Guys, I need to decide on a fuel pump for my EFI 351/5.8 L (1995 ) motor that will go in my Ranchero. Ranchero and Station Wagon gas tanks, as you know, are shaped differently. I'm interested in knowing what pump Forum Members have used that have this style Ranchero / Station Wagon tank. I have a new Ranchero / Station Wagon tank and new fuel lines. 3/8' supply line and 5/16 return line. What "In The Tank" pump has been used successfully? As well, I'd like to know about rail mounted fuel pumps that Forum Members have used with EFI set ups.
What have you used? And what are the pluses and minuses of either set up?
I always get great advice here.............so fire away.
Thanks
John
If your current tank is good there is a rail mounted pump from Rangers that will do the job as well. It needs to be as close to the pickup as possible as it does not "suck" well.
John if you look at my "Ranchero build" thread you can see how I installed a 94 F150 rear tank in the car. It is a fuel injection tank, the pump will meet the requirements for the 351 EFI.
John. When I was researching fuel pumps, I generally found info that said rail mounted pumps could be made to work, but the key words here are "made to work"....often guys had issues they had to go back and resolve....such as adding an inline fuel reervoir just before the pump so it didn't run dry on hard acceleration. As one member put it, running dry when you're trying to get on a Socal freeway is not good. I don't think anybody questions the best way to go is in-tank if it is practical for your application.
I can't answer any wagon style tank questions...don't even know for sure what an oem wagon/Ranchero tank looks like.
The Mustang forum guys like the Walbro pumps, that is what I had put in mine from Tanks Inc.. I've had zero fuel supply issues. As far as flow capacity, I went with a pump that was one step higher than the recommended. My 4.6 has a built in fuel pressure regulator on the fuel supply log on the engine, so having more fuel supply than needed was not an issue.
I went with 3/8 lines both ways because one 25 foot roll did both (NiCopp), of course with fairly long flex lines at both ends. Stainless braided in the engine compartment and goodyear multi cored at the tank for the flexible connections.
www.tanksinc.com has lots of info. Their in tank pump kit is what I used, but in particular look at their recessed installation plate/box.....http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=370/category_id=167/mode=prod/prd370.htm
Once again all the above is in a passenger car setup...hopefully some or all of the info works for the Ranchero as well.
if you check my 4.6 install under engine swaps you can see what i will be using
Quote from: canadian_ranchero on 2016-06-30 10:36
if you check my 4.6 install under engine swaps you can see what i will be using
Thanks for the information and lead on where to look for your swap.
The external electric pumps seem to have issues with overheating when driving on hot days. As mentioned earlier, the rail mount is a get it running solution, buy a new tank and then figure out how to put an electric pump in side the tank with some sort of baffle. Electric pumps mounted in the tank without some sort of a baffle have the issue of stalling and running out of fuel when cornering with a low tank.
We recently did a 55 & 57 Ranch Wagon 5.0 EFI installs where we trimmed the original trunk floor, made a panel and intalleded an aftermarket '57 cheby tank with built in baffles and they both work very well now. The cheby tank has the filler on the same sid eas the wagon/ranchero.
Quote from: suede57ford on 2016-07-02 23:37
The external electric pumps seem to have issues with overheating when driving on hot days. As mentioned earlier, the rail mount is a get it running solution, buy a new tank and then figure out how to put an electric pump in side the tank with some sort of baffle. Electric pumps mounted in the tank without some sort of a baffle have the issue of stalling and running out of fuel when cornering with a low tank.
We recently did a 55 & 57 Ranch Wagon 5.0 EFI installs where we trimmed the original trunk floor, made a panel and intalleded an aftermarket '57 cheby tank with built in baffles and they both work very well now. The cheby tank has the filler on the same sid eas the wagon/ranchero.
Thanks for your input and advice. I have a friend that experienced an over heating issue with a rail mounted electric pump. He went with a new tank and in the tank pump. Problem solved.
At this point I like the "Tanks" , in the tank pump. I believe it is workable / doable.
This is what I did with a wagon tank
One more
Quote from: dgasman on 2016-07-05 22:06
One more
THANK YOU!!! That looks great and would be relatively easy to do.
Now, can I please ask what you used...........what brand etc. is the sending unit and what brand is the fuel pump. Also, since you have already made this conversion, what "issues" or "problems" are there in doing this? What is there to know about doing this that is not obvious?
Many Thanks
John
John...I'll ask a few specific questions because I know what I had to deal with on mine. The way his top pump plate is made may be better for the wagon/Rancheros than the Tanks Inc unit I used because his has the fittings at 90* from the top, whereas mine, if I remember correctly, had the ports facing up so I needed room for right angle fittings. Downside to that is I'm not sure if a roll over vent can be installed.
Dgasman: Nice set up! Thanks for posting. It would be nice to get as much info for future reference on this as posible, so I'll ask some questions....
1. Is the wagon tank the same as a Ranchero tank?
2. is there access from the top for plumbing and wiring installation and maintenance?
3. is there enough room for the vent fittings and tubing as you have the units oriented because of it's closeness to the sending unit?
4. is there a baffle/slosh pan on this unit?
5. I assume the smaller of the two units is the sending unit, is it available in different ohms ranges?
6. any issues with routing the fuel lines that could have been resolved by another location or orientation if posible. (as I had on mine, lol)
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-07-06 08:34
John...I'll ask a few specific questions because I know what I had to deal with on mine. The way his top pump plate is made may be better for the wagon/Rancheros than the Tanks Inc unit I used because his has the fittings at 90* from the top, whereas mine, if I remember correctly, had the ports facing up so I needed room for right angle fittings. Downside to that is I'm not sure if a roll over vent can be installed.
Dgasman: Nice set up! Thanks for posting. It would be nice to get as much info for future reference on this as posible, so I'll ask some questions....
1. Is the wagon tank the same as a Ranchero tank?
2. is there access from the top for plumbing and wiring installation and maintenance?
3. is there enough room for the vent fittings and tubing as you have the units oriented because of it's closeness to the sending unit?
4. is there a baffle/slosh pan on this unit?
5. I assume the smaller of the two units is the sending unit, is it available in different ohms ranges?
6. any issues with routing the fuel lines that could have been resolved by another location or orientation if posible. (as I had on mine, lol)
Rich, thanks for your questions . The more I know the better.
I can answer only one question here that you asked.........yes the Ranchero Tank is the same as a Wagon Tank.
I'll now wait for a reply from Dgasman. I really like what he has done here to solve this issue.
John
The pump is from aeromotive , one of their phantom in tank units. The sender is from classic intsterments , it's one of the tube senders not a swing arm type of sender and they come in different lengths and ohms . The only issue and it really isn't a issue is you have to remove the pick up tube in the tank and remove the the bulkhead fitting on the side of the tank . Once you cut off the top you will spread the sides of the tank out , this will give you more flat area for the pump module . There is room to install the fuel lines with the tank installed but it's easier to install with the tank down . The wagons vent from the gas cap so you really don't need to use the vent on the pump module . I did install a secondary vent rollover valve in the fuel filler tube. There is no problem with fuel line routing and with the wagon tank this is the only place you can install the pump. This is not a inexpensive route to go but it is less than a custom tank and WAY better than a external pump . I know because I have been there and done that
Here is a pic of the fill tube that I have the vent line installed on . I installed the A N fitting for my fuel return when I had the external fuel pump on the car .
Quote from: dgasman on 2016-07-06 13:45
Here is a pic of the fill tube that I have the vent line installed on . I installed the A N fitting for my fuel return when I had the external fuel pump on the car .
Dgasman..............great information sir. Thank you. a couple of follow up questions. The vent you installed on the filler tube......you used a rollover valve in a flexible tube with AN fittings..........brought it up as high as you could in the fender and then did a 180 degree bend? And by doing this you can eliminate the vent on the fuel pump module.........correct?
As I have not been "inside" my tank, I'm not aware of the bulkhead fitting you refer to. I guess I'll see if once I cut the portion off the top as you did. Same for the pick up tube? I'm not clear on your description of cutting off the top and "you will spread the sides of the tank out" . Can you further explain this. Are you saying hammer and dolly work to make room for the pump and sender?
Many thanks !
John
Quote from: dgasman on 2016-07-06 13:27
The pump is from aeromotive , one of their phantom in tank units. The sender is from classic intsterments , it's one of the tube senders not a swing arm type of sender and they come in different lengths and ohms . The only issue and it really isn't a issue is you have to remove the pick up tube in the tank and remove the the bulkhead fitting on the side of the tank . Once you cut off the top you will spread the sides of the tank out , this will give you more flat area for the pump module . There is room to install the fuel lines with the tank installed but it's easier to install with the tank down . The wagons vent from the gas cap so you really don't need to use the vent on the pump module . I did install a secondary vent rollover valve in the fuel filler tube. There is no problem with fuel line routing and with the wagon tank this is the only place you can install the pump. This is not a inexpensive route to go but it is less than a custom tank and WAY better than a external pump . I know because I have been there and done that
what was wrong with the external pump?i may have to rethink my pump set up
external pumps are prone to overheating with extended use and will sometimes fail. the in tank pumps are considered better, because they are cooled by the fuel in the tank.
The vent and rollover valve is the same piece and is mounted straight up high in the fender well. there is room to use the vent hole on the module with a 90 an fitting , I did not use it because I already had the fitting in the filler tube . look at tanks inc web sight and you will se the type of valve I used
There should be two bulkhead fittings on your tank ,this is the fitting that the factory fuel line attaches to. the bulkhead fitting on the outer side of the tank need to be removed , if you look closely at the picture you can see the plug that was welded on the side of the tank were the fitting was.
look at your tank and you will see that it kind of tapers to the top , all I did after cutting the top off was to spread the two long sides of the tank top out and made them more square and I just used my hands .
external pumps do work just not as well
1. they do tend to overheat and make noise
2. they do not really pull a vacuum that is why the need to be close to the tank and mounted low
3. when the fuel level gets below 2/3 full there is more chance that they will starve for fuel because most fuel tanks do not have baffles so there is more fuel slosh and if your going up hills this will make the engine run lean and or stall .
4. if the car is parked for a while with our new blended fuels the pumps will gum up from fuel evaporation and not work any more .
this is just my opinion on external pumps as I have had all of these thing happen to me
Excellent detail...thanks for posting all the info.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-07-06 23:27
Excellent detail...thanks for posting all the info.
What Rich said................X2
Thanks........great detail. You have been a lot of help, and I appreciate it.
John
Quote from: dgasman on 2016-07-05 22:01
This is what I did with a wagon tank
dgasman.......again thank you for sharing this information. I'm leaning towards doing this modification and have a couple of additional questions. As I look inside my reproduction tank through the sender opening, I can see the tubing going from the bulkhead fitting, just below the sender opening, over to the pick up tube connection on the lower front of the tank. When I cut the tank open as you did, could I just cut that tubing out and fill the two hole with a threaded plug...........thereby avoiding cutting out the threaded openings and welding in a filler patch? My concern is untreated metal ( The two patches and the required welding ) and the rust that I would expect to form in the foreseeable future. Same concern with the panel I'll create to mount the pump and the sender at the top of the tank. Did you treat the inside of the tank after you finished the welding? If so, what did you use?
Thanks
John
John...I POR-15'd the outside welded areas. Do not por-15 the inside though...the surface is too slick for the por-15 to stick.
John, There are several pretreatments for paint prep that will work very well. I use a rust "transformer" from Lowes, it is designed to treat rust and mixed 4 - 1 as a pretreatment. Seal up all the openings in the tank, pour the mixture in, shake, rattle, and roll the tank. Drain and wash really well with Dawn and rinse again. I use the wife's OLD blow drier to dry the tank insides as fast as possible.
The replacement panels that I put in the Ranchero need to have the edges sanded back to clean steel before they would weld up cleanly. They have been subjected to numerous washings and drying cycles with only the treatment on them with not the first sign of rust.
Now having said all of that I expect the insides of the tank will be as resistant to rust as the exposed sheet metal has been. The Edsel tank is still clean after a year and it had the treatment.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2016-07-14 08:54
John...I POR-15'd the outside welded areas. Do not por-15 the inside though...the surface is too slick for the por-15 to stick.
Thanks Rich.............I'll do that to the outside as you suggest.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2016-07-14 20:26
John, There are several pretreatments for paint prep that will work very well. I use a rust "transformer" from Lowes, it is designed to treat rust and mixed 4 - 1 as a pretreatment. Seal up all the openings in the tank, pour the mixture in, shake, rattle, and roll the tank. Drain and wash really well with Dawn and rinse again. I use the wife's OLD blow drier to dry the tank insides as fast as possible.
The replacement panels that I put in the Ranchero need to have the edges sanded back to clean steel before they would weld up cleanly. They have been subjected to numerous washings and drying cycles with only the treatment on them with not the first sign of rust.
Now having said all of that I expect the insides of the tank will be as resistant to rust as the exposed sheet metal has been. The Edsel tank is still clean after a year and it had the treatment.
Thanks for the advice. I have one experience cleaning and painting the inside of the tank on another car I own. The product I used in that tank is from Bill Hirsch and it has done just fine............and that was 20 years ago. Bill Hirsch states that his product is compatible with 100% ethanol or 100% alcohol.........not that I would be using either.
But, I'm always looking for a better product or a better way to do things, so I ask the Forum and always get informative responses like yours and Rich's and dgasman's
Thanks
John
His tank sealer is an excellent product. When I was working cars for other people I used it to seal four tanks with great success.
I sealed the tank on my 36 in 1980. Don't remember who's product it was (I think Eastwood) but the tank has been trouble free for all these years.
Given the "lessons learned" over the years I recommend using a metal etching product first, drying the tank with alcohol, and then sealing.