57 Fairlane w/272. I returned the heat control system back to original with the correct vacuum switch and vacuum operated control valve. Had to replace my "new" heater control valve after it started leaking. It's now leaking again so I'm thinking of replacing the whole core and move the control valve to the eng compartment, tired of antifreeze getting on the carpet. Has anyone swapped cores with something else? If so what type of core did you use? Any other advice or recommendations would be appreciated.
I wished the A/C half of my Vintage air system worked half as good as the heater. I do believe I've seen a heat only unit in the Vintage Air catalog.
A thing that came to light a few years ago was grounding the core. Seams electrolysis corrosion will eat them. Easy to do, just put a wire under the hose just after the clamp and then double clamp and tie it to ground. Don't know if it is an urban myth or true but I have it on all my early stuff and have no heater core issues.
I'll keep the grounding thing in mind when I put it back together, thanks. I haven't heard that before.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2018-10-12 14:50
Don't know if it is an urban myth or true but I have it on all my early stuff and have no heater core issues.
It's true and correct.
Another trick is to put a flow restrictor in the pressure line to slow down coolant pressure/flow. FORD did this on POLICE and late HP.
What would a flow restrictor look like... How would you accomplish that?
Photos Attached-
Is the replacement heater control valve actually leaking and is it a repro?
Just a note of interest. I have a number of these valves and some Mercury also ( same, but a longer bracket),Plus some control valves. They all appear to be of the same manufacturer regardless of which box they came in, be it Ford, Dole, ,Robertshaw. Perfection, and I think others. Most boxes are disintergrated and there are no manufacturers marks on any valves. Also I've found that it is better to use silicone instead of the rubber gasket which can deteroiate to mount to heater core.
Quote from: dungbeetle07 on 2018-10-12 12:17
57 Fairlane w/272.
I returned the heat control system back to original with the correct vacuum switch and vacuum operated control valve. Had to replace my "new" heater control valve after it started leaking.
It's now leaking again so I'm thinking of replacing the whole core and move the control valve to the eng compartment, tired of antifreeze getting on the carpet. Has anyone swapped cores with something else? If so what type of core did you use? Any other advice or recommendations would be appreciated.
You are describing the 57/58 FRESH AIR HEATER, correct (Ill below)?
Is it the actual HTR CONTROL VALVE (18495) leaking (bad diaphragm) or where it attaches to the HEATER CORE (18476) with rubber seal? I have read where repros are defective. Just trying to confirm.
If determined to defaet the OEM design, maybe considering taking to COMPETENT radiator shop and see if new inlet tube can be fitted entirely eliminating the OEM valve and put a control valve hidden in the inlet heater hose?
Quote from: thomasso on 2018-10-14 16:44
Just a note of interest. I have a number of these valves and some Mercury also ( same, but a longer bracket),Plus some control valves. They all appear to be of the same manufacturer regardless of which box they came in, be it Ford, Dole, ,Robertshaw. Perfection, and I think others. Most boxes are disintergrated and there are no manufacturers marks on any valves.
Also I've found that it is better to use silicone instead of the rubber gasket which can deteroiate to mount to heater core.
You have an actual FORD NOS 18495 valve? If so, no identifying stamping nos.?
It would be hard to say who the original FORD vendor was but what you have (all suppliers) could be invaluable to owners/restorers.
The DOLE control valves are marked. So i'm assuming they were the manufacturer of all. None of the others are marked. The original boxes are all the same except for logos and are of very poor quality, most have disintegrated over the years. I know that the later Ford ones were in corrugated boxes. i don't have any in Ford boxes. None of the vacuum control valves have markings other than Pat. Pend. or date codes. All are for sale.
You can have them recored. The stock 57 heater is great, the one in my car has never been apart.
I wouldn't restrict the water flow, there is no reason to.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Thomasso, you don't happen to have a factory air valve do you? I could use one for the Coral Sand car.
Sorry Ray. That would be B7A 18495 C. Air conditioning was mighty scarce around here in the 50s,
I followed this post with interest but never seen the problem. This winter's Raunch Wagon upgrades include Vintage Air so I removed the heater to be surprised to see the heater core bulged very close to bursting. My first impression was that it had frozen but I always run 60/40 coolant and the car is stored in a heated garage. Then I remembered this post. The pictures show the outer two tubes are bowed and nearly three times their original size. About five years ago, I upgraded the wagon from dealer installed heater (which didn't work and the core was toast). The core, regulator and valve were all new pieces when installed. When the new stuff was installed, the wagon had the original 292 but two years ago was swapped to 351w. During warm weather, I shut the water valve off. But in early spring and fall, the water valve is open and I occassionally rev the motor past 5k. Either I didn't pack the backing material in tightly enough or the Windsor puts out too much coolant flow/pressure. The wagon does run a 16# radiator cap to raise the boiling point.
After I noticed coolant leaking from mine, I bypassed it for a couple years, finally took it apart. Noticed the leak was from the gasket where the valve attaches to the core, I cleaned it thoroughly and used a high quality silicone, no problems since.
I realize this thread is older but brings out an important point. If one has a HIGH REV PERF ENG, the coolant speed and temp may rise causing this type of damage. That is why FORD released coolant flow restrictors on much later HP cars.
The restrictor(s) were used in two ways, one to slow coolant flow before the heater core and the other to increase coolant hang time installed after the core to draw more heat from the coolant.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2018-12-18 12:02
I followed this post with interest but never seen the problem. This winter's Raunch Wagon upgrades include Vintage Air so I removed the heater to be surprised to see the heater core bulged very close to bursting. My first impression was that it had frozen but I always run 60/40 coolant and the car is stored in a heated garage. Then I remembered this post. The pictures show the outer two tubes are bowed and nearly three times their original size. About five years ago, I upgraded the wagon from dealer installed heater (which didn't work and the core was toast). The core, regulator and valve were all new pieces when installed. When the new stuff was installed, the wagon had the original 292 but two years ago was swapped to 351w. During warm weather, I shut the water valve off. But in early spring and fall, the water valve is open and I occassionally rev the motor past 5k. Either I didn't pack the backing material in tightly enough or the Windsor puts out too much coolant flow/pressure.
The wagon does run a 16# radiator cap to raise the boiling point.
Quote from: KULTULZ on 2018-10-13 12:09
Another trick is to put a flow restrictor in the pressure line to slow down coolant pressure/flow. FORD did this on POLICE and late HP.
May be related or not, but the heater core in my 59 never leaked before, but the first time I ran the new 428 thru the gears, coolant starter running out of the heater box. I just assumed that having a 60 year old part fail was not terribly uncommon. Are these heater hose restrictors available from Ford still, a junkyard item or.....? Do you install one in both hoses, or just one?
They were designed purposely for the situation you found yourself in.
They are still available, one 5/8in and the other 3/4in. They are plastic and must be secured with a hose clamp on the outside heater hose where you place them. FORD wants them placed nearest the engine hose outlet (pressure).
There are also available aluminum restrictors that may be more reliable.
GOOGLE FORD HEATER CORE INLET RESTRICTORS and it should give you needed info. If not, get back.
KULTULZ...........Just wanted to say thanks for all the input you've been adding to our forum lately. It is much appreciated. I know you've been a long time member......two years before me........but previously just an occasional poster. I'm sure everyone appreciates your input, many times you've made me wish we had a "like" button. Like we tell Joe and Dave on their pics postings, most of the time a lot of us avoid adding posts to say thank you because we don't want to add unnecessary "clutter" to a thread.
Rich
don
't now what you guys will say about this, but, i've worked on a few an i'm tired of gong under the dash or under the hood to fix a leaking heater valve, so i just unhooked it , don't use the heater any way, if need be, easly to hook back up
QuoteKULTULZ...........Just wanted to say thanks for all the input you've been adding to our forum lately. It is much appreciated.
THANX!I am just a car-nut like everyone else here. A 57 FORD has always been my favorite although it has been quite a while since I had one.
Man it is great to learn something new (everyday)! I have never heard of a heater restrictor but that explains my heater issue that I fought for a couple of years. To solve the problem I simply removed the heater but I live where a car heater is not truly needed very often. That was NOT my first choice but since heaters were optional it gave me a little more to talk about in "show and tell". Thanks for the info!
Lynn, I live in Canada, my first 63 years in British Columbia on the Pacific Ocean, in October we moved to Nova Scotia, on the Atlantic, so it does get cold up here in the winter. However, my 59 is a fair weather car, it`s been parked in the garage since mid November, and likely won`t leave the garage until March at the earliest, depending on weather. But even still, some evenings it can get a bit chilly, or the windshield fogs up, so having a functional heater is a plus. I know 57 & 58 heaters use a vacuum operated valve on the heater core, but in 59 the vacuum valve disappeared. So I guess on a 57/8 the heater core can stay full of non moving coolant with the heater off, but on a 59, it is flowing thru the core whenever the engine is running? I have seen some Fords with a manual valve on the intake manifold fitting to close of flow to the heater, and on some later vehicles, a cable operated valve to do the same function. I don`t recall my original 332 having either, so I guess it was constantly circulating thru the core. And Kultulz, I remember you from the old FE Forum, this is Rory with the Fairmont drag car that ran with 427 & 428 FE power for over 30 years. You may remember from there.
My heater originally had a valve with a filled capillary tube that was coiled up in front of the heater core. It had no vacuum valve. I bought a new valve that was vacuum operated so I had to buy the vacuum actuator. The heater still leaked. I bought another heater core and pressure tested it, but it leaked too... Ford had (2) designs for heater control valves but my heater still got hot when the valve (either design) was supposed to be closed. So my heater stayed hot and always leaked. I disconnected the hoses but left it installed. Finally when I was putting my A/C in I removed it (that made the A/C install easier). I bought the block off plates and the heater delete plate for the dash. I might put in a dealer installed heater if I can find one and I would use a manual valve under the hood.
Lynn.........I have a dealer installed unit if you want it. I had packed it up to ship to Jeff Norwell, but he decided to go another direction. It wasn't leaking when I used the car as a dd in '03. That's all I can tell you about it. You can have it for shipping costs only. 40ish??
You got room for it? where did you put your A/C evaporator, and why on earth didn't you get an A/C with heat?
QuoteAnd Kultulz, I remember you from the old FE Forum, this is Rory with the Fairmont drag car that ran with 427 & 428 FE power for over 30 years. You may remember from there.
Yes, I remember. FE FORUM participation was quite a while ago.
Did you find the info you needed?
ADDENDUM (Fr. For I Forgot) BTW - Are you still racing? I bet a 428CJ is a treat in a '57 ... :002:
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2020-12-26 14:47
My heater originally had a valve with a filled capillary tube that was coiled up in front of the heater core. It had no vacuum valve. I bought a new valve that was vacuum operated so I had to buy the vacuum actuator. The heater still leaked. I bought another heater core and pressure tested it, but it leaked too... Ford had (2) designs for heater control valves but my heater still got hot when the valve (either design) was supposed to be closed. So my heater stayed hot and always leaked. I disconnected the hoses but left it installed. Finally when I was putting my A/C in I removed it (that made the A/C install easier). I bought the block off plates and the heater delete plate for the dash. I might put in a dealer installed heater if I can find one and I would use a manual valve under the hood.
I use the same valve Lynn described, no vacuum. Most of the time when people experience heat still coming out or leaking problems with either type of valve being used is because they have attached the heater hoses incorrectly. The heater has to fill from the bottom not the top like a radiator. If filled from the top hot water can still enter and it also causes air pockets and the heated air pockets expand and build high pressure.
Jim, I am pretty sure I had mine hooked up correctly, BUT.....
Rich, I sent you a PM. I wanted a vintage looking under dash A/C. I actually bought components separately and built my own.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2020-12-27 09:18
Jim, I am pretty sure I had mine hooked up correctly, BUT.....
You probably did. I just added as general info for anyone reading while it was on my mind :001:
I have seen a heater core that doesn't have a valve mounted the same way as the original factory heater. Maybe this would work with an inline control valve of some type...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Heater-Core-Ford-49-49600-1/174311724469?fits=Year%3A1957%7CMake%3AFord&hash=item2895c9d5b5:g:YJ8AAOSwo4Re38GI
Quote from: KULTULZ on 2020-12-27 01:46
Yes, I remember. FE FORUM participation was quite a while ago.
Did you find the info you needed?
ADDENDUM (Fr. For I Forgot) BTW - Are you still racing? I bet a 428CJ is a treat in a '57 ... :002:
Yes, I am still racing the same Fairmont that I have had for the past 35 years.The car only has a roll bar, so when I started running a few 9 second ETs with it, the Tech guys told me to either slow the car down, or upgrade the chassis/cage and get all the extra mandatory safety equipment, chassis cert, etc. Since I didn`t want to spend several thousand dollars, which would also make it much harder to get strapped into the car by myself, I elected to slow the car down. So I pulled the 427FE out, and installed the 331 SBF from my 85 Mustang. Still runs mid to low 10s, which if fun to drive with the 4 speed. I sold most of my FE stuff since I was making a 4000 mile move across Canada, and didn`t want to make the trip more than once. I don`t have a 57, but I do have a 59 2 door sedan with a 428 CJ and Toploader 4 speed. Mostly just a street cruiser, but I will race it occasionally. Just had it out to the track once this year, between wheelspin, wheelhop, and carb issues, it only ran a 14.3ET, well off what it should run once I get if figured out a bit. I will look into those heater restrictors, once I am able to find a new heater core. Do you have a part number, or vehicle application that uses them with a 5/8" heater hose? Do I need 2, or just 1? And if one is sufficent , which side does it go into?
QuoteI will look into those heater restrictors, once I am able to find a new heater core. Do you have a part number, or vehicle application that uses them with a 5/8" heater hose? Do I need 2, or just 1? And if one is sufficent , which side does it go into?
I am at a disadvantage here as my main computor is presently in ICU and I don't have all my references.
The yellow restrictor is a 5/8" I believe. Here is a source - https://lmr.com/item/LRS-18599A/79-04-Mustang-Heater-Core-Flow-Restrictor
Make sure you ask before purchase. The restrictor is placed in the supply side heater hose as close to the engine as possible and has to be held in place with a clamp on the outside of the hose to keep it from moving.
Here is a discussion you might enjoy - https://www.fordfe.com/anybody-use-a-restrictor-in-their-heater-hoses-t75903.html
It would have broken my heart to part with all that FE parts like you did.
Kultulz, yes, it was rather tough watching a lot of FE stuff that I had been gathering over many years getting loaded up and leaving, but in a way, it was also strangely a relief. Much of this FE stuff I had just been sitting for many years, the standard bore 428 CJ that I installed in my 59 had been sitting in my garage over 30 years, and the heads on it I have owned since 1975, so in one way, it felt good to years finally be putting these parts to use, rather than have them stay in the garage for many more (hopefully!) years, doing nothing, until my wife has to deal with it all in an estate sale! Selling my 427 was the toughest part, to finally have a real 427 side oiler after so many years of wanting one . But again, the last time I used the 427 was 4 or 5 years ago, and to ship thousands of pounds of mostly cast iron engine parts 4000 miles would be quite costly, and as it was, my truck, trailer and shipping container were already overloaded. Sad thing is, I was constantly complaining about having no working room in the garages that I had over the years, with all this stuff, now I finally have a shop big enough that stuff wouldn`t be in the way, but most of the stuff is gone! I will certainly look into the heater hose restrictor, although I wonder if I could make a bushing of the same ID that could be pressed into the heater hose tube on the engine, to reduce the flow, and eliminate the appearance of an extra hose clamp that would be used to hold the plastic restrictor in the hose?
Quote... although I wonder if I could make a bushing of the same ID that could be pressed into the heater hose tube on the engine, to reduce the flow, and eliminate the appearance of an extra hose clamp that would be used to hold the plastic restrictor in the hose?
It makes sense to me. You must be as as CDO (correct alphabetical order of OCD) as I am.
Don't forget, FORD HP engines of the late sixties also used a crimped HEATER OUTLET FITTING (18599) @ the intake manifold to lessen flow rate.
I finally remembered to take a picture of the manifold heater hose nipple (pressure side). The nipple is on 1967ish 427 side oiler MR with Tunnel Wedge intake. Was this fitting original? Who knows? I have seen these nipples on other FEs but mostly pre-'65. I think heater cores got stronger in the late '60s. Not saying these didn't exist, but I just never seen one on Windsor or 385 engines. The hole is choked down to 1/4".
I'm sorry, I didn't fully explain what I described. CRS.
Below is a photo of what I was describing as installed on a BOSS 302 engine of the period. The inlet was crimped slowing the flow/pressure to the heater core.
This design simplifies the concept.
That nipple was on all three Bird 390s I built, even the 65 I have. Never understood what was up with the small diameter outlet before. Just put it back on because it was there when they came apart.
This whole thread is incredible! I have never heard ANYTHING about ANY of this.... Is it just an Ford issue?
QuoteIs it just an Ford issue?
I don't know for sure but would think the problem was prevalent across all HP makes.
This has been really interesting. My FE has no type of restriction, I'll have to look into that, seems like a good idea.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2020-12-29 15:48
I finally remembered to take a picture of the manifold heater hose nipple (pressure side). The nipple is on 1967ish 427 side oiler MR with Tunnel Wedge intake. Was this fitting original? Who knows? I have seen these nipples on other FEs but mostly pre-'65. I think heater cores got stronger in the late '60s. Not saying these didn't exist, but I just never seen one on Windsor or 385 engines. The hole is choked down to 1/4".
(http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7641.0;attach=31158;image)
Yes, that is OEM and THANX for bringing it to attention. I had no idea one existed.
PN is C1AF 18599-A if one is lucky enough to find one NOS or take-off. It was used on the SPEC ENGINES only.
Quote from: KULTULZ on 2020-12-31 09:49
It was used on the SPEC ENGINES only.
What is a SPEC ENGINE?
Quote from: terry_208 on 2020-12-31 12:51
What is a SPEC ENGINE?
FORD termed their HP FE Engines SPECIAL in cataloging in the sixties. They are much different from the 352/390 street engines. Used unique parts. A way to differentiate for PARTS/SERVICE.
usually painted black...289 HiPo. 427, 390 HP, 406...rumor or truth?
Here is a period FE color chart -
http://www.galaxieclub.com/Colors.html
Gary, fyi 289hp engines starting in 63 thru 65 in Fairlanes were black, in 63,64, air cleaners were gold, 65 chrome, in 63,64, valve covers were gold,65 were chrome. Mustangs 289hp engines were black in 64 1/2, 65, blue in 66,valve covers and air cleaners were chrome. I've been a member of the Fairlane Club since 83 almost since the beginning, my membership number is 49. I have owned four k code Fairlanes, two 64 sport coupe's, one 65 F/L 500, one current 63 sport coupe, and way back a 63 non hp e/mp drag car. JV
This is slightly off topic, but the same fix, I raced dirt cars in the 70's, 80's, 90's,, In the early years we ran a 5/8 restrictor in the thermostat housing. We were trying to keep the water in the radiator longer, Mark
Just take the flapper off a thermostat, easy and cheap.
Ron.