you just haven't found it yet! I would start by carefully drilling out the spot welds that attach the folded over part of the skin to the frame on the bottom adge and very carefully fold the folded part away so you can get a good look at the lower part of the skin (you've got to do this anyway to repair the bottom of the door). If you can see any rust, prepare yourself for replacing the lower inch or two of the skin, if you don't, the rust will eventually break through the outer surface of the skin in the future and you'll kick yourself for not sorting it when you had chance.
To the best of my knowledge, door skins aren't available so you'll have to fold a repair section from the same gauge steel and let it in. The problem with doing this is distortion in the skin when you weld in the repair section. I get round this by taking a piece of 3/8" x 1/8" flat bar and CAREFULLY tack welding it INSIDE the door, running from front to back, 1/2" above where you're going to cut the skin. This bar then acts as a stiffening brace so the skin retains its shape when you chop the bottom off. I then put a 1/2" joggle (step) in the bottom of the remaining skin and weld the repair to this (again, going carefully to minimise distortion).
I used the above method on my previous car (1960 Impala) and it worked really well and I'll be using it on my Ranchero as well. Unfortunately I haven't got any photos of doing this, but it worked well.
Matt,
I had a frame off done on my car the first of 2009 and I was able to keep the trunk, roof, hood and doors because there wasn't any rust on them. Everything else seemed like it got replaced. This summer, I had rust popping through the bottom rear corner on each door. I couldn't believe it. I had cleaned up the inside of the doors and painted them with POR-15 myself. The new body guy just laughed at me for thinking I could prevented the rust. It was rust that had started between two sandwiched pieces of metal that you can't get to. He had to cut the door skin and add a piece of metal to each outside door skin. It was about 1 1/2" square. The new body guy I got was able to blend the paint and did a real good job.
While you are working on the doors, do yourself a favor and see if you can figure out a way of preventing rust from starting between those sandwiched pieces of door skin and door frame. Jim
Quote from: JimNolan on 2012-11-19 06:22
While you are working on the doors, do yourself a favor and see if you can figure out a way of preventing rust from starting between those sandwiched pieces of door skin and door frame. Jim
After making sure all metal is sand-blast clean I coat all surfaces with epoxy primer then when the door is complete I put a bead of seam sealer/body caulking right along the joint on the inside of the door. It isn't easy (messy though!!!!) but it helps to prevent a moisture trap, then follow it up (after painting) with a good body cavity wax. Just got to make sure those drain holes stay clear.
Body cavity wax ? believe I need some education here, have never heard of such a thing. Am sure not alone on this, tell me more.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Quote from: Zapato on 2012-11-20 00:43
Body cavity wax ? believe I need some education here, have never heard of such a thing. Am sure not alone on this, tell me more.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Rust proofing fluid that is sprayed inside closed box sections, not sure what brands you guys have over there, but here we use stuff made by Bilt Hamber or Dinitrol. It has excellent self-healing properties and can creep into spot welded seams by capliery action and also has rust killing properties.
I have had good luck with "Ospho" (SP?) rust converter. I wash the inside of the door with dish soap and a good hard spray from the hose. Let it dry for a few days in the sun. Turn the door upside down and hit the edge with a hard rubber mallet. Go all the way around the dor, front, back and bottom. If it is good and dry little bits of rust and dirt will fall out. Keep tapping until no more comes out (tedious I know). I then pour the Ospho into the door and rotate it side, bottom and side again. It is runny enouph to get into all the nooks and crannies and will actually seap out the seam. Let it dry a couple of days and then shoot primer in the seams. Worked very well on the 66 Falcon doors and the 62 Bird doors.
Zap....It sounds like the stuff Limey is talking about is the same as what Pat Fleishman was talking about last month in the post Limey started titled"chemical dipping..."...on page 2 of general discusion. Pat brought me his gun and a bottle of the stuff (3M Rustfighter)to do my rockers...I talked about it in the last post on that thread.
Rich
That's right Rich, its similar stuff, its sprayed into any inaccessible closed off area (inside rocker panels, rear quarters, door bottoms, chassis rails etc, etc). It is a water repellant wax that sticks to any surface to prevent rust and also neutralises any existing rust as well as seeping into any open seam through capliery action.
I've used the Dinitrol range in the past and it works really well, but I suspect that other (US) brands are very similar. I also found it was easier to use if you let it stand in a bucket of hot water for a few minutes to make it thinner.
http://www.dinitrol.co.uk/classic_cars.aspx
Matt,
Another thing I did to my 57 was pull the rubber plugs on each end of the rocker panels and use spray undercoat into the openings. They make a long rod with holes at the end to spray in all directions at the same time. I stuck it all the way back in both ends of the rocker panel, pulled the trigger on my undercoat gun and retracted the rod thereby coating the inside of the rockers. I've still got black undercoat on the driveway where I brought the car home, parked it outside and the excess dripped out the drain holes. I drove it for a couple days and then took the car to ZieBart. My car sees a lot of rain and I wanted to make sure rust didn't start in the rockers again. Jim
I get regular emails from KBS coatings, some of you read my posts about the stuff. They have a new "body cavity wax" spray product, thinking about giving it a try. Mark
Thank you for that wealth of information. I didn't expect so much great feedback.
To answer a few questions, I want this car to look presentable, but I will be using it as a daily driver. I am planning on retaining the original 312, but I want to replace the 3-speed with an AOD. I will be lowering the car with dropped spindles on the front and lowering springs in the back. I want to convert the front brakes to disc and possibly the rear as well.
I want the body to be as straight as possible, rust free, with a decent paint job without clearing out my kid's college funds. As the car sits right now there are small to large patches of rust all over the place. The floor pans all need to be replaced as well as both rockers. I need patch panels to the rear lower portion of both front fenders and to one of the rear quarter panels. The tailgate has some rust, but it appears to have a terrible bondo job on it. There is some rust to the frame of the hood, a few holes under the headlights, and of course the rust on the bottom side of the doors.
Needless to say I will never purchase another car of E-bay.
Right now I am just trying to figure out the best place to start. I want to take the body off the frame to make the frame is cleaned, painted, and sealed and everything is done right. Plus I want to replace all the body mounts.
My limited budget has left me basically just taking the car apart slowly.
Matt....good last post...that was one that will get you lots of valuable input as now we know what you're looking at, and what you want to be looking at.
A few more questions though that will help get you the right advise..you mentioned your bodyworking skills were light..any welding experience? "tailgate"..Ranchero or wagon (2dr. or 4 dr)? Since you mentioned you were on a limited budget, and with the areas you mentioned being rusted (most of them are typical), there are a few more areas you need to check. The reason you need to check these is to determine if the parts are available,and at what expense. I've advised guys in the past that if they can find a relatively rust free car, they will be thousands of dollars, and years of work ahead of the game. With that said, my first advise is going to be determining if this car is the right car, or if you're going to be ahead of the game selling it and spending a few thousand more on one that needs a whole lot less work. For an example, if your tailgate is not repairable, it'll be a tough to find item...they're out there, but getting harder to find a good one.
The areas you need to check are the inner rear wheel wells where they attach to the fenders, and the wheel well 'dogleg' at the inner bottom front. also, take a screwdriver and poke around the inner rocker panels where the floorboard supports attach. Poke around at the ends of the floor supports themselves as well. check the lower door posts where the rockers and posts are welded together, and the dogleg area of the door frame under the windshield ends. You should also check the frame itself while you're under it for weak areas.
Matt..a few more comments so you'll know where I'm coming from...Please do not take any of my above comments to be an attempt to discourage you in any way...quite the opposite. I was a few years into my project before I decided to check out the internet to see if there were any sites I could pick up info from (I'm an old guy..it wasn't second nature as it is now). Like you, it is my first restoration job. I had done some minor bodywork and painting 30 or 40 years ago, and usually kept my daily drivers repaired, but that was the extent of my automotive experience. Boy was I pleasantly surprised when I found this site and all the help I've gotten over the past few years. One of the main reasons I do so much posting is simply that I've been proud of what I've been able to accomplish as my first project and take the opportunity when I can to encourage others to do the same. I don't have the mechanical or electrical skills that some of the guys here have, but like them, I like to share what I have learned. With a little bit of confidence, and an "I can do this, I can do this" attitude, you can meet the challenge and gain a whole lot of pride in the process.
What part of the country are you from, btw?
And one more post (there are 2 more on page one of this thread)..then I gotta go help the wife clean house! Assuming you're going to proceed with the project you have, a few suggestions before you take stuff apart. The number one thing...take lots of pics with a high resolution digital camera. What looks obvious now, won't be so obvious a few years from now. Take pics of everything..nuts, bolts, screws, gaskets, seals, brackets, wiring, etc etc LOTS OF PICS. Before you remove doors, hood, tailgate, drill 1/8 holes on the hinges thru the inner panel they are attached to, and into the door posts, etc. This will make reassembling your car back to where it was much easier...I didn't know about that...wished I had. When it comes time to reassemble, you can put a 1/8 pin thru that hole to get it back close to where it was.
Get lots of boxes, bags, tags, whatever. Screws and stuff, I put a note inside the bag as to what they went to..particully specialty stuff. Don't use a marker or ink that'll fade. Identify everything, where it went, etc.
Rich
Rich has pretty much got it nailed with that advice, I'll just add a few comments that I've picked up on over the years restoring various cars.
Never use a ball-point pen written onto masking tape labels to identify things, the ink doesn't soak into the tape and fades real quick and you just end up with lots of blank labels that mean nothing in a few years time.
Buy a box of food freezer bags from the supermarket (the ones with the zip-lock top and white panel on the front for writing notes on). A permenant marker pen sticks fast to these labels (mine were done 5 years ago by the previous owner and are still 100% readable).
Store the bagged parts in boxes, using a different box for different areas of the car (one for front suspension, one for steering etc, etc). Plastic storage boxes with snap-fit lids are good and quite cheap, cardboard boxes fall apart when you move them......
Put screws & clips etc into TWO bags in case one bag splits (I learned this the hard way).
Don't buy an already dismantled car (ask me how I know that.....).
If you get the opportunity to buy a complete but terminally rusty car of the same make, buy it (if you can). It will be invaluable for use as reference come reassembly time and will provide a source of screws and clips that you will invariably lose over time.
Great advice, my friend's custom 300 is in the paint shop. He is getting up in years, 74, and is rather old school about organization. Everything goes in a can or jar, then when he can't find stuff he raids my stock. The latest missing parts are the trim rings that go around the headlights, needs them for painting. I was using zip lock sandwich bags with a note inside, this doesn't work as the rusty dirty bolts destroy the note. I like Limeys idea better, also invest in some Ford shop manuals for your car, that is a must have. Happy thanksgiving :unitedstates: Mark
Quote from: Frankenstein57 on 2012-11-22 08:39
invest in some Ford shop manuals for your car, that is a must have.
This works even if you're not building a stocker, there will be that one question that having a factory manual and illustration answer. Really they're invaluable. Buy any technical literature you find on your car if you're building a total restoration ford service bulletins can be extra helpful as there are countless fixes to problems that were the norm when our cars were new.
Zap- :unitedstates:
Almost forgot thanks to Rich Muise a bunch of the service bulletins for our cars can now be found under the Technical Diagram header. Check them out.
.....and if all else fails, look at some of the high-dollar cars on EBay. They usually have loads of inside, outside and underneath detailed photos showing all areas. It certainly helped me figure out how the parking brake cable assemblies fitted.
Thank you all for your advice.
My car is a 57 Country Sedan 4 dr. I live in TX, but I purchased the car from a guy in NY. I bought the car for $2800, which I thought was a steal. However, my lack of foresight hit my wallet hard when it came to shipping ($1100). Now I feel obligated to see the project through, because I don't think I could break even where I sit now.
I like the organization ideas. Unfortunately, I'm finding that many of the trim bolts are missing or are not the original bolts.
I am discouraged, but once I am able to start making headway I will feel better.
With everyone's experience where would you recommend starting? (body, suspension/frame, or somewhere else?)
Mat the question is do you want to drive it while working on it or blow it apart and start on it then.
Generally the work to do first is the work that could cause damage if something goes wrong. I like to get the chassis out of the way first. Engine bay next, rust/body repair, the car will work just fine without the trim and bumpers if you want to drive it, get the jams and areas covered by glass/seals painted, put the glass in, paint the body, assemble all the trim and bumpers and then the interior.
That's a quick and dirty but is the fundamental process. The refined steps of each task vary from person to person, none is right or wrong, just how they like to do it. I find breaking each of the task into seperate "job sheets" helps prevent the overwhelmed feeling that causes many a project to grind to a halt and get put into a corner and forgotten about.
I suppose the first thing is to be honest with yourself. No matter how hard you look at it, you have to accept that the car will be twice as bad as you think when you strip it, it will cost twice as much to restore it and take (at least) twice as long to complete! If you want an out & out show car, stripping every last nut & bolt is the way to go. If you just want a presentable driver, take a different approach:
Strip out the interior, pull the motor & transmission, get it on axle stands and dis-assemble the brakes. You can now see what rust repairs are needed to get the car looking nice and being safe. Repair panels for all the usual suspect areas are available, but the quality and fit of some is questionable. Replace the panels that need replacing (brace the door apperatures first before chopping out structural parts) to get some strength back into the body, clean up the welds, prime & undercoat the undersides. Use seam sealer on all the welded joints. Take this approach going round the car will save time & money over removing the body and getting it blasted! Leaving the glass in place will save money, but might be a problem in the long run if the seals are shot.
Running gear. Check the wheel bearings & ball joints for play, if there is none, regrease them. Personnaly, I would replace the entire braking system and fit new pipes. If the car ran okay, just repaint the engine & transmission & refit them, but I'd replace the transmission seals first (if it is an automatic).
Trim can be cleaned up well using good old fashioned hard work without running to the expense of proffesional polishing, new trim clips can be sourced.
Its easy to convince yourself that you can do an entire strip and rebuild for the cost of a quick make-over, the truth is you can't, so the number one job is to decide exactly what you can afford and what you want to achieve.
Above all else, keep coming here, because this is the one-stop-shop for help and advice!
Matt...LOL...are you feeling like you just gained 3 or 4 fathers? I read your post from last night and was trying to figure out how to respond..Bill and Limey offered some great sound advise. You had mentioned your cost at this point would make it tough to break even, and I think my thoughts went immediatly to what Limey was getting at. Put bluntly, in all likliehood the closest you'll ever be to break even is right now, before you start. Nobody ever takes a project car and makes money at it..at least it's a rarety. We do it because we have a love for the hobby. For alot of us old geesers, it's about apple pie, hot dogs and the mother road. It's about a hobby we can be proud of and gain friends in the meantime...even if it's on the web. Zap told me once he considered me a good friend even though we'd never get to shake hands (he's in Oregon)..and he's right. One way to think about the expense is the new car comparison...My wife received some life insurance proceeds and was fortunate enough to be able to buy a new car earlier this year and pay cash for it..about 28K, which is probably pretty close to what I've put into my car. The thing is, my car, although I'll never recoup what I put in it, at some point in time not too far away will be worth more than her's because her's is always going to be depreciating, and mine's going the other way...although not as fast as the money put into it. Usually the guys that end up with the worst cost to value ratio are the ones like me that are replacing every little tiny thing, or the ones that are paying others to do the work. Still..look at the cost of today's automobiles that everyone else is driving...I know where I'd rather put my money. I think of it as buying a new car one piece at a time, as Johnny Cash would say.
By the way, speaking of old geesers,it's nice to see a younger generation interested in our era cars...and particularly not falling into the Chevy crowd. Also, I don't know why I had a gut feeling you were in Texas. Check this "general discusion" area, page 3 for a thread called "all us Texas guys"..I think you'll be #18. Give me an idea what general area you're in, and I'll add you to our list.
One last thing..have you found our list of vendors yet?...from the websites you can get a fair idea of parts availability or cost.
Quote from: Matt on 2012-11-20 20:59
To answer a few questions, I want this car to look presentable, but I will be using it as a daily driver. I am planning on retaining the original 312, but I want to replace the 3-speed with an AOD. I will be lowering the car with dropped spindles on the front and lowering springs in the back. I want to convert the front brakes to disc and possibly the rear as well.
I want the body to be as straight as possible, rust free, with a decent paint job without clearing out my kid's college funds. As the car sits right now there are small to large patches of rust all over the place. The floor pans all need to be replaced as well as both rockers. I need patch panels to the rear lower portion of both front fenders and to one of the rear quarter panels. The tailgate has some rust, but it appears to have a terrible bondo job on it. There is some rust to the frame of the hood, a few holes under the headlights, and of course the rust on the bottom side of the doors.
Needless to say I will never purchase another car of E-bay.
Right now I am just trying to figure out the best place to start. I want to take the body off the frame to make the frame is cleaned, painted, and sealed and everything is done right. Plus I want to replace all the body mounts.
My limited budget has left me basically just taking the car apart slowly.
Matt,
I can tell from your post you have no idea what you're getting in to. The bodywork and paint you discribe is the same that I had with my EBay car. If you can do all that yourself you'll save 20-25K. If you can't it'll cost you that much to have someone do it. If you want a nice drivetrain with a decent reliability factor you're looking at another 15-20K. Add an interior that will cost at least 10K if you can't do it yourself and you'll end up putting over 40K in a car. Before you start ( if you're on a budget) you should ask yourself, is this the car I want to drive for life. If it is, have at it. If you plan on having a car that sits most of the time and doesn't go farther than 25 miles from home and the word "cobbled-up" is in your dictionary, you can get by on about half the cost.
I've never had a car as rewarding to drive as my 57. I drive it year round, I keep it nice as possible for the miles I put on it but it's one of the best investments I've made in my life as far as enjoyment is concerned.
If you're building a car to maybe sell later and get your money back, sell it now, don't ever think you can come out ahead finacially by building one yourself. Jim
Matt,
You have received valuable advice from these guy's, I hope you realize this. I am a young buck here also, I was fortunate enough to inherit a car that was already gone through by my Father.I don't face the dawnting task of all the body work that you do, but I am triing to make it my own, with upgrades. I am redoing the interior, rewiring the car, enhancing the engine (I already swapped the Y block, for a 351w, sorry Dad), and next year will have it repainted. I too, like a lot of others on this site are on a budget. The only advice That I can offer you is to do bits at a time, as you can afford it. I set aside some money every paycheck and buy things as I can afford them, it works for me at least. Definitely use the years of experience that is on this site!
Good Luck,
Tim :unitedstates:
Sorry for the long delay in responding. My work has kept me busy most nights.
First, thanks to everyone for their advice. I unfortunately knew in my gut that the price of fixing this car up would be pricey and probably much more than I can/want to do right now. What my goal is for the car right now is to have a car that I can drive everyday while fixing it up, because I know how long it will take to get it "restored" to the level I would like. My plans had been to start with the steering/suspension, brakes, transmission, put in new floor pans, and recover the front seat so that I wasn't sitting on springs. I figured all of this and freshening up the engine would cost around 8K if I did it all myself (and with the help of a few friends).
In the long run this is a car I want to keep, but for the time being need to have it on the road and currently my wife and I only have two cars. Her car and this car.
I've gutted the interior and began removing most of the trim. Hopefully I will be able to make some headway after the start of the new year.
Thanks again for the help. I know I'll keep browsing this site for advice.
Awesome Matt..I was afraid we had scared you off...LOL...sounds like you had a pretty good idea of what you were in for. There are times when there's a ton of work involved on bodywork that is way more labor than dollars, so when the budget gets tight progress can still keep going forward. You can do this!
Rich