Hello all, we are Larry and Lynn Slevin. Both of us recently joined the forum as we have acquired two 1957 Fords. One is a Country Sedan resto mod, the other is a Blue and White Sunliner!!!! See attached pictures!!! The sunliner just came to us a week ago and has some minor issues. It has an Edelbrock carb on it and it does not want to work correctly. Thinking of getting a new Holley and putting it on. Anybody have some suggestions on this type of issue? Also, we need a dipstick tube. I have seen a couple of reproductions but wonder how well they fit. We are looking forward to driving our cars and becoming active on the Forum!!! Thank you and nice meeting you all!!!
Welcome! Beautiful 57's!
welcome guys !
Great to see a lady driver and 57 owner too!
Wow, those are beauties! I also have a Country Sedan here in Europe.
Let us see what you have on the engine. I usually have made good experience with the Carter/Edelbrock carbs, maybe yours is just too big, too small, or of the wrong application. Please specify the engine and the carb # that is stamped into the carb base.
I knew Gunther wpuld be all over this post! LOL!!! Someone else to talk Country Sedans with! :003:
Welcome Larry and Lynn. Lots of guys here can help out with pretty much any issue you may stumble upon down the road. Best thing is...they LOVE to help out. Enjoy...and again...welcome aboard! :006:
Hi guys, what a nice pair of cars. I've had both Holley and Edelbrock carbs on my 302s. They are all in the 600 cfm range. I just love the Edelbrock 1406. Right out of the box it just works. My Ford Racing crate engine came with a 570 cfm Holley Avenger. It was okay, but I did replace it with a Edelbrock 1406.
I imagine either one will give you what you need.
Welcome
Welcome. A couple of nice looking cars you have there.
Welcome Lynn and Larry!! Both beautiful cars. We love pics, so show us some more.
Welcome guys to the best in the world board!
Really nice cars, as Rich says we LOVE PICS.
I hope you find this place as warm, welcoming and family safe as the rest of us have. No such thing as a dumb question, many of us have been there. Many have shared their experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly, without fear of ridicule (except suggesting a SBC in one of our cars) and treat them as learning experiences.
Thank you all for the kind words. We recently sold a Talladega and a 1969 SCJ Fairlane Cobra. We decided to move in a completely new direction for our hobby!!! So far we love it. The number on the front of the card is 14062303. I have had a lot of Holley's but never an Edelbrock before. Pictures coming shortly.
Here are some pictures of the engine and carb. The issue we are fighting is erratic idle. Sometimes it is smooth as silk...other times it will not run at all. In fact once the engine is hot the car will not restart without a "cooling off" period. There is no apparent reason for this behavior. I did notice the vacuum advance line from the distributor is hooked into the front of the carb. Could this whole thing be a vacuum issue? Thank you for reading
Here are some more pictures of the Sunliner
Here are some images of the resto mod wagon!!!!
Sounds a lot like the symptoms of vapor lock. A phenolic spacer between the intake and carburetor and there is also a fuel line wrap to keep the heat from your steel fuel line. If possible try and keep your fuel line away from your exhaust or other heat sources. It would cost more but running premium gas could help as it has less ethanol in it.
Nice cars by the way.
Welcome from north of the border. Good looking fleet.
What is your location?
Terry
:canada:
That wagon!Ahhhhhh! I'm in love!
I LOVE the Sunliner!!! And a Continental Kit to boot! I have such envy!
Checked I am sure the vacuum line to be sure it isn't dried out and brittle? No cracks? And as stated rm could be a vapor lock. Annoying to say the least.
The issues I've had, whether in my Bronco, Mustang or 57, was the gasoline would boil in the carb when engine was hot, then shut off. Restarts were a pain, but only in the heat of summer for me. I even tried phenolic spacers. The issue is the gasolines today are so different than years past, they boil easier. Changing to a new or different brand of carb may not necessarily fix this issue, it's heat, heat, heat.
I went to a Fitech EFI unit, no more issues.
sweet !!! wow a lot of work wenit into that wgn ! clened firewall and all. very nice interior ! loving the red cloth/white vinyl combo !
I believe the carb has vaccuum on the wrong intermediate vaccuum port. I have on the other (pssgr side) full port vaccuum!
if the Sunliner has the original distributor.....that can cause all kinds of erratic timing wandering and even engine stalling.
check for:
- loose pin of dizzy drive gear.
- worn ball bearing of breaker base plate
- loose or broken centrifugal advance springs.
I have had all three of those issues in 2 different engines. the 57 Distributor is not that bad a design, but things can wear out and cause problems.
a loose breaker plate bearing can be fixed with some small springs, pulling the base plate to one side.
imho. that carb is too big. 1408 is a 650 cfm right ?
I am running a 1403 ( 500cfm) on my stock 302 in the 34 and it runs and starts so much better than with the 650.
I also just recently bought another 500cfm 1403 that I plan to use on my bored 312 Y.
and check the original spark coil resistor. these are known to become brittle, wire breaking or coming lose from the terminal ( loose rivets), causing excessive resistance.
That interior in the Sunliner looks to good to be true ! Tremendous amount of style ! :004:
Thanks to all again for the kind words!!! More importantly the advice is well received. We will start breaking down the suggestions. It does have a spacer plate but as noted heat is always an issue. Fordman, you have given us much to think about. I would like to clarify your comments about the vacuum being on the wrong port. It is on the passenger side port. Do I misunderstand what you are telling me? Carb is a 1406, I think 600 cfm? I agree it might be too big. If we decide to try another carb, I am definitely going to go sub 600 cfm. Yes, the sunliner is a very pretty car. My wife, Lynn, just loves it. We had to install a new water pump. We also converted the generator to alternator. Was not charging. It is a factory AC car. Unfortunately nothing is in very good condition so we removed the compressor. What a hunk of iron!!!! I will post picture tomorrow. Also heater core is leaking so we need to do bypass that for now. In Florida, I think we can get by without it!!! Thanks again for the help.
Gunther (dj) is a pretty good guy to hit up about the 312 stuff. And if you read back through some of his project build stuff...you will see he has a lot of knowledge about the 57's and your wagon especially.
One of many here who will help you out...front bumper to back! :003:
Larry, yes I use the drivers side port for vaccuum!
and the large front middle port (manifold vaccuum) for the transmission.
I see you got some Vacc plumbing/hoses on the drivers side rear of valley cover/intake. is that a PCV hose setup and a T fitting? where is it going to? any of it maybe unused A/C lines ?
I believe Hugh mentioned to also check the vacc line fitting and advance unit. On my 292 Y block it was somewhat loose and caused errant vacc supply.
In any case you should use a timing (strobe) light on the pointer and it should give you some good information how good or not the distributor works, especially in hot idle situation. on my engine the worn distributor caused 10-15 degrees errant timing travel in idle. or over 30deg in another engine with a worn drive gear pin and centrifugal unit. checking and repairing these issues worked well on my engines. they are now back to steady idle and easy starting.
Guenter
I hope that Jim and other of our members will chime in, they have tremendous amount of Y block experience !
Wow, a Factory AC convertible, also power seat. Both very nice cars. Enjoy
Gunther, the hose section you see on the rear of the engine is a vacuum port split for the power brake booster and the AC system. Since we are not going to use the AC system we plugged that port and removed the hose to make sure no leaks we sneaking in the back door of the HVAC system!!!
We appreciate all of your ideas. One has paid off, the vacuum advance on the dizzy was way loose. I am sure it was floating around while the engine was under various loads. The timing is good but I do understand how touchy it can be. Have cleaned and checked all electrical connections, etc. All good. Right now it is dialed in pretty good. One thing I did not mention earlier is that this car had not be driven in a long time. Probably a couple of years at least based on what the previous owner told us. So, it does seem to be getting better each time we drive it.
One other issue is the idle speed on the carb. I am having a very difficult time getting it to idle down. I would like it to be at 800-900 RPM but can only get it in the 1100 range. Not terrible but I am concerned that I can not get the car lower??
Sorry to go on, but one more thing is the factory compressor we removed from the car...what a beast!!! I could not lift it out so we had to hook up the engine hoist to pick it up!!!! Here are a couple of pictures. Thanks for listening!!! Larry and Lynn
Welcome, great looking cars you and the wife have.
All the things Gunther mentioned about the ball bearing breaker plate or broke/worn advance springs are very good suggestions.
You can only accurately set the base timing at a lower RPM., at 1100 you maybe getting a false reading. and with the vacuum advance disconnected.
I can't tell by the pictures if there is a spacer between the carb and manifold. These larger CFM carbs have larger venturi and butterflies, the 57 manifold only have 1.5" holes so this mismatch may not let the butterflies completely close which maybe causing the high idle speed. I use a 390CFM Holley which has the 1.5" venturi that matches the manifold. I also use a 1.5" venturi phenolic spacer and that cures the carb percolation and hard starting when hot. Damn Ethonal fuel boils at lower temperatures. Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.
now we're talking, Jim has joined the conversation ! :003:
you have probably done that already, but after sitting for a long time, it would be recommended to drain the old fuel and use a fresh set of spark plugs.
What are you going to do with the AC compressor?
One thought: make sure the high idle isn't due to the choke step down idle adjustment.; not coming off its cold, high idle settting, once the choke opens up.
Well I think we finally have it dialed in. Yesterday our testing effort was cut short due to a heavy rain storm that lasted several hours. This morning we have tweaked and checked all of the great ideas you all suggested an I have my fingers crossed. It still idles a bit too high for my liking but we are happy for now.
I would like to clarify with Jim about the carb spacer. Yes, our car does havve about a 1/2-3/4" spacer. But are you saying your spacer is 1.5" high? I would like to take a look at your theory about the high idle. It does make sense about the hole diameters an I could see how that would impede proper idle adjustment.
Regarding the compressor, for now we are going to keep it. The heater core on the car is leaking badly so at some point we are going to need to address the HVAC system. Core is bypassed now. We are not sure whether we want to try to restore the original factory parts or just go with a new Vintage air system? Thanks again to all for the help. We are going to move onto a couple of other things so we will be back on the forum with updates. Larry and Lynn
The original factory AC is virtuously price less. Especially is you have the little tag that goes on the door. You can sell it for the price of an entire Vintage Air system and then some!
All the components that make up the system from the mount that holds the compressor and generator to the pulleys are gold to a restorer. The under dash unit is exclusive to the factory AC as is the dash temp controller and the windshield trim.
If you are not interested in a perfectly "restored" car carefully remove all the AC stuff and put it out there. It will be snapped up yesterday! I sold a complete factory AC system taken out of a rusted in half 300 (same system as your 500) and paid for my Ranchero and over half the replacement sheet metal from EMS.
Hi Larry,
If you have a carb spacer you shouldn't have a problem. The interference problem occurs when people bolt the carb directly to the manifold. My spacer is 1/2" thickness, the four holes are 1.5" so it matches the manifold and the carb venturi size. If you remove your carb some day you will see the spacer holes are bigger then the manifold holes, this leaves a mismatch between the two but that won't cause a problem that you are having. Some people machine the manifold holes to the larger size to match the spacer/carb venturi size, mostly on hipo engines and not really necessary on a street motor.
Good suggestion made about the choke setting by FDLRC. Have you tried disconnecting the trottle linkage from the carb, maybe something hanging up or out of adjustment?
It was a good suggestion!!! It is free and clear once the chole comes off. Good thoughts about the AC system. I figured it would be worth a bit but not like you said!! We will definitely make it available if we decided not to use it.
great info about the throttle interference, Jim !
I will have to watch that as well, as I will be using the 1403 Edelbrock (Carter) on an og 312 intake.
Larry, concerning the heater . the problem most likely isnt the heater core ( which is readily available as a repro), but the adjacent thermostatic heater valve. it is a water valve that is actuated by a vaccuum powered thermostatic valve, which in turn is actuated by the dash knob. so it is kind of self adjusting temperature control. there are several potential leaking spots in the system, most of all a oval shaped rubber gasket between the heater core and water valve, which is prone to leaking. there are reproductions of the seal, water valve and thermostatic unit, and you frequently can find them NORS on ebay, also a Mercury valve might fit. here are some pics so you know what we are talking about.
I used parts of the riginal and parts of a halfways faulty NORS unit, welded together and working. :003:
BTW a vaccuum leak at the heater valve could also cause your errant idle.
the heater is quite servicable, so no reason to throw it out.
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Gunther, thank you that is a great piece of information!!! Please see the attached photos of the heater box and blower motor in the car. At this point I am not prepared to tear into these areas. In fact, I can not see the termination point of the heater hoses or the valve system you show. When we are ready, this information will help a lot. In the meantime is the heater valve accessed through the firewall or under the dash?
Regarding the vacuum leak potential I did figure on that possibility and have disconnected the HVAC vacuum system and plugged the port on the manifold for now.
Do you and Jim believe that a smaller carb will work better on the stock 312 engine? If I need to get a new carb, I would like to have something that supports the application. It sounds like you guys believe in the small CFM? Thanks Larry and Lynn
Sorry having trouble with files
I asked about the compressor because I have a 57 Country squire with Factory AC. ( sold new here in San Diego) All of the under dash stuff is there, but missing compressor.
Larry I believe your pics are too large for attaching. you either need to downsize the files or use an upload site like imgur. Joe wrote a tutorial on that here:
http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=7624.0 (http://57fordsforever.com/smf/index.php?topic=7624.0)
Concerning the heater, I forgot to mention there are 2 different heaters. one is a factory install ( like the one I posted, and yes it is accessed from the passenger side under dash. you can unbolt the heater housing cover and will get access to the valve).
there is a second, different heater system that was a dealer install. it also has a different dash switch. actually looking at your firewall I believe it looks like this second dealer install. or maybe because yours is an og factory A/C car. I am sure some of the guys have this on their cars and they will be able to answer your questions.
NICE!!! Welcome from Minnesota!
Just my opinion but I feel most people over carb. Unless you plan on driving at 5000 rpm and 100+ mph you don't need a big CFM carb. Stock Y block volumetric efficiency isn't that great, I forget the numbers but it shown at best it can only use somewhere around 400 CFM. I like the smaller carbs, better low end torque and response. It all depends on what you are going to use the car for, I assume it will be a cruiser and not a racer. My Y block preforms just great with the 390 CFM with the normal driving I do up to 70 mph. Under normal driving the secondaries never open, only when I really stick my foot in it do they open. A few occasions I've run it up to 95 but my lower gearing holds it back from going faster.
No carb is going to be tuned exactly to your engine out of the box, there are to many variables. When I first installed mine it had a very slight miss at cruising speed and required going up one main jet size, easy to do on a Holley. I've good reports from people using the new Summit carbs, just another option.
My engine is a 292, if it was a 312 like yours I would probably use a 465 CFM..
Trying again
Gunther I have loaded the blower motor (under hood) photo. I believe this is what you are describing as #2 in your post. Thanks for the info.
Regarding carb size I agree with using the smaller cfm. We have no desire to do anything but drive this car normally as a cruiser. So, I may downsize. I want to try a "tune up" as suggested. We have no idea how long it has been or the condition of points, spark plugs, etc. Can't hurt.
Again we appreciate all the positive comments and advice. Getting there is half the fun...at least that is what I keep telling myself!!!! Ha Ha.
There are three different heaters in 57. With the factory a/c ALL the heater parts are different. If you are not going to use the factory a/c I would buy a complete non a/c heater for it.
You have to pull the housing to change the heater core, the a/c heater core is different and very hard to find. Probably could be recored by a good radiator shop.
The factory a/c cars have a long, long list of different parts than non a/c cars from engine pulleys to dash parts, just so you know if you have to change anything.
Carpenter's sells all the rubber seals for a/c-heater systems, I'd change them while it is apart.
I researched the a/c for my car a few years ago since I had not even seen a factory a/c 57 until, like you I bought one!
Good luck,
Ron B.
Just looked at your 57 pic's again. Looks great, a super restoration! A lot of time and dollars went into it. A stick with A/C convertible is indeed a rare car. A few things I noticed, the blower motor and housing are factory a/c parts. It would have had a three sheave pulley on the crank, two sheave on the waterpump and generator. Looks like it still has the group 27 battery box.
Goodluck,
Ron.
Great info !
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2020-07-25 21:02
There are three different heaters in 57. With the factory a/c ALL the heater parts are different. If you are not going to use the factory a/c I would buy a complete non a/c heater for it.
You have to pull the housing to change the heater core, the a/c heater core is different and very hard to find. Probably could be recored by a good radiator shop.
The factory a/c cars have a long, long list of different parts than non a/c cars from engine pulleys to dash parts, just so you know if you have to change anything.
Carpenter's sells all the rubber seals for a/c-heater systems, I'd change them while it is apart.
I researched the a/c for my car a few years ago since I had not even seen a factory a/c 57 until, like you I bought one!
Good luck,
Ron B.
Ron, that is great info!!! We need to decide how we want to restore the HVAC system. For now we will just enjoy the car and deal with improvements later. Thanks again for all your help.
Larry and Lynn
Welcome, and as said already; Beautiful 57's!!!!
Larry and Lynn, If you haven't already you need to purchase every manual for the vehicles. The 57 Ford manual has a great section on the air conditioning system. The fiber parts of the "box" are irreplaceable, they need to be handled with care. Most all the internal parts are available in one form or the other. The seals are out there as well. Carpenter has almost everything in the line of seals. Good luck with it.
Hello All. This is Larry and Lynn updating you on our struggles. It has been about 6 weeks since we posted and we have had a very interesting time chasing all the ideas and issues we raised in the previous posts. We are proud to say, we declare the 57 convertible fixed and ready to go!!! Along the way we fixed several small things and a couple of big ones but the main problem turned out to be engine timing. We finally totally disregarded the timing marks on the balancer and started over. We found the true TDC and discovered that the distributor was about 4-5 teeth out of time (retarded). This was consistent with where we discovered the real TDC to be on the pulley. So, we are confident we now have a safe reliable car and it is going to its first Florida car show tomorrow. Thanks again to all of your comments and suggestions!!! We are going to enjoy the car for the upcoming car show season. Florida is backwards and has all the shows in the winter and spring. Next summer we are going onto upgrading and improving some things. Please keep in touch and we will do the same.
Ah...a touch of excessive retardation...kinda like me in some of my projects. Eventually all works out...but WOW...does the Bayer company make some change in the process!!!
Congrats! Enjoy that cruiser!!! :wave:
Those are great news ! Its always difficult to find a problem that somebody else did wrong a long time ago.
Now we all want to see some shiny pics of the Sunliner at some cool Florida events and a few trophies inbetween ! :002: :003:
Enjoy !