does anyone have a idea how big a holiday trailer you can pull behind a country sedan?
We always say with a camper/travel trailer to keep the maximum weight of the trailer equal or lower than the curb weight of the tow car. I know you guys use weight distribution hitches & the like so I guess that needs to be factored into the equation, but we don't use those over here so I have no experience of them. I will be pulling a 3500lbs trailer with my 57 Ranchero.
I've installed trailer wiring but not installed a hitch on my Ranchero yet, the chances of getting anything other than a bumper-mounted hitch is slim so I'll fabricate my own. I'm using 2", 1/4" wall thickness box section to run under the back, with brackets at either end picking up on the end of the chassis rails with 3 x 1/2" bolts either side, then one bracket in the middle that will pick up on the existing hole in the rear crossmember (about 5/8" from memory).
A 3500lb trailer will wag the tail of your ranchero. A Reese type hitch w/bars is needed for that trailer or your bumper angle will be waaay down and dangerous.
To see what it will look like put 400lbs on top your hitch ball and see what it does.
Be safe!
Ron.
I'd forgotten your trailers have set back axles & high tongue weights, over here hardly anyone owns a truck so our trailers get towed behind family sedans & wagons so the trailers have central axles & tongue weights around 170 lbs. Our trailer is below, body length of 18 1/2 feet, unladen 2755 lbs, maximum laden weight 3420 lbs with a maximum tongue weight of 176 lbs, tows really well at 60 mph behind my 2013 Mercedes C Class station wagon (2.2 litre, turbo diesel, 205 bhp with 6 sped manual transmission), the wagon has a curb weight of 3750 lbs with a maximum towing weight of 4000 lbs.
(http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/24255e415d66e02a.jpg)
How do your weight distributing hitches work? Do they distribute the weight of the hitch through the tow-cars frame somehow?
Hi, I use a Ranch Wagon with a 351W/C6 to pull my vintage trailers. I bought the wagon specifically because of my Vintage Trailer addiction. I have four Vintage (1948 to 1958) travel trailers between 15 to 24 feet long. I have made several towing observations, that I will pass along.
On my four trailers, as the trailer length increases, so does the trailer width. For example, on my two 15' trailer's the width is 6' 6", on my 17' trailer the width is 7', and on the 24' trailer it's 8' wide. When towing with the Ranch Wagon, I can easily see using the side mirrors around the small 6' 6" wide trailers. But you cannot see around the 7' wide trailer at all. I have to use slip-on mirror extenders on my F150 Crew Cab to see around the 8' wide trailer. One of my Vintage Trailer buddies pulls with a 1957 Chevy panel delivery (like our Courier's) and he fashioned wider towing mirrors from some old Honda motorcycle mirrors and made some aluminum bases on a mill. They look very original all polished up, and hold still while towing at speed. All of the bolt on, and strap on accessory towing mirrors slip/vibrate/scratch paint.
"Safe Stopping", is a bigger issue than having enough power to pull the added trailer weight. Every tow vehicle needs to have electric brake controls mounted to operate the trailer brakes. After you use electric brakes you will "become a believer" in their importance.
We have our trailers set up in the U.S. to tow at what we call 60%/40% weight distribution. Another way of saying the same thing is that on a 4000 pound gross trailer weight, you would need to have at least a 400 pound tongue weight to tow without sway. Weight distribution hitches, transfer some of the hitch tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle. The weight distribution hitches are only required on heavier trailer weights. Adjustable sway bars are a good addition on trailers with a large side exposed to cross winds.
1500 to 2500 pounds is a comfortable tow. In order to make the 2500 pound weight "comfortable to me", I had to add a rear spring leaf (now up to seven), stiffen, and re-arch the rear springs to carry the 250/300 pounds of added weight. The air shocks do almost nothing, because they are mounted at only a 45 degree angle.
I fabricated a receiver hitch from a commercially available utility truck kit (from eTrailer.com). It uses 3" thick wall square tube, and is 48" between the side plates. It tucks up nicely hidden under the rear bumper. The center section was pre-made. I made cardboard templates for my desired ends, then cut down their universal plates and drilled to my size. I also connected the new tow bar to the Ford frame in the center behind the license plate for "side to side" sway strength.
In general, my opinion is "for towing" the back section of the Ford frame is very weak, thin, and very extended past the rear end arch. You need not only a hitch that will carry the weight, but one designed to stiffen the vehicle frame structure. On my Ranch Wagon, it showed signs of having a trailer hitch welded on at some point in it's life, but most was cutoff by the time I got the car.
I also need to upgrade my steering box before I start using the Ranch Wagon for more towing. I purchased a new Borgeson power box, but have not yet installed it. The steering with the stock '57 Ford box was very vague and loose feeling, even when adjusted correctly.
My 24' 1948 Spartan trailer would look great behind your wagon. It was built by the Spartan Aircraft company, in Tulsa, OK.
Interesting and detailed reading, thanks for that.
John,
Do you have any pictures of your Vintage trailers? I, for one, would be interested in seeing them. Thanks in advance.
Pictures of vintage trailers please.
Quote from: Thor on 2015-09-01 08:48
John,
Do you have any pictures of your Vintage trailers? I, for one, would be interested in seeing them. Thanks in advance.
Sadly, your dealing with an old guy with limited technical photo ability, LOL.
I have one "completed" trailer currently for sale, it's on a trailer magazine site called VintageCamperTrailers.com and if you click on the for sale button at the top of the page you will see my trailer listed as one of the first listings. It's a "fully rebuilt, and upgraded" 1958 17' Mallard in polished aluminum and avocado green color. They have about ten photos showing the trailer. I rebuild one, or two vintage trailer's per year. I focus on 1940's to 1950's trailer's only, nothing newer. Just like in building vintage cars, after you purchase the all the materials needed "at today's prices", and consider it takes 500 to 750 hours of labor per trailer, the net profit is very small when your all done. But they are fun to do, and it keeps me very busy.
One of my recent builds was a 22' 1953 Silver Streak with a full sized "claw foot" bath tub in the bathroom. This trailer will be eventually used as a guest house in Montana.
John,
I downloaded a couple of the pictures of your 1958 Mallard from the website you listed. What a beautiful Trailer!
Very impressive. If I ever hit the lottery, you'll be one of the first I call.
reading this thread makes me want to dig thru my old VHS tapes and watch The Long Long Trailer.
John that trailer came out beautiful.
Zapato- :unitedstates:
Thanks Guys.
The trailers are done kind of like we do when we build restro mod cars. We try to keep the vintage look and flavor of the early era, but we do our best to hide the new modern amenities that are added. My wife is a NASCAR fanatic, so it has to have satellite radio for her to keep up when we are camping. It has a flat screen TV, micro wave, 12v LED lights, 12v accessory plugs for the grand kids games/phones, on demand water heater, 12v Fantastic vent fan, 12v porch and step lights, floor plan was changed and toilet was added, both city water and 12v "on demand" water pump, propane refrigerator, all new aluminum skin, Diamond Back whitewall trailer tires, etc, etc.
Quote from: Zapato on 2015-09-01 22:52
reading this thread makes me want to dig thru my old VHS tapes and watch The Long Long Trailer.
John that trailer came out beautiful.
Zapato- :unitedstates:
Last year we did a vintage trailer rally in Lone Pine, CA. It's on Hwy 395 close to Bishop. It's a very cool "one stop light" town! Anyway, that is where they filmed the Long Long Trailer film with Desi and Lucy towing the trailer with their 1954 yellow Mercury convertible. We drove up the same road to Mt. Whitney and "that switch back turn" is still there, and it's a killer turn, like 270 degrees!
John -beautiful trailer. I have been to Lone Pine many times with my modern RV. Nice little beautiful town. My wife and I stayed in a hotel in Lone Pine one time (we were without our RV) and lo and behold there was a picture on the wall of our room of my wife's grandfather with several movie stars. My wife's grandfather owned a company that rented cars to the movie studios. As you know a lot of movies were filmed in the Lone Pine area. I agree with Rich, when I hit the lotto you will be one of my first calls. It is nice to see several RV parks in California and Oregon are buying vintage trailers and renting them for use at their park (Flying Flags in Buellton, etc.) plus the big vintage trailer show in Pismo Beach. I also understand that there is a vintage trailer museum in Felton, Ca.
For those who use Facebook, search for a group called "Vintage camper trailers" they've some really cool stuff.
https://www.facebook.com/vintagecampertrailers?fref=ts
That English trailer is certainly odd looking with the single axle!
What type of tires do you use on it?
Ron.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2015-09-02 23:58
That English trailer is certainly odd looking with the single axle!
What type of tires do you use on it?
Ron.
Tires are commercial vehicle rating to take the weight, brakes are of the over-run type (as the vehicle slows the coupling depresses and activates a cable system, electric brakes aren't legal here). The brakes also feature a stability control device that detects instability (swaying/snaking) and applies the trailer brakes independently of the tow-car to bring everything back into line.
At the risk of dragging this way off topic....... I'm just curious/eager to learn about weight distribution systems! I take it the weight distribution bars are the ones I've circled red in the picture? Do they put a lot of stress in the hitch? The ball seems a long way from the rear of the car (maximum over here is about 4 inches).
Just keen to learn how trailer hauling is done elsewhere.
(http://imagehosting.rodsnsods.co.uk/24255ea173f56eba.jpg)
The weight distribution bars actually help distribute the tongue weight of the trailer to both the rear and front tires of the tow vehicle. The hitch is built to handle the bars and should not stress the hitch unless the hitch was poorly built. If the bars are used with a "tru-pivot" hitch they also help with sway control. I am not sure if "tru-pivot" hitches are still available, I used to tow with one for years but have now gone 5th wheel. I agree, the hitch depicted in the picture seems too far away from the tow vehicle, potentially leading to hitch bounce.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-09-04 21:27
The weight distribution bars actually help distribute the tongue weight of the trailer to both the rear and front tires of the tow vehicle. The hitch is built to handle the bars and should not stress the hitch unless the hitch was poorly built. If the bars are used with a "tru-pivot" hitch they also help with sway control. I am not sure if "tru-pivot" hitches are still available, I used to tow with one for years but have now gone 5th wheel. I agree, the hitch depicted in the picture seems too far away from the tow vehicle, potentially leading to hitch bounce.
Fully agree with your distribution hitch description.
There might be a need for the extra length seen in the photo?
In general, old trailer's had a very short frame tongue length compared to todays trailers. My 1948 Spartan tongue is only 24" in length, yet the trailer is eight feet wide, and has square corners. It's my assumption that the tow vehicles in the 1940's and 50's were narrower than the modern tow vehicles today. If you look at the back of a 1956 F100, and compare it to the back of my 2007 F150 the newer truck is wider, and square on the back corners. To compound the tow hitch clearance problems, old trucks had step bumpers, and hitches dealer installed that extended to the rear. Today, everything is aerodynamic and tightly tucked in, or in the case of my factory tow package on the F150, it's "under" the bumper, not behind it. When you connect an old vintage trailer, to a modern tow vehicle you will likely have a clearance problem when backing the trailer up. You cannot turn sharp enough going forward to cause a problem, but it's easy to jack knife the trailer and hit it with the taillight of the pick up while backing up. Trailer's that are flat across the front (Spartan Spartanette) are a larger problem than the Airstream/Silver Streak "bubble type" trailer shown in the photo above.
Anyone that is considering buying a vintage trailer and towing it with a 57 Ford, should buy an "extended draw bar" available from eTrailer.com, they are less than $30. They are made by Hidden Hitch, about 16" center to center, and the part number is #80232. It gives you the extra 2"-3" needed between the tow vehicle and the trailer for backing up.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2015-09-02 23:58
That English trailer is certainly odd looking with the single axle!
What type of tires do you use on it?
Ron.
Ron, Trailer Tires is a huge topic in the trailer hobby. It's almost the equal to asking a car guy which brand of oil is best, LOL. Without going into lots of details, here's a couple of concerns to consider.
Trailer tires do not wear out, they rot out from sitting, and the UV sun rays are very hard on trailer tires. Keep them covered/protected when not in use. Replace the tires at least every four years. Try your best to buy tires from fresh inventory (see date of manufacturer codes).
ST in the tire size denotes the tire as built for trailer use only. It's common knowledge that the quality of almost all trailer tires built today sucks! To compound the tire quality problem, the trailer tires are only built to handle something like a "G" speed rating for heat build up. This is only about 60-65 MPH, or just over the speed of a farm implement tire. When people start running the trailers at 70-75 MPH they over heat and you get blow outs.
Maxxis (Made in Taiwan), and Michelin are the top two quality brands of trailer tires based on user results. You sometimes need to use LT (light truck) tires to get the correct weight ratings for the load. About the highest rated 15" tire available is 1980#, if you can install 16" trailer wheels, you can easily find tires rated for 3050# (per tire). In order to have a safety margin, it's commonly believed in the hobby that you should not exceed 60% to 75% of a tire/wheel gross weight rating. It's my understanding that the method used to weight rate trailer tires is not the same as used on car and truck tires. They "over rate" the trailer tires weight ratings. The worse "user rated" trailer tires are Carlisle trailer tires.
This is the exact reason that I will be upgrading the axle assembly to a 7200# axle on my Spartan. It then allows 16" trailer wheels to be used, the higher rated tires, and 12" diameter brakes. All very important for durability on any "single axle" trailer.
I have been looking to put a hitch on my 57 RW and I remember asking the question on which hitch to buy and this is the part number for a universal hitch by Draw tite that can be modified to fit the 57'1-07
Draw tite 41091-07 there is 2 different sizes. I think I got this info from John Palmer maybe he will confirm my part number and tell us which one he bought the 44" or 60".
John - you are so correct about changing trailer tires every four years. My 35 foot 5th wheel had plenty of tread on the tires, were always covered (as is the whole trailer) but sure enough one of the tires had a tread separation doing about 50 mph. The tires were 5 years old. The separated tread did some pretty serious damage to the wheel well. I am just glad no damage to the floor and the trailer stayed under control so I could get it stopped safely. John, what is your opinion of Goodyear trailer tires - 16 inch, two axle)? Thanks. Bill Whitmore
Quote from: Raven Rider on 2015-09-08 18:22
I have been looking to put a hitch on my 57 RW and I remember asking the question on which hitch to buy and this is the part number for a universal hitch by Draw tite that can be modified to fit the 57'1-07
Draw tite 41091-07 there is 2 different sizes. I think I got this info from John Palmer maybe he will confirm my part number and tell us which one he bought the 44" or 60".
It's been a while since I did my hitch, and had to go back and look it up.
Etrailer is a great source IMO. They have a wide product selection, a great site with good information, they always seem to have what I need in stock, and get it delivered very quickly. They are like the Summit Racing for Trailer Guys. They ship scary fast.
They ship $100, or higher orders with free freight. That's a huge savings on something this heavy.
I used the Drawtite kit #41991-07 Class IV, with the 62" long cross bar. It's currently listed at $184.90 I ended up cutting off about 6" from each end. The cross bar sticks through my end plates about 3/4" on each side for a good weld penetration. I made a "L" shaped plate to bolt the center section to the rear frame cross member by the license plate. The over all finished width is about 49", and I had it all powder coated after welding. Even though this kit had the smaller universal end plates, but they are still HUGE! They offer a great start for your custom 1957 Ford brackets, and have a nice stiffening bend. Just figure out how you want them mounted, make some cardboard templates and use a cutoff wheel or a Saw-z-all to reduce their size to a more appropriate car part. This is all heavy wall material, and you will need a good 220V mig welder for weld penetration. It goes without saying that you need to grind off the factory powder coating before you weld. You will also need a drill press to drill 1/2" and 5/8" holes.
I have all my vehicles and trailers wired with seven way light connectors, in the industry wiring standard pattern to make them universal for towing. This allows for electric brake connections, and also a battery charge wire for the trailer battery. If you do the same, make sure you remember to order, and then weld on the seven way plug terminal mounting bracket. eTrailer sells them for only about $5 making it cheaper to buy one, than to make the bracket. You will also need a 5/8" couple pin, also very cheap.
Because the hitch will be tucked up under the bumper, and behind/below the license plate you might want to consider an extended coupler. This is very important for towing vintage trailer's which have a very short frame tongue. Hidden Hitch #80232 at $29.95 is 16" long and a good choice. I re-drilled mine with a new 5/8" pin hole at 13" (center to center) for the perfect length.
Let us know how this project goes.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-09-08 22:29
John - you are so correct about changing trailer tires every four years. My 35 foot 5th wheel had plenty of tread on the tires, were always covered (as is the whole trailer) but sure enough one of the tires had a tread separation doing about 50 mph. The tires were 5 years old. The separated tread did some pretty serious damage to the wheel well. I am just glad no damage to the floor and the trailer stayed under control so I could get it stopped safely. John, what is your opinion of Goodyear trailer tires - 16 inch, two axle)? Thanks. Bill Whitmore
Bill, What is the old saying about any advice is worth exactly what you pay for it? My advice is free, not scientific, and comes from sitting around the camp fire with other trailer owners about ten times each year. The topic of trailer tires is always a hotly discussed one. Your correct, a trailer tire with tread separation can cause much more in body damage than the cost of a new tire, and per Murphy's Law they never go bad at a safe place where you can pull over.
I have never heard any good "first hand" user reports from trailer owners that have run Good Year Marathon trailer tires. The same bad rap goes with all the Carlisle Trailer tires.
The two brands that I hear consistently good reports about for use on trailers are Maxxis (Made in Taiwan), and Michelin tires. Michelin does not make a specific tire for trailers. The larger trailers all use LT light truck tires, as long as the weight rating is high enough. LT tires also have the added benefit of higher air pressure for cooler running. For any of the larger trailers you want/need 16" trailer wheels and tires because they offer the much higher gross weight ratings. You never want to use all of the weight rating, maybe no more than 75%, to keep a safety margin, hope that makes sense?
Sorry for your damages.
John thanks for confirming the part number and size also thanks for the nice instructions
John - thanks for your advice. My 5th wheel weighs 16,000 lbs which is right at the weight limit. I am currently using Goodyear 16" inch tires (don't remember the exact size) inflated to 100psi and never exceed 60 mph. In about 1 year I will need tires (4 years will be up then) and I will check into Michelin tires. Unfortunately I still have doubts about items made in Taiwan or China. Thanks again.
Quote from: BWhitmore on 2015-09-09 15:16
John - thanks for your advice. My 5th wheel weighs 16,000 lbs which is right at the weight limit. I am currently using Goodyear 16" inch tires (don't remember the exact size) inflated to 100psi and never exceed 60 mph. In about 1 year I will need tires (4 years will be up then) and I will check into Michelin tires. Unfortunately I still have doubts about items made in Taiwan or China. Thanks again.
A gross weight of 16,000#, minus maybe 2K# for the tongue weight, makes it 14,000#, or 7K# per axle, making it 3500# weight per tire.
The new Dexter steel 16" trailer wheels that I'm buying are rated for 3050# per wheel. Your tires will be maxed out at 3500#.
So.........It looks to me that it needs to "loose some weight", or it needs a third trailer axle to carry the weight. The easy way to loose weight is to not carry any excess fresh or grey water (@8# per gallon) until you get to the camp site (assuming it has full hook ups).
Just a random thought.
Most of our trailers are now being supplied with commercial (8 ply) tyres made by Hankook, a manufacturer in South Korea. Got to say they seem pretty good. We change our trailer every three years so don't have to worry about the tyres ageing but whenever it's going to be unused for more than a couple of months I take the wheels off and store them in a dark shed.
I once followed a single axle trailer down the freeway and they had a blow out at about 60mph, lost control, the trailer fish-tailed, jack-knifed & turned over, taking the tow car with it.